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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Mar 1997

Vol. 476 No. 4

Special Areas of Conservation: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Higgins, on Thursday, 13 March 1997:
That Dáil Éireann welcomes the publication of the Regulations for the designation of Special Areas of Conservation under the Statutory Instrument laid before the Oireachtas on the 26th February by the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht for the purpose of transposing into Irish law the terms of the Habitats Directive of the European Union in accordance with the terms of the European Communities Act 1972; and notes with approval the success of the Minister in promoting a spirit of partnership between all those concerned for the conservation of the Irish countryside in advancing the objectives of the Directive.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Eireann" and substitute the following: notes the publication of the Regulations for the designation of Special Areas of Conservation, condemns the failure of the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht to engage in full consultation, further condemns the Minister for his failure to provide full information, notes with concern the continuing disquiet of landowners, who are key partners in the conservation process, and calls on the Minister to ensure that a genuine partnership between conservationists and landowners exists.
—(Deputy de Valera).

Legislation in this area goes back to 1977 when the Wildlife Act was enacted. That comprehensive Act was supposed to cure all the ills affecting the preservation of wildlife, but 20 years later the Act has not done anything to safeguard wildlife and habitats. I have no hesitation in saying that there have been 20 years of neglect since that legislation was passed. I have no doubt that many of the endangered species specifically mentioned in the 1977 Act are now extinct and those that remain are in more danger than ever. There has been incredible neglect in this area.

Legislation such as this will never be of use in safeguarding our wildlife unless personnel are employed to safeguard wildlife and monitor what is happening in the fields, glens, hills and lakes. I come from a county — Waterford — that is mountainous, with two large mountain ranges and much hilly country, and there is only one wildlife ranger in charge of that county, with no staff to assist him. Does the Minister believe that is satisfactory? It cannot be. This legislation is not worth much unless personnel are recruited to implement it and to monitor conservation.

The Minister said that many habitat sites and species of fauna and flora have been destroyed, degraded or seriously threatened and that that cannot continue. He said that such critical issues need to be grasped and remedial action taken. That is true, but will that be done. My experience in 20 years in this House is that it has not been done, and it will not be done. There is no evidence that the personnel whose job it is to oversee the operation will be employed. I continuously ask in this House if additional staff will be provided. There were two wildlife rangers in my county, but one of them died three years ago and was not replaced. How can monitoring take place and wildlife be protected when the staff are not available to do so? Is it envisaged that there will be dozens of wildlife rangers in each county? I asked that question before but received no reply. What is the point of passing legislation unless its provisions can be implemented? The 1977 Act was never implemented.

A difficulty I have with the legislation is that it is selective. I know that the Minister means well in introducing it, but it involves 550,000 hectares covering the Twenty-six Counties. I do not know what percentage of the land mass that is, probably less than 10 per cent, but what about the other 90 per cent? What is being done to protect wildlife in the 90 per cent not covered by the legislation? Will we continue to allow hedgerows, the natural habitats of much wildlife, particularly songbirds, to be cut and burned? Will we allow marshy land, the natural habitat of many game birds such as duck and snipe, to be drained, given that it is not included in the legislation? For years people have received grants for reclaiming bad land while the European Union pays people huge sums of money not to cultivate the best of land. It is hard to accept that we are eliminating systematically the natural habitats of our wildlife, fauna and flora while encouraging people not to till land of the best quality. That is illogical.

I previously asked the Minister whether we keep an inventory of wildlife species and he replied that we do not. That is shameful. We should have information on the number of each species, what species are endangered and why they are endangered. What is causing their numbers to fall? Irish people tend to have a genuine interest in animal life and their natural surroundings. We should enlist the services of school children to carry out surveys in their local communities. That would be a two way process. We would get the information we want and it would engender tremendous interest in wildlife in school going children.

