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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Mar 1997

Vol. 477 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Protection of Workers (Shops) Bill, 1996: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to this important Bill. As Deputy Tom Kitt said, retailing trading hours have expanded inexorably over the past few decades. Most of us welcome the opportunity to avail of early morning and late evening opening hours for shopping. We do not support what this Bill is designed to pre-empt, which is the steady encroachment of shopping on Sundays due to recent developments and the deterioration of working conditions which the extension of retail opening hours can mean.

This Bill is designed to allow sufficient flexibility for the employer to run his or her business without undue constraint, while balancing the rights of the employee. I compliment Deputy Tom Kitt on initiating this legislation. He has addressed this issue for a considerable length of time and engaged in widespread consultation on the matter.

I welcome the Government's indication that it accepts the principles underlying the legislation introduced by Deputy Kitt, the Fianna Fáil spokesperson on Labour Affairs. Unfortunately, it seems that once again Fianna Fáil has had to prompt the Minister to take action. Even if the impetus came from the Opposition, the assent of the Government is nonetheless welcome.

The indication by some larger retail stores that they intended to open on Easter Sunday drew our attention to the relentless extension of trading hours. I do not think anyone will feel deprived in restraining themselves from heading to the shopping centre that day. We may be living in a period where there has been a healthy growth in the economy and where some of those in employment enjoy increased purchasing power, but an increase in discretionary spending is precisely that.

For most people, extra resources are spent on cars, furniture, holidays and other goods and services which we buy or refrain from buying, depending on the structure of the family budget. The most visible expansion of trading, particularly in Sunday retailing, has been in the supermarket sector and shopping centres, of which a food market is the anchor attraction. An increase in purchasing power generally is not strongly reflected in increased spending on food.

The demand for supermarket goods is much less elastic than for other products and services. The extension of opening hours is not likely to make an impact on overall turnover in that sector. Even if supermarkets were open and available for business 24 hours a day, seven days a week, the expenditure in total on food items is unlikely to expand significantly. The overall profitability of stores will not increase proportionate to the extension of opening hours, neither will the remuneration of staff.

The thrust of the Bill is not to curtail retailing on Sundays, although there are valid grounds for reservations. I hold strong reservations on the idea of widespread Sunday shopping. Many people have genuine religious objections which should be respected. Others hold that Sunday is a time for rest and recreation, attending and participating in sporting events and spending time with the family. It does not have to be a time for shopping.

More importantly, many feel that Sunday is not a day on which they should have to go to work. Nonetheless, staff of supermarkets who are required to work on Sundays undoubtedly feel they have little choice. The retail trade uses part-time and casual employment to an increasing extent. Part-time and casual employees feel or can be made to feel that they are ten a penny and that if they are not cheerfully available for work on Sundays, others will and that, ultimately, those reluctant to volunteer for Sunday working will find themselves eased out on Mondays or Tuesdays as a result.

The Bill does not preclude Sunday opening. It leaves operators of retail outlets and their customers with a choice. What is important is that it also gives staff a choice. Recent Governments have put many Bills through the House to legislate for equality in a wide range of areas and some have made great play of their endeavours in this regard. The Government has an opportunity to ensure that, within reason, those who choose to keep Sunday free to rest, study and participate in sport do not suffer discrimination vis-à-vis those who do not.

The provision in section 6 (2) is designed to ensure that workers who give up their Sundays to facilitate trading on that day are appropriately remunerated. There are very few professions — membership of this House is one of the exceptions — where Sunday working is not remunerated over and above the level of compensation for normal shifts or unsocial hours. Neither the proprietors of retail outlets, nor the public whom they claim Sunday trading is designed to serve, have any grounds for complaint in this regard. If my impressions are incorrect, that Sunday trading boosts the revenues of retail outlets choosing to open, the benefits should be shared with the employees who make it possible.

Another area where I see severe repercussions, particularly for rural areas, is the increasing attraction of multiple stores sited nowadays in most provincial centres. The capacity of those stores to remain open for extensive hours puts undue pressure on smaller stores, particularly family run shops and businesses. In recent years there has been a marvellous upgrading of stores, pubs, shops, hotels and other businesses in rural areas. Great credit is due to those who have to contend with severe competition due to the huge extension of the network of multiple stores.

I have tabled numerous parliamentary questions to the Minister for Finance on the inequity in the system of rateable valuation of premises. When a premises is renovated or extensive improvements are carried out, the rateable valuation is increased. This is wrong as it acts as a disincentive. In most cases the enhancement work or upgrading of premises is necessary to retain existing business, let alone attract additional business. It is wrong that those with initiative and commitment to improve premises, often in small towns, villages and rural areas, should be penalised in this way while there are substantial tax incentives available to start business in some large urban areas.

The response of the Minister for Finance to my questions on each occasion did not, unfortunately, convey any indication that such penalties and disincentives would be removed. I appeal to the Minister of State whose portfolio is an economic one to at least recognise the difficulties that exist for smaller stores in towns, villages and rural areas, as well as suburban areas of the larger urban centres, and to have a system devised under which the person who invests heavily in upgrading a business premises is not penalised for so doing while there are favourable incentives available to big business to locate in certain urban areas.

