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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Mar 1997

Vol. 476 No. 5

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take No. 12, motion re. sitting arrangements; No. 13, motion re. ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No.26, Social Welfare Bill, 1997 — Report and Final Stages; No. 27 — National Cultural Institutions Bill, 1996 [Seanad] — Report and Final Stages; No. 28, Credit Union Bill, 1996 — Second Stage (Resumed) and No. 29, Freedom of Information Bill, 1996 [Seanad] — Second Stage (Resumed). It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than midnight; Nos. 12 and 13 shall be decided without debate; the Report and Final Stages of No. 26 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Social Welfare; the Report and Final Stages of No. 27 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.15 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht; the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage of No. 28, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 11.45 p.m. tonight; the Second Stage of No.4, Landlord and Tenant (Ground Rent Abolition) Bill, 1997, shall be taken in Private Members' time today and the proceedings on the Second Stage thereof shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight; and Members shall be called on to speak in accordance with the following time-table: from 7 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. Opposition, 7.30 p.m. to 7.50 p.m. Government, 7.50 p.m. to 8.10 p.m. Opposition, 8.10 p.m. to 8.20 p.m. Government and 8.20 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. Opposition.

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for Nos. 12 and 13 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 26 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 27 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 28 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 4, Private Members' business this evening, agreed? Agreed.

Given that the Taoiseach's position on the matter has been uncertain in recent days, is it the Government's intention to call on the British Government to hold a new full-scale inquiry into the events of Bloody Sunday? The prima facie evidence which has come to light in recent months would indicate that the Widgery inquiry covered an act of state terrorism.

I am sure the matter will be addressed by way of questions. There is no change in our position. The Departments of the Taoiseach and of Foreign Affairs are assessing new information and evidence. Deputies will appreciate that the first requirement is to make sure the information and evidence is authentic. We hope to conclude our work on this in a short time and present the facts to the British Government.

Will time be provided tomorrow for the Ministers, Deputy Noonan and Deputy Howlin, to answer questions on their handling of the hepatitis C issue? Given that the Government made a commitment to be accountable, does the Tánaiste agree there should be parliamentary accountability in the House? If the Government will not provide time for questions on the matter we will not have parliamentary accountability.

My understanding of the arrangement made between the Whips is there will be a debate on this matter tomorrow and on Tuesday next. I understand the Minister for Health will take questions in the normal course of events next week.

Has the Government made a decision on what it will do tomorrow? Will it accept the principle of the Fianna Fáil motion with regard to aggravated damages?

Let us not anticipate debate on the matter.

It would be helpful to know the Government's position.

There will be ample time for Members to ventilate their views on the matter tomorrow.

The Tánaiste's answer was not satisfactory. He referred to the Minister's usual parliamentary questions on Tuesday next. He must be aware that the handling of this issue leaves much to be desired — it was mishandled by both Ministers.

It was not. The Deputy should read the tribunal's report.

I want an opportunity to put questions to the Minister.

What about parliamentary accountability?

Members must await the debate on the matter.

Will the Tánaiste agree to provide time for the Ministers to answer questions? What are they afraid of?

That is the key point.

The Deputy has already asked that question and it has been replied to.

Will the Tánaiste provide time for the Minister to answer questions?

The Deputy should read the report which exonerates both Ministers.

I have read the report.

The facts speak for themselves.

I have read what the then Minister, Deputy Howlin, told the Government at that time.

I have outlined the procedures agreed between the Whips. There will be a two day debate and the Minister for Health, Deputy Noonan, will answer questions in the usual way.

This matter has been mishandled.

That must suffice.

There will be no questions.

It is a farce.

I will hear no more on this matter. There will be ample time to debate the subject tomorrow.

The Government has tabled a "take note" motion for tomorrow. For the past five days it has been indicated in the media that there will be an amendment to this motion. Is this the case and, if not, will the Government accept the Fianna Fáil amendment in the name of Deputy Brian Cowen which proposes that the Government should accept aggravated damages?

Questions on how the debate should proceed are more appropriate for tomorrow.

I have tabled private notice questions to the Minister for Health today so that he can account to the House for the current donor selection procedures which are clearly inadequate given that last December a woman who had been contaminated with hepatitis C by the State was asked to donate blood. Even if we cannot ask questions of the two relevant Ministers, will the Minister for Health account for the inadequate donor selection procedures?

