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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 Apr 1998

Vol. 489 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Licensed Premises (Opening Hours) Bill, 1998: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time. "

I wish to share time with Deputies John McGuinness, Seán Power and Noel Ahern.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I express my unqualified support of the logical and measured response of the Minister to Deputy Upton's Bill. It is a pity Deputy Upton and his colleagues did not adopt the same pragmatic approach in presenting the case for a review of the licensing laws. This Bill is blatant political opportunism. The Labour Party must be running out of worthwhile issues to promote.

Up to June last year the Labour Party had spent most of the 1990s in Government, first with Fianna Fáil and then with Fine Gael and Democratic Left as part of the rainbow coalition. During all that time the vintners' representatives and others were actively lobbying for change in the drink licensing laws which were as anomalous and impractical then as they are today. During those years Deputy Upton had many opportunities to speak on various issues. He regularly availed of them. Unfortunately, he did not speak in any depth on the matter under discussion. Neither did he avail of any opportunity to introduce a Private Members' Bill relevant to the trade. It was not on his or the Labour Party's agenda at that time.

The Minister for Justice at the time rightly referred the whole issue for a complete review to a subcommittee of the Select Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights, that is, the committee on Security and Legislation of which I am a member. That subcommittee has specific terms of reference and its brief would embody not only the times pubs should open and close but also the complete maze of laws governing the licensed trade, which are vast and complex.

The Deputy would be well advised to have a rethink and, even at this late stage, withdraw his Bill. This would be in line with what I know to be the wishes of the majority of Members. I also venture to say that a decision to do so would be welcomed by trade union members in the licensed trade. I am advised that their members have very strong reservations about certain provisions of this proposed legislation. It is a pity the Deputy did not seek the views of this important body. They made their submissions and they are entitled to prior consultation on matters of vital importance to livelihood and conditions of employment.

In a few short weeks a seminar will be held, cosponsored by the Department of Justice, Equality and law Reform and the Dublin Institute of Technology. It will investigate and debate matters relevant to the proposed legislation which will be brought before the House. Knowledge gained from the input at this session will have a major bearing on the issues in question in the House today. We will have the benefit of a diversity of opinion on a wide variety of points which could have a crucial impact on proposed legislation.

As others said last night, the Deputy is jumping the gun. He is presenting his Bill to the House prior to exploring the multiplicity of matters which will be affected by his proposals, and there are many. Grabbing headlines should not be the motivation in the presentation of legislation. I would have a less critical view if the Deputy had shown the same enthusiasm for change during his membership of the rainbow coalition.

There are many matters to be debated in the context of the introduction of the Bill which are relevant to the licensed trade. There are changes with which I do not agree. One is that it would become legal to open pubs on Good Friday as proposed by Deputy Upton. I see no significant financial reason for opening on that day. Neither do I see it contributing to a tourism boom. I strongly oppose a move in this direction because of the religious significance attached to this very important day. This proposition would offend many. It may be trendy to undermine and erode core Irish values. Some people would like to do away with time honoured customs and beloved traditions associated with all that is best in our society. They are entitled to their views, but I am entitled to mine. I see no merit in this suggestion.

We must take note of and debate the requests for the amending of closing hours. This is currently being done by the committee of which I am a member. Over 57 submissions have been made to the select committee. Detailed observations were made by individuals and by the Vintners' Association, Bord Fáilte, the Hotel Federation, the Restaurant Association, RGDATA, the Wine and Spirit Association, IMRO, Irish Dance and Entertainment Industry, the MANDATE trade union, chambers of commerce, the Law Society, the Bar Council, the Garda Síochána, the Road Safety Association, Mothers Against Drink Drivers and many more. The above groups are a sample of the diversity of input from the general public and from law enforcement and professional bodies. Can we dismiss their detailed submissions without carefully considering the merits and demerits of their separate views? I think not.

Opinions were expressed on matters relevant to many aspects of the trade including pub opening and closing times, bar extensions and drinking up times, off-licences in their own premises, in supermarkets or filling stations etc., tourism in the context of the sale of liquor in restaurants and the sale of food in pubs, hotel licences, theatre licences, special exemptions licences, transfer licences, underage drinking, identification cards, noise pollution, etc. The list is as long as my arm. These are all relevant to the reform of licensing hours. Are we to support a Bill which precludes discussion on most of those items? I advise not. We owe it to all who made contributions to the select committee to ensure that their valuable submissions are discussed and evaluated. We must afford concerned parties a hearing when they have taken the time and trouble to put pen to paper on matters relevant to themselves and the public. We do not have a God-given right to determine public opinion. We must listen as well as legislate, and we must be advised by our committees and committees of this House. We should not set up bodies and committees to examine issues if we will not allow the public the democratic right to a hearing as is their right. If we allowed this approach to prevail, Oireachtas committees would lose their credibility and the difficult and painstaking work of all future Oireachtas committees would be undermined. That would be a heavy price to pay for blatant political opportunism.

I congratulate the Minister on his express concern to ensure ample debating time on the whole issue. We cannot legislate on one aspect of the licensed trade without considering the impact on the overall scene. We must use the consultative process.

I am delighted to support the Minister's position and to know that Deputy Flanagan, the very able chairman of our subcommittee, has indicated that Fine Gael will also support the Government position tonight when, for the first time, I will be voting with Fine Gael.

Dr. Upton

It is the shape of things to come. I am sure the Deputy will get to enjoy it.

