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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 2 Oct 1997

Vol. 480 No. 8

Annual Report of Ombudsman: Statements (Resumed).

In his report, the Ombudsman states that the relationship between public bodies and the citizen is an essential element in the quality of our society and democracy. On the basis of the number and type of complaints handled during 1996, there is an implication of inequality in our society.

The highest numbers of complaints were as follows: Department of Social Welfare, 807; local authorities, 792; and health boards, 577. Together they represent over 60 per cent of all complaints handled during the year. The areas of social welfare, local authorities and health boards generally relate to persons who are not in the higher socio-economic groups. This raises the question why there are so many more complaints from those who are socially and economically disadvantaged.

The number of complaints would be reduced if it was the policy of the Department of Social Welfare, local authorities and health boards to positively discriminate in favour of those who are socially and economically excluded, in order to cherish equally in essence as well as within the narrow legal meaning of the Constitution.

The stewardship of the State's finances is watched over effectively by the Comptroller and Auditor General. While complaints are investigated by the Ombudsman there is a need for someone to watch over the process of how effectively bureaucracy works in the interests of the public whom the public bodies serve.

A number of matters within the remit of local authorities immediately come to mind which would function more effectively if an audit was to be carried out on the way local authorities function. The following are some examples. Replies to correspondence from public representatives and from the general public need to be improved throughout all local authorities. In the local authorities I am aware of, private housing matters are often discussed at large impersonal counters within earshot of other members of the public.

Is there a morally fair allocation of resources to deprived areas? There are areas of deprivation in the major cities of Dublin, Cork and Limerick which need massive injections of cash and human resources to help communities help themselves and so improve dramatically the quality of life for those who live there. I am thinking of areas in Dublin such as Fatima Mansions and Bridgefoot Street flats. Is it fair to have beautiful parks like St. Anne's in Clontarf, Malahide Castle, New-bridge Demesne in Donabate and Ardgillan in Skerries, while parts of Dublin's inner city and western suburbs contain a proliferation of Long Kesh type corrals?

There is an ethos whereby local authorities will help those who help themselves and this is a reasonable way of dispensing resources. It allows for accountability, regularity and propriety. The Comptroller and Auditor General and departmental secretaries can report in a manner that reflects well on them. At the same time they have a value added product. By adding to the resources of local community groups it can easily be shown that the accountable body has received value for money. This is an easy way of achieving results but should the money not have gone to more difficult administrative areas where needs are greater? There are many areas of need but is it right to concentrate on the convenient ones rather than those which are greater?

This money could be spent more effectively by providing accommodation for travelling people. In the past funds have been allocated to those councils which are readily prepared to provide accommodation such as South Dublin County Council, rather than to councils such as Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown which is in greater need of resources to accommodate travellers but which has been able to block all efforts to accommodate them. While these moneys have been spent in an efficient and accountable manner, I question if they have been spent in a way which is effective nationally in providing traveller accommodation in each county.

Have the rights of all the people been vindicated by this expenditure? Has the money been spent in a morally fair manner taking into account the population? Has the expenditure been effective in improving the quality of life of all our citizens? The report states there was a 10.5 per cent increase in the number of complaints received by the Ombudsman, as if this was a great achievement. However, it would have been a great achievement if there had been a reduction of 10.5 per cent in the number of complaints.

The aspiration of greater socio-economic equality should be built into the administrative practices of public bodies. The booklet which accompanies the Ombudsman's report, "Guide to Standards of Best Practice for Public Servants", should include an aspiration to greater social and economic equality. This could be included in future Government policy. The Ombudsman's office should also audit the effectiveness and work practices of public bodies in the same way the Comptroller and Auditor General audits the receipt and expenditure of State funds.

I have examined whether an individual is entitled to a decent quality of life under the Constitution. Article 40.1 states:

All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law. This shall not be held to mean that the State shall not in its enactments have due regard to differences of capacity, physical and moral, and of social function.

This equality provision has a legal connotation rather than a socio-economic aspiration of equality. The Constitution review group in its report addresses this question. Arguments for and against whether the equality guarantee should be denominated as a core norm in the Constitution were examined. The arguments for included the fact that true liberty depends on equality in a broader than legal sense and on having the resources for effective participation in the democratic system.

