Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Dec 1996

Vol. 472 No. 6

Order of Business.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Quinn)

It is proposed to take No. 1, Report of the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs on Supplementary Estimates for Public Services [1996]; No. 2, Report of the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy on Supplementary Estimates for Public Services [1996]; No. 3, Report of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security on Supplementary Estimates for Public Services [1996]; No. 4, Report of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs on a Supplementary Estimate for Public Services [1996]; No. 12, Motion re. Leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 41]; No. 13, Estimates for Public Services [Votes 10, 13, 19, 20, 21, 30, 34 and 39 only]; No. 19, Universities Bill, 1996 — Second Stage (resumed).

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and Business shall be interrupted not later than 10.00 p.m.; (2) No. 12 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (3) No. 13 [Votes 10, 13, 19, 20, 21, 30, 34 and 39 only] shall be moved together and shall be decided without debate by one question; and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; (4) the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 19, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 9.45 p.m. tonight.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 47 — Motion No. 18 re. Establishment of Tribunal of Inquiry on Alleged Payments by Dunnes Stores Limited.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four matters to put before the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 12 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 19 agreed?

Mr. B. Ahern

On No. 19, we have reluctantly agreed to complete the Universities Bill tonight. The Whips agreed to this on the basis that the Government extended time. We have 17 speakers and I understand the Government has one. I assume our speakers will be able to make contributions tonight. We agreed to facilitate the Government on the basis that Committee Stage has to be debated next week. The Minister for Education should take note that this party, like almost everyone else, is opposed to this Bill. Perhaps between now and next week she will accept most of the 95 amendments put down by Fianna Fáil.

Last Wednesday night, when I was focusing on other matters, the Docklands Authority Bill was published. It is normally two weeks before Second Stage is taken. The party Whip told me yesterday that the Government wanted to take all Stages of this Bill tomorrow. I understand that was subsequently changed to the start of Second Stage. I and most of my colleagues have not read the Bill and I have had no opportunity to consult with people outside regarding the Bill. It is very technical and seems to try to change the Financial Services Centre, which has worked well. Will the Minister hold the Bill over for a week? A Bill like this deserves to be examined. If the Bill is fine, we will support it next week and it will proceed to Committee Stage.

Mr. Quinn

On the Second Stage of the Universities Bill, I understand from the Government Whip that the Government will accommodate the number of speakers Fianna Fáil are offering and there will be provision for the sharing of time. I appreciate the co-operation the Fianna Fáil Party has given on concluding Second Stage this evening.

I understand only Second Stage of the Docklands Authority Bill has been ordered for tomorrow. The Deputy's concerns have been expressed to the Minister involved and myself by his Whip and the party spokesperson for that legislation. I will ask the Whip to consider the Deputy's request. The Bill is familiar to a number of Fianna Fáil backbenchers and Front Bench spokespersons.

Miss Harney

Given that the then Government brought forward a Bill in this House in 1994 to provide for immunity for witnesses going before the Select Committee on Legislation and Security, does the Government intend to bring forward a similar Bill as regards the alleged payments by Dunnes Stores to ensure that those who are not Members of this House and the Seanad have immunity when they appear before that committee?

Mr. Quinn

I am not sure if my reply will answer the question posed by the Deputy but the House did pass the Second Stage of the compellability of witnesses Bill which would extend privilege to anyone coming before a committee of this House. The Bill rested for some time with the relevant committee of the House. A number of points were raised and have since been dealt with by the Government. The correct and comprehensive answer to the Deputy's question is that, if this House can enact that legislation as speedily as possible, the questions of privilege and indemnity can be properly dealt with in that context. It is a matter for the committee to decide when it wishes to proceed with Committee Stage of the compellability of witnesses Bill.

Miss Harney

I am delighted the Minister has finalised his amendments to this Bill which has been parked for a considerable time because there are objections by the DPP. Unless that Bill is passed before the Christmas recess, witnesses before the committee you, a Cheann Comhairle, will have to chair during your Christmas holidays will not have immunity. Therefore the committee will not be able to function. If the Government wants to obtain the truth of these matters, it will be necessary for a special Bill to be brought forward to give immunity so you can get on with your business during the Christmas recess.

Mr. Rabbitte

The sales start on Boxing Day.

Mr. Quinn

I have to reply to the particular twist the Deputy has inevitably put on my factual reply. The Bill in question passed Second Stage in this House and was with the relevant committee for almost a year, during which time that committee decided to investigate an array of issues surrounding the entire question. It was quite late this year, after August, when we received substantial suggestions for fundamental changes of almost a Second Stage nature. We considered those in due course and have given a response as we are required to do. The Government has in no way delayed the passage of this Bill. It is a matter entirely for the committee and consequently for this House to decide how quickly it wishes to proceed with that legislation. I am sure we will have the full co-operation of Deputy Harney's party in that regard.