I too support the Minister's position. The number of opinions should not be an excuse for delaying legislation. This area must be examined, and we are examining it at present.

There is an argument for extending opening hours. The development of this industry and of European law indicates there is a need for new licensing laws. Bar extensions and the preparation of food must also be looked at in the European context and in the light of what consumers require. The majority of consumers want longer opening hours but they also want the grey area of bar extensions and food preparation dealt with by legislation. The abolition of Sunday closing from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. seems sensible, but opening pubs and clubs on Good Friday is unacceptable.

The critical part of this and any future legislation in the area relates to off-licences. There are off-licences in many major stores, and these should be governed by clear laws. Off-licences are a cause of worry to parents because much under age drinking starts with young people getting older friends to purchase drink for consumption elsewhere. There are similar problems in supermarkets.

There are many submissions on this subject that will have to be taken into consideration. Off-licence activity should be monitored and curtailed. The concept of identity cards should also be addressed. Education in relation to drink is not dealt with in this Bill, and that has to be part of an overall package to confront the social problems caused by drink. Parents and various organisations are demanding such a package and we must respond. I support the Minister and hope we do not have to wait too long for detailed legislation in this area.

I thank my colleagues for sharing their time. Members have lacerated Deputy Upton for his Bill, but I compliment him. No matter how flawed a Bill is, it takes a certain amount of work before it can be introduced. I agree with some aspects of the Bill, though there is much I disagree with.

This debate comes at an opportune time. A committee of the House is discussing this matter, but there is public unease about this. There seem to be different opening hours in different counties. If we are to believe the newspapers some western counties have to serve last pints a little earlier than the rest of us. Any changes brought in will have to be balanced and uniform.

Deputy Upton's Bill suggests extending opening hours to 12.30 a.m. throughout the year. The present closing time of 11.30 p.m. is too early, particularly during the summer. People work during the long summer nights in rural areas and not long after entering a pub they are asked to finish. There is something special about getting a drink after closing time, and almost any person who takes a drink — there are a good few in this House — cannot say they have never had a drink in a public house when they should not have had. It is part of Irish culture. Forbidden fruit is always sweetest.

I support the abolition of Sunday closing. It places unnecessary restriction on publicans. There has been tremendous growth in sports on television, particularly on the Sky channel. Football matches are a regular feature of Sundays and many people like to have a few drinks while watching the game. By 2 p.m. it may be only half time in the game and customers will be asked to leave. It is the same for GAA matches in the summer. I cannot see why this should be tolerated. I await the outcome of deliberations of the committee dealing with this.

Another provision of Deputy Upton's Bill allows pubs to open on Good Friday, but I am totally opposed to this. There has been a trend in this area in the recent years; another example is the move to get rid of the Angelus bell, though it lasts only 60 seconds. Pubs are asked to close on only Christmas Day and Good Friday every year, even if they do not all close. There is a tradition that people change a little, perhaps through spiritual intervention, when it comes to Good Friday, and we should allow that day to remain special by leaving the pubs closed.

The debate revolves around how much regulation of the area is needed. I doubt that two Deputies would agree with all that is in this Bill but the area needs change and there must be greater consultation. The consumer is an important part of this process but has not been mentioned much so far. Consumers, pub owners, hoteliers, restaurant owners, owners of off-licences and club bar managements represent different enterprises which compete for this trade, and before imposing major changes we should consult them.

I would have serious reservations about asking bar staff to work longer hours. They already work very unsociable hours. When most people finish work they can go home and spend the evening with their families. Pub staff go to work when others are going out to enjoy themselves and many of them do not finish work until 1 a.m. If opening hours are extended, bar staff will have to work longer hours or publicans will have to introduce a shift system. In any event it will increase the cost of drink. When the price of the pint increases by 20p to 25p to facilitate this change, the punter might take note. Radical changes are necessary in the licensing laws and, while I welcome this debate, there should be greater consultation with interested parties before any decisions are made.

The state of the toilets in some public houses is disgraceful. Butcher shops have come under great scrutiny from the health authorities in recent years. It would be no harm if they spent some time visiting public houses to inspect their toilets. Many publicans could clean up their act in that regard and adhere to certain standards. However, the majority of publicans keep their premises in good order.

Underage drinking has become very common. In almost every town there are particular pubs where the young people drink. While it can be difficult to determine someone's age, the identity card is not utilised to its fullest. There should be a big clamp-down on underage drinking. There is nothing worse than seeing 15 or 16 year olds drunk in the street after being served alcohol in a public house. Publicans have responsibilities as well as rights.

I look forward to the subcommittee publishing its recommendations in the near future.

While I welcome the fact that this issue has come before the House, I would have preferred if Dr. Upton had waited until the subcommittee published its recommendations. The Bill is worthwhile in so far as it turns the spotlight on our licensing laws and, as a third generation publican, I welcome the opportunity to address the issue. In the past I blamed previous legislators for bringing inadequate legislation before the House.

I am pleased that a subcommittee of the House is engaged in a broad review of our licensing laws. Unfortunately, the Bill ignores the subcommittee's consultative process which has been taking place for some time. The Deputy should have waited until the committee had carried out its work before introducing the Bill. I am satisfied the subcommittee has consulted all the interested parties, but I do not believe all the necessary groupings were involved in the preparation of the Bill before the House.