The draw of business from smaller towns and villages is a source of concern to all interested in the future well-being of rural areas. Major disruption can occur in the organisation of community and sporting activities when young people feel compelled to work on some Sundays. Football and hurling clubs and other sporting bodies in rural areas have a small number of people on which to draw. Any further infringement on traditional Sunday activities will not benefit local communities.

Since December 1994 Fianna Fáil has been one of the most constructive and responsible Oppositions in the history of the State. It has engaged in healthy democratic debate and in healthy criticism of the Government, when necessary. It has given broad support to the Government, where appropriate. I compliment Deputy Kitt on producing this Bill. The Fianna Fáil Party has produced more Private Members' Bills and well researched and substantial policy documents than any previous Opposition. When Deputy Bertie Ahern is elected Taoiseach in a short time, Fianna Fáil in Government will be willing to take on board the valid views and concerns of the Government parties which will then be in Opposition.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Costello.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure that is in order and agreed.

Until Deputy Smith spoke I was confused as to when exactly the general election will be called. He has an amazing ability to convince himself that, when returned to Government in the distant future, Fianna Fáil will listen, legislate and care.

I do not have to be persuaded.

This must surely mean he is convinced an election is looming.

Is the Deputy not convinced?

He devoted three minutes in a worthwhile debate, which I have been seeking for the past two years, to a party political broadcast on his own behalf and that of the Fianna Fáil Party. Was this time well spent?

The Deputy never mentions Democratic Left in her contributions.

I do not doubt the sincerity of the mover of the Bill, Deputy Tom Kitt, whom I congratulate and with whom I have been discussing this issue, in which I have a great interest, for the past two years, since the multiples began to trade on Sundays. Traditionally, Sunday trading has been confined to corner shops, news-agents, pubs and garden centres. The Bill gives us a huge opportunity to regulate this area of activity. The Government is not opposing the Bill on which, I am sure the Deputy accepts, some work remains to be done. During the past two years Sunday trading by the large multiples has become the norm rather than the exception. I welcome the strong and unambiguous stance taken by my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, in favour of regulating Sunday trading and Sunday work. This is vitally important as we sometimes separate Sunday trading from Sunday work and seem to think the work gets done by itself.

There are two issues at stake here, first, the right of workers not to be constrained to work on Sunday and, second, whether Sunday should be turned into yet another shopping day. I know Deputy Kitt shares my view that this should not happen. The Bill addresses the issue of workers' protection. In many ways the progressive attitude taken by Deputy Kitt is entirely different from the attitude taken by the Fianna Fáil Party to the working time legislation which was debated recently. If one takes the comments by the previous speaker as true, then these political inconsistencies will not appear any more and Fianna Fáil as a party will listen. It is a pity that Fianna Fáil does not listen to Deputy Kitt more often.

I welcome the effort put in by Deputy Kitt in bringing the Bill before the House. I also welcome the opportunity to debate some of the changes in retailing in general. There are flaws in the legislation but this is probably due to a lack of facilities in terms of drafting and too hasty drafting rather than a lack of commitment to this area by Deputy Kitt whose bona fides are beyond question.

Section 3 exempts relatives, those living in the house of the employer and those working less than eight hours per week from the terms of the Bill. I assume the reasoning behind this exemption is to facilitate small family run shops.

That is correct.

I agree that such shops which are already battling against competition from the multiples should be facilitated to the greatest extent possible. However, I am concerned that this exemption could militate against young people and part-time women workers, many of whom may work less than eight hours per week and still wish to spend Sunday with their families. This matter can be discussed in greater detail on Committee Stage.

One of the reasons many women take up part-time or casual work is that they want to combine the time they spend with their families with work outside the home. It is essential that statutory provision does not prove counterproductive in this regard. Section 5 stipulates that employees shall not be discriminated against on foot of a refusal to work on Sunday. However, the Bill does not refer to potential employees, those who indicate during interviews that they do not wish to work on Sundays. I appreciate that employers must take flexibility into account when employing workers and I hope this section will be examined on Committee Stage with a view to incorporating some form of anti-discrimination protection for job applicants.

Section 7 stipulates that employers who require employees to perform Sunday work should inform employees of this by means of a notice placed in a window or other prominent place four days in advance. While this may be regarded as a technicality, it is possible that part-time workers who work after a certain time may not see a notice. All reasonable steps should be taken to inform employees who may not see the notice.

Section 9 deals with redress and the role of the rights commissioner. We must ensure that an employee who makes a complaint to the rights commissioner is not discriminated against. This provision mirrors the provision in the employment equality legislation. This is another matter which can be debated in detail on Committee Stage.

The broader issues surrounding Sunday trading have not been dealt with in legislation — this point has been made by Deputy Kitt and me for many years — apart from the 1938 Act, the relevant Parts of which were effectively suspended by the Minister of the day. Ireland is the only EU country with no effective legislation governing hours of trading, particularly trading on Sunday and public holidays. It is unacceptable that the way should be left open for a few powerful retailers rather than elected legislators to set the agenda on this issue. The current legislation leaves us in a vacuum and is fast leading to a Sunday free-for-all. The victims of such a free-for-all will inevitably be the weaker players in the retail scene, small and medium sized shops many of which perform a vital role in their community.

