It is proposed to take the report from the Select Committee on Social Affairs on the Social Welfare Bill, 1997; No. 25 — Education Bill, 1997 — Second Stage (resumed); and No.12 — motion concerning special areas of conservation. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 25, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m. today; and (2) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 12: (i) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes.
Order of Business.
There are some two matters to put before the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No.25 satisfactory and agreed?
I wish the Taoiseach a happy and fruitful journey to the USA. It is traditional to wish Taoisigh well when they travel to represent the nation. Go n-éirí an bóthar leis.
We spent the week dealing with education but there has been no debate. Some 550 students are locked out but the Minister has made no commitment to meet or talk to them or to resolve the issue. Debate on the Universities Bill was truncated and only 40 of the 120 amendments were taken. Second Stage of the Education Bill will be shortened after only two days debate. The Taoiseach's party has a long tradition of interest in education. Many of us have arranged meetings this weekend with constituency groups who wish to talk to us about the matter. I challenge him to allow this Bill to proceed to discussion next week and, if possible, the week after so that we can meet at constituency level with parents, teachers' representatives and the churches.
I thank Deputy O'Rourke for her good wishes on my visit to the United States when I will avail of the privilege of meeting President Clinton. A substantial Second Stage debate has already taken place on the Education Bill.
It has not.
The Minister has indicated her wish to move forward to Committee Stage so that Opposition amendments and suggestions from outside interests who are concerned to improve this Bill can be taken into consideration. Specific changes to the Bill can only be made if we reach Committee Stage. If we persist in discussing general principles we will not reach the point when we discuss individual changes and improvements. The Government wishes to move on to Committee Stage where all the points made on the different sides of the issue by the parents' councils, patrons, etc.——
No debate in the House.
—— can be better conciliated through detailed consideration as occurs on Committee Stage rather than through clashes on issues of principle which do not reflect the reality of partnership in education which the Minister has worked so hard to bring about.
Is the Taoiseach serious?
Talk about rewriting the book.
The Taoiseach is overturning the procedures of the House.
The Taoiseach is not very convincing. We have not had a major debate on this issue. We have merely had a debate for four hours and my party has not even had an opportunity to have a second speaker. The Taoiseach must realise this is fundamental legislation that will have a detrimental effect on our education system and we should have a full debate. The Taoiseach is smiling. I am surprised he does not realise the implications of this legislation. We want to have an open democratic debate.
We want a democratic education system.
I do not know why this is being guillotined today. It is obviously a question of clearing the decks so that the Labour Party can have its ideology implemented before the election.
What happened to the Deputy's political thinking?
Fine Gael does not agree with this nonsense. I appeal to the Taoiseach not to proceed with this motion and to allow the debate to continue. It is not an emergency.
I am surprised that Deputy Harney refers to making statutory provision for the involvement of parents in education as nonsense. It indicates a very paternalistic attitude to education on the part of the Deputy's party——
We are the only ones prepared.
—— a directive approach which does not take account of the interests of parents or their role in education. Education is a partnership between parents, teachers and children——
The nanny state.
——and this legislation provides a statutory basis for that partnership.
The Government is wheeling it out.
Do Deputies opposite want Irish education to be governed by British legislation dating back to 1879——
It is governed by the Labour Party.
That is a disgrace.
——or do they want this State to make its own provisions in legislation in the Houses of the Oireachtas for the education of Irish children?
The Taoiseach should be ashamed of himself.
I believe the affection parties opposite are showing for unreformed British legislation shows the fundamentally backward looking attitude of the parties concerned.
Will the Taoiseach give way?
Let us have a debate.
It is about time Irish parents were given a statutory right by the Houses of the Oireachtas to take part in the education of their children and parties opposite stopped playing politics with this issue. Let us get on with it.
The Taoiseach is making our point for us.
What a sham.
In dealing with a matter of this kind, the Chair usually allows brief comment——
The Taoiseach is the bully in the classroom.
Does the Deputy's party believe the Minister for Education of this country to be William Stewart Gladstone——
The Taoiseach is a bluffer.
——or does it believe that we should have an Irish person devising the law for Irish education?