I am pleased the subcommittee invited submissions from the various vintners groups as well as other groupings involved in the licensing laws. I recently attended the Laois vintners AGM at which vintners stated they were satisfied their submissions to the subcommittee were being examined as part of the overall review. I am sure they were alarmed that this Bill was introduced before all the submissions were made. The views of the trade, the public, the Garda Síochána, the unions and all other interested groups should be taken into account.

I compliment the work of the subcommittee, in particular my fellow townsman, Deputy Flanagan, who is chairman. I also thank the subcommittee of the previous Dáil for its work. I appreciate this is a complex issue and I thank the Minister for the position he has adopted. The licensing laws date back to 1833 and comprise 50 Acts. I also compliment those who made submissions to the subcommittee.

A number of changes have taken place in the public house trade. I recall, in particular, the change in Sunday evening licensing laws. Until recently public houses closed at 10 p.m. on Sundays and there were the usual fears and complaints about the extension to 11 p.m. The one hour extension has not brought about great social upheaval. Publicans are a responsible group of people and, having campaigned vigorously for extended hours, I am sure they will control their premises. Some years ago — before my time — public houses remained closed on St. Patrick's Day. While the rest of the world drowned the shamrock the Irish pubs remained closed. However, as a result of submissions from the various interested groups, public houses were allowed to open on St. Patrick's Day. It is now a family day out and the pre-parade drink is common practice.

Over the years publicans have actively aided and abetted our tourism industry. The tourist visit to Irish pubs is a regular occurrence. Various drink companies highlight the potential attraction of visiting Irish pubs and I would also venture to say it has meant extra profits for publicans. Many pubs now serve food, which has also helped the tourism industry. This has come about because publicans have invested in their properties. The extra cost involved in extending opening hours will be met by the publican's family. Most of the high level of service we hear about in the country pub is offered by the publican, his spouse and family. The extra hour would not be considered a disadvantage.

I support most of the issues in the Bill, but as a publican I am opposed to any change in the laws for Good Friday or Christmas Day. I would have preferred if Deputy Upton had waited until the subcommittee submitted its recommendation. However, I am pleased the issue is being highlighted and I was delighted to hear the Minister's comments yesterday evening.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Jim Higgins and Rabbitte.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I congratulate Deputy Upton for presenting this Bill. As I am sure all Deputies will appreciate, regardless of whether they agree with the content of the Bill, it is always a major achievement for an Opposition Deputy to bring forward a Private Members' Bill, given the scant resources available, the time needed to carry out research and the necessary consultation with legal advisers and interested parties. I realise this Bill has had a long gestation and has been prepared with great care. Deputy Upton has a long history of interest in the quality, type and opening and closing times of licensed premises in Dublin and throughout the country. He is acutely aware of the impact restrictive opening and closing hours of licensed premises have had on our economy. He has often commented on the antisocial nature of late night drinking and the consequent problems of young people spilling out on to the streets having consumed three or four pints very quickly.

The Bill recommends reasonable and responsible reform of the closing and opening times of licensed premises. The proposed 12.30 a.m. closing time would harmonise the winter and summer closing time difference with the retention of the 10.30 a.m. opening time. Deputy Upton's Bill also proposes the abolition of the much abused holy hour and an end to the mandatory closing of licensed premises on Good Friday. It is fair to say that customers of all licensed premises and clubs and the tourism industry, especially in Dublin, Cork and other urban centres, would benefit greatly by the changes proposed in the Licensed Premises (Opening Hours) Bill. These proposals would also provide a more sociable ambience for consumers enjoying a late evening drink. In an age when the customer is king, we cannot continue to refuse to accept the wishes and the needs of the consumer.

Throughout history the management of alcoholic drink has proved to be a difficult issue. In the 19th century, there were massive crusades against alcoholism led by Father Matthew. Thomas Davis, one of the great men of 1848, in his Nation newspaper, identified abuse of drink as, perhaps, the Irish nation's greatest social weakness. Families and homes throughout the 19th century were wrecked and the ugly evil of domestic violence and abuse of wives and children was nothing short of barbaric.

Throughout most of this century, the State has wrestled with the management of alcohol as one of the two social drugs of choice. In more deprived areas, the abuse of alcohol in the past exerted a destructive influence on the lives of families and a major component of poverty in such areas has been the huge proportion of family income spent on alcohol. The current licensing laws and opening hours have undoubtedly contributed to making the control of alcohol abuse more difficult and for this reason particularly I welcome the Bill.

Deputy Upton noted that a decade ago, the then Minister for Justice, Gerry Collins, abolished some of the most archaic remnants of the administration of social drinking. However, the current licensing laws clearly need further reform. Irish society has changed immensely for the better over recent decades and a more mature attitude to alcohol has developed among most of the population. As noted last night, the Irish population ranks about midway in the EU table of per capita alcohol consumption which is well below that of countries such as Australia, New Zealand and the countries of central Europe, such as Hungary and the Czech Republic. The percentage of adults who do not drink alcohol is, at 24 per cent, well in line with the OECD average.

The old boorish and sexist elements of drinking are also buried at last. Male only bars have been eliminated. It is not too long ago — just over a decade — that it was common to see women being refused a drink in male only bars in my constituency. The general convivial and community nature of social drinking in recent decades, especially in the past ten years, has, with good food supply, turned many pubs into the key community facilities of the district. One of the hostelries in my constituency, the Baldoyle House, made history a few years ago by providing a cre che for parents enjoying Sunday lunch.