Exclusion from full and equal participation for whatever reason, economic, social, cultural or any other, weakens the sense of community and common purpose and thus makes more difficult the achievement of desirable reforms, such as the removal of unfair discrimination. Greater economic equality would lead to greater political stability on which the effective functioning of democracy depends. The argument against states that the arguments in favour of the proposal are essentially political ones for an optimum degree of socio-economic equality rather than strictly for equality before the law. The interrelationship between the two is acknowledged but the former is a policy issue appropriate to be addressed by the Government and the Oireachtas rather than by a constitutional assertion.

In its recommendations, the Constitution review committee stated that "A majority of the review group considers it unnecessary and inappropriate to designate a right to equality as taking precedence over others and prefers that reconciliation of rights, where they are in conflict, should remain a matter for the courts. A minority fears that the absence of such a provision would mean that equality will be subordinated to other constitutional values." Had I been a member of the review group and being a Member of this House representing many disadvantaged and socially excluded people, I would have veered on the side of the minority. However, if the view of the majority prevails, I will look to my party to ensure that future Government policy will aspire to the optimum degree of socio-economic equality. The Office of the Ombudsman is the ideal vehicle to examine and audit all Government bodies to ensure the equality policy of the Government is implemented, in practice and in spirit by public bodies.

There is the question of controlling and regulating expenditure. The Comptroller and Auditor General has a duty to audit in each year the appropriation accounts for the previous financial year prepared by various Departments. The Secretary of each Department, who also serves as accounting officer, is responsible for the safeguard of public funds and property under his control, the efficiency and economy of administration of his Department and the regularity and propriety of all transactions in the appropriation accounts. This spending process is well catered for, but everyone is aware of the difficulties in having money allocated to various projects, whether these involve the provision of an additional teacher for a school or the provision of a small vehicle for a community Garda.

In general, the resources of the State are well guarded and efficiently and effectively administered and for this we must congratulate the Secretaries of the Departments and the Comptroller and Auditor General. However, there are a number of questions which must be asked. Should we aspire to socio-economic equality? I believe we should. Are the resources of the State being effectively applied in a caring and moral way? They should be. Should the Ombudsman have a role in auditing the spending of funds to ensure that greater socio-economic equality is being sought? The Ombudsman should have a greater role and his 1996 report shows that he is ready and willing to take it on.

During my trawl of ombudsmen listed on the Internet I came across a number of items I felt might be of relevance here. One facet of the work done by the ombudsman's office in the United States is gaining ground, namely, care of the elderly. It is interesting to note that under the social welfare heading in the Ombudsman's report the number of complaints was greatest in the area relevant to old age entitlements. There are a growing number of elderly people in Ireland and there is a greater need among them for information services, security, and certainty. To arrive at this position it is necessary that information services be provided.

With regard to the type of facilities available to elderly people — whether these be old age pensions, nursing homes, services provided by community health nurses or local authority housing — it is necessary that the function of the Ombudsman in respect of these people should be examined. In the United States, an ombudsman for the aged can be a voluntary position. People who are willing to perform the function can be trained in all of the requirements and needs of the elderly, who can go to someone if they feel they are being unjustly treated.

The office of ombudsman for small business assists businesses with air quality and other regulatory requirements and encourages environmental compliance and stewardship. This office has come to the fore, particularly in regard to sustainable development and the Rio Accord. It is important that small businesses be helped. The office of small business ombudsman is at present operated in the state of Pennsylvania.

My preparation for this speech has awakened in me a great interest in the potential of the office of Ombudsman. I am sure that in the next few years the office of Ombudsman will be an integral part of the services provided by the Government. I look forward to its continued success.

I welcome the Ombudsman's report and its discussion in this House is timely. I compliment the Ombudsman, Mr. Kevin Murphy, on dealing with a variety of queries. When the office was established 13 years ago, the groundwork was laid by Mr. Michael Mills, the first holder of that office. It is to his credit that the office has been developed to its current state.

The Ombudsman dealt with 3,181 problems last year, a 10 per cent increase. This increase is not so much due to a negative view of the Civil Service and other public bodies but to the greater publicity given to the office of Ombudsman in recent times. That is a welcome development which Mr. Murphy should be complimented on.