How many goldfinches, bullfinches or chaffinches exist in the country? Are their numbers depleting on a daily basis? If so, why? We do not know the answers to these questions. The same questions could be asked about the number of linnets, wrens, thrushes and blackbirds. Are there any kingfishers left in the country? I have seen one or two, but they are few and far between. Is anybody interested in finding out this information? Why does the Department not issue a publication listing endangered or extinct species of wildlife? If we do not know the facts, how can we address the problem?

More attention was paid to the preservation of wildlife 100 years ago. At that time people took positive steps to preserve wildlife. We now live in the age of pesticides, modern methods of agriculture and industrial evolution. Wildlife is being wiped out, but we do not know the specific reasons. We do not even have figures for the varieties of wildlife being affected by agricultural development or emissions from industrial developments. Questions I have posed at Question Time, and in other debates, give the clear impression that studies on these matters are not being carried out.

This is the start of the breeding season for many species of wildlife. What measures are being taken to protect their breeding ground? Hedgerows are being cut and mountain heather will be burned even though birds are nesting and breeding there. What is being done to curtail activity that leads to the extinction of wildlife? It is demoralising to see regulations being passed without resources to support them.

The most positive aspect of these regulations is the compensation that will be paid to landowners who conserve areas of their land for wildlife to breed. However, these regulations will apply to only about 10 per cent of the country. Until such time as we carry out research into what is causing the extinction of our wildlife we will not make progress. There have been 20 years of inaction in terms of the Wildlife Act, 1977. Unless the personnel is provided to protect our habitats, the regulations before us will be meaningless. While they may have some practical effect in the west, they will not have any meaning for the rest of the country. I hope the regulations lead to a positive outcome.

Tá áthas orm go bhfuil deis an teoranta ann an cheist seo a phlé inniu. Is fada sinn ag iarraidh na deise seo agus caithfidh mé a rá gur mór an náire nach raibh an deis againn ceisteanna a chur agus freagraí a fháil ach sin an cineál caoi a caitheadh leis an cheist seo ón tús.

Níl na daoine i gConnemara sásta go bhfuil an t-eolas tugtha faoin scéim seo agus is cuma cad é a deir duine ar bith. Tá siad ag iarraidh freagraí ar cheisteanna agus ní bheidh siad sásta go dtí go mbeidh na freagraí curtha ar fáil. Rinne an tAire casaoid faoi ghearán a rinne mo chomhleacaí féin, An Teachta de Valera, agus é ag caint leo, faoin gcaoi a baineadh leis an bpobal, agus leis na Teachtaí Dála atá tógtha ag an bpobal, maidir le eolas a chur ar fáil faoin scéim seo. Ba mhaith liom a rá leo go raibh sé thar a bheith deacair ag Teachtaí Dála teacht ar aon eolas caoin faoina moltaí a bhí ag an Áire go dtí gur foilsíodh na rialacha ach níl sa rialacha ach an chruthúlacht; níl na mionsonraí againn fós faoi céard atá i gceist. An t-údar imní is mó atá ar dhaoine faoin scéim seo ná nach bhfuil anseo ach an tús. Tá faitíos ar fheirmeoirí sna ceanntracha seo, agus feirmeoirí i mo cheanntar féin ina measc. Tá faitíos orm, de réir a chéile, go ndéanfar iad a chúngú agus a chúngú go dtí nach mbeidh mórán deis acu dul ar aghaidh leis na bealaí traidisiúnta a bhí acu. Nil aon rud atá déanta ag an Áire go dtí seo tar éis a n-intinn a shuaimhniú faoin gceist seo. Mar sin déarfaidh mé uair amháin eile go bhfuil gá go mbeidh i bhfad níos mó oscailteacht agus comhphlé i dtaobh an ábhair seo.

I welcome this opportunity to make statements, rather than debate, this issue. The lack of involvement by elected representatives and our difficulty in getting information is an indictment of the Minister and the Government. It highlights the low level to which public representatives have been brought.