Much remains to be done. The far better social atmosphere provided by the sale of food with drink is something we need to encourage. It is astonishing that Dublin, with one third of the country's population, has less than 10 per cent of the drinks licences. A proliferation of smaller, proprietor run, community public houses, preferably with good food available most of the day, should be encouraged by legislation. It is also imperative that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Competition Authority should prevent the massive Guinness Diageo multinational from taking complete monopoly control of the drinks distribution business by absorbing United Beverages.

The modest reforming measures in the Bill will improve the current outdated and inappropriate opening hours. The proposed year round closing time of 12.30 a.m. will end many of the current irregularities and offer a more civilised choice to customers. It is well known the current system of granting late night exemptions has made a mockery of the legal opening hours, and Deputy Upton's estimate of 500,000 exemptions over the past decades shows how the current system of seeking exemptions has been circumvented by proprietors trying to make it a more humane system.

Other speakers referred to the tradition in recent years whereby the public like to go out to the local pub for a late evening drink, but because of opening hours, especially during winter, there is usually a frantic rush by most drinkers to finish their last drink. For drinkers with visiting tourists, there is the added embarrassment of loud, monotonous calls to drink up plus the strategic opening of large doors to freeze drinkers out of the bar. The seriously negative impact of this behaviour on our tourism industry is self-evident and should be addressed. In Dublin's northside, many of my constituents have noticed the mass evacuation of young drinkers from bars at approximately 11.30 each weekend night. Many of these young drinkers, having clearly thrown back a number of drinks very quickly, totter out on the footpath to frantically search for a taxi into town to continue their social evening. The Bill should contribute to a more mature facility for these young people. One of the most welcome provisions in section 8 is that it permits the courts to extend or restrict opening hours in accordance with local needs, including those of the tourism industry and for local celebration. It allows the population of a residential district to petition the court to restrict opening hours in the event of customers behaving badly or creating a serious nuisance in the neighbourhood. One of the most important changes which even critics of the Bill have welcomed is the ending of the so-called holy hour on Sundays. This recognises the positive changes in society, such as the family Sunday lunch and the crucial importance of the tourism industry.

I am aware Deputy Upton has consulted widely with the MANDATE trade union and workers in the licensed trade. It is critical the workforce should not be adversely affected in an already difficult and demanding job. Working hours are long already and bar staff need a wide range of skills to cope with a diverse range of consumers in a social situation. A large part of the Bill, sections 9 to 19 rightly sets out the rights of bar workers in the extended opening hours. Section 11 states employees are not obliged to do added work time without their consent and section 12 states an employee who opts out of such work cannot be discriminated against. Employees carrying out such work will be entitled to holiday time within the following week and to be paid overtime of at least time and a half. In section 14, employers must give four days' notice of added work time and employees in return must give three days' notice. It is heartening Deputy Upton has included a right of appeal by an aggrieved employee to a rights commissioner if he or she believes his or her rights under the Bill have been breached. The commissioner may order the offending employer to pay compensation of up to ten weeks' salary to the employee. The provisions of Part II are comprehensive and offer a valuable protection to employees with the operation of the new hours.

The Licensed Premises (Opening Hours) Bill is well conceived and well researched legislation which offers important reform in Irish social life. A similar approach by other countries such as Scotland and New Zealand has had beneficial civilising effects in those countries. Many of the elements to which I referred, such as the mass evacuation of pubs at 11.30 p.m. by young people and the consequent noisy streets, have been addressed by similar reforms in Scotland. On balance, it is legislation which the Minister should adopt. I am sure it will be equally successful as those of Scotland and New Zealand. I commend the legislation to Dáil Éireann.

(Mayo): I thank Deputy Broughan for sharing his time. I compliment Deputy Upton for bringing forward this legislation. Despite all the controversy surrounding it, Fine Gael will support it. As Deputy Moloney stated, the number of people anxious to participate in this debate exemplifies the high degree of interest in the issue, the central role of the pub in Irish life and the fact that there is a cross-party consensus on the long overdue need to radically reappraise and amend pub opening hours. Consolidating legislation is needed which deals in a comprehensive fashion with the area of liquor licensing. After that is in place we need a uniform enforcement of the law instead of a total variation in standards — rigid application in some areas and literally no application in other areas. The present system, based on a series of laws put in place by various Acts, is a shambles. Reference has been made to the founding Act of l833. There are also the Acts of 1835, l836, 1845, 1854, 1855, 1860, 1862, 1863, 1864, 1872, 1874 and l877. In the 20th century there are have Intoxicating Liquor Licensing Acts from l902, l909, l910, 1924, 1927, 1943, 1946, 1953, 1960, 1962, 1981 and 1988. It is no wonder there is confusion, in relation to the body of law governing the liquor trade. Many of the Acts build on the preceding Acts by reinforcing or strengthening them in some manner. For example, section 13 of the Licensing Act, l872, introduces a penalty for the publican who permits drunkenness or any violent quarrelsome or riotous conduct to take place in his premises or who sells any intoxicating liquor to any drunken person. Section 14 of the 1872 Act introduces a £20 fine for any licensed person who knowingly permits his premises to be the habitual resort of, or place of meeting of, reputed prostitutes whether the object of their resorting or meeting is or is not prostitution. He shall, if he allows them to remain there, or remain longer than is necessary for the purpose of obtaining reasonable refreshment, be liable to a penalty not exceeding £20 for the first offence and £40 for a second and subsequent offence. These penalties are doubled in section 30 of the Intoxicating Liquor (General) Act, l924. Section 10 of the Prevention of Crimes Act, 1871, provides that every person who occupies or keeps any lodging house, any beer house, public house or other house or place where intoxicating liquors are sold, or any place of public entertainment, or public resort who knowingly permits or knowingly suffers them to meet or assemble there, or knowingly allows them to deposit goods therein, having reasonable cause for believing them to be stolen, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding £10.