Miss Harney

When will we see the Government amendments?

An Ceann Comhairle

We should not anticipate debate on this matter.

Miss Harney

Can they be published so we can proceed?

An Ceann Comhairle

This evening we will discuss the establishment of the tribunal of inquiry on this subject. Is the matter of the proposal for dealing with No. 19 agreed?

Mr. B. Ahern

It is agreed on the basis that the Minister will facilitate us on the other Bill.

Mr. Quinn

It is agreed on the basis that Fianna Fáil will be facilitated as much as possible. I understand there is one Government speaker. If the Opposition is prepared to share the rest of the time, the order will stand that the vote will take place not later than 9.45 p.m.

Mr. Martin

On No. 19——

An Ceann Comhairle

I thought the matter had been resolved by the Deputy's leader and the Minister.

Mr. Martin

As spokesperson, I want to make the point that we reluctantly agreed to facilitate the Government on the Universities Bill. Will the Minister give a commitment that there will be no attempt to guillotine this Bill on Committee Stage?

Mr. Dukes

Deputy Martin said that better than Deputy Bertie Ahern.

Mr. Martin

The Bill has been treated in a shabby manner in this House. It has been a backup Bill for almost eight weeks, with about two hours allowed for debate in certain weeks.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin is embarking on a speech. We are now dealing with matters appertaining to the Order of Business.

Mr. B. Ahern

Does the Minister agree that the outcome of yesterday's Anglo-Irish summit was very unsatisfactory and disappointing? Has the Government any proposals to overcome the impasse whereby the British Government will not give a timetable or a date in any form and the IRA will not move from its position regarding a ceasefire? During the short debate on this issue last week the Taoiseach said that if it was unsatisfactory he would indicate it in the House this week. Perhaps the Minister is in a position to state the proposals the Government has to try to overcome what is now a dangerous and difficult impasse.

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter is not strictly relevant but if the Minister wishes to reply he may.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach will be answering questions tomorrow in the House on the issue of Northern Ireland and the Deputy will have a full opportunity to put whatever questions he has in that regard. All of us in this House share a concern about making progress on this complex issue but I do not want to pre-empt in any way what the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste might say tomorrow.

Mr. B. Ahern

If the Minister is not able to answer my last question, perhaps he will agree that the Book of Estimates which he published yesterday is a reckless example of trying to run the economy.

Mr. Durkan

Lessons in recklessness.

An Ceann Comhairle

There will be ample time to discuss the Estimates.

Mr. B. Ahern

In fairness the Minister for Finance does not often get an opportunity to take the Order of Business. Perhaps on this occasion he would like to explain how he could exceed the 1996 Book of Estimates by 8 per cent, how he could spend £1,100 million more, how he spent three times the level of inflation and how the finances are out of control.

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise now, it is not relevant to the Order of Business. Doubtless this House will have ample time to deal with the Finance Bill.

Miss Harney

The Taoiseach gave an undertaking in this House that amendments would be brought forward to the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Bill to provide for the Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions to come before committees. The reason the Bill could not proceed was that those amendments had not been brought forward and, as we understood it, there was an objection from the Director of Public Prosecutions. Can I take it from what the Minister has said that that matter has been resolved and the Taoiseach will be in a position to bring forward those amendments so that the Bill can proceed?

Mr. Quinn

Subject to confirmation which I will get for the Deputy and the House, my understanding is that three weeks ago we cleared at Government the relevant amendments and our position in relation to a number of other proposals. I presumed that those amendments had been communicated in the normal way to the committee which has the Bill, but it has not ordered it for business as such. I will find out if the amendments in question have been circulated and, if not, I will ensure they are circulated forthwith.

Mr. Cowen

Will the Minister for Finance explain why, since the rainbow coalition Government came into office, gross spending is up 20 per cent and £2,000 million more of taxpayers' money is being spent this year?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot debate the Book of Estimates now. If there is no other relevant matter on the Order of Business I will proceed to the business of the House.

Mr. Cowen

How are taxpayers to get the sort of safeguards this Government promised?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am proceeding to the business of the House.

Mr. Cowen

It is a cynical exercise that will be exposed. I looked forward to this Minister standing over and defending the programme for Government. It is being thrown out the window to save his own skin.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Cowen, you may not interrupt any further, I have heard enough from you.