As a representative I have a right to know what is happening. I should not have to go to representative bodies to find out what Governments and Ministers are proposing. We have been given bald regulations that do not provide the details. Only today the Minister gave Members details of the compensation package which has been available to members of the IFA for the past two weeks. This is no way to treat us. We have a right to this information on behalf of our constituents.

There are a number of major fundamental issues at stake, one of which is that the people do not resist conservation. No farmer worth his salt wants to destroy his land because he wishes to hand it on as he got it. To accuse farmers of destroying their heritage is the anithesis of the so-called partnership of which we are meant to be part.

I also disagree with the European Union's heavy handed approach to this issue. A message should be sent to Europe that we do not operate here by diktat or regulation but through a spirit of co-operation. If it is interested in conservation, it should listen to the people and make arrangements with them; it should not issue regulations which will only fill rooms with paper and destroy the rain forests which are used to manufacture that paper.

We are trying to preserve different aspects of Irish life. It is part of our tradition to preserve historical monuments. We all know the traditional rural attitude towards fairy forts, etc., most of which were only destroyed in the past 20 or 30 years. Modernisation did most of the damage by changing those traditional positive attitudes.

Listening to the debates organised by the IFA and to what the Minister's officials said, one would think SACs were introduced in Connemara to stop overgrazing. There are two reasons that is nonsense. The first is that overgrazing is happening in hills which are not in the proposed SACs just as much as in hills in the SACs. If over-grazing is worrying the Minister and the EU, we could deal with it tomorrow. I have put forward proposals on numerous occasions to deal with this problem which would not cost a penny and would have the support of all farmers. However, it will not be dealt with under these proposals which will not work. We can introduce schemes but we will not deal with the problems in Connemara until we recognise the method of farming there. There are too many ewes on the hills so we must reduce the number of sheep to deal with overgrazing.

Bogland is the main area of preservation in Connemara. In recent years the famous "sausage machine" for producing and cutting turf caused much destruction to the bogland. Not only did the "sausage machine" destroy the habitat, it was also an inefficient way of cutting turf in the wet bogs of Connemara. It produced a maximum of two cuts of turf and there was little recoverable turf. The machine destroyed the bogs because of the way it operated without a drainage system. People, like myself, have begged for years to outlaw this machine because of the destruction it caused to the habitat and the bogs in terms of recoverable fuel. The people using it were cutting off their nose to spite their face. If we were serious about protecting our habitat we would have ensured that those using this method did not do so again.

The Minister makes great play of the compensation issue. There are two ways to get compensation, one of which is to join REPS. If a person joins REPS, they will get £15 an acre compensation for the first 100 acres for being in a SAC. If a person is not in REPS, they must prove they incurred a loss to get compensation. That will be difficult to do in certain circumstances.

The IFA has generously offered, in the case of disputes, to attend the arbitration hearings and provide advice for its members. I compliment it for the way it sustains its members. However, only one in ten farmers in Connemara are members of the IFA and they are the strongest and most viable. Who will defend the interests of the 65 or 75 year old pensioner? How will they challenge on scientific grounds designations and regulations introduced by the State? Bureaucracy always favours those with resources or access to resources and penalises those on the margins — the weakest, the oldest and the least endowed intellectually. This is another imposition on farmers.

There are many reasons farmers do not want to join REPS. A neighbour told me it was not worth his while joining REPS because the planners told him the money he would receive would have to be spent on slatted housing for his cattle. He can winter his cattle and farm successfully without causing any environmental damage. REPS does not suit everyone. Some people believe there is too much bureaucracy or that the Department is introducing too many regulations. A new regulation is that someone with an environmental qualification must countersign the REPS plan in a national heritage area. We all know that more conditions will be incorporated in these plans, although payments to farmers will remain the same. One has only to look at the extra regulations in Leader II compared to Leader I. REPS finishes in three years but we have no guarantee there will be a new REPS scheme, particularly with the expansion of the EU. What will this mean for farmers?