Section 31 of the Intoxicating Liquors Act, l988, deals with the sale of intoxicating liquor to those under 18 years of age. Section 34 of the same Act prohibits children unaccompanied by parents or a guardian to be on a licensed premises. The law prohibits the granting of exemptions on Saturdays. The result is that hotels all over the country which run various functions, including dinner dances on Saturday nights, are technically in breach of the licensing laws if they serve one drink past midnight or if members of the public are on the premises after midnight consuming alcohol, bought on the premises, prior to that hour. In such a farcical situation the vast majority of sensible gardaí have had to turn a blind eye. The nonsense of this is further highlighted in that the same premises, which cannot get an exemption on Saturday night-Sunday morning can get an exemption on Sunday night-Monday morning without any difficulty. Senior citizens who must exit from the pub at 11 p.m. or 11.30 p.m. on a Saturday night are met at their home doorstep by their teenage grandchildren who can be served in discos, night clubs and clubs until the early hours of the morning.

I welcome the thorough and painstaking work being undertaken by the sub-committee of the Joint Committee of Justice, Equality and Women's Rights, of which Deputy Flanagan is chairman, in sifting through the mountain of legislation and evaluating the written and oral submissions. They have done tremendous work in preparing the ground for this debate which will resume after Easter and for whatever legislation will eventually emerge to bring in a sensible regime to govern this area.

Reference has been made to the problem of teenage drinking. There is no doubt that there is an orgy of teenage drinking. When first-year students of 12 and 13 years of age arrive at post primary schools on a Monday morning smelling of stale alcohol fumes and visibly hungover it is time to examine and reappraise the situation. Unfortunately that is the position in virtually every post primary school in the country. There is no doubt the law on under age drinking is being disregarded in most cases.

There is also the other side of the coin, parental responsibility. The performance of parents in this regard is scandalously negligent. There is absolutely no point in expecting the State to be the moral parental guardian if parents have not sufficient interest to insist on their offspring being in at a reasonable time. I am not talking about midnight or 12.30 a.m. If they do not collect them, do not know their means of transport home, do not check their condition, do not know at what time they arrive home they are guilty of criminal negligence. If children know there are no boundaries, no limits, no parental checks and no parental interest, who can blame them if they decide to indulge? The streets of urban and rural Ireland at 3 a.m., 4 a.m. and 5 a.m. every Sunday morning are littered with bottles, beer cans, bodies, vomit, urine and blood. These young people are the mirror of the so-called modern Ireland of the new millennium.

Parents are not being fair to their children by not establishing and insisting on limits. I do not know where we went wrong but I ask what has happened to the basic requirements of parental maturity and responsibility. I am a former teacher and taught until 12 years ago. At that time it was the norm that teachers attended secondary, vocational, comprehensive and community school graduation balls. It was a sine qua non. Nowadays teachers are not invited and, if they were so invited, would decline because of the embarrassing performances that inevitably take place and which have become part of the graduation ball scene.

The present splurge of teenage drunkenness is serious and is wreaking havoc on society. The rack and the ruin has yet to be seen in many cases. The combination of under age drinking, late drinking and takeaways where people disgorge from discos and dance halls at 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. means that many of the streets in rural Ireland have become no-go areas. Many senior citizens are no longer able to enjoy peace and quiet in the tranquillity of their homes. We have a major public order problem which is fuelled to a large extent by uncontrolled under age drinking.

The law has a role. I do not want to pre-empt the steering committee's recommendations in its report. It is clear that sensible consolidating legislation is required. People will argue it should be laissez faire, that pubs should be allowed to remain open for as long as they wish. They cite the United States and the European situation in support of same. For some reason in the whole area of alcohol consumption we have yet to come of age as a nation.

I agree with the argument for extending the hours. However, there is something in the Irish psychology to indicate that if the opening hours are extended to 1 a.m., people will not arrive in the pub until 12.45 a.m. If the opening hours are extended to 2 a.m. or 3 a.m., people will not arrive in the pub until 1.45 a.m. or 2.45 a.m. I do not know the reason but that is the reality.

I plead with the Minister to enforce all the laws uniformly. It is impossible to understand the present selective purge in relation to the strict enforcement of the licensing laws in the four counties of Mayo, Roscommon, Galway and Clare. I have no problem with enforcing the law rigidly across the board. However, I understand that for this zero tolerance additional Garda personnel are not required. It is a case of sending an unequivocal message to publicans in these counties that they must close on time. The corollary of this message, and the policy which is in contrast to it, has to be that after hours drinking is tolerated in the other 22 counties. This selective application of the law is what happens in totalitarian regimes. The law must have national application or else it should be scrapped. What is happening is unfair and, perhaps, unconstitutional in that the principle of fair and even-handed enforcement of the law is being flouted.