Dunnes Stores led the way in 1994 by opening 15 of their shops on Sunday and public holidays. Since then Sunday trading seems to have become an integral part of modern life. According to all available evidence, this has resulted in a noticeable reduction in the trade of other retailers on subsequent days. I welcome the decision by Dunnes Stores, in the face of considerable public pressure, not to open on Easter Sunday. However, what about Christmas this year and Easter next year? What about all the other stores? If we are to ensure that Sunday and public holidays are maintained as days when families rather than cash tills dominate then we must ensure that legislative pressure is brought to bear not only on Dunnes Stores but on all the multiples.

Small and medium sized retailers are already bearing the economic brunt of social change and corner shops are finding it increasingly difficult to compete with large chain stores. Every town has boarded up shop fronts, and we can only guess at the consequent job losses. Workers in the retail sector already see their jobs threatened by "fire as you like" casual labour. In Dunnes Stores less than 10 per cent of staff were full-time in 1995. Despite strike action, protracted negotiations and Labour Court recommendations there has been little substantial improvement in that area. This Bill will go some way towards addressing the concerns of workers employed by large multiples. However, it is a first step and should be seen as such.

I would welcome an assurance that the Government intends to introduce its own legislation or regulation under the 1938 Act at the earliest opportunity to address the substantive issue of trading on Sunday and public holidays. In this context, the position adopted by MANDATE is reasonable and reasoned. It demands that Sunday trading and trading on public holidays be regulated rather than banned outright. At a minimum, such legislation should regulate the hours during which Sunday and holiday trading can occur in stores above a given size. On the Continent stores above a certain floor area cannot open on Sundays or public holidays. As someone recently suggested, we could introduce a quota system whereby multiples could open for a certain number of Sundays every year on a similar basis as extensions are given to various pubs and places of entertainment. Seasonal and regional adjustments could also be taken into account in deciding this issue.

Unregulated Sunday trading disrupts not only workers' lives but also the lives of their families and those who work in the supply area. The bottom line is that if Sunday trading is allowed to continue unhindered it will fundamentally alter the family-centred culture of this country not only for the workers directly affected but also for the families encouraged to spend yet another day dragging trolleys around shopping centres. I have heard it said that people shop on Sunday because it is the only time of the week they can do so, it is convenient and they can take their families with them. However, no consideration is given to the men and women working behind the counter, stacking shelves or helping them with their queries who cannot spend time with their families. This is a selfish and unreasonable attitude. Most multiples open until 9 p.m. on Thursday and Friday and this gives people who work from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. ample time to do their shopping.

There is only a demand for Sunday trading in so far as, according to one of the most perverse laws of human nature, demand expands to meet supply. I do not believe there is a need for families to go on major shopping expeditions on Sundays or public holidays. It is the multiples who are demanding this.

The introduction of legislation to curtail Sunday trading will be a step towards supporting families. We must remember it is not just social legislation that impacts on family life, but economics. This legislation will safeguard the position of small retailers who are already finding it difficult to compete with the large multiples. If that is not done, permanent jobs will be lost and increasing numbers of workers will be forced to depend on casual employment. They will not know on any day whether they will have work for the following day.

I welcome this long overdue Bill which provides an ideal opportunity for debate. I congratulate Deputy Kitt on its introduction.

I was interested to hear my colleague, Deputy Lynch, congratulate Deputy Kitt on his sincerity and the fact that he is not quite like the rest of the people in Fianna Fáil. I admire Deputy Kitt's sincerity and commitment on most occasions, but I am not sure I can give the same plaudits today because not long ago Deputy Kitt and his colleagues opposed the Organisation of Working Time Bill introduced by the Minister of State for labour affairs, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, to implement the working time directive, which applies to all EU countries, thereby consolidating legislation enacted over a period of 60 years covering industrial relations and protection for workers.

The attitude expressed by Fianna Fáil at that time was virtually contrary to the protection the Minister of State was enshrining for workers. The 48 hour week was vehemently opposed by Fianna Fáil, despite the fact that only 5 per cent to 6 per cent of the labour force was affected. Fianna Fáil opposed that Bill on the spurious grounds that it would in some way undermine our competitiveness on the international front. That is not the case.

Multinationals set up in this country because we provide attractive packages including excellent educational measures. We have a good work morale and code, and it is extremely important that arrangements and regulations are put in place for both employers and employees. It was irresponsible of Fianna Fáil to attempt to put in place a measure whereby people would work for 60 or 70 hours per week. That compares closely with what is happening in Britain which opposed the Social Charter and which is trying to establish a work ethic on a parallel with many Third World countries and the sweatshops of the Far East. I was very disappointed with the attitude adopted by Fianna Fáil on that occasion.

This Bill is an exercise in opportunism. Fianna Fáil is currently producing legislation like confetti. We have seen more Private Members' legislation from that party in the past few months than it produced when in Government. From that point of view, I cannot give my wholehearted support to Deputy Kitt on the timing of the Bill, although I support the principle of the legislation.