There is a greater response to the office of Ombudsman from rural than from urban areas. Therein lies another message, that is, the part played by local radio and provincial newspapers in highlighting and advertising the availability of staff from the Ombudsman's office throughout rural Ireland. That is a welcome development, albeit they operate from the offices of the citizens' advice bureau. I would ask the Minister to investigate the possibility of providing the services of the Ombudsman in sub-offices throughout the country on a permanent basis and not necessarily through the offices of the citizens' advice bureau.

All citizens are entitled to be dealt with properly, fairly and impartially. Those words come loudly and clearly from the report. Another positive aspect of the report is that the Ombudsman is prepared to be proactive rather than reactive in many of the ways in which he is dealing, or proposes to deal, with matters. That will lead to a far better society. It will alleviate many of the hardships of people who go to the Ombudsman as a last resort.

Many Members and public representatives realise that they have failed on occasion due the rigidity of officials in public authorities. If such officials make a statement, it must stand. Even when the Ombudsman took up a particular case with the Department of Health, according to the report, the official took the matter all the way to the Attorney General's office. Is it necessary in 1997 that a query of the Ombudsman should go all the way up the line to the Attorney General before somebody in the Department of Health finally capitulated? While I do not want to criticise the Civil Service and public servants in general, some individuals within the public service have built little empires which they do not want interfered with. The instance to which I refer was a case of last resort where the highest legal officer in the land had to be called in to decide on the acceptance of the advice of the Ombudsman.

Too often principles of good administration are not observed by public bodies and, unfortunately, in many cases by Departments. I welcome Mr. Murphy's positive approach in the 1996 report, highlighting the best standards of practice. I ask the Minister, as the person responsible for the public service, to initiate some formal training on a regular in-service basis for public servants. I know that the younger public servants are bright, intelligent and amenable but there are others who came up under the old regime and their attitude might not be as flexible or receptive. These latter people caused shock waves when the former Minister, Mr. Boland, suggested in the 1980s that all public servants identify themselves by name on the telephone or by wearing a name tag. That was resisted for a long time by what was termed faceless people within the public service and those public bodies. Thank God we have moved away a little from that. It is much appreciated by the public because there is nothing as bad as to be talking to or making representations to a person one is unable to identify by name or rank. It is good to know that one can talk to officials in the public service on a friendly basis. This is especially the case for members of the public who may not be articulate in presenting their case. It could be lost otherwise.

I welcome the new provision whereby public bodies will list and provide leaflet information to what the Ombudsman believes will be the standards of best practice. I hope it will continue and will eventually lead to in-service training on a regular basis for all public servants.

According to the Ombudsman to deal fairly means avoiding the imposition of penalties which are out of proportion to what is necessary to ensure compliance with rules and proceedings. It also means being prepared to revise and change them if necessary. This would be a welcome development. Given the proliferation of grants, rules and regulations in the area of agriculture it is easy for recipients of grants to make mistakes when applying for them. Even the slightest mistake can result in the refusal of a grant application. This is unfortunate because many of those making such decisions are not aware that grants and contributions are a part of an applicant's everyday income. I am aware of instances where, despite the inclusion of accurate information on forms, applications were rejected because it was wrongly displayed, even when it must have been obvious to officials that there was no deceit or fraudulent intent.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry figures highly, among the top three or four, on the list of bodies complained of in the report. It must accede to the charter of rights, which was heralded last year in a blaze of publicity, and which appears to have floundered. If it was established, there would be far fewer refusals of applications for grants and there would be less delay in their payment. The Ombudsman has outlined an instance where a grant was refused to an applicant 18 months after he made his submission and which resulted in him losing the possibility of applying successfully for another grant in the interim. Only when the Ombudsman interceded on his behalf did officials of the Department finally accede to his application on the basis of information in their files.

There are also instances of the Department of Social Welfare having sought reimbursement of overpayments. Yet, in one case of which I am aware, when the Ombudsman finally pursued the matter in detail he discovered an amount of approximately £26,000 owed to the relevant pensioner in addition to the amount the Department had been deducting from him at the rate of approximately £6 per week.

