It is proposed to take No. 23— Universities Bill, 1996— Report and Final Stages and No. 24 — Litter Pollution Bill, 1996 — Report and Final Stages. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; the Report and Final Stages of No. 23 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Education; the Report and Final Stages of No. 24 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.15 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment; Private Members' Business shall be No. 9— Private Educational Institutions Bill, 1997 — Second Stage (resumed) and the proceedings on the Second Stage thereof shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight; and the sitting shall not be suspended from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 19 March 1997.
Order of Business.
There are some five matters to put before the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting this evening satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 23 satisfactory and agreed?
We object strongly to the truncating and, as I said yesterday, the strangling of the Universities Bill. A total of 142 amendments were recommitted and were to be openly debated today. Our party wishes to object strongly to the proposal for dealing with the Bill which will effectively rule out much needed further debate on it.
I agree with Deputy O'Rourke. I cannot understand why the Government wants to curtail all the debates on education this week. That is extraordinary. As education is such a fundamental matter we should have a full debate in the House about the reform that is about to take place.
The Universities Bill has been extensively debated for many months. It was the subject of widespread consultation with outside interests and was debated in the House. The Government has a substantial legislative programme and we are anxious to move forward with it. It is in that light that we put forward this proposal today.
I dissuade Members from debating the matter now. This is a procedural matter and the detail must be left to the debate on the Bill. I will hear brief comments only.
Will the Taoiseach consider giving more time to discuss the amendments to the Bill? The nature of the outside consultation was of a kind that was extremely dubious. The heads of the universities were called in by the officials of the Department and told that they would consult with them on a confidential basis and that they could not report back to their governing bodies. That was the only basis on which they were brought in. It seems the Government is endeavouring to bypass the Legislature on fundamental issues that pertain to the universities and other aspects of education. The Bill was discussed at length on Committee Stage, but there are some fundamental issues at stake in terms of State control of the universities with which we want to deal.
There are no grounds for elaboration now.
It is essential that we have an open debate on the Universities Bill and all education matters. The debate is severely truncated this week. Having debated the Bill for 20 hours in committee because the Minister had to do an about turn due to pressure from outside interests and the Opposition, it is essential that those issues be debated openly in the Chamber and sufficient time be given to it.
We requested that much needed extra time be given to the Second Stage debate on the Education Bill but the Taoiseach replied that the Bill would be debated in committee. However, 142 amendments to the Universities Bill were recommitted and there is not enough time for the debate on Report Stage. Education is far too important a topic to be sidelined in this disgraceful way.
I thank Deputy Keogh for her acknowledgment that the Universities Bill has been debated openly in committee for 20 hours. The matter which is the subject of Report Stage amendments was adverted to in detail during those 20 hours of Committee Stage proceedings. Report Stage amendments could not be introduced unless the subject matter had already been substantially debated in committee under the orders of the House.
Sufficient time is required.
Essentially, this is a rerun, in considerable measure, of matters already discussed during the 20-hour period to which Deputy Keogh referred. This measure is reasonable because it is important, from the point of view of the universities, that the legislation should become law. I believe the House will acknowledge that the universities are most anxious that this modernisation of legislation, which has remained substantially unaltered since 1908, should proceed.
The matter must not give rise to argument or debate at this time because it is essentially procedural. I will permit one further comment by Deputies O'Rourke and Keogh and I will then put the question.
The Taoiseach set out to be an Oireachtas reformer and he recognises the existence of select committees. However, this matter now involves open debate in the House and gives all Members who wish to contribute the opportunity to do so on Committee Stage. Not all Members have the opportunity to intervene in respect of detailed scrutiny on Committee Stage.
The Deputy is wrong.
There are 142 amendments to be discussed and the Taoiseach is stifling debate.
Deputy O'Rourke is surprisingly misinformed about Dáil procedures. Any Member of the House can attend a committee. The 20 hours of debate on this measure in committee were open to all Members. I am surprised that the Deputy is unaware of that fact.
