Vol. 470 No. 7
34 Miss Harney asked the Minister for Defence the plans, if any, he has to review the spouses and childrens pension scheme which was established in 1978, in relation to the widows and discharged members of the Defence Forces who opted out of this scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19915/96]
46 Mr. O'Malley asked the Minister for Defence the plans, if any, he has to review the spouses and childrens pension scheme which was established in 1978, in relation to the widows and discharged members of the Defence Forces who opted out of this scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19917/96]
50 Mr. Clohessy asked the Minister for Defence the plans, if any, he has to review the spouses and childrens pension schemes which was established in 1978, in relation to the widows and discharged members of the Defence Forces who opted out of this scheme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19919/96]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 34, 46 and 50 together.
Provision for the payment of pensions by the Department of Defence to the widows and children of deceased soldiers was first made in 1978 when a contributory pension scheme for those dependants was introduced. Soldiers serving at the time were included as members of the scheme unless they made a positive option in writing not to become members. Benefits under this scheme are additional to the survivor's contributory pension under the Social Welfare Acts for which soldiers are insured by virtue of their PRSI contributions.
In 1985 a second opportunity to make provision for their dependants was granted when all soldiers — as well as pensioners and the representatives of deceased soldiers — who had opted out of the scheme in 1978 were invited to reconsider their decision and to join a revised scheme. Unfortunately, not all availed of this option.
At this stage, all soldiers who were serving when the original scheme was introduced in 1978 have had two opportunities to join the scheme. The question of again reopening membership options has been considered on a number of occasions over the past few years but I regret that it has not been found possible to make any concession. In this regard, I should say that there would be implications for many other public sector areas if membership options were reopened in respect of the Defence Forces' scheme.
Is there a precedent in any other section of the public service where people who opted out of pension schemes were allowed back in?
I am not aware of any. Unfortunately, when this option was provided in 1985 not everybody took it up. I cannot answer for other sectors of the public service. If this was to be reopened it could have a knock-on effect on the public sector. Some of those who have been contributing since 1978 and those who joined in 1985 will be annoyed and could argue that their contributions should be refunded because others who join now will get the same benefit. There are a number of issues to be considered but the gratuity of one year's salary for death in service applies to all members.
How many people did not opt for either scheme?
It is estimated that of a strength of 13,100 enlisted personnel in early 1978, about 7,700 opted out of membership of the contributory scheme. There are about 1,600 serving soldiers who are not currently members of the scheme.
In rectifying the problem, will the Minister ensure that the terms and benefits of the scheme and the problems associated with not joining are again made available because there are still significant numbers outside both schemes?
This was a matter for individuals to decide and there is no guarantee that everybody would join even if it could be reopened.
I not am talking about reopening it but the benefits of being in the scheme should again be notified to the 1,600 individuals.
If they are not in?
How many people opted for the 1985 scheme? If a precedent was set that year, why does the Minister or the Government not offer a similar option to the 1,600 who have not yet opted in? I ask the Minister to bear in mind the special service given by men serving in the Defence Forces. There is agreement that another opportunity should be given to those men since the number has reduced to 1,600.
I do not know the exact number who joined in 1985 but a large number still chose not to join.
The 1985 precedent is there. Why not do it again?
There are ongoing problems with regard to other knock-on effects in the public sector.
That could have been said in 1985 as well.
It is getting worse every year. By chance, most of the people who join now are bad risks because they could have done so in 1978 or 1985. In insurance terms, that could have a serious effect on the fund.
I do not accept that. They are older now.
It is a reality and there is still no guarantee that there would——
It is a "Noonanese" type comment to say they are bad risks.
The Deputy knows from his term as Minister for Defence that great lengths were gone to in encouraging people to join. I feel sorry for the widows who suddenly discovered that their husbands had opted out.
The Minister has a precedent. It was done in 1985 and if he wanted to, he could do it.
I met a number of the widows involved and had much correspondence with the Minister's predecessor. Many of them did not realise that their husbands had opted out and had no part in the opt out. Their husbands did it without telling them and it was a great shock to them when they became widows to find out they were not part of the scheme. It varied from commander to commander in each barracks as to who joined. One man who is now a colonel paraded his brigade daily until everybody joined. One person claims that her husband was a chef in the cooking corps which did not parade and did not know about the scheme. There is a relatively small number of widows caught in this situation. Nobody expects that they will qualify for full pension but there is a case for giving them some form of ex-gratia payment so that they are not relying on the ordinary widow's pensions after the long years of service their husbands have given to this nation.
Agreement on all sides of the House.
I point out to the Deputies that soldiers serving at the time this scheme was introduced were included as members of it unless they made a positive decision in writing not to become members of it.
We know that. We are trying to change that.
The Minister should make a name for himself.
A positive decision was taken in this regard as distinct from people not knowing about it. Some people demanded that deductions cease because they did not authorise them. One must accept that this money was deducted from a soldier's pay and if a soldier demanded that deductions cease, one had no option but to do that.
What about the 1985 decision?
Having spent a good deal of my life in the insurance business, I feel very sorry for widows whose husbands took a positive decision to opt out of the scheme. Another opportunity was given in 1985 and various Ministers, long before I took office, examined this. The reality is that if this was opened up at this stage, it would have a knock-on effect across the public service. It is not just a matter for the Defence Forces.
[Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.]