Bearing in mind the huge volume of applications and the proliferation of all schemes it is understandable that there will be exceptions. Nonetheless I have rarely heard of any departmental official apologise for the severe hardship he or she may have caused resulting from their mistakes; it appears it is not in their character to apologise and/or regret any such inconvenience. Henceforth the Minister will have to ensure that such an approach becomes part and parcel of all Government Departments. Departmental officials, like the rest of us, must be able to say: sorry, we did make a mistake, accept that fact and apologise for its consequences.

Another example is of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry having changed the goalposts or criteria applicable to some grants schemes. When the REP scheme was initiated relevant criteria and conditions were laid down for applicants when, because of its nature, an advanced payment was made in trust to its various applicants. Subsequently, when the Department discovered that those conditions were not sufficiently tight, involved some anomaly, it changed them without notice and applied them retrospectively.

To date there are mountains of such applications lying rejected in the Department, yet none of its officials has ever thought fit to put pen to paper and explain the reasons for their rejection, some so frivolous as to be based on the existence of a non-fenced turf bank in a huge bog in the west, which formed part of the original conditions. Until such time as somebody within that Department examines this aspect with a realistic eye and decides these criteria must be changed many well intentioned people will have their applications notionally rejected but not confirmed in writing. The exasperating aspect of all of this is that the Department will not commit itself in writing lest somebody challenges their regulations, when earlier decisions would have to be changed. That takes me back to the little internal monuments built within certain sections of many Government Departments.

Bearing in mind the radically changing manner in which applications must be lodged, in line with the latest technology advances, there must be greater acceptance that ordinary farming folk cannot keep pace. Indeed, in order to submit an application under many of those schemes any ordinary farmer would practically have to be an accountant, a professional-type smallholder or lawyer to interpret the fine print on such application forms. It is serious that schemes which form part of the income upon which those applicants depend are so complex. It is important that adequate notice be given of changes so that people are informed, and this should be done on an individual basis where applicable. There is no follow-up to inform applicants as to where the error is or how it can be corrected. A note or a telephone call to a person to visit an office to verify a change would solve the problem on most occasions, but that is not part of these people's work practices.

I ask the Minister to decentralise the Ombudsman's office. Will the ombudsman for financial institutions report soon or does Mr. Kevin Murphy's report encompass that one also? Apart from the public service and the other areas Mr. Murphy envisages will come within his remit at a later stage — FÁS, the vocational education committees, and others — I hope lending institutions will be brought to task for their severe penalties and their habit of distancing themselves when problems arise with customers.

I compliment the Deputy on his maiden speech which was extremely well delivered. I also compliment the Ombudsman on his report. Deputy Noonan mentioned that the Ombudsman received 2,536 complaints in 1996 and not 3,414. There was a carryover from the previous year. Deputy Noonan said he received about 6,000 complaints and there was no one but himself and his secretary to deal with them. I do not receive anything like 6,000 complaints, or problems as I prefer to call them, a year; it would be more in the region of 1,000 to 1,500. Many of those with problems probably go to other public representatives as well and I wonder if any end up with the Ombudsman. It would be interesting to know how many constituents did so and were successful where previously, having been to their public representative, they were not. I would be very interested to know that number.

As a public representative, I always say I cannot get anyone something to which he or she is not entitled. All we can do is speed up the process by which we get them that to which they are entitled. I have always defined a public representative as a person who acts as a buffer between the people and the bureaucrats. That is the essence of democracy and is sometimes forgotten by those who call us messenger boys and denigrate the work of the public representative. Such work is extremely important. Under any dictatorial regime or totalitarian state, people have no access to any representation. Our system is Government of the people, by the people and for the people. The fact that not as many people as before attend our clinics is because most people have telephones. Some 50 per cent of the problems I get are communicated to my office by telephone.