The Bill essentially concerns Sunday trading and the large multinationals. Sunday trading takes place at all levels including small corner shops, hotels, etc. The principle of whether that is a desirable development has been subject to considerable debate over recent months and years. The Archbishop of Dublin states regularly that it is contrary to Catholic practice, that Sunday is a day of rest and should remain sacred. I am inclined to agree with him.

It is important that one day in the week should be identified as a day for relaxation and adhering to religious duties or other practices. It must be recognised, however, that seven day trading has become the norm in many areas including the public service, utilities, agriculture, and the hotel and catering industries, but it is increasingly becoming the norm in relation to industrial production. Factory workers now work on a 24 hour basis, and approximately 36 per cent of the work-force is engaged in that type of seven day activity. It is important to regulate that across the board.

In addition to dedicating one day in the week as a day of rest, we have moved towards making Saturday a second rest day, thereby enabling people to engage in a range of activities over an extended period. The seven day trading development does not make that proposal very practical. I am particularly concerned about the effect of seven day trading on small shops throughout the country. If the multiples open on Sundays on a regular basis, people might be inclined to do their weekly shopping on that day as they would have more time. That would take away from the business done by small shops on a day to day basis, an issue on which RGDATA would have strong views. I have no doubt it would put a question mark over the ability of many small family businesses to continue in operation. It is important that would be regulated in a proper fashion both in terms of its operation, the hours worked by employees and the payment they receive.

I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, on the provisions in the working time legislation. That is the reason I regard this as opportunistic legislation. If people were serious about protecting the rights of workers, they should have waited until the working time Bill had been passed because that enshrines many of the principles and provisions in this legislation. If Fianna Fáil was serious about protecting the rights of workers they would have waited for that Bill to be passed into legislation because it enshrines many of the principles in this legislation. Voluntary Sunday work is covered by the legislation unless it is otherwise prescribed by contract, and if somebody is required to work on a Sunday, a Sunday premium is established in the legislation, a built-in pay structure which is appropriate to Sunday working. We cannot cogently examine the possibility of including a voluntary opt-out clause until we see the final form of the Organisation of Working Time Bill.

The organisation of working time legislation also provides for rest periods and a reduction in the amount of time any person is required to work in a given week. Unfortunately, we got no support from Fianna Fáil on that issue. The Bill provides for an increase in annual leave from 15 to 20 days. Equally important, there is a pro rata increase for part-time workers. One of the benefits of the new legislation is its recognition that an increasing proportion of the labour force is now engaged in part-time work. In the past eight years the percentage of workers in part-time employment has gone up from 8.5 per cent to 13.8 per cent. It is extremely important, therefore, that we provide pro rata protection for those workers. This is being done through the Organisation of Working Time Bill, but there was very little support for the Minister and the Government in progressing those measures. The obvious time to introduce a Bill dealing with retailing would be when the Organisation of Working Time Bill has been finalised.

The zero hour contract, the banning of which was a key demand of the MANDATE trade union, was a major bone of contention in the Dunnes' Stores industrial action. This will now be enshrined in legislation.

Deputy Kitt's Bill proposes that nobody should be obliged to work on a Sunday and shall not be discriminated against if they decide not to. The outlawing of discrimination is being enshrined in various legislation currently being introduced by the Minister for Equality and Law Reform. The provision for payment rates of at least time and a half for Sunday working is welcome. This is reflected in the Organisation of Working Time Bill in which it is provided that a special premium should be paid for Sunday working and that four days' notice should be given by an employer if he wants somebody to work on a Sunday or by an employee if he or she cannot work on the following Sunday. A right of appeal to the Rights Commissioner in respect of complaints may or may not be an appropriate mechanism, but we do need an appeal mechanism.

Deputy Kitt tabled an amendment to the Organisation of Working Time Bill both as an individual Deputy and in conjunction with other Deputies in relation to a voluntary opt-out clause. The mechanism enshrined in the Minister's legislation is the correct one. An opt-out mechanism can work only if it is backed up by a collective approach. If there is not a collective arrangement on an industrial basis, it would be hard to support an individual option to opt out. A person could be extremely vulnerable in such a situation. It would be very difficult to legislate against the possibility of discrimination against a person who voluntarily opts out, and discrimination can take many forms. Some amendment in respect of that protection would be required. Perhaps the Deputy would accept the principle in the Organisation of Working Time Bill.

It is important that Sunday trading is regulated and that workers are protected in that respect. The Deputy has provided a measure to do that. Many of the provisions of this Bill are already overlapped by the organisation of working time legislation. I hope to see that legislation in operation, at which time we can look at Deputy Kitt's legislation to see what measures have been dealt with and what measures remain to be dealt with and amend the Bill accordingly.

On a point of information, Deputy Costello mentioned it was opportunistic of our party and of Deputy Tom Kitt to introduce this Bill now. The Bill was introduced last November. I was with Deputy Kitt in the Shelbourne Hotel when he presented it. It was moved here in the Dáil, and we were awaiting an opportunity to have it taken in the House.

There was plenty of opportunity to present it before now.

It was prepared and presented to the public last November.