Let us have a debate.
The Deputy is out of date.
The Taoiseach is the biggest bully in the classroom.
Debate will ensue when the measure comes before the House. Members can ventilate their views then.
We have only had four hours debate, one and half hours of which was taken up by the three main party spokespersons. This is a fundamental Bill which deals with a wide range of interests. I am due to meet Church of Ireland parents next week.
Bravo.
The Deputy should have met them last week.
I met three representatives of post-primary parents yesterday who are all opposed to the Bill. Clearly, there is an attempt via this Bill to rewrite the White Paper on education and take the churches out of education.
Nonsense.
There is an agenda to centralise Irish education, a State takeover of education——
The Deputy should await debate on the matter.
The Government is trying to bury this Bill and take it off the agenda so that we cannot have a debate. Should we abolish Second Stage debate completely? Is that what the Taoiseach wants? Deputies are entitled to debate the principles of any Bill and we should not be denied that right.
Do not tell me what to do. Please resume your seat, Deputy.
People may have different views and policies but they have the right to debate them in the House. It is a disgrace and a scandal that the Legislature is being bypassed in such a flagrant, abusive and arrogant manner.
I will hear Deputy Keogh's remarks and then proceed to put the question.
The Taoiseach should admit that he is afraid of open debate on this extremely flawed legislation——
Not at all.
——and the reason it is being rushed through is he does not want open debate or members of his party who object to his Bill quietly in the corridors to voice their opinions.
There is a plot.
I am putting the question, "That the proposals for dealing with No. 25 be agreed".
Members may not anticipate debate on this measure now.
On a point of order, we are not getting a debate.
It is undemocratic.
It is the lack of a debate and the proposal for a guillotine.
It is a disgrace. In my ten years here I have not seen anything like this.
Tá
- Ahearn, Theresa.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Bhamjee, Moosajee.
- Bhreathnach, Niamh.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bree, Declan.
- Broughan, Thomas.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Burke, Liam.
- Burton, Joan.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Carey, Donal.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Costello, Joe.
- Coveney, Hugh.
- Crawford, Seymour.
- Creed, Michael.
- Crowley, Frank.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Finucane, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Brian.
- Fitzgerald, Eithne.
- Fitzgerald, Frances.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Harte, Paddy.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Higgins, Michael.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kemmy, Jim.
- Kenny, Seán.
- Lynch, Kathleen.
- McDowell, Derek.
- McGahon, Brendan.
- McGrath, Paul.
- McManus, Liz.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
- Mulvihill, John.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Owen, Nora.
- Pattison, Séamus.
- Penrose, William.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Ring, Michael.
- Ryan, John.
- Shatter, Alan.
- Sheehan, P.J.
- Shortall, Róisín.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Upton, Pat.
- Walsh, Éamon.
Níl
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Ahern, Noel.
- Andrews, David.
- Brennan, Matt.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Burke, Raphael.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Coughlan, Mary.
- Gallagher, Pat (Donegal South-West).
- Gregory, Tony.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Seán.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Keaveney, Cecilia.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Killeen, Tony.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lawlor, Liam.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McDaid, James.
- McDowell, Michael.
- Moffatt, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Cowen, Brian.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Davern, Noel.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Doherty, Seán.
- Ellis, John.
- Flood, Chris.
- Foley, Denis.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Donnell, Liz.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- O'Keeffe, Ned.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- Power, Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Smith, Brendan.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Woods, Michael.
Are the proposals for dealing with No. 12 agreed? Agreed.
Shame on the Taoiseach, he has silenced his own Deputies on a fundamental issue.
That matter has been disposed of by this House.
It is a disgrace. Bootboy tactics.
May I ask the Taoiseach when the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Bill will be published?
This session. The work on that Bill is quite advanced.
Is the Taoiseach still of the opinion that a British system operates in Irish education?
The Taoiseach should withdraw that comment.
It is a disgraceful remark.
These matters should be left to the debate which will doubtless ensue shortly.
The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste should not laugh. The Taoiseach obviously does not know what he is talking about.
The position is that a substantial portion of Irish education has operated on the basis of a letter by a gentleman called Stanley addressed to the Lord Lieutenant in the 1830s.
