It is proposed to take the report from the Select Committee on Legislation and Security on the Civil Liability (Amendment) Bill, 1996 [Seanad]; No. 5, Control of Horses Bill, 1996, amendments from the Seanad; and No. 6, Registration of Births Bill, 1996 [Seanad], Second and Remaining Stages. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; the proceedings on No. 5, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. and any amendments from the Seanad not disposed of shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry; the proceedings on the Second and Remaining Stages of No. 6, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 9.45 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform. Private Members' Business shall be No. 47, motion No. 18 re. establishment of tribunal of inquiry on alleged payments by Dunnes Stores Limited (resumed) and the proceedings thereon shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
There are four matters to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 5 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 6 satisfactory? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with Private Members' Business satisfactory? Agreed.
I thank the Minister for Finance for interceding yesterday to resolve the problems encountered in dealing with the Dublin Docklands Development Authority Bill, 1996. I understand the House will sit earlier on Tuesday to deal with it. That is satisfactory and appreciated. In light of the commitment in the programme for Government to put structures in place and provide funding to deliver effective and accountable local government, when can we expect to see the Government's proposals and any legislation necessary dealing with the funding of local government?
Work is at an advanced stage. We expect to see proposals within the next month or so.
Will legislative or administrative proposals be sent to the local authorities?
Any legislative provisions consequent on the proposals will follow with promptitude.
I do not know what the secret is. I am sure the Taoiseach knows if there are legislative proposals. Will they form part of or be published in advance of the budget? We are only three weeks away from the start of the new financial year and councillors throughout the country are dealing with the issue of local authority finances for 1997. This is a matter of great importance to the local administrative system.
They have already been dealt with.
The Deputy is behind the times.
A major reform of local government is being undertaken in respect of its functions, internal functioning, democratic mandate and how this is expressed. We are also dealing with the issue of its financing. A combination of administrative and legal changes may flow from this. The Government first has to decide on the policy issues involved. We expect to do this very soon. Any administrative or legal changes which flow from them will be carried through with speed. As the Deputy correctly said, the Government has made local government reform one of its priorities. It is one of the key elements of the programme for Government on which it will deliver.
Will the proposals apply to the 1997 financial year?
We are fully conscious of the position of local authorities and when making decisions we will take into account the present position in regard to current year funding as well as that of future years.
The Taoiseach should answer the question.
The decisions have not yet been made.
I wish to raise the compellability of witnesses legislation. As the Taoiseach is aware, a committee of this House cannot carry out an effective inquiry unless that legislation is passed. When I raised this matter yesterday with the Minister for Finance and said that this Bill is still in committee because the Government did not bring forward amendments he said I was putting a twist on it, but that was not the case. I checked with the committee and the Bills Office and was told that the Government amendments have not been brought forward. When will we see them? In the meantime will the Government put in place proposals to ensure that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, which will inquire into the allegations relating to Dunnes Stores, can carry out an effective inquiry?
The Government presented this Bill to the House and to the committee, and the committee decided it wished to raise a number of new questions about possible further changes to the Bill. These are in the form of a report, based on consultancy or advice taken by the committee. The proposals from the committee were very seriously considered and the Government amendments, which are being prepared and which I hope will be ready before Christmas, represent a response to suggestions by the committee. The Bill could have been enacted in its original form more quickly, but the committee, quite properly, believed it should undertake a thorough review of the issue and made further proposals. Those proposals have been considered by the Government whose response will be in the form of amendments which we expect to present before Christmas.
When the Minister for Finance told the House yesterday that the Government cleared its amendments more than three weeks ago was that an inaccurate statement?
No, the Deputy may not take that as an inaccurate statement. The Government cleared the policy questions underlying the amendments three weeks ago. Those amendments, which are highly complex, have to be drafted in a form which is robust and sustainable from the point of view of the working of a committee which must exercise the powers conferred on it. As the Deputy is aware from the preparation of legislation, there are two processes, the policy issues are decided in the form of policy questions and then drafting takes place. The Minister for Finance referred to the fact that policy decisions were taken on the submission from the committee on all the issues. There were no policy questions to be decided, we have decided the nature of the amendments to be introduced. They are being drafted by the draftsman and I hope they will be ready before Christmas.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that until the legislation is introduced a committee of this House cannot carry out an effective inquiry or summon anyone who is not a Member of the House to appear before it to give evidence?
As a result of the In Re Haughey case, committees of this House do not have power to compel witnesses. Even though that has been the case since 1970, while all parties were successively in Government, it was never dealt with. It is now being dealt with. While I fully understand the Deputy's impatience, it is important to recognise that this problem has existed all the time she has been in the House, including the time she was in Government.
Let us not attempt to debate the matter now.
Does the Government believe that new legislation is necessary, or has the Taoiseach proposals to deal with the matter of contract killings? There have been 14 such killings as well as one in recent days and none of the people who perpetrated those crimes has been apprehended. Is the Government considering this matter? Obviously existing legislative measures are not successful and the Garda is unable to come to grips with a very frightening development, mainly in city areas. It is of grave concern that so many people are being gunned down in broad daylight as well as at night.