We are having two debates on this matter. The wider debate is about the very vexed question of Sunday trading which is not amenable to a straightforward solution. The Minister of State inherited an IPC report commissioned by me and which was produced just before Fianna Fáil left office. Subsequently during the course of the two by-elections the Minister for Finance, Deputy Quinn, gave a commitment to MANDATE that the issue of Sunday trading would be addressed, and I got a letter this morning enclosing one of the letters he sent to a MANDATE official in Cork in which he gave a commitment to address the matter.

On the wider issue of Sunday trading, it is not a question to which there is a neat answer with which everybody in the land agrees. Many issues come into it, including the wishes of people who find Sunday trading suits their circumstances. Husbands and wives or partners, family and children go out together to make a social occasion of doing Sunday shopping, usually in one of the large multiples.

There is also the question of what is happening in Europe with regard to Sunday trading. Different regimes operate there, some more regulated than others. Consumer needs and demands must be taken into account. People need a time of rest and they need time for their various forms of worship. Those of us who go to one church may do so on Saturday night while other churches have their own arrangements. There are also people who do not wish to go to church. All those complexities must be taken into account. To say that Sunday trading is an issue that can be addressed simplistically is incorrect, and we have never sought to do so. My colleague, Deputy Tom Kitt, has always been aware, as I have, that this issue will not be easily resolved.

We are concerned about multinationals, particularly the take-over by Tesco of the Quinnsworth chain and its effects on employment and on small firms throughout the country that supply the goods. This evening I will meet people from Tesco in the UK and I will be interested to hear what they have to say. As well as the invidious position of large multiples, we must also consider the corner stores, which everybody accepts should open on Sundays, and public houses, which are exempt from the provisions of the Bill and which are usually the haven of the male on Sunday afternoon. All those issues must be taken into consideration in regard to Sunday trading.

That is the wider debate, but the more focused debate today is the Protection of Workers (Shops) Bill, 1996. I applaud my colleague, Deputy Tom Kitt, who worked on this matter for the past 12 months or more and Deputy Bertie Ahern for giving him full rein in that regard. Deputy Costello may think we are being opportunistic, but it is timely that this Bill is being taken and we applaud the Minister for accepting it in an open fashion. That receptiveness has much to do with the fact that we are approaching a general election.

I will always do a favour for an old friend and constituency colleague.

This outbreak of goodwill is too much for me. I wish to address the predatory nature of the Minister with responsibility for commerce, science and technology who has taken unto himself powers unknown to man or woman in this land. He is the authority on everything. I call him the Marjorie Proops — God rest her soul — of the Government. He spoke for half an hour on Radio Ireland this morning and gave opinions on everything. If you have a problem, ring Deputy Rabbitte, alias Marjorie Proops, and he will answer your problem on Radio Ireland, for free, I presume.

On the radio this morning he gave detailed opinions on Sunday trading and on this Bill. He believes there is need for separate legislation for the protection of workers and that that would be in place before the general election. He said that Dunnes Stores were not to trade on Easter Sunday and they said they would not do so. The powers and capabilities, but most of all the predatory nature of our Marjorie Proops, are evident. He talked, as he thought, in a funny, irreverent, supercilious way about my colleague, Deputy Tom Kitt, who gave the perfect riposte yesterday in the Dáil. He talked about ample brain, and one does not wish to be personal, but ample neck and perhaps avoirdupois would be entirely suitable for the said Marjorie Proops.

The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, should assert herself because her Department is a hotbed of intrigue and intrusion — I am not talking about the public service but the political machinations in the Department of Enterprise and Employment.

I am well able to look after that.

I am aware of that.

We are trying to help the Minister.

I am referring to the unclearly defined responsibilities of various Ministers. The fact that Deputy Rabbitte is allowed sit at the Cabinet table allows him to run free when out of Cabinet. I encountered similar issues and I am aware that one must listen to everything and act accordingly, but that Minister certainly stole a march on this issue. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, has however asserted herself and I commend her on that.

It is appropriate we are debating this Bill today. It is interesting that on another issue, hepatitis C, debate on which will continue to rage because in the main a group of women was involved, efforts were made to dismiss it as a woman's issue and marginalise the case made. Similarly, shopworkers are mainly female, but because part time work suits females — their lifestyles allow for other activities — that does not mean they should not receive proper pay or that proper provision should not be made for them. The fact that many female shopworkers are suitable, available, ready and willing does not mean they should have to operate in an unregulated environment. There is a definite need to define their working hours and their rates of pay, particularly for Sunday work, and that is what Deputy Kitt has done in this Bill. With the incursion of British stores, it is important that workers be given proper status.

Young women from large supermarkets in Athlone and Mullingar tell me that the worst part of their job is not knowing when they will be called upon. Many of them have domestic responsibilities, with children and, in some cases, parents to care for. They also wish for a social life, which is admirable, but that is difficult in the circumstances. Nurses on temporary lists also have to wait for the call to their local hospital. It is usually women who are involved in these cases. When we think back to World War I and World War II, women were called away from factories and shops to work in munitions firms, and when the war was over they were patted on the head and told that we would not have won the war without them. Women are treated like goods on supermarkets shelves, they are also expendable. That is not the correct way to treat people. Shop workers, who are mainly women, should be treated with respect. Sean Lemass introduced the 1938 legislation, but it was not implemented because of an outcry from publicans. MANDATE gave me a copy of that Bill, which I read with interest. As a Dublin man, Sean Lemass was always interested in workers' rights.