Did the Taoiseach ever read the Constitution?
There has been no statutory provision in regard to that matter by any successive Dála until this Dáil and this Minister for Education.
The Taoiseach is off the wall.
Did the Taoiseach ever read the Constitution?
All previous Dála allowed British circulars and legislation to be the basis for primary and secondary education in this country.
The Taoiseach should read the Constitution.
I am proud the Government and this Minister are making an independent Irish statutory provision for education.
Well done, Taoiseach. The Labour Party Members are clapping.
The Labour Party loves the Taoiseach.
The Taoiseach is deranged.
The decision to debate this matter has been adjudged by this House and there should be no further comment on it.
The Taoiseach has undermined the Constitution in his reference to education.
The Deputy will have ample time to ventilate that view when the debate commences. I call Deputy Seamus Brennan.
Zero tolerance.
The Taoiseach finds himself in the awkward position of being forced by the Labour Party to use jackboot tactics to stifle debate on this important legislation. It is obvious that he and the Fine Gael Party do not want to do that.
There is an expert sitting behind the Deputy.
It is an absolute disgrace if the Taoiseach is of the view that Irish education, going back to the last century, has nothing to do with the Constitution.
Deputy Burke and the other Members will have ample time to debate this matter further.
It is a disgrace that we will have had only four hours to debate this Education Bill. The debate is being stifled by the behaviour of the Taoiseach.
The behaviour of the Labour Party.
The Deputy is wasting time.
I will not call Deputy Seamus Brennan again.
What about the children of this country? What about the rights of the churches? What about the Constitution?
The Deputies opposite are still tipping the forelock.
If this continues I will adjourn the House.
This is definitely a lunatic asylum.
We only wanted some debate.
A debate on the education of our children will be pushed into a committee room of this House.
The Chair will not be obeyed. The democratic decision of the House will not be obeyed. I have no alternative but to adjourn the House for at least a quarter of an hour.
Let us now proceed with the business of this House in an orderly fashion. I will tolerate nothing less. I am proceeding now to the report of the Select Committee on Social Affairs.
On the Order of Business——
I was hoping to move on to the business of the House, having regard to what has gone before. The Deputy will understand that.
Far be it from me to be disorderly. I did not wish to provoke any of the scenes we witnessed, but I have to put on record that we in this party are severely disappointed at the way the Taoiseach has handled the issue of education.
May I raise another matter on the Order of Business?
If it is legitimate.
The Taoiseach wants to intervene.
I do not think we should have any further reference to the matter.
We are going to have a debate on it now.
The debate will come shortly.
The Taoiseach has said that he has no principles, that they depend on Democratic Left. That is coming out now in debate and he is saying we do not have to discuss it on Second Stage.
I will not tolerate any further disorder.
I want to record my objection to what is happening.
On the Order of Business, legislation entitled the Air Navigation and Transport Bill has been promised. Is it Government policy to support the statement by the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications last evening in which he said publicly that he is not opposed to the selling off of part of Aer Lingus? Is that the united policy of all the parties in Government? Can we expect a statement from the northside six Labour Deputies on the issue shortly?
The Deputy will find another way of dealing with that.
Is it Government policy?
It is the policy of the Government to preserve and enhance employment in our airline, and one of the ways that can be done is by entering into a strategic alliance.
The Government is going to sell it off. It is going to privatise Aer Lingus. Where are the northside six now? The Government is going to sell off part of Aer Lingus and there is not a peep from the northside six.
We have just heard an announcement that Aer Lingus is going to be sold and there is silence from the Labour benches. I will await their statement.
Is this the way we propose to proceed, by way of shouting match?
In November the House was promised legislation to establish an independent prisons authority. Since then an expert group has been established to look into the whole matter. This was to report back to the Minister at the end of January. What is the status of that legislation? Why has there been a delay?
The report is not available yet. Therefore, the legislation is not likely to be introduced until the second half of the year.