The Whips may be able to decide on this matter later. This formula has often been used by the House.

On a point of order, the Opposition Whips requested that time be provided for a question and answer session during the debate. However, the Minister has refused to answer questions and has stated that it is not his report and he answered all questions at the tribunal. In other words, he is denying accountability to Dáil Éireann for his political handling of this matter.

These views can be more effectively expressed tomorrow.

The Government will not answer questions.

All the Deputies are interested in are sound bites.

(Interruptions).

I will hear no more on this subject now. It can be discussed tomorrow.

We should know whether the Government is merely proposing a "take note" motion or if it will be accountable.

If there is nothing else relevant to the Order of Business——

For the past five days a Government spokesperson has told people in the media that it will amend the motion, yet the Minister will not answer questions in the House.

Deputy Ahern knows it is wrong to anticipate the debate on this matter tomorrow.

Will the Government make up its mind?

Wait for the debate.

All I want to know is what we will debate.

Bearing in mind that the public voted last November to change the law on bail, has the Government approved the terms of a Bill on this matter and will it be put before the public? This matter was very urgent for a long time but it seems to have been put on the back burner.

Has legislation been promised in this area?

Legislation has been promised and I think the House was informed that a general scheme had been approved by the Government on 4 March and it is with the parliamentary draftsman for final drafting.

Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

When the tribunal of inquiry into the beef——

I will hear no more on this matter.

It is a different matter.

I mean what I said.

It is a different matter.

The Deputy should not seek to circumvent my ruling.

When the Taoiseach was in Opposition he criticised the failure to provide time for questions on the beef tribunal report.

This matter will be debated tomorrow.

It is important that time is provided for questions. When the Taoiseach——

This is not Question Time.

I would like to know why the Government is afraid to answer questions on this issue.

There can be no argument about the matter now.

What is the Government afraid of?

The Deputies' questions will be answered tomorrow.

The Minister has many questions to answer.

Deputy Harney was in Government for some of that time.

Unlike the then Minister, Deputy Howlin, I did not know about the matter.

We have many questions to ask the Deputy about the matter

Will the Tánaiste ensure the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Dukes, makes available to the elected representatives of the people the report made available to the south coast television group?

The Deputy should put down a question on the matter.

The Taoiseach promised to legalise these deflector systems but he has not done so.

On the Order of Business two weeks ago the Tánaiste said everything that could be done would be done in relation to the students at the Advanced Technology College. I have received a copy of the correspondence sent by the Minister for Education to the students in which she basically said she had no plans to meet with them.

This matter has been debated in the House, sometimes in a disorderly fashion, and I do not want a repeat of it now.

I have no intention of doing so——

It would not be tolerated anyway.

——but I would like the record of the House to be corrected. During Private Members' time last week the Minister stated categorically that she had met the students.

The Deputy should find another way of dealing with the matter.

However, I now know that she did not meet them. In her one line letter she basically said she had no intention of meeting them and was ignoring their plight.

Arrogance.

Deputy Martin must learn to obey the Chair.

The record must be corrected as the Minister gave a misleading statement about her meeting with the students.

Resume your seat, Deputy Martin.

The Minister has misled the House.

Last week the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications invited submissions on the sale of part of Aer Lingus. Will the Tánaiste say if this is agreed Government policy and, if so, when the necessary legislation to give effect to this sale will be brought before the House?

This matter is more appropriate to a question.

I asked when legislation would be brought before the House.

No legislation is promised or required.

It will be done by diktat.

I draw to the Tánaiste's attention the tragic killing in Cork city during the weekend and the serious injuries suffered by another young person. The Garda Síochána has indicated that it is not legally entitled to use spike chains to stop——

The legislation has been passed.

The Chair is placed in an invidious position in ruling on this delicate matter.

Does the Government intend to introduce legislation to deal with this eventuality?

The Deputy may not raise the matter now.

It is covered by the criminal justice legislation.

This is a sensitive matter and I hesitate to rule against the Deputy but I must do so. It would be better to raise the matter by way of question at a more appropriate time.

The Deputy is asking about legislation.

It was passed two weeks ago.

I agree with the points made by the Deputy about this tragedy. The legislation has been passed by the House and the enabling provisions will become law within a matter of days.

The Government would do well to tell that to the Garda Síochána.

The Garda Síochána is certainly not aware of it.