I commend the Bill and congratulate Deputy Kitt on introducing it. I also commend the Minister of State for accepting it. I am sure Deputy Kitt will be anxious to know if she will table amendments on Committee Stage. While the political future is uncertain in that we do not know when the election will be held, the outcome is not uncertain. We look forward to dealing with the wider contextual issue of Sunday trading, which will not be amenable to pat answers. The Minister of State with responsibility for science and technology, Deputy Rabbitte — our Marjorie Proops — should do the work for which he was appointed and leave other matters to those appointed to deal with them.

I compliment my colleague, Deputy Kitt, on the successful manner in which he introduced the Bill and the wisdom of the Government in accepting it. However, I am concerned the Government may fall before it is enacted.

There are pros and cons to Sunday working. Because of the nature of their business, many retail industries have to work on Sundays and in most cases the employers and employees involved reach an amicable agreement. However, in recent times major problems have arisen in regard to compulsory Sunday working, particularly in the grocery sector. This is the main reason Fianna Fáil introduced this legislation. In general, employees in the grocery sector are young females between the ages of 18 and 20. For many of them it is their first job and they want to impress their employers. However, they also want time off for a social life and weekend work and late night openings on Thursday and Friday interfere with that. I note from recent newspaper advertisements that late openings have been extended to include Wednesday nights. Young people often feel intimidated into working unsocial hours and Sunday trading causes major problems for them.

It is extraordinary that up to now legislation did not cover such trading. The Select Committee of Enterprise and Economic Strategy has been discussing Committee Stage of the Organisation of Working Time Bill. I am disappointed the Government excluded the voluntary opt-out clause. Acceptance of our amendment on Committee Stage would have satisfied workers in that regard, but the Government decided not to accept it. As a result, we had no option but to introduce this Bill.

It was amusing to listen to the Minister of State with responsibility for science and technology, Deputy Rabbitte, lecture all and sundry on radio over the past few weeks on everything from the price of the pint to the price of insurance. He appears to be an expert on every trade. I was disappointed he attacked Dunnes Stores, one of two supermarket chains that is 100 per cent Irish owned. While I have no reason to defend Dunnes Stores, it was reacting to an English based company, Marks and Spencers, opening on Easter Sunday. However, the Minister did not mention that company in his radio interview.

Over the past 20 years many new shopping centres have been built, mainly in the Dublin area. When a dispute arises involving the anchor tenant in such centres, many people do not use the centre. Consequently, the smaller units — many of whom involve sole traders or family businesses — are severely affected.

The standard of goods on sale and the manner in which they are displayed has improved greatly in recent years. All aspects of retailing have changed and the standards here are as good if not better than those that apply in many retail groups in Britain.

I am concerned the ongoing dispute with environmental health officers will escalate. The ramifications of an escalation in this dispute will affect the retail grocery sector. Because of the enormous input environmental health officers have in overseeing and policing aspects of our food industry, the Government should look seriously at how it can resolve this difficult dispute.

In recent months we have been concerned about BSE and its effect on our food industry. If a knock on effect of the environmental health officers dispute is to highlight deficiencies in the food chain which are not being tackled, we will face a problem which will have to be addressed sooner rather than later. I ask the Government to try to bring the parties together to resolve this problem.

Deputy Kitt's Bill aims to protect shop workers. The unions, which have had long discussions with the Deputy, fully support the Bill, and the case they made is not unreasonable. Everyone accepts that shops see the run up to Christmas as a time to increases their turnover and that much of their business is done in the three to four weeks before Christmas and during other holiday periods. It is right that Sunday trading should be allowed on those occasions. It should, however, be done with the agreement of staff, who are not unreasonable. They do their job in their interests, that of their employment and that of providing a service to the public, which appreciates it. If, with the agreement of unions and employers, Sunday trading is extended beyond Christmas and other holiday periods, except Easter Sunday, it will become a social occasion where the public will be able to browse through shopping centres. At this time of the year many husbands enjoy visiting DIY stores.

It would be wrong if shops and shopping centres remained open on Sundays without the agreement of staff. This free for all, which has developed and which has been highlighted recently by some English stores that wish to open on Easter Sunday, is worrying. This development met with an understandable negative reaction, not only from a large section of employees but also from concerned members of the public. There was also a negative reaction from smaller retail trading units which must open if an anchor unit in a shopping centre decides to trade. Such shops have no option but to open and pay the costs involved. In many cases, it is unprofitable for small units to open and trade on Sunday.

I question the wisdom of Sunday trading as only a certain amount of money is spent in a given week. If one divides the amount over seven days, the same amount of money will be spent, so why not condense it into six days for most of the year?

The ever increasing casualisation of the trade in the absence of legislation will condemn a further generation of workers, usually young females, to uncertainty. It is time we introduced legislation to ensure their rights are protected. The Bill, which has rightly been accepted by the Government, is a protective measure and if it becomes law it will protect the rights of workers in retail outlets. I would not like Sunday working to become compulsory or obligatory, as it is at present. It should be optional for employees. This Government, which claims to be concerned about workers' rights, has turned its back on the thousands of workers in this sector who, under existing legislation, are obliged to work on Sundays.