The problem is one of organised crime. The legislation passed by this House, to which the Opposition contributed during the summer, is part of a very effective package of legislation put in place to deal with organised crime. Highly professional people administer that legislation and if they advise us that further powers are needed over and above the extensive powers that already exist, they will be provided as a matter of priority. When next weekend's summit of EU leaders is reported on in the public press Deputies will see that organised crime, within the country concerned and cross-border, is a matter of grave concern in every country in Europe. It is a high priority issue for political action at every level. No state can cope with it on its own; we intend to act together as a European Union to deal with the matter.
I am of the same view as the Taoiseach on the confiscation of assets, but it appears that since the legislation was passed — I am not being critical since it is only a few months since it was passed — the concentration has been on a few people. Most of those involved in organised crime are well known in communities and the confiscation of assets of a number of those people is probably the way to successfully deal with the matter. Perhaps the Taoiseach will use his considerable influence to get the authorities to focus on the people involved. Even before a person is shot the world knows the details, but there seems to be an inability to deal with the issues.
I understand the Deputy's point of view on the basis of media reports which highlighted one or two cases. The Deputy may have the mistaken belief that only one or two cases are being pursued, but the authorities concerned have very widespread use of the powers in hand in regard to a wide range of individuals who may be involved in organised crime. Naturally every action they take is not publicly reported because, as I am sure the Deputy will understand, prior public advertisement can serve the purposes of those seeking to evade the law.
I am informed only by reports in the public domain, some of which state that there are four gangs in this city, three of which are under investigation. In my constituency there are about 20 gangs which are well known and nobody is going after them.
The authorities do not confine their attention to three or four gangs, they are comprehensively dealing with the problem.
The Taoiseach said that there are complexities in the drafting of amendments on policy issues relating to the compellability of witnesses legislation. After all the protracted activity in committee and at Cabinet, will the DPP be compellable to appear before a Dáil committee?
The policy issues have been decided, there are no complexities in that regard. It is simply a question of drafting and that is proceeding as a priority. Our objective is to have the amendments before the committee before Christmas.
This year?
Of course. The objective is that they will be ready before the House goes into recess. On the content of the legislation, I will not give advance information about the amendments. They will be presented to the committee in the normal way as is proper.
The Taoiseach gave a clear commitment that the Bill would be amended to include the DPP, who was excluded from the legislation as presented to the House. Will the Taoiseach confirm that that amendment will be brought forward?
All the relevant matters have been dealt with in the preparation of the legislation. I will not give a preview, on a selective basis——
He is not included.
The Deputy should not draw any such inference of that nature.
So he is included.
Deputies should understand that the matter——
What is the big secret on this issue?
There is no great secret. Deputies will see the amendments before Christmas. I have no doubt that Deputy McDowell, as the best practised archangel of hindsight in this House, will look back on the past and find everyone other than himself was wrong about everything.
Where is the Taoiseach's pane of glass now? He cannot even answer a simple question.
The Deputy is a long way from Fianna Fáil.
The Deputy should relax. He will get the answer very quickly.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that the reason there is a delay in introducing the amendments to the compellability of witnesses Bill is because he hopes the controversy surrounding Deputy Lowry will disappear? Will the Taoiseach indicate when Deputy Lowry will give his explanation to the House?
I think Deputy Lowry should give an explanation soon to the House.
Deputy Shortall said that last night.
On promised legislation, the Government voted down a Private Members' Bill early in the year which would have enabled the cap on prizes given by charitable lotteries to be removed. The Taoiseach said he would take action when the report of the committee was available. That report has been laid before the House. Under the powers currently available, will the Taoiseach instruct the Minister to raise the limit from £10,000 to at least £100,000 per week, even on an interim basis, to allow charitable lotteries regain some of the moneys they have lost recently?
There are other ways of raising that matter.
It is a matter of promised legislation.
It seems to be very remotely removed from the Order of Business.
I beg your pardon, a Cheann Comhairle, this is a matter of promised legislation that has not been delivered.
The Deputy has made a long speech.
I think I can help the Deputy.
I want to be helpful to the Taoiseach.
Did the Taoiseach do the numbers?
In case Deputy McDowell wants to catch me out, I admit I bought a ticket on one occassion but I did not win anything. I feel quite badly about that, after everything I did to set up the lottery.
I bought one last Saturday and won £2.
To answer Deputy Woods's question, the advisory committee's report, which deals with the subject referred to by Deputy Woods, is being presented to the Select Committee on Legislation and Security on 14 January for a full discussion.
We can continue to have these global discussions into next year but will the Taoiseach do something now? Will he raise the limit by regulation to £100,000 and then consider removing the cap in the committee's discussions? The Taoiseach is procrastinating endlessly and these people are losing out.
The Deputy might put down a question on that matter.
Will the Taoiseach not do something for these people? It is Christmas time.
Deputy Woods, I have been on my feet for some time. The Deputy must resume his seat.
