Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1997

Vol. 475 No. 6

Other Questions. - Garda Deployment.

Denis Foley

Ceist:

7 Mr. Foley asked the Minister for Justice the number of gardaí in the force in Kerry Garda stations for each of the years from 1994 to 1996; the current personnel; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [3076/97]

The detailed allocation of Garda personnel and resources to individual areas is a matter for the Garda authorities. They have informed me that the Kerry Garda Division comprises four Garda districts namely, Tralee, Caherciveen, Killarney and Listowel. A total of 37 Garda stations are covered in those four districts.

The details sought by the Deputy are as follows:

Date

No. Gardaí

(all ranks)

31/12/1994

235

31/12/1995

231

31/12/1996

230

31/1/1997

231

The Garda authorities have informed me that they are satisfied that the current deployment of Garda personnel in the Kerry division is adequate in meeting its present policing requirements. However, they have assured me the situation will be kept under continuous review and changes made as necessary.

Can the Minister assure us that the level of gardaí in Kerry will be kept at around the 240 mark and that natural wastage in the force will not outstrip recruitment, as is the case elsewhere?

I do not assign gardaí. That is done by the Garda Commissioner and I am assured that the situation will be kept under continuous review and changes made as necessary. From 1994 to 1997 the numbers have stayed about the same, give or take two or three; the amount is usually between 230 and 235. When one sees a breakdown of the different districts it is much the same. I will pass on the Deputy's message that the Garda force should be kept to a maximum in Kerry to the Garda Commissioner.

I thank the Minister for her reply. As well as ensuring the adequacy of the Garda strength in Kerry, can she also give an assurance that no rural Garda stations will be closed down in the county as an extension of the rural community policing programme? Does she accept that the correct way forward is to expand that programme and keep the Garda stations open? The only way to achieve this is to increase recruitment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us not go beyond the bounds of the question before us.

The Garda Commissioner is satisfied that the provision of gardaí in Kerry is adequate and they keep the matter under review. I have been Minister for two years and the Deputy may not like to know that there has been a decrease in overall numbers of crimes committed of about 20 per cent between 1994 and 1996.

In 1994 1,897 crimes were committed in Kerry; in 1995, 1,697; and in 1996 there is a provisional figure of 1,536. The detection rate is 40.3 per cent for 1996 so the trend for Kerry is good.

I have no proposals to close rural Garda stations. The Deputy will know that rural policing started in June 1982, when his party was in Government, as a pilot scheme in three areas. In 1989 that was extended and again in 1991 to a further 12 areas. In 1994, before I became Minister, the then Commissioner presented a proposal that the scheme be extended to 12 more areas. I asked for more information and practice before I would consider such a proposal and the Commissioner is now in consultation with the 12 existing areas and those areas proposed for inclusion in 1994. I will make no decisions on the extension of rural community policing in Kerry or anywhere else until that consultation process has been finished and a report submitted to me.

I extend my deepest sympathy to the family of the young man found dead in Tralee yesterday. Does the Minister acknowledge that there has been an increase in the level of violent crime in Kerry? Tragically, there have been four murders there in the last year. Will she give an assurance that the full services of the State will be given to the investigating gardaí in this case? We must never again allow a body to lie exposed to the elements in a field for 24 hours to the great distress of the family and authorities concerned.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is outside the bounds of the question.

I join Deputy O'Donoghue in expressing my sympathy to the family of the young man tragically killed in Kerry. I cannot say anything until this investigation is complete but I assure the Deputy that all the resources are already available to the investigating authorities in this case, as they are in other cases such as the suspicious death in Galway within the last 48 hours. I cannot discuss details of a suspicious death until an investigation of it is complete.

Noel Dempsey

Ceist:

8 Mr. Dempsey asked the Minister for Justice if she will reply fully to Deputy Noel Dempsey's Parliamentary Question No. 208 of 3 December 1996 in view of the fact that Regulation 14 gardaí were used on the night of the riots in Lansdowne Road specifically and on a number of other occasions from Store Street and Pearse Street Garda stations for ordinary duties; and the reason she was unable to elicit this information from the Garda authorities for the original parliamentary question. [2832/97]

I would like to refer the Deputy to my reply to Parliamentary Question No. 208 of 3 December 1996 and to a further letter from my office dated 23 December 1996, which conveyed relevant details relating to his parliamentary question. This letter advised the Deputy that if specific examples and details were conveyed to me regarding situations in which Regulation 14 gardaí were allegedly engaged on ordinary Garda duties I would gladly have them investigated. My reply to Parliamentary Questions Nos. 156, 157, 166 and 173 of 10 December 1996 addressed the various situations where Deputies had concerns on this matter.

