Joe Walsh
Ceist:16 Mr. J. Walsh asked the Minister for Social Welfare the amount claimed by or paid to date to solicitors in respect of work carried out in relation to the payment of equality arrears; and the names of such solicitors. [22381/96]
Priority Questions. - Equality Arrears Payments.
The total value of bills in respect of legal costs from solicitors acting on behalf of married women who have initiated legal proceedings arising from the delay in according them equal treatment under the Equal Treatment Directive in cases in which costs have been paid to date is £4.4 million. The amount paid in these cases following negotiations by the Chief State Solicitor and in some instances, on adjudication by the Taxing Master, which include two cases in which a further balancing payment may have to be made, is £2.308 million.
Arising from the delay in implementing the Directive, legal proceedings were initiated in 500 cases involving more than 16,000 plaintiffs and the entitlements of the majority of married women involved have been determined under the arrangements which I introduced in 1995 to give full effect to the High Court decision of 3 February 1995. Prior to that, however, settlements were made in a number of cases during the period 1991 to 1994 — the Deputy is aware I was not the Minister concerned — which were subject to conditions as to confidentiality and I have been advised that because of the terms upon which these cases were settled, I should not, without their consent, make known the names of the solicitors involved in these cases. There are 12 such solicitors who received costs of £1.58 million covering 60 cases involving 2,900 plaintiffs. There are 52 cases in which legal costs have been paid in which this legal difficulty does not arise, however, and following is a tabular statement detailing the amounts paid in respect of legal costs and the names of the solicitors involved in these cases, which involved varying numbers of plaintiffs.
I am anxious to make known as much detail as I can in relation to the payment of legal costs in the interests of proper management of public funds and the protection of Exchequer interests. In this latter context details of all payments made to solicitors in respect of legal costs and the names of the solicitors involved, including those I am not at liberty to name, are subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General in line with normal practice.
Tabular Statement of Costs Paid to Solicitors
|
Solicitors Names |
Legal Expenses |
|
Murrough O'Rourke Solr. |
191.50 |
|
Eugene Murphy & Co. |
14,588.23 |
|
Burke & Co. (Kerry) |
9,187.58 |
|
(Two cases paid separately) |
5,659.64 |
|
Desmond P. Flynn & Co. |
6,663.58 |
|
Anthony & Associates Solrs. |
5,365.25 |
|
Hinkson Solicitors |
1,909.50 |
|
O'Donovan Solicitors |
298,299.82 |
|
Andrew Dillon & Co. |
4,511.08 |
|
Don Ryan & Co. |
7,343.33 |
|
Michael O'Dowd Solr. |
7,157.92 |
|
Keaveney Walsh & Co. |
4,659.21 |
|
James H. Mackey & Co. |
655.32 |
|
(Two cases paid separately) |
655.32 |
|
James O'Mahony & Co. |
|
|
(One payment in respect of two cases) |
15,878.63 |
|
Tynan & Walsh Solicitors |
1,167.42 |
|
Shannons |
5,603.38 |
|
M.J. Horgan & Co. |
25,096.49 |
|
Cullen, Tyrrell & O'Beirne Solrs. |
7,759.26 |
|
Houlihan McMahon Solrs. |
4,451.15 |
|
(Two cases paid separately) |
13,723.99 |
|
Ernest J Cantillon & Co. |
18,812.27 |
|
Killeen Solicitors |
|
|
(One payment in respect of five cases) |
23,630.15 |
|
Murphy & Condon Solicitors |
12,677.21 |
|
(Two payments in respect of three cases) |
84,700.00 |
|
Carvill & Co. |
|
|
(One payment in respect of two cases) |
4,472.60 |
|
Ahern, Roberts, O'Driscoll Solrs. |
10,866.10 |
|
Bernard Gaughran & Co. |
38,617.48 |
|
Barry, Hickey & Henderson Solrs. |
3,495.25 |
|
Ann L. Horgan & Co. |
16,650.08 |
|
(Two cases paid separately) |
6,044.04 |
|
Daly, Lynch & Crowe Solrs. |
1,582.50 |
|
Séamus Maguire & Co. |
|
|
(One payment in respect of two cases) |
2,264.68 |
|
O'Shea Russell Solrs. |
5,400.70 |
|
Paul F. Diamond & Co. |
4,352.03 |
|
Brophy Solrs. |
2,070.42 |
|
D.C. Shaw & Co. |
7,055.25 |
|
Brian J. Chesser & Co. |
2,032.82 |
|
John Gaynor & Co. |
1,480.00 |
|
Niall J. Walsh & Co. |
9,213.16 |
|
John Glynn & Co. |
|
|
(One payment in respect of three cases) |
24,735.78 |
|
Thomas O'Dwyer & Co. |
3,055.27 |
|
Total |
723,735.39 |
I raised this matter on a number of occasions in the public interest and to ensure accountability to the House in respect of taxpayer's money. It is unacceptable that substantial amounts of such money amounting to £2.3 million, have been paid out. However, we are now told we cannot ascertain who was allocated the sum of £1.5 million. The Minister said his legal advice precludes him from giving the House the details of the names. Is he in a position to publish this legal advice?
It is not normal practice to provide the legal advice concerned. The Computroller and Auditor General will have the opportunity to audit the expenditure in this case. It is not a question of the taxpayer or the administration being unaware of these solicitors. The Deputy was a part of the Government when these confidentiality clauses were sought and obtained. They were agreed prior to my becoming Minister. I objected to the fact that they were on a confidentiality basis when in Opposition. Nevertheless, as Minister, I am obliged to comply with the legal advice I have received.
I am in an invidious position regarding this matter. The Comptroller and Auditor General will have the opportunity to audit in full the amounts paid and will know the identities of the solicitors concerned. I have arranged for the solicitors concerned to be written to pointing to the position in which we find ourselves in this House and asking if they would be willing to waive the confidentiality clause. I am strongly advised this can be done only with their consent, that I am not in a position to do so unilaterally.
That is unsatisfactory. The names and amounts paid each year under the free legal aid scheme are included in official publications. While the term "openness, transparency and accountability" has been butchered out of all recognition, we are entitled to receive this information. On the amounts paid to individual solicitors — in one case £606,000 — has the Department carried out an audit to see if the taxpayer got value for money?
The decision as to the amount to be paid is not made by the Department of Social Welfare, rather it is made, in most cases, by the Chief State Solicitor's office and, where the Chief State Solicitor's office or the solicitor concerned is not satisfied, by the Taxing Master. The bills presented to the Chief State Solicitor's office amounted to £4.4 million. The amount agreed to be paid out was £2.308 million, giving a saving of more than £2 million. Significant savings, therefore, have been made through careful monitoring by the Chief State Solicitor's office and the Taxing Master. The Comptroller and Auditor General, whose office is responsible for ensuring all public expenditure is properly accounted for, will have full access to information on the amounts paid to solicitors, including those who decided to avail of the confidentiality clause, and the basis on which they were paid. I am sure he will publish a report on the matter in due course.
I will take the matter up with the Comptroller and Auditor General. On 16 October the Minister said that, as a result of departmental errors, overpayments amounted to a sum in the region of £500,000 and that a review was being carried out with a view to its recovery. What was the outcome of this review?
That is a separate and distinct question.
If the Deputy tables a question, I will have a reply prepared. Alternatively, I can supply the information by letter.