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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 10 Mar 1998

Vol. 488 No. 4

Priority Questions. - Social Welfare Benefits.

Jim O'Keeffe

Ceist:

15 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs his views on whether the figure of £756 million, quoted as being the overall cost of providing an old age pension for those self-employed who were required to contribute to the scheme but will not qualify for pension as they were over 56 when the scheme was introduced, is incorrect; his views on whether a pro rata scheme could be introduced for less that £20 million a year; and whether he will introduce a pro rata scheme. [6458/98]

The issue raised refers to the position of self-employed people who were over 56 years of age on the extension of social insurance to the self-employed in April 1988. While it is difficult to obtain accurate statistics on this group, it is estimated that there were up to 20,000 self-employed people over age 56 when PRSI was extended in 1988 and who were registered for PRSI purposes. As I indicated recently during the debate on the Social Welfare Bill, the additional cost of paying an old age contributory pension to all this group would be of the order of £50 million per annum, equivalent to a capitalised cost of £475 million over the full period of the payments. The figure of £756 million to which the Deputy referred was originally estimated to be the cost by the National Pensions Board and was based on 50,000 people qualifying for pension.

I assure the House that I will continue to ensure the broadest possible contributory pension cover to as many categories as possible. I have asked my Department to examine the general issue relating to the self-employed group aged over 56 in April 1988. The condition that a person must have entered insurance at least ten years before pension age, before he or she is eligible to qualify for the old age contributory pension, has been a feature of the scheme since it was introduced in 1961. The purpose of this condition is to ensure that entitlement to the pension is limited to those who have made a reasonable level of contributions to the social insurance fund during the course of their careers. This ten year condition was supported by the National Pensions Board and it is considered to be reasonable. The amendment in the Social Welfare Act, 1997, regarding the payment of refund of contributions to this group — which was agreed by the Deputy's party — effectively re-emphasised the position of the ten year test.

I assure the House that any self-employed person who has contributed and does not qualify for either a contributory or a non-contributory pension receives a refund of the pension element — 53 per cent — of his or her PRSI contributions with interest, which is a fair arrangement. I presume that a scheme could be devised for less than £20 million per annum depending, obviously, on the entitlement conditions applied and the level of pension paid. However, I must stress that any proposals would, as I have indicated previously, have a major cost implication and would fall to be considered in a budgetary context. I remind the Deputy that in such a context £20 million is a significant amount of money, equivalent to almost 9 per cent of the full year cost of the 1998 Social Welfare budget package. I indicated previously, and it is important to repeat that a person is entitled to a non-contributory pension, subject to a means test.

Does the Minister agree that there are two aspects to be considered in respect of pensions for the self-employed, namely, the justice of the case and the question of cost? Does he accept that, to a large extent, money was taken under false pretences from those over 56 years of age when the scheme was introduced? Does he also accept that these people did not ask to enter the scheme and as a consequence of their being forced into the system the State has a responsibility to find some formula to return the money taken from them?

When efforts are made to bring people into the system and certain levels are set, discrimination or anomalies will result. The same is true of the ten year rule. If, as has been suggested, we were to reduce that in some way, anomalies would be created. Deputies will be aware of cases in which people who were just inside the ten year period would have lost out. It causes problems.

As I said most recently in the debate on the Social Welfare Bill, 1998, I am having the matter examined. It is a daunting task which has faced successive Governments. The Deputy's party was in Government recently and examined the issue, yet the best it felt it could do in the circumstances was to provide for a refund for those affected. That is a laudable compromise but it is not what is wanted by the vast majority of those affected. This issue will not go away and I have asked the Department to examine closely the possibilities for action. However, the matter will have to be dealt with in a budgetary context.

The refund arrangement was made by Deputy Woods, when the Bill to establish the scheme was introduced. Does the Minister accept there is a degree of urgency to the matter given that the first pensions will become payable on and after 6 April this year? Has there been a realistic assessment of the cost? With regard to the cost, does the Minister accept that the problem only concerns those people who were over 56 years at the time of the introduction of the scheme and there will be no continuing cost? Does he agree that a large proportion of those affected will qualify for a non-contributory pension? Does he accept that in the context of pro rata pensions the costs discussed are over the top? In some instances pro rata pensions will be quite small.

The Deputy and I discussed this matter during the debate on the Social Welfare Bill. The figure of £50 million for the yearly cost is correct based on 20,000 people. The estimate of 20,000 people may be conservative. The original estimate was 50,000 but that has been revised downwards and the final figure may well lie between the two estimates, which would imply a greater cost. My officials checked the point raised by the Deputy on Committee Stage of the Social Welfare Bill about the numbers who would be in receipt of a non-contributory pension and I am assured that our figures take that into account. That is to say, the £50 million is a net figure based on people who would be in receipt of a non-contributory pension.

Does the Minister accept that with regard to cost the astronomical estimate of £750 million has been thrown out? Does he also accept that in this case there is a just claim to a pension in the context of the overall pension bill of more than £1 billion a year? This is a relatively small element of the overall pension bill. Will he agree that now is the time to get accurate figures for the payment of pro rata pensions to those who have made the contributions and so clear up this problem?

I agree the issue should be cleared up. This has been an issue for ten years and that it has not been cleared up indicates the difficulty faced by previous Governments in addressing it. The Deputy suggests that we put in place a scheme costing £20 million but I do not think that would be the end of the matter because that would only give a flat rate payment which would not be the full pension and would not apply to the 20,000 or so people involved. However, taking £20 million as a factor of the budgetary package of £125 million, the largest for some time, the Deputy would be asking me not to accord the increase to child benefit payments——

I do not think the 37p a week would be affected.

——which will come to about £28 million in a full year, significantly more than the previous Government gave.

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