Why will the Taoiseach not allow the measure to be debated in the House? Deputies cannot vote at committees of which they are not members.
The Taoiseach is surprisingly misinformed and he is stifling debate.
Methinks the Deputy doth protest too much.
Methinks the Taoiseach does not know his job.
I believe we should be orderly when dealing with these matters. The reason so much time was spent debating the Bill in committee was that it was fatally flawed and had to be extensively changed. This will be the only opportunity to engage in an open debate on the Bill because on Committee Stage no one knew what was happening, least of all Government Members who failed to attend the proceedings.
This is the first time the Bill has appeared in its current format.
Exactly.
The Minister tabled 100 amendments on Committee Stage. It is a different Bill from that which was originally published.
These matters can be dealt with during the debate on the measure.
Tá
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Bell, Michael.
- Dhamjee, Moosajee.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Broughan, Thomas.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Costello, Joe.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- McDowell, Derek.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael(Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Currie, Austin.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, John.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Upton, Pat.
- Walsh, Éamon.
Níl
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Burke, Raphael.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullen, Martin.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Ellis, John.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Keaveney, Cecilia.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kitt, Michael.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Malley, Desmond.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Sargent, Trevor.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Smith, Michael.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Woods, Michael.
Order, please. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 24 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9, Private Members' Business this evening, satisfactory and agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for the sitting on Wednesday next, 19 March 1997, satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.
I want to raise the matter of the hepatitis C tribunal report and findings fully published in all the newspapers. On a day of reality and sadness for many of our citizens, will the Taoiseach say how the decision was arrived at to refer the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions rather than to the Garda authorities? Will the Minister for Health review the golden handshake of over £0.5 million which went to the previous consultants?
There are many ways of raising that matter. It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I wish to raise a different aspect of the matter. We will have a debate in the House on the findings of the tribunal on Thursday week. Will there be an opportunity to question the previous Minister for Health, Deputy Howlin? Parliamentary accountability is a matter for this House and there are serious questions that Deputy Howlin has to answer. We would like——
This is a matter which should be raised at a more appropriate time.
Will we have an opportunity to question the Minister, Deputy Howlin, next week?
There is ample scope for dealing with this matter in the House in accordance with our procedures but not now.
Will there be an opportunity for Deputies to question the Minister, Deputy Howlin, in relation to the tribunal?
This is not Question Time.
There has been a tribunal.
This is facile soundbite stuff.
The publication of the report yesterday was an important phase in this sorry saga. Given that legislation may now be required, has the report on the hepatitis C tribunal implications for the compensation tribunal which was set up as a no fault tribunal? In view of the damning evidence in Mr. Justice Finlay's report——
I have ruled on that matter. It is not relevant to the Order of Business. This is no doubt an important matter and should be raised at a more appropriate time.
On promised legislation——
Let us be careful.
——will the Taoiseach agree he will have to review the situation under which the compensation tribunal was set up and that aggravated damages may now be payable to the victims?
Deputy Cowen is seeking to circumvent the ruling of the Chair. I will not tolerate that.
There is no reply from the Taoiseach this morning.
Mr. Kitt
Will the Taoiseach direct the Labour Court to intervene today in the TEAM Aer Lingus dispute to prevent the strike going ahead tomorrow? This is an urgent matter.
I would be anxious to help Deputy Kitt in this matter but not now.
Perhaps you will facilitate me to raise it on the Adjournment.
I will consider that matter sympathetically with the other matters submitted to me.
Deputy Kitt's party sought to reject the package.
I am loath to interrupt Deputy Sheehan while he gives us the benefit of his knowledge of TEAM Aer Lingus.
A Deputy
Deputy Sheehan should check the Fianna Fáil policy.
We are due a visit from the Tánaiste to give us another lecture on the ramp.
Was the Taoiseach as surprised as the US investor at the decision of the Minister of State, Deputy Stagg, to announce the incinerator which is to be built in the Blanchardstown area? What way is that of doing business?