Will somebody clarify what is restricted, what one can and cannot do without the permission of the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht if one is not in a REP scheme because it is the matter of control, not money, which worries people? It is about freedom, the right to get on with one's occupation. The blurbs we were given stated that one cannot reclaim one's land. Does that mean an overgrown stream which was drained ten years ago cannot be cleaned without the permission of the Minister? We are told that one cannot clear scrub. Does that mean that if a person cut back gorse five or ten years ago in one of his better fields, he cannot do it again without the permission of the Minister? Can a farmer put up 100 yards of fencing without the permission of the Minister? We and the people want to know the answers and whether the Minister is adding endlessly to this list as the environmentalists put pressure on the conservation of open fields and mountains?

I welcome the clarification on the compulsory purchase issue. That is a step forward.

The Minister mentioned compensation of £20 million and Minister De Rossa must be smiling because the bulk of the compensation paid in Connemara will be paid indirectly to the Minister for Social Welfare. Vague promises have been given on the question of the exemption of these payments from means testing. Have they not been given?

There is no difficulty.

Will the Minister explain it?

Will the Deputy explain where the difficulty lies?

At present £2,000 of the payment under the REP scheme is exempt from means testing for the purposes of social welfare but if a person is in receipt of more than £2,000, the rest of the money is assessed on a pound for pound basis. That means a farmer in receipt of unemployment assistance or a pension, that is, the vast bulk of farmers in an area like Connemara, the net maximum benefit from REPS irrespective of their acreage is £2,000 a year. In fact, under the existing regulations, the maximum income of a farmer who wishes to avail of social welfare is the basic social welfare rate plus £2,000, if he or she is a member of REPS. If the farmer already has 33 acres at £60 per acre on which he is drawing REPS, until the regulations are changed every penny of the money he gets under the SAC compensation provision will be assessable for means testing purposes. No agreement should have been reached until it had been clarified that that system of pound for pound means testing of payments under REPS and SAC schemes would be changed. It is no good giving a vague undertaking that the Minister for Social Welfare will examine the matter. The Minister of State can shake his head but that is exactly how the social welfare scheme works. I thought he would have known better.

I am sorry to hear such convoluted ideas.

They are not convoluted. People come to my constituency clinic with such cases every week. I know exactly how the scheme works. It is calculated pound for pound for all income a person earns from their farm and the only exemption as of today is £2,000 for the REP scheme. It means that a farmer who needs social welfare to survive cannot benefit by more than £2,000 from being a member of REPS and if the Minister's only intention is to increase that to £2,500, for example, it still does not deal with the issue and the people know that is the case. The reality is that these payments go into one pocket and are taken out in time by the Department from the other pocket and the farmer does not wind up any better off. It is important that this issue is addressed. If there are to be compensation payments, it is important that they wind up in the pockets of the farmers.

Mar a dúirt mé ag an tús, sílim nach bhfuil deireadh an scéil seo cloiste. Tá an-amhras ar mhuintir Chonamara, thar aon dream, leis an gcaoi a láimhseáileadh an scéal seo. Beidh sé thar a bheith soiléir, aineoinn an méid atá ráite ag an Aire faoi chruinnithe ar an dTeach dóite. Bhí cruinniú ar an dTeach Dóite an oíche faoi dheireadh agus is mór an trua nach raibh an tAire agus an tAire Stáit i láthair leis an míshuaimhneas atá ar mhuintir Chonnemara faoin scéal seo a mhothú, mar cloiseann siadsan rompu go bhfuil gearradh siar le teacht ar a ndeontasaí agus tá siad a dhéanamh amach, cibé a tharlóidh ar ball, go mbeidh laincisí thar teoreann curtha orthu agus nach mbeidh cúiteamh orthu, go mbeidh méarluítheas dochreidte orthu, agus ag deireadh an lae dá dtiocfaí ar chomhréiteach leo gan leathnú ar an méarluítheas, dhéanfaidís cinnte go ndéanfaí an talamh a chaomhnú.