An argument is put forward to extend the licensing laws from the point of view of tourism. I do not agree with this. I have a theory that most tourists like to go to bed early and get up early to avail of whatever is on offer from the tour companies. The majority of pubs would get very few tourists hanging around at 11 or 12 o'clock at night.

I support the spirit of this Bill but the concerns of MANDATE are genuine. There is an erosion of professionalism in the bar trade as witnessed by the fact that very few apprentices are doing the three year Dublin Institute of Technology course. There is a major danger that extending the licensing hours will lead to growing casualisation, double-jobbing and a further development of the black economy. I appreciate that Deputy Upton has tried to redress this in sections 9 to 19. However, far more dialogue is needed with MANDATE. There is obvious abuse. Some floor staff are being paid £5 per night in Dublin to work from 7 p.m. until 1 a.m. This indicates how the black economy is thriving in the trade. I urge the Government to give serious consideration to the Bill. I support the broad thrust of it.

I am glad to have the opportunity of speaking in support of the thrust of the Bill. I congratulate Deputy Upton for bringing it forward and keeping the pressure on for modernisation in this area. Three years ago I was asked to present the Pub of the Year contest. Having said a few words on the role of the pub in Ireland, the quality of food, cleanliness and the value to tourism I could not think of anything else to say. I then spoke of how the licensing laws were out of date and the world fell in on top of me. I was verbally slaughtered by everyone with the exception of Paddy Murray in The Star. MANDATE also came down on me and trade unionists said how dare I fool around with their hours of work. They were inveterately opposed to it and so on. The mothers of ten also had a field day denouncing me. It is amazing that three years later we are on the verge of legislating to bring the law out of disrepute and into some kind of synch with modern developments. Notwithstanding the Minister's rejection of the Bill, we will introduce such legislation in the lifetime of this Dáil.

I fundamentally challenge the notion that if more drinking time is available people will drink more and we will become a nation of drunkards. It is like saying that if there are too many days of sunshine in the summer people will not come back from St. Stephen's Green at lunchtime because it is so congenial and the weather is so fine. The amount that one drinks does not relate to the duration of the licensing hours.

There is a very dark side to drink. However, people who have a problem with drink will have such a problem whether the licensing hours are as they are or as proposed in the Bill. I do not believe the arguments I was subjected to at the time. I received some pretty horrific charges in letters. Some were genuinely intended such as those which claimed that it would cause more mayhem on the roads and more people would be killed. I do not believe this. There is an arguable case for the opposite. There is a practice, especially in Dublin, of disgorging people onto the streets at the same time and bringing in traffic laws which say that they should not drive but should get a taxi or public transport. However, public transport is either finished or unavailable and a person cannot get a taxi because everyone is looking for one at the same time. We are supposed to believe this is a contribution to road safety but I do not think it is.

Many other jurisdictions have extended their licensing hours and have not gone to ruin. Everyone has not become alcoholic because there are longer drinking hours. The argument has been won and it is a question of looking at the detail. I have no firm views on the detail. I would settle for an hour's extension on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights and an end to the holy hour. People should accept that the holy hour ended in practice a long time ago. I do not know of the wisdom of including Good Friday in the Bill. This may cause offence to some people. It is a special day in the religious calendar and some people would feel it ought not be included and perhaps they are right. However, the thrust of the Bill is right.

I agree with much of what Deputy Higgins said but I do not agree with him on tourism. There are different categories of tourist. It is an important industry and there is no doubt there is a kind of tourist who is utterly perplexed by our licensing laws and who wishes to have the facility to drink after a show or going to the theatre and so on. From the point of view of tourism as a huge money spinner and the role it plays in this economy, we have to deal with this issue. We should not confuse this with lager louts who pay us an occasional visit because they get 20 per cent more for their pound sterling now than they did a short time ago. One can bet that people who wish to come here and act the lager lout will do so whether one calls a halt to drinking at 11 p.m. or midnight. This argument does not stand up to scrutiny.

There have been objections to this Bill from trade unions. Deputy Higgins raised a number of considerations which are uppermost in the minds of MANDATE. Deputy Upton has gone out of his way in Part II to try to provide for the rights of workers in the industry being protected and that is right and necessary. Proper rostered shift work will be introduced. That is what is required and it is capable of being negotiated with those who are doing well in the business at present. The trade union in this area is strong.

If I had time, I would say a few words about the question of licensing, another issue with which I was concerned in the past. I congratulate Deputy Upton and I am sorry the Government is unable to accept his Bill. I hope it will bring forward its own Bill as early as possible.

I agree with the stance taken by the Minister and the Government which is opposed to the Bill, the thrust of which will probably be dealt with in future legislation. As Deputy Rabbitte said, there is a need for change but this should occur only in the context of a total review of the liquor licensing laws. Deputy Rabbitte mentioned that when he made similar suggestions three years ago the roof fell in on top of him. Providing for an extension of opening hours only, as suggested by Deputy Upton, is the wrong approach. It should form part of an overall package.

This issue is being examined by an all-party committee to which I have recently been appointed under the chairmanship of Deputy Flanagan to whom I pay tribute. It is the committee's intention to present a package of measures within the next few months based on the outcome of its review of the liquor licensing laws. I hope the Government will then be in a position to introduce changes which reflect the social changes in society to which the Minister and other speakers alluded.

I welcome the fact that the Minister intends to hold a seminar on 24 April. This will give all those involved in the industry and the many groups which appeared before the committee an opportunity to make their views known.