The main provisions of the Bill are that a shop worker shall not be obliged to work on Sunday without his or her consent, which is a basic right for any employee, and that an employee who works on a Sunday will be paid not less than time and a half for Sunday work. For employees who opt to work on Sunday, employers should give the employee notice of the work schedule not less than four days before Sunday work. It is only fair and reasonable that if an employee must work on a Sunday, they should be able to make arrangements well in advance. This aspect of the Bill deals with the unacceptable use of zero hour contracts, which have a part to play in current work practices in this sector.

I am delighted that MANDATE and RGDATA, which represent small shop owners, have welcomed this Fianna Fáil Bill and are encouraged by the fact the Government has decided to take it on board. Workers in the retail sector will be pleased.

I understand from my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, that I made remarks on this issue during the week which could be taken as a reflection on Deputy Tom Kitt. That was not my intention and I apologise to him and withdraw any such remark.

I welcome this Bill because Sunday trading by the large multiples is all too pervasive. I do not believe there is widespread public demand for this extent of Sunday shopping. The question of widespread shopping on Easter Sunday is over the top. I received a letter from Dunnes Stores last night which states:

The Board of Dunnes Stores last week, considered carefully your appeal and the opinions of others, that it was not in the public interest for retail outlets to trade on Easter Sunday.

As a result, the Board announced last Thursday, that plans for trading on Easter Sunday had been changed and that no Dunnes Stores would now be open on that day, as had always been the case in previous years.

Dunnes Stores went on to argue that I placed it in an invidious position vis-à-vis other stores, a point made by Deputy Nolan. I do not accept that. I spoke to Brown Thomas, Marks and Spencers and Debenhams. Brown Thomas agreed not to trade on Easter Sunday, as planned, and the other two companies pointed out that they come into this country on certain understandings. They assert they have collective agreement for voluntary working on Sunday and that they are monitoring the situation. I do not accept the charge that I placed Dunnes Stores in an invidious position.

I would like to tell Deputy O'Rourke that my responsibility in this area arises from existing legislation which permits the Government to regulate Sunday opening, Shops (Hours of Trading) Act, 1938. This Act contains elaborate provisions prohibiting Sunday trading subject to certain exemptions and it exempts certain classes of business. My colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, dealt at some length with the legal advice we have on that and I do not have time to cover it now. The Minister of State also dealt at some length with the measures she enshrined in the Organisation of Working Time Bill which deals with many of MANDATE's concerns on this. The remaining issue is Sunday opt out which is what interests me about Deputy Tom Kitt's Bill. A strong case can be made for it as it does not oblige workers to work on Sunday but legally buttresses their right to opt out of it. It is necessary bearing in mind the conditions in some employments in this trade.

I was surprised by Deputy O'Rourke's intervention and the personal descriptions she gave the House of my ample frame. She reminds me of Hettie the hen, so I am delighted she has let Deputy Kitt out from under her apron strings on this occasion. She made a rambling and meandering contribution dealing with the role of women in the trenches in the two world wars and said nothing about the merits of Deputy Kitt's Bill or the stance of the Minister of State, Deputy Fitzgerald. She spoke of the paranoia she felt in my Department when she was not permitted to engage in some of her more madcap ideas. She also spoke about my recent successes on a number of issues on radio and elsewhere. One cannot go to a radio station these days but Deputy O'Rourke is ahead of one begging to be interviewed. She has radio producers driven crazy asking to be interviewed on anything under the sun. She believes herself qualified to speak on any subject whereas she possesses a very limited area of expertise.

I am delighted to have this brief opportunity to support Deputy Kitt on the critical aspect of Sunday opt-out. If industrial relations were working perfectly in this trade, we might not need the Bill. There is a role for industrial relations in ameliorating the conditions which affect workers in this situation. It is right the Bill should be allowed to proceed to Committee Stage and we will see what we can do to accommodate it as outlined by the Minister of State, Deputy Fitzgerald.

I acknowledge the apology of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, for any over the top comments he may have made about me. I have known him since before we were elected to this House and we were members of local authorities in Dublin. I do not want to be a killjoy as regards the witty comments of the Minister of State as he has a reputation in watering holes such as Doheny and Nesbitt's as being very entertaining company and I ask him to continue and not to let us interfere with his witty character. However, there is a thin line between witticisms, wisecracks and good political banter and personalised attacks. We enjoy the colourful behaviour of the Minister of State here, but he has gone over the top on more than one occasion and the most infamous of these was his famous remark in Opposition that he had information which would rock the foundations of the State.

It rocked the foundations of the Government.

The Minister of State might say it was a good tactic from his point of view but the decent thing to do would be for him to come back to the House before the dissolution of this Government and explain his position on it.

Deputy Kitt should not overdo the sincerity, nor should he tread on my willingness to offer apologies. He should say whatever he has to say about the Bill. I offered to appear before the inquiry into the ignominious collapse of the last Government and his party decided not to accept it.

Do it here, Minister.

Carlow-Kilkenny): Perhaps Deputy Kitt might deal with the Bill?