Given that the Tánaiste is in the mood to reply to other issues, will he say when legislation will be introduced to meet the promise made by the Minister, Deputy Dukes, to sell part of Aer Lingus before the end of the year?. I want to make it clear that Members on this side of the House do not agree to the sale of any part of Aer Lingus.

That is not Deputy Brennan's view.

Deputy Brennan does not share that view.

(Interruptions).

The north side eight are in favour of selling it.

The Tánaiste has not responded.

The north side eight are selling part of the company by stealth.

(Interruptions).

This is all very good fun but it is neither orderly nor dignified.

Given that we are preparing for a very important debate tomorrow, will the Tánaiste respond to the invitation issued by my party leader to provide time for questions?

The Deputy knows full well that I have ruled on that matter.

I am seeking your guidance, a Cheann Comhairle, on that decision.

My guidance is that the Deputy will have ample time to deliberate on this matter tomorrow.

As a Member of the House it is not discourteous of me to ask the Tánaiste to indicate whether it is——

The question has been asked and it has been commented on by the Tánaiste.

May I complete my point?

It is not in order.

I am not trying to be disorderly.

I said earlier I would hear no more on this matter until tomorrow.

If you allow me to speak, my point will become clear.

The Deputy is clearly seeking to circumvent my ruling. I am too long in this Chair to suffer that kind of indignity.

I have too much respect for the Chair to do that. May I ask the Tánaiste to indicate to the House that he is prepared, as a result of what has been said here this morning, to speak to the Taoiseach——

I have gone so far, Deputy Cowen, as to say it might be a matter on which the Whips could decide.

We have a leader in the country. Would the Tánaiste be prepared to reconsider the Government position, given the Taoiseach's position as leader?

I have heard the Deputy. He will now desist from any further comment on the matter and resume his seat.

I am sure the Tánaiste is anxious to ensure the accountability he sought in this House at one time will be maintained.

Deputy Cowen, this is grossly disorderly.

Answering questions was a matter this Administration——

Deputy Cowen must now resume his seat or leave the House.

Those are the words of the Tánaiste.

It is a fair point.

Deputy Cowen, resume your seat.

On a point of order, there is a motion on the Order Paper on the blood tribunal report.

That is for tomorrow.

Will that motion be debated? There is a suggestion the Government intends to withdraw that motion and amend it. We have put down an amendment, and we would like some clarification from the Tánaiste on the matter.

It can be clarified tomorrow.

Is it a case that the Government does not know what it will do on this? Was there a meeting this morning?

We had a meeting.

On the Family Law (Amendment) Bill, is there a problem in the office of the Attorney General about that legislation? Have outside sources contacted the Attorney General's office? Has the Government sought the advice of the Attorney General, because it appears that marriages made are null——

I want to help the Deputy but I would prefer if he found a more appropriate time to raise the matter. It sounds like a good question, Deputy.

It is a question on legislation. Has the Government sought the advice of the Attorney General regarding marriages made in a district other than the district of registry?

The Deputy may not elaborate. Is there legislation in this area?

I will communicate with the Deputy.

There has been a problem.

(Interruptions).

Will the Tánaiste accept that the new evidence on Bloody Sunday is so strong that he should immediately call for a public inquiry and not allow the British Government off the hook on this issue? The Tánaiste has replied but not satisfactorily on this issue.

The Deputy should sit down and stop posturing.

We have heard the Tánaiste's views. Will he now call for a public inquiry?

Another time, Deputy Kitt.

With regard to an issue on which there is unanimity in this House, will the Tánaiste comment on the decision of the British Environment Secretary, John Gummer, to reject the appeal by Nirex to build an underground nuclear waste dump?

Not now, Deputy.

If Deputy Ryan were speaking to the Tánaiste, he would tell him about that.

(Interruptions).

I compliment the Government——

I am calling Deputy Martin.

What about Aer Lingus?

I would expect Deputy Martin to respect the Chair in the first instance. Has the Deputy a matter appropriate to the Order of Business?

Will the Tánaiste indicate if we will have a statement at some stage today on the industrial relations dispute in Athlone, and the impact on this year's leaving certificate examination?

I am calling Deputy de Valera in respect to item No. 11.

Has the Government decided to suspend the proceedings of the Judge McCracken tribunal in the event of an election to safeguard the integrity of the tribunal and the political system?

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