Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Feb 1998

Vol. 486 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 9, motion re. Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions; No. 10, motion re. Restoration of the Geneva Conventions (Amendment) Bill, 1997, to the Order Paper; No. 11, motion re. Restoration of the Children Bill, 1996, to the Order Paper; No. 12, motion re. Leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate (Vote 26) and, subject to the agreement of No. 12, to take Supplementary Estimate (Vote 26); No. 20, Local Government (Planning and Development) Bill, 1997, Second Stage (Resumed) and No. 21, the Education (No. 2) Bill, 1997, Second Stage (Resumed).

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 9, 10, 11 and 12 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded on No. 12 shall be taken forthwith and, subject to the agreement of No. 12, Supplementary Estimate (Vote 26) shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith. Private Member's Business shall be No. 43, motion re. Duty Free Sales.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 9, 10, 11 and 12 agreed to?

Mr. J. Bruton

With regard to No. 10, the Geneva Conventions cover the conduct of humanitarian operations during wartime. Has the Taoiseach considered providing time for a discussion on the worrying events concerning Iraq? Will he facilitate a discussion in the House on how Ireland can make a contribution to achieving a diplomatic resolution of the increasingly worrying developments?

The Taoiseach

I would be open to a debate on the issue. The Government is concerned at the situation arising from the failure of the Iraqi Government to comply with the terms of certain UN resolutions. It is the Government's view that the best means of resolving the current impasse is through the UN Security Council and diplomatic means. I express our appreciation of the efforts under way and encourage those involved in promoting a peaceful resolution. If the Whips wish to discuss the matter we can consider it further.

Proinsias De Rossa

I have sought to raise this matter a number of times. Is the Taoiseach satisfied that the US and Britain have a mandate to launch war in the Gulf?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business. The Taoiseach has indicated that the Whips will arrange for discussion. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 9, 10, 11 and 12 agreed to? Agreed. Are the arrangements for taking Supplementary Estimate (Vote 26) agreed to? Agreed

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach seek time for a motion to establish a tribunal to investigate the problem of child sex abuse in the sport of swimming? Has the Government been able to resolve the views expressed within Government on this matter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand that matter will arise during Question Time tomorrow.

The Taoiseach

The Government discussed the matter today. We are not putting a resolution to the House but the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation will make a statement later today. The Government seeks the best interests of the children and parents concerned in this matter. Following representations we have received from several for the parents involved we consider that what is required initially is an independent private inquiry. We will announce that such an inquiry will be set up forthwith. Dr. Roderick Murphy, a senior counsel and chairman of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, will carry out the investigation and will contact the interested parties. This is in line with what has been requested by the swimming interests and the representatives of the children. It will be set up as a matter of urgency and will report within four weeks.

Mr. Quinn

With regard to the same issue, the Taoiseach wrote to me on 3 February about the bringing into effect of the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act. I understand that the Whips agreed yesterday that the sub-committee on Dáil reform of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges will be the designated sub-committee to deal with the introduction of the Act's provisions. If such an Act were in operation this House could set up an inquiry such as that to which he has referred, with the powers to compel witnesses to attend and without the difficulties associated with judicial inquiries. In the light of the decisions made yesterday by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, will the Taoiseach consider charging the Oireachtas with the establishment of such an inquiry? The Oireachtas is answerable to the public, unlike lawyers, although they are at least answerable to the tax authorities. The Oireachtas should have the power to hold such an inquiry and it would be able to compel witnesses to attend, having due regard to the rights and privileges afforded by the Constitution.

The Taoiseach

In my communication with the Deputy I set out some of the difficulties in this regard which need to be addressed.

Mr. Quinn

They have been resolved.

The Taoiseach

They need to be addressed. Following the Deputy's raising the matter in the House I moved to pursue a number of those issue and to clarify the position with the Department of Finance. The Minister will make a statement on this matter shortly and, hopefully, Dr. Roderick Murphy will be able to report within four weeks. I am conscious that there is a large number of cases involving many areas of Irish life and we must reflect carefully on that. I am also aware that the Eastern Health Board alone has over 1,000 pending cases concerning child sexual abuse. It seems that a large number of community, voluntary and sporting organisations are affected by cases pending. These matters merit reflection. I was answering with regard to the case concerning the swimming club into which the Minister will announce an independent private inquiry under Dr. Roderick Murphy.

In view of the changes with regard to compellability of witnesses and the committee system there is merit in considering that approach. In terms of confidentiality and what parents have said to the Government, we must be conscious that many parents, children and their various representatives are conscious of the laws of privacy. I do not believe that is insurmountable.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Minister, Deputy McDaid, make a statement in the House on this matter or will he issue a press release? Will he be available to take questions on his announcement here today? Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the proposed course of action involving a private inquiry by Dr. Murphy has the agreement of the parents' representatives? Has the Government decided whether it is ruling in or out the possibility of a sworn public inquiry after the conclusion of the private inquiry?