I was delighted to see the satisfaction rating for the public service was 70 per cent. My satisfaction rating would be even higher — I am 99 per cent satisfied with the public servants I have met and with whom I have had to deal. Much public representation concerns diplomacy, that is, getting the problem across to the official to whom one speaks. However, I have met the other 1 per cent in recent times and it has disturbed me. I have been a member of Dublin Corporation since 1967 and a Dáil Deputy since 1965. Many of the senior civil servants of that time have now retired and their place has been taken by a batch of young people who do not even know the public representatives. I have spoken to a number of people in local authorities who resent my intervention, particularly in planning department matters. If a person has a query regarding a planning application, I ask the planning officer to look at the site, but recently some planning officers ask why they should do so, because they have already made a decision — forgetting that we are there to represent the people, and the people must have access to their public representatives and, through them, to their officials. Many years ago I was travelling in a lift to see an official and a young public servant asked if I had an appointment; I said "no" and he told me to wait downstairs. A senior official quietly told the younger official that a public representative could visit any department at any time, with or without an appointment, during business hours. I told the young official that he would go far, and the further the better. That attitude is seen occasionally but 99 per cent of our public servants at national and local level are marvellous. We can be proud of their great tradition. I recently spoke to the city manager about some of the attitudes I had encountered and suggested it might be necessary to tell these people about the role of public representatives.

Here is an example of where the Ombudsman might intervene in a case. I had to go to the Ombudsman — it was Mr. Michael Mills at that time — about a case where I was not getting any joy. I wonder how many other Members of the House have had to contact him. In another more recent case, a daughter of a constituent had back trouble and was in receipt of injury benefit. The Department of Social Welfare thought she was fit to return to work but her doctor did not. The Department seemed to be mistreating someone who was genuinely unwell. She was entitled to appeal the Department's decision within 21 days and her payments were supposed to stop this week, on October 1. The medical referee who examined her on 23 September expressed the opinion that she was capable of work. However, this woman has an appointment in Beaumont hospital for spinal injections — these take six weeks to arrange and are quite unpleasant. A person who did not have back trouble would not go for these tests.

Would the Ombudsman be able to contact the Department and say that no one should be refused social welfare until the appeal has been decided? This is an important issue which should be examined by the Minister for Social Welfare. Only after appeal should social welfare benefits be stopped. This is an example of how we, as public representatives, act as a buffer between the people and the bureaucrats.

I do not know if the Ombudsman has dealt with cases where medical cards are taken from people aged 80 years or over. This might happen in local community centres but the policy of the Eastern Health Board is not to take medical cards from anybody over 80 years of age. It is a distressful occurrence for elderly people of limited means and it is an important issue.

I have heard criticism of Question Time in this House. However, the opportunity to put a question to a Minister is important in that often a problem is solved within four days of placing a question to the Minister when satisfaction was not being achieved through dealing directly with the Department of Social Welfare.

That is correct.

The Department of Social Welfare has now established direct lines of communication for Deputies and this works satisfactorily. As a result I have not had to table any Parliamentary Questions on such issues. I am delighted with the response of the Department and compliment the nice people staffing that service.

Anybody who thinks we are elected to this House simply as legislators and not as messengers boys is wrong. We are messengers boys. In many ways we are glorified social workers.

I was delighted to read the concern expressed by the Ombudsman about people not able to articulate their cases effectively. Occasionally, people find it difficult to put the facts before a Government Department when making representations on their own behalf.

I note the Ombudsman has 41 staff. Deputies with one secretary may have up to 5,000 clients per year, but he has 41 staff and dealt with 2,536 clients. There is something wrong somewhere.

I would like the Ombudsman to examine legal costs. The fees payable to the legal profession, ranging from £500 to £3,000 per day, are insane. There are too many lawyers here and the legal profession has lost the run of itself. I feel bad about the fact that poor people cannot get proper legal representation.

I compliment many of the public servants I have met. Tax inspectors are often criticised, but I have found them most helpful. Many people will not contact them when asked and this is where the difficulty stems from. It is like dealing with a bank manager — it is only when his letters are not answered that difficulties begin to arise.

I congratulate the Minister on his report to the Dáil and join in congratulating Deputy Ulick Burke, my colleague from East Galway. I also compliment the Ombudsman, Mr.

Kevin Murphy. His comments on public access to the Ombudsman are important. The increasing number of visits by the Ombudsman to the regions is welcome. His report speaks of visits to Galway, Waterford, Cork and Limerick.

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