An Cheann Comhairle, the Taoiseach is consulting with the Minister for Finance. Will you give him a chance to do something for these people for Christmas?
To continue on the subject of charities, I want to ask the Taoiseach a question about promised legislation. The Minister of State at the Department of Justice recently gave a briefing to selected journalists outlining details of the new charities Bill. Might I be so bold as to inquire when those details will be made available to Dáil Éireann in legislative form?
Quicker than the Deputy will make them available.
That is wearing a bit thin.
The court jester.
The charities Bill will be introduced in the first half of 1997.
On a point of order, I put it to the Taoiseach that he told me on 12 October 1995 that this legislation would be introduced in the first half of 1996.
The Deputy can put it to me and he is probably right.
For the first time.
The position is that this legislation was related to and based in part on the study of the Costello committee report to which I referred in the context of Deputy Woods's question.
That is five years old.
This is complex and far-reaching legislation. I gave the Deputy the best information available to me at the time, which was not correct as it transpired, and I am sorry about that.
Is it correct this time?
I have given the House the information available to me now which is that it is the intention, having considered the relevant report, to have the Bill before the House in the first half of 1997.
The Taoiseach obviously believed what he was told.
That is not a guarantee. It is the best estimate I can give on the basis of the information supplied to me.
Something to look forward to.
I have noticed the Taoiseach is in some pain this morning with a back injury. Will he confirm that it is not as a result of his association with the Labour Party?
He is watching his back.
It is as a result of a mountaineering accident. I have been scaling the heights of Europe and I know the whole House supports me in this exercise. I get a warm feeling every time I come into the House. I know the House wants me to go even higher up in Europe.
Will the Taoiseach raise the limits on the prizes given by charitable lotteries?
A good idea.
The Taoiseach indicated on a number of occassions in the House that the equal status Bill would be published before the end of this session. This session ends next week. When will we see that legislation?
We hope that legislation will be published before the end of the session.
Does the Taoiseach intend to publish the legislation on decommissioning before Christmas? If so, can I assume we will not attempt to take it before Christmas as the two week rule would apply?
We will publish that legislation next week.
It is here, I have it. That is hindsight for you.
The Deputy will be an expert in that area.
He is right again.
In relation to the Taoiseach's comment that he hopes Deputy Lowry will make a personal statement in the House very soon, will he confirm there will be no opportunity to question any explanation given either in this House or in a committee?
The Deputy might answer a few questions. That would be interesting.
This matter might be pursued in another way.
The procedures concerning any statement by Ministers or Members about any matter of a personal nature are governed by Standing Orders which are made by this House. Obviously there may be other opportunities for further explanations. I have simply expressed the view that I hope such a statement will be made reasonably soon. That is as far as I can go at this juncture.
I do not want to take the Taoiseach down from the dizzy heights of Europe to consider a matter as mundane as potholes, but in reference to the earlier comment he made about local government reform and possible legislation in that area, has the Government considered the implications of the recent High Court decision in the Cavan pothole case which clearly lays an onus on the Government to provide sufficient finance to local authorities to enable them to discharge their statutory obligations?
There is a provision in the Estimates for an additional £20 million over and above last year's provision for county roads. I am sure the Deputy will welcome that heartily and will note the contrast between previous and present behaviour.
As far as the courts are concerned, the Deputy's party in office in 1961 enacted a section of the Civil Liability Act, 1961 which was never brought into force.
Order. I am proceeding promptly to the business of the House. We have devoted half an hour to miscellaneous matters.
The Taoiseach did not answer the question. The sum of £20 million will not be much good when what is needed is £5 billion.
Fianna Fáil created the potholes and we are filling them.
And Deputy Lowry fell into one.
The Opposition wants more spending and less spending, but it cannot have it both ways.
Arising out of the Taoiseach's reply to Deputy Dempsey's question, is he aware that during the week the county engineer in Cavan gave a figure of £40 million as being required to meet commitments in Cavan alone?
County roads were neglected for 20 years, from 1977 onwards.
They were neglected by all Governments. Fine Gael was in office during that time.
This is the first Government to do something serious about it. We realise that a total restoration of the county roads structure will cost about £1 billion, and it will take a lengthy period to provide that. However, we are dealing with it in a purposeful way.
It is not fast enough for the High Court.
Even the Deputies opposite, who are inclined to criticise on other matters, recognise that this Government is the best Government ever as far as county road restoration is concerned. Our record speaks for itself.
It is the Government of potholes.
Will the commitment in the document, A Government of Renewal, to provide resources for people with disabilities, particularly mental handicap, be honoured in 1997 by providing places for those who are currently denied?
The Deputy has been consistently raising that matter. I would welcome his raising it in a more structured form. My office will assist him in doing that.
I have taken the advice of the Chair to date. I have tabled questions to the Minister for Health and to the Minister for Finance but I am not receiving answers to my questions. Two thousand people are being denied services.
This is neither the time nor the manner in which to raise this question.
Would the Taoiseach agree that the real reason county roads are crumbling is that the Coalition Government of 1983-87 failed to invest in them?
The Deputy is wrong again.