Yesterday I endeavoured to raise a matter on the Order of Business and was ruled out of order. Subsequently I put down a private notice question on the matter and was ruled out of order on the basis that the Minister said she had no function in the matter. Let me again ask the Taoiseach to intercede in relation to the Sacred Heart School in Drogheda where over 500 pupils are not at school because of an ongoing strike there. It is unprecedented.
This is not a matter for the Order of Business.
I appreciate that, but because it is unprecedented there is need for legislation and I would ask the Taoiseach to intercede. The Minister is washing her hands of the issue, even though her colleague in the constituency is telling the world that he has been in contact with her.
On a matter of urgent public importance, has the Government any plans to have talks with the EU Commission on the continuing failure to accommodate exports of live cattle to the Continent, a failure which is clearly in breach of the Treaty of Rome? When will there be free trade for the Irish farmer?
That is not appropriate now.
I am happy to see the Tánaiste and the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht so proximate, because I am sure the Tánaiste will understand what I am talking about. Will the Taoiseach intercede with the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht who, through lack of consultation, has sounded the death knell for every prospective golf links in the country?
That is not correct.
This is not Question Time.
The Tánaiste should come to Donegal where large areas are being wiped out through lack of consultation by the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht.
The matter is out of order.
What happened to the other 31 counties will not happen there.
Did the Tánaiste raise the case of Danny McNamee with Sir Patrick Mayhew yesterday, and will he keep the pressure on the British Home Secretary to have this case referred to the Court of Criminal Appeal?
I must disabuse Members of the notion that this is Question Time. It is not.
In view of the very urgent case of Róisín McAliskey——
This is a matter of serious urgency.
If it is, the Deputy should deal with it in the proper manner and put down a question or a motion.
We have already had a motion.
I am calling Deputy Pat Gallagher, but he is not responding. I am proceeding to the business of the House. The Deputy may not ignore the Chair.
(Donegal South-West): I am responding. I am on my feet.
There was a development yesterday. It was stated that Róisín McAliskey has been in detention for over a year. It is time the Government did something about this issue.
Deputy Ó Cuív may not proceed on the matter. It is not in order now.
It is totally unacceptable that the Taoiseach should sit there laughing while somebody is in detention for over a year. The Taoiseach is laughing about it. He does not take it seriously.
I am calling Deputy Pat Gallagher, but I am being ignored again. I am proceeding now to the business of the House.
(Donegal South-West): I wish to raise a very minor matter. The Chair cannot accuse me of being disorderly.
Why can I not? I called the Deputy and he did not respond.
(Donegal South-West): Will the Taoiseach say when the promised legislation referred to in the programme, A Government of Renewal, will be introduced to allow competition between community television deflector systems and MMDS franchisees? The Taoiseach also made a commitment in that regard when Leader of the Opposition.
I welcome the Deputy back to the House. That question was asked and answered yesterday.
It was not answered.
Discourtesy to the Opposition has become a trademark of the Taoiseach when asked a question. Is it the Government's intention to amend the Tribunal of Inquiry Act, given that the Taoiseach failed to send the report to the Garda Commissioner? He has a copy now as I undertook to send it to him. Did the Taoiseach set a timescale for the Attorney General to consider the report from Mr. Justice Finlay? When will the Attorney General advise the Government on whether changes will be made in the compensation tribunal for the purposes of paying aggravated damages to victims?
The Deputy should relate the matter to legislation.
That is totally in order, a Cheann Comhairle.
The Deputy thinks so but I do not.
It is promised legislation.
Where is the promised legislation?
From the Government. Yesterday the Minister for the Environment said that consideration would be given to paying aggravated damages to victims.
In respect of the alleged legislation, I observe the Taoiseach shaking his head.
Was the Minister authorised to make that statement on the national broadcasting service, or was it another top of the head decision?
The Deputy is treading on thin ice.
Was it a top of the head decision?
The Deputy is misquoting what I said.
I am not, I read the transcript and they are the Minister's words.
Arising from the numerous debates in this House and yesterday's debate in the European Parliament on illegal trade in tobacco and cigarettes, which is a European-wide problem, has the Taoiseach plans to introduce legislation in this area to address the huge loss of income to the Exchequer?
A question on the matter would be very desirable.
The Taoiseach was involved in the debate on this matter.