There are some aspects of the Bill with which I fundamentally disagree. I do not agree with the proposed changes in relation to Good Friday, that public houses should be allowed to open at 10.30 am on Sundays or remain open for an extra hour on Sunday nights. We should not go down this road, although an exception could perhaps be made in the case of bank holidays and so forth. I have had the opportunity to express my views on these matters at the committee. As far as I am aware, consumers are not demanding that public houses should be allowed to open at 10.30 a.m. on Sundays. There is limited demand in relation to Good Friday. I would adopt a much more restrictive approach.

As the Minister said, everyone has a view on this subject. There is a need to strike the correct balance. Issues such as alcohol abuse and the way we approach drink are a source of great concern to many people.

Under-age drinking is a major problem throughout the country. It has social implications. The by-laws relating to parks in the Fingal County Council area have had to be changed. Each park has had to be cleared of its shrubbery and trees due to anti-social activity. This is a sad reflection on society. I am aware from contributions at the committee that the problem is not confined to north County Dublin. The committee has many ideas on how it should be approached. The sale of alcohol in off-licences and supermarkets and the enforcement of the law by the Garda Síochána must be addressed in the review. To cherry-pick a few ideas from previous reports is the wrong approach. Perhaps Deputy Upton will indicate what response he received to his proposals in recent weeks.

Because people's habits have changed and there is greater competition in the market I agree with Deputy Upton that there is a need for change and that the consumer is entitled to expect some changes to be made in the law after a period of ten years but many view the extension of opening hours as a negative development. As I said, I hope this will form part of a package of measures to be introduced by the Minister later this year following the completion of the review of the liquor licensing laws. The package should address under-age drinking and the hours at which people leave public houses located in neighbourhoods. The issue of education should also be addressed, while the provision relating to the holy hour on Sundays should be placed on a proper legal footing.

Some aspects of the Bill are welcome and I hope they will form part of future legislation. While I am not in favour of a blanket extension of opening hours, the towns in my constituency are developing, in conjunction with the local authority and the Dublin Tourist Board, a marketing strategy to attract tourists to the region. To this end I am in favour of flexibility in the law in terms of extended opening hours. It is premature to deal with this Bill and the Minister is correct to oppose it. I hope to take part in the sub-committee's review of the liquor laws and in bringing forward proposals for comprehensive legislation to deal with all the issues pertaining to the licensing and liquor laws. I hope the Minister will introduce comprehensive legislation in this session.

I wish to share time with Deputy Noel Ahern.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

We knew this matter was going to come up for discussion over the coming months, but it is being debated sooner than expected. Deputy Upton has jumped the gun in introducing this Bill. I was not part of the committee which discussed this issue and which will be reporting within a number of months. It would have been proper to wait for the committee to produce its considered views.

Last night somebody said we are all experts when it comes to licensing laws and everybody has their own point of view. I was secretary of a sports club for seven years and I thought I knew something about legislation governing clubs, pubs and restaurants and the associated hassle and difficulties, including going to court to get extension licences, providing menus, etc. I remember gardaí coming to see a sample meal on the night of a function. Chicken and chips and a few peas was not enough and we got into big trouble over it. I do not know what is happening now, as some pubs stop serving shortly after 11 o'clock while others remain open until 1.30 a.m. with no evidence of food. I am confused about the type of licences people have and wonder whether they are enforced or regulated. The matter seems to be fudged.

I do not know or care whether people drink in tourist areas until 5 o'clock in the morning, be it in Temple Bar, Bray seafront, Howth, Salthill or anywhere else. However, there is a huge distinction between pubs in such places and ordinary suburban pubs. The Bill proposes a closing time of 12.30 a.m. This is excessive. It has some merit when applied to Friday and Saturday nights in some areas, but there is no justification for it in ordinary suburban pubs from Monday to Thursday. Most people have to get up in the morning and do a day's work. There might be an image of people down the country staying up all night — I do not know whether they work all day. However, allowing people who have to get up by 8. a.m. for work drink until 12.30 a.m. or 1 o'clock is uncalled for, unnecessary and would be damaging. There might be some merit in such a closing time for Friday and Saturday nights.

Deputy Upton has included a clause about geographic location. This is vital as there may be some pubs in Dublin which I would allow open until 12.30 a.m. on a Friday or Saturday night but there are others I would not and which are already causing huge problems. The Bill speaks about the courts making decisions. The courts have power under existing legislation to remove licences but this does not appear to happen. Pub owners always manage to get court decisions in their favour. Any provision for pubs opening late even one night a week would require a new system with local input, perhaps involving local authorities, to deal with such matters. A publican will hit the roof if this matter is mentioned as he will say that the licence is as valuable as anybody else's, but extension of the laws will require the introduction of two types of licences, namely, one under which pubs close at 11.30 p.m. and one which provides for opening after that time.

Many pubs are no longer small places with up to two dozen people drinking in them. Some are located in the middle of residential areas and have music, etc. They cause huge hassle to neighbours. We all like the idea of a pub staying open late when we are in it, but we must consider the people living adjacent to it. Any provision for extensions will have to distinguish between different types of licences, although I do not know how this can be done. Leaving it up to the court to consider or cut back on opening hours if there is anti-social behaviour on an ongoing basis is not sufficient. The legislation must enshrine a different system from the outset.