The Taoiseach

The Minister will make a statement to the public later today. He is taking questions on this matter in the House tomorrow and I am sure any queries can be raised at that time. The Government's assessment is based on our best view of the interests of the children and the parents. The decision is made on the basis of contact by a number of parents. I do not know whether it would be accepted by all the representatives —it seems some parents will be legally represented but others will not, so I cannot categorically state the position. I know Dr. Roderick Murphy will be talking to them and on my behalf the Attorney General will talk later this evening to the solicitor who has been to the forefront on this issue —he sent me a letter and I want to respond.

As I stated last week, we rule nothing out but it is our assessment at this stage that an independent private inquiry by Dr. Murphy is the best option. I am conscious that a number of these cases have been dealt with by the courts.

Mr. Quinn

My party has put down a motion to bring into effect the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act. The Taoiseach wrote to me on 3 February —the meeting to which I referred took place last week, not yesterday —and the requirement set out in his letter has been addressed, that is, the sub-committee has been identified. All that is now formally needed is for the motion to be taken. Since it is a motion to give effect to an Act which has been passed by both Houses, I presume there is no dispute or division about it. Once the motion is taken, this House or these Houses can, if it or they so choose, establish the kind of inquiry with full compellability of witnesses which we sought as far back as the inquiry into the funding of the arms crisis over 20 years ago. Does the Taoiseach not agree it is imperative that this legislation be brought fully into commission as a matter of urgency? Could he give an undertaking that he will specify now or communicate with me later when the Houses could take the motion, so that the Act is brought into commission and we can proceed, if we so choose, with doing the business for which we have been elected?

The Taoiseach

I do not want to mix this with what the Minister, Deputy McDaid, will announce later. As to what Deputy Quinn has asked, if a committee of the House is asking that the motion be moved, I am happy that we take it as speedily as possible and have no difficulty with that. As I understand it the Chief Whip is already engaged in preparing the motion and we should deal with it, with the other Whips, as speedily as possible.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy De Rossa.

Proinsias De Rossa

My question is on a separate matter.

Mr. Allen

May I ask a question on this issue?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have further debate on this, Deputy Allen. There will be an opportunity to put queries at Question Time tomorrow. We have already spent almost fifteen minutes on this matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I ask a question on a related matter concerning promised legislation?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will allow Deputy Bruton on that matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

In view of the further tragic evidence of child sexual abuse, does the Taoiseach agree that the inspectorate of child care legislation, which he indicated would not be ready until later this year at least, should be treated as having higher priority for drafting than it has been given to date? In addition to retrospective inquiries, we urgently need an inspectorate to deal with current child care matters.

The Taoiseach

I can check this later for Deputy Bruton but I understand that in view of the urgency of establishing a social service inspectorate, it has been decided to proceed with this on an administrative basis. It is envisaged that the social service inspectorate will be located in the Department of Health and Children. The existing general powers of the Minister for Health and Children and the specific powers provided in section 69 of the Child Care Act will underpin its administrative arrangement. In the longer term, it is accepted that the inspectorate will need to be established on a statutory basis. I think the Deputy will agree this is a way of speedily moving the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

If there is no statutory basis there will be difficulties with disputes.

Mr. Allen

I object to the fact that the Minister is not prepared to make a statement in the House rather than on the plinth. Surely I can put down two markers —that there should be compellability of witnesses to appear before the inquiry—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We have had a 15 minute debate on this issue and I ask the Deputy to resume his seat while I am on my feet.

Mr. Allen

—and that it should have the power to demand papers. If those powers are not given, it is meaningless.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am sure the murders of two people in Northern Ireland in the last 24 hours are condemned by everyone in this House. Will the Taoiseach seek to ensure all parties to the negotiations re-affirm their commitment to the Mitchell principles and insist that there be condemnation of these murders by all concerned?

The Taoiseach

I add my words of sympathy to the families and condemn these actions outright, both last night's murder and wounding of a second person, a lady, and the shooting dead of Robert Dougan at lunchtime today. These are serious matters and I understand most parties to the talks have already issued statements These events increase tension and create fear, which we could well do without. I hope all parties to the talks state their position, as they have an obligation to do.

Mr. Gormley

When will the inter-agency report on road safety be published? Following its publication, will the House debate it? Does the Government intend to introduce legislation or other measures to deal with the huge increase in road deaths?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No legislation is promised in that regard. The Deputy is inquiring about a report.