I want to approach this motion from a different angle as my colleagues have spoken on its various aspects. We are critical of the fact that these areas have been designated without a proper consultative process with many groups. This is the reason many people have come to my clinic over the past number of weeks to complain about how the matter was handled.

The scheme without a consultative process probably signs the death knell for what links golf courses, which have not been taken into consideration. The Minister mentioned that there are 54,000 hectares of salt marsh, machair and sand dunes. Large stretches of coastline have been included in this area so I put it to the Minister of State that this is something which did not occur to anybody.

The economy of County Donegal relies heavily on tourism and I assure the Minister of State that a number of people will be in contact with him because they were not consulted. I know of one development which was ready to proceed, and for which planning permission had been granted, when a map was produced which showed that it formed part of a scientific area. Hence, this entire development for County Donegal has gone up in smoke. I want the Minister's officials to see what can be done about such situations because I have been informed that a person will have three months to lodge an appeal, the appeal will go before a committee in Ireland and whatever is picked out as being worthy of appeal will be then sent to Europe. Is that the case? As the matter relates to an EU directive, is it a fact that if a development is to be appealed today it may not be given the go-ahead for two years? The Minister has not considered that aspect. Some of the his Labour Party colleagues agree with me that they have not been consulted about that aspect. I am sure the Minister of State will agree that this is a matter of concern throughout his county. On contacting the Department about this matter I was told the EU directive frowns on golf links, there are too many of them and no more are wanted. If that is the attitude, a large number of people and a large part of the economy will be excluded.

The designation of a priority area can be appealed only on scientific grounds. Will the Minister consider designating national heritage areas that could be appealed on social and economic grounds? The designation of some areas in a county as large as County Donegal could be appealed on social and economic grounds, but because the designation of a priority area can be appealed only on scientific grounds it could be referred to Europe which could result in the loss of developments of value to tourism.

Deputy Ó Cúiv said that this motion is shortsighted in a number of respects. As the Minister said, there is general consensus that our natural heritage has been seriously damaged and that many sites and species of flora and fauna have been destroyed. I am not pressing this but I ask the Minister to take account of the points I made.

Will the Minister consider the possibility of Members meeting the relevant bodies concerned? There should be greater consultation before the appeals process comes into play. Areas in respect of which planning permission was sought should be given the go ahead provided those concerned give a guarantee that the wildlife species in the area will be protected.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Moffatt.

I am sure that is agreed.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to address the problems associated with the designation of SACs and NHAs. I support the amendment tabled by our spokesperson, Deputy de Valera, because a good deal was left to be desired in the way this debate was initially introduced. We sought a debate on this matter last year, but we did not succeed. The Minister said he was about to sign the directive and he was very anxious to sign the document in Europe, but he would not give us an opportunity to debate the issues. It was only because Fianna Fáil and the farming organisations, assisted by their local representative, brought the issues to light that the Minister woke up at the eleventh hour and decided he should consult the environmentalists and the farmers.

The race is on.

The Minister did not come back to us on that, but he consulted outside interests. Some of the problems in this area were discussed on a Private Member's motion. Nevertheless, the Minister was slow in coming forward with information on this issue. That is not partnership. The manner in which this matter has been dealt with shows scant regard for this House. It is not good enough to blame personnel in the EU and use the excuse of meeting deadlines for the delay in dealing with this matter. As Members of this House, we have a right to know what is happening. Farmers and others have a right to know details of the regulations and how they will be affect them. Very little was done to address the issues involved until pressure was put on the Minister. Despite his relenting at the eleventh hour and agreeing to meet those concerned, we have not been given all the details. Having discussed the matter with various groups, including the IFA, many questions remain to be answered. Approximately 15,000 farmers and 217 special areas of conservation, many of which are in the west, particularly in Donegal, Galway and Mayo, will be affected.