That matter came before the House quite recently. It is not in order now.
A Minister with responsibility for sport published a White Paper without the Taoiseach's approval and the Minister of State at the Department of Energy has announced an incinerator with a 75 per cent shareholding by an American conglomerate.
It will not be taken until after the election.
He did not even know about it. The Minister of State did not tell the Government.
Deputy Burke, please desist. The matter to which the Deputy refers was ventilated in the House recently.
It is a semi-State operation and what will the Government do about it?
It is an embarrassment.
A number of Deputies are offering. I would expect that the matters they wish to raise are relevant and brief.
As always I promise to raise a relevant matter. On promised legislation, the Government has announced its acceptance of the recommendations of the Finlay tribunal in full. On page 144 of that report, a recommendation states that the non-reporting of abnormal reactions to blood or blood products should be criminalised. Will the Taoiseach give an assurance that the legislation to provide for that, which will not be complex, will be prepared as a matter of urgency? That is the least we are entitled to expect.
There can be no debate on the matter. It is not relevant now.
In the event of the DPP not requesting a formal Garda investigation, will the Government arrange to do it?
That matter will be addressed by the Minister for Health in his contribution in the debate which is planned next week on the tribunal report.
We seem to do nothing else but discuss education on the Order of Business. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for Education to intervene in the strike at the school in Drogheda where the ASTI has picketed the school? This is the first school, in the history of the State, that has been picketed on its own.
A question should be tabled accordingly.
The Taoiseach may be aware of it because it is very near some of his constituents. Will he intervene?
Sorry, Deputy Ahern, you know full well this is not Question Time.
On a matter of urgent public concern, the serious danger to public health being caused by the dumping of animal carcases due to the collapse of the rendering regime, will the Government immediately publish the two reports prepared for Cabinet on the disposal of slaughter-house waste? Will the Taoiseach say why the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry has refused to publish these reports to date?
Is this relevant? Is it a matter for——
I suggest the Deputy should put down a parliamentary question.
I shall be raising the matter on the Adjournment to night.
At the conclusion of the Price Waterhouse report into the State examination system arising from the debacle in the leaving certificate arts examination in 1995, a number of measures were promised by the Government. There are 3,600 students studying for the leaving certificate applied programme who have had their examination cancelled due to industrial relations and organisational problems in the Department.
There are many matters appertaining to universities and education before the House this very day.
We have used all the mechanisms available to us. The dispute is still ongoing because there is a minority group involved.
Has the Government plans to introduce legislation to control genetic research?
At this stage no proposal is being considered but the matter is being carefully reviewed. The implications of advances in biotechnology have to be reviewed from a regulatory perspective both at national and European level.
If you are going to clone Fine Gael with——
The Deputy's party could have done with a few clones this morning to vote.
A Deputy
The Deputy is a long way from home.
What about the letters the Deputy has——
That is the Deputy's distinct contribution to bio-diversity.
When is the Land Registry Bill likely to be published? Is the Taoiseach aware of concerns and will he invite submissions regarding proposals to locate part of the Land Registry office in Waterford?
The earlier part of the Deputy's question is relevant but the latter is not.
This is one of the items of legislation which the Deputy's party did little or nothing about when in office for a long time. I am glad to say this legislation is being advanced and will be introduced by this Government in the second half of the year.
Some chance. Be honest.
I ask the Taoiseach to withdraw that remark. That is a political untruth and he knows it.
We have devoted more than adequate time to the Order of Business this morning.
Will the Taoiseach look into the distressing circumstances regarding repossession of houses? There is potential for many more repossessions in the competitive world——
Legislation?
——in which building societies are eagerly doling out money to would-be house purchasers who will not be able to repay.
I am sorry, Deputy, I am anxious to assist you but it is a matter for another time.
The Minister for Finance signalled this clearly last week when he spoke on the matter. Is no legislation planned?