Mr. Gormley

I am sure the Taoiseach shares my concern about road safety and deaths.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure he does but it is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

The issue was raised on the Order of Business some months ago when the House joined in focusing on road safety. The Taoiseach undertook to establish a high level review of road safety, bringing together all the agencies, and to report back to the House. I think it is therefore in order to ask whether the report has been brought to Government and if we can expect legislation or action on the 48 deaths so far this year.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has answered questions on this matter. The group, under the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, is working and the views of the Garda have been noted. As I have stated many times in the House and as the Garda Commissioner stated yesterday, all the analysis shows that speeding is a major cause. The review group and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform are examining measures to enforce the many existing powers to improve this appalling situation.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Will the Taoiseach confirm that, in the event of the outbreak of hostilities in the Gulf, he will bring the matter before the Dáil for resolution before any permission is given to over-fly this country, as happened in the past?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter has already been raised by Deputy John Bruton and replied to by the Taoiseach.

Mr. G. Mitchell

He did not reply. On the last occasion the Dáil had to pass a resolution. Will the Taoiseach confirm—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I will try one more time. Is it intended to bring forward a resolution on any matter concerning possible hostilities in the Gulf?

The Taoiseach

There are no proposals in that regard. As I said earlier, the Government strongly believes any recourse to military action should be taken with the authorisation of the Security Council. The Government is in close consultation with our EU partners who are members of the Security Council.

Proinsias De Rossa

Is the Taoiseach satisfied the United States and Britain do not—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot debate this issue now.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is a very critical issue.

Is the Taoiseach satisfied the United States and Britain do not have that mandate?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot debate that issue now.

Ms Shortall

In view of the growing concern about school absenteeism, with some schools reporting daily absenteeism rates of 20 per cent, and the fact that long promised legislation in this area will take some time, will the Taoiseach consider making arrangements for including two areas of great need —one is his constituency, namely, Cherry Orchard, and one in mine, namely, Ballymun —in the Dublin city school attendance service?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Order of Business. I suggest the Deputy submit a question on the matter.

Ms Shortall

I tried to do that. I understand this can be done by way of a ministerial order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Other Deputies have been refused permission to raise matters which are not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Ms Shortall

I think the Taoiseach might like to answer this question as it concerns his constituency.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume her seat.

Ms Shortall

It is a disgrace.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have asked Deputy Shortall to resume her seat while the Chair is on his feet.

Ms Shortall

The Taoiseach could do something about this today if he so chose.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall must show some respect for the House.

Ms Shortall

The Taoiseach is ignoring the problem.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am asking Deputy Shortall to resume her seat.

Ms Shortall

It is happening in Cherry Orchard in the Taoiseach's constituency.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall must resume her seat while the Chair is on his feet.

Ms Shortall

What is the Taoiseach doing about it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am giving Deputy Shortall one last chance to resume her seat.

Ms Shortall

What is he doing about it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Deputy Shortall does not resume her seat immediately I will ask her to leave the House. I am calling Deputy Michael D. Higgins for a final question.

Ms Shortall

It is happening in the Taoiseach's constituency in Cherry Orchard.

Mr. Lawlor

What did the Deputy do about it?

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will ask Deputy Shortall to leave the House if she does not resume her seat immediately and show some respect to her colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, whom I have called.

Mr. M. Higgins

I am very interested in the point raised by Deputy Shortall.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, without interruption.

Mr. M. Higgins

This House has a foreign affairs committee. Last week, the Taoiseach indicated on the Order of Business that it was a matter for the Whips to arrange an opportunity to discuss the deteriorating situation in the Middle East. I cannot understand how a matter cannot be raised on the Order of Business if we do not have an opportunity to question the Minister for Foreign Affairs during Question Time between now and the deterioration of the international situation. How are we to raise it in the House?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are other ways of raising it —for example, on the Adjournment.

Mr. M. Higgins

Will the Taoiseach ask the Government Whip to be favourably disposed towards the provision of time to debate this issue? The idea that Parliament would do nothing during such a significant development is unacceptable.

The Taoiseach

Unless I am mistaken, Deputy John Bruton asked me if I would consider a debate on the matter, to which I replied I would. I went on to answer in a detailed fashion. The only question I did not answer was the one raised by Deputy De Rossa. In the view of the Government, as was the case in 1991, any action should be authorised by a resolution of the Security Council.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will move onto No. 9.

Mr. J. Bruton

In regard to legislation, on 25 November—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I called a final question from Deputy Higgins. The Order of Business has lasted 25 minutes and a number of Deputies are offering. We must move on.

Mr. Stagg

I was offering. I wish to ask about promised legislation and I will insist on so doing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may ask about promised legislation.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister for Public Enterprise promised to introduce legislation on the duplication and proliferation of telecommunications masts which would force such operators to share the facilities. When will we see that legislation?

The Taoiseach

In mid June.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach promised on 25 November 1997 that the Equal Status Bill would be ready in a few weeks' but it has not appeared. Where is it?

The Taoiseach

As I understand it, most of the issues have been dealt with in the Employment Equality Bill. The Bill is being prepared but I am told it will be some months before it is ready.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach said last November that it would be ready in a few weeks time.