Regulation 14 of the Garda Síochána (Admissions and Appointments) Regulations, 1988, provides for the recruitment of persons having special technical qualifications to An Garda Síochána. The deployment of the force is the responsibility of the Garda authorities and they have informed me that members recruited under this regulation are not employed on ordinary duties, that is regular uniform duties. The Garda authorities provide training courses for all Regulation 14 members and, depending on the nature of their duties, they are trained in aspects of policing which their superior officers consider appropriate.

At the Ireland versus England soccer international in Lansdowne Road on 15 February 1995 the Garda authorities point out that members of the Garda Band, which has both Regulation 14 and other personnel attached to it, were on duty in their capacity as bandsmen. They assisted their colleagues during the riot at Lansdowne Road. However, none of the Regulation 14 members of the Garda Band were ordered to assist during the riot but most did so voluntarily.

The Garda authorities also inform me that 17 gardaí recruited under Regulation 14 for the Garda Band each gained three days' station experience as part of their induction training course. Fourteen were stationed at Store Street Garda Station and three at Pearse Street Garda Station. Their attendance at these Garda stations was solely as part of their initial training and they were at all times accompanied by experienced members from the stations concerned.

I am assured that the Garda Commissioner is satisfied with the level of training currently given to Regulation 14 gardaí and that this is sufficient to enable them to carry out their duties. However, as with all training needs, these are constantly evaluated and in-house courses are provided as necessary.

I thank the Minister for answering the question as she could not answer it when I raised it previously.

I answered it last time and followed it up with a letter.

I acknowledge that she followed it up with a letter which asked me to supply information to her about this matter. It is strange that the Minister could not elicit this information from the Garda authorities. The Minister is saying that Regulation 14 gardaí cannot be used for ordinary duties but can be used in extremely dangerous situations. Is she satisfied that this is the proper way to treat those gardaí?

I wish to correct a wrong impression given by Deputy Dempsey. His question of 3 December was general. He asked the number of times untrained regulation 14 gardaí were used for active duty in each of the years from 1994 to 1996 and the occasions on which they were used. It was a written question so three days were available to compile a reply. I said the deployment of the force is the responsibility of the Garda authorities and I was informed by them that the information sought by the Deputy in relation to the use of regulation 14 gardaí was not readily available. I also said I would arrange to forward the information to him as soon as it was gathered and processed. I did so but the question was not specifically about the use of regulation 14 gardaí.

Answer the question.

If that was the information the Deputy required, he should have asked me. However, he asked me about the general position over three years. Is the Deputy aware that regulation 14 gardaí are used as car mechanics and in the telecommunications area?

And the band.

They are also used in the band. The Deputy did not ask me about the band and I had to gather wider information.

I asked the Minister about regulation 14 gardaí.

I wonder how often previous Ministers replied as quickly as I did in this instance. I replied to the Deputy on 3 December, having said I would gather the information. I gathered it and gave it to him.

Perhaps the Minister should read the letter she sent me.

I asked him to let me know about other cases, if any, which were not covered by my reply. I am not sure he sent me anything after that.

The Minister asked me to supply her with the information.

I said if the Deputy had any further information. That is a valid request to the Deputy.

Answer the question.

The Deputy obviously did not listen to my reply. Regulation 14 gardaí are not used for ordinary duties and or in dangerous situations.

We know that.

I will repeat my reply: "However, none of the regulation 14 members of the Garda Band were ordered to assist during the riot but most did so voluntarily". I have a file from an individual garda, who in some letters but not in others asked me not to use his name. I will not give his name but he obviously wrote to a number of Deputies. I have a list of the Deputies who forwarded his letter to me with a covering note asking me to reply to it. Each of those Deputies received a reply from me and I have a list of the dates on which the replies were issued. This matter is obviously concerning an individual garda but, from the information supplied by the Garda Síochána, none of the regulation 14 members were ordered to assist. However, in that difficult situation, I imagine gardaí, regardless of whether they were regulation 14 members, probably voluntarily assisted,

Can the Minister imagine a superintendent telling a regulation 14 garda to get involved but him saying no?

Is the Deputy accusing the Garda Commissioner of lying because the information that none of them were ordered to get involved came from him?

We know what happened when the Minister took things at face value in the past.

If the Deputy is suggesting that the Commissioner is telling me an untruth, he should take the matter up with him. He is based in Garda headquarters in the Phoenix Park.

I know where he is.

The Deputy can go to the Commissioner and tell him that he does not believe the information he gave to me and that he is accusing him of being an untruthful man.

It would be like the information about the Garda situation in Navan when the Minister said everything was grand.

If the Deputy goes to the Commissioner and tells him that, it will be on his own head because this is the information supplied to me by the Garda Síochána. If the Deputy wants to make another case, he should go to the Commissioner and tell him he does not believe him.

The Minister is politically responsible to the House for the Commissioner.

The Deputy can make all he wants of it.

Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.

Barr
Roinn