And Belmullet.

Belmullet is included. Killala Bay, Bellacorick bog, Currane, Achill and virtually every area of Mayo.

Belmullet will be a nice trip for the Deputy.

We must look after the interests of our people, be they farmers, fishermen or those interested in agri-tourism. We have a duty to look after their interests and that is why we have put so much pressure on the Minister to address some of the questions raised by my colleagues.

There are 400 sites and nearly one million acres involved, but many questions need to be answered. Bord na Móna has an operation around Bellacorick. What will happen to its operation under the regulations governing the designation of NHAs and SACs? Will it be allowed develop its operation? Will those who cut turf for sale be allowed to continue to do so? Those are some of the more relevant questions that were raised.

What restrictions will be imposed on those involved in agri-tourism? Will they be allowed build in certain areas? Will pony trekking be allowed and will other activities that would involve a change of practice be allowed? We have heard of practices that might have been in vogue previously, but if someone wishes to make a living by changing their modus operandi will they be allowed to do so under the new framework following the designation of SACs?

We hear a good deal about the cheque in the post. I hope the implementation of these regulations will not be a nail in our coffin and drive more people off the land. The population in Mayo has been decreasing although at present there are some signs of stabilisation. It is important in a country where farming is a major industry to retain as many people as possible on the land. Deputy Ó Cúiv made some interesting remarks on problems of overgrazing.

The Deputy was listening to the prophet of doom.

Not necessarily. He has his ear to the ground and he knows what is happening. It is acceptable to have one's ear to the ground in regard to what is happening in Dublin 4, but when it comes to Connemara and areas of the west Deputy Ó Cúiv knows what is happening in social welfare and farming matters.

He would be better than the Deputy on the Bonniconlon issue.

The mast is causing a problem there. The issue of whether a mast can be erected in designated areas is another matter. The Minister may tell us more about that because there is a dearth of information.

The IFA has more information on these regulations than Members of this House. We had to get information on the compensation package from members of the IFA. While I welcome the compensation package, was the IFA constrained in the deal it made with the Minister because of its involvement in Partnership 2000? Some have stated this will cost £20 million while others, including the IFA, believe it will cost £30 million. Has it been costed and do we know from where the funding will come? The Minister admitted he will have to go cap-in-hand to Europe to obtain money for the programme.

Another aspect to which the Minister referred was REP schemes. He stated that these will be specially formulated and advised people to become involved in them. REP schemes will last for five years but the programme has a duration of 15 years. What will happen after the initial five year period? We have not been advised on that. We are aware finance is available and Deputy O'Keeffe stated he could provide information on the additional expenditure required.

The social welfare aspect of the programme in respect of rural areas should also be considered.

Deputy Moffatt should consider it.

People are aware of the disclaimer provision. Deputy O'Keeffe was not too wide of the mark when he disclosed relevant information on that issue. The issue of over-grazing was also discussed and, as Deputy O'Keeffe stated, there are ways to circumvent this without introducing draconian regulations.

Everyone has an interest in the environment and we must laud the Minister for actions he took which will help the nation in the long-term. However, farmers, fishermen or those involved in tourism do not want to be constrained by the regulations. Deputy McDaid referred to golf courses and this issue is of interest to people in places such as Enniscrone, Bundoran and Belmullet. There are many links courses along our coastlines and further development may be in danger.

People will no longer approach the county councils for planning permission. The Departments of Agriculture, Food and Forestry and Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht will be involved in this and scientific elements will be brought into the equation. However, the meaning of "scientific criteria" has not been made clear.

The Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Culture and Gaeltacht, Deputy Carey, will be interested in my next question. How will the economy develop if there is too much red tape and too many constraints? It is fine to talk about a good environment and people are striving to achieve this. Ordinary farmers have provided the areas under discussion such as blanket bogs, etc., which are well preserved. Nevertheless, no one wishes to impose too many constraints on further development.

Debate adjourned.
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