I have nothing for which to apologise. It was a shabby Government led by a shabby party and I am glad I played a part in its downfall.

Acting Chairman

Will Deputy Kitt please speak to the Bill?

I received an apology from the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte.

The Fianna Fáil deputy leader initiated the personal abuse in this House on the issue. I did not.

I am in possession.

Not for long if he continues with the personal smart alec comments.

This is a democracy. If the Minister of State attacks my colleague when she is absent from the House, I will defend her.

The Deputy's colleague attacked me when I was absent from the House and this would not be the first time.

The language the Minister of State used about my colleague was inappropriate to the House.

Acting Chairman

If Deputy Kitt wishes to deal with his Bill, he cannot do so and talk about what happened here three years ago as it automatically leads to argument.

There is a thin line between good, decent debate and political banter and personalised attacks. I will leave it at that and let the electorate be the judge.

The point about ministerial responsibility made by my colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, is valid because both of us have experience in Government. In my case, it is less than the former Minister and our deputy party leader, Deputy O'Rourke. While we appreciate demarcation lines and ministerial responsibilities, they are not the central point. We want to see political responsibilities clearly defined and that is a legitimate objective.

I welcome the Government's acceptance of this Private Members' Bill which has been in gestation for some time. The Bill was published in November after we involved ourselves in lengthy discussions, especially with the MANDATE trade union which has views on the broader issue of Sunday trading as well as on voluntary opt out. Because of the constitutional problems with regard to the broader issue, we confined ourselves in a focused way. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, acknowledged on the airwaves that this area required separate legislation and we have provided it. We welcome the Government's acceptance of this Private Members' Bill. It is my first effort at drafting a Bill and I am happy to have done so. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, stated publicly that he would like to see it become law before the election. I want both Ministers of State to follow up on that commitment and I await a response.

I warmly welcome the comments of Deputy Lynch, colleague of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, who has informally discussed this issue with me. She is aware of my interest and work in this area and her comments were very constructive. In the context of the words we have just had, I welcome her approach as a member of Democratic Left. She shares many of my concerns and acknowledged that this Bill is a good start. I accept what she said that it is not possible to have everything perfect in a Private Members' Bill and that we will require assistance from those in Government to frame the legislation properly. We look forward to it and it must be put in place quickly.

The Minister of State, Deputy Eithne Fitzgerald, said last night that it is important to get the views of the social partners. Members of the Government listen to the views of the social partners on various issues, but they must take an ideological stand on them. We have been derided by others, but the Ministers of State, Deputies Fitzgerald and Rabbitte, must acknowledge that in regard to this aspect of legislation Fianna Fáil, from Lemass's time in the 1938 Act up to the its current leadership under Deputy Ahern, who was involved in labour legislation, has played a pivotal role in providing protective legislation. The Government must take a stand to protect marginalised workers, those who are being exploited and who are involved in casual and part-time work. I am aware from my experience of dealing with so-called social partners that IBEC has problems with this Bill. That is because this is a workers friendly Bill. When it comes to making a choice Fianna Fáil is allying itself firmly with the worker on this issue.

The Minister of State asked how voluntary is an opt out if an employee is only offered Sunday work, or very little other work during the rest of the week, and should the opt out clause apply to only those who work on a Sunday. That is a theoretical argument. The Part-Time Employee Act, 1991 covers all labour legislation for those working more than eight hours. The Minister of State will note that section 3(b) provides that the Act shall not apply in respect of an employee who is normally expected to work for the employer for less than eight hours in a week. We thought this through and provided for, say, students who may wish to work a few hours over the weekend. We discussed this under the protection of young workers Bill. Under this Bill people can consent to work on Sunday and, if they do so, that is fine, but the Minister of State is stretching the case in putting forward the argument she used.

She asked what would happen in regard to existing collective agreements. My motivation in introducing this Bill is that one must have a bottom line on this issue. We favour collective agreements, but in this context it is important that the Ministers of State opposite recognise that Fianna Fáil is adopting a particular position on this sector and we want this legislation to reflect that.

The Minister of State also asked if the opt out clause should apply to all shops. I look forward to debating that issue on Committee Stage. The Bill excludes relatives defined as ranging from a wife, a husband to a brother-in-law or a sister. Section 11 provides for regulations to be adopted on any section of the Act.

I spoke to the director of RGDATA who, on behalf of RGDATA, welcomes the Bill. In the context of the family of shops it represents, its experience is that people are not coerced to work on Sunday. That work practice is a voluntary regime. We are targeting large retail outlets where practices have developed including coercion to work on a Sunday, inadequate notice is given and zero hour contracts reign supreme. That is the focus of our Bill. I have worked with the Minister of State on various Bills during my time as spokesperson on labour affairs. She is doing the right thing in supporting the passing of this stage of the Bill on behalf of the Government.

The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, was lauded himself for his role in bringing down the previous Government.

Acting Chairman

That is not a point of order.

In certain circumstances independent commentators may laud him for that, but the collapse of the previous Government was based on a false hood perpetrated by Deputy Rabbitte.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is out of order. He should resume his seat.

(Interruptions.)
Question put and agreed to.
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