It is important that we congratulate Deputy Upton on introducing this Bill as it has sparked a debate on an issue close to the heart of most people. We are talking about the opening hours of something which has become a national institution. It is important when dealing with such matters not tamper too much with them. Deputy Rabbitte referred to the fact that the economy has benefited from tourism, but we must not turn the economy or the country upside down to facilitate the demands of tourists who are allegedly seeking longer opening hours, similar to those on the Continent. A distinct society and ethos has developed around pubs which must be protected rather than interfered with. Part of the attraction of Ireland is the crowded, busy pub full of conversation. We should be careful before meddling with this.

Others, including the Minister, have pointed out that this matter will be dealt with by the Select Committee on Legislation and Security which is considering a number of different options. I understand some of Deputy Upton's suggestions, including the retention of the ordinary opening hour of 10.30 a.m., the extension of opening time during weekdays in summer and winter and the abolition of the holy hour, form part of the recommendations of the committee. It is important that the industry be consulted in relation to these proposals.

I oppose all-night drinking. For some reason it is fashionable to believe that all-night drinking will make the job of the Garda easier. I do not believe this is true, but rather that it would worsen the situation. We should solve any existing problem of drink driving at a criminal level by imposing heavier penalties and liberalising the hackney and taxi industry in order that people can be carried from pubs at relatively low cost.

It may be necessary to develop other licensed outlets in the context of restaurants, nightclubs, etc. However, the character of the pub should be protected for a number of reasons. In my constituency publicans are very involved in the community through subsidising football teams and in encouraging a myriad of social contacts. This should be encouraged. The issue of subjecting publicans to the rigours of competition law, upon which I understand the Competition Authority will soon be reporting, should be raised. Sponsorship is not a normal activity but it is one which is of great importance and forms part of our social life. The rigorous rules of competition law should not be applied to publicans. A broadening of the licensing laws would not necessarily be helpful either. Problems have been experienced in the past with drug barons laundering money through various outlets. If we over-liberalise the issuing of pub licences, similar problems may be experienced. We must be cautious about this issue as it impinges on our character as a nation and on our ability to attract tourists. I welcome Deputy Upton's measure and he is to be applauded for opening up this debate but we should wait for the Select Committee on Legislation and Security to come up with recommendations after it has consulted the industry.

I wish to share my remaining time with Deputy Cooper-Flynn.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill as its subject is an issue close to my heart.

The Deputy should vote for the Bill in that case.

However, it is somewhat opportunistic of Deputy Upton to introduce the Bill at this stage. The Deputy is a member of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security which is dealing specifically with this issue. I understand that Deputy Flanagan is carrying out a great deal of research on this issue and is contacting all interested parties about it. The committee will present a report to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform which will I hope be debated here in the Dáil. While I recognise that this issue needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency, it was not appropriate for Deputy Upton to jump the gun by introducing the Bill before the report was produced. I am sure his colleagues on the other side of the House are disappointed he did that.

I regard this Bill as a direct response to the needs of the west of Ireland. Nothing major has happened in regard to licensing laws for the past 30 years with the exception of some tinkering in the early 1990s. Essentially our licensing laws have remained unchanged. All that has happened is that a pilot scheme has been set up in the west of Ireland by the Garda who strictly enforce the legislation as it currently applies.

Zero tolerance.

I fully support zero tolerance. The Garda in County Mayo and other western counties strictly enforce the legislation. I fully support that. It is inappropriate that uniformed gardaí are responsible for clearing pubs. That is not their job and I can understand why they would be infuriated at being forced into such a position over the years. It is appropriate that this issue has been thrown back into the political domain and that we, as legislators, have been asked to do something about it. The correct way of doing that at this time is for Deputy Flanagan, as the chairman of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security, to present his report and recommendations to the Minister. The issue can then be thoroughly debated in this House.

Current pub opening hours are out of date and completely out of synch with other European countries. While I recognise that the issue of alcohol abuse is of great concern to many people, people who abuse alcohol do so well within the current opening hours. The extension of opening hours will not alter that. There is a need to extend licensing hours, particularly on Fridays and Saturdays throughout the entire industry. This issue is also of relevance to our tourism industry. An unusual situation prevails in County Mayo at present where 14 and 15 year olds can be out until two or three o'clock in the morning attending night-clubs but the rest of us are obliged to be tucked in our beds by midnight. Given the nature of my job, if I want to go out socially, I unfortunately tend only to be able to get into these kind of late night establishments. I would prefer not to spend every night sitting at home.

It is important that the correct consultation process occurs on this issue. There are a number of people concerned about it, not just those directly involved in the industry. Members of the general public also hold very strong views which have been outlined to me by callers to my constituency office. Every person has an opinion on this issue.

Deputy Upton stated that he would like pubs to stay open until 12.30 a.m. each day. There is not a need for that although I would like to see a 12.30 a.m. closing time on Friday and Saturday nights. I am not totally happy with the idea of pubs being open on Good Friday. In the past, members of my family have owned public houses and the Good Friday closing allowed them an opportunity to wash the curtains if nothing else. That probably does not happen often enough in many public houses, judging by the bad condition in which some are kept. However, many of the modern premises are a credit to their owners. I do not think it is too much of a sacrifice to ask anyone to close a pub on Good Friday and Christmas Day.

It is very important that the overwhelming view to come from this discussion is that we fully support the action of the Garda in enforcing the current legislation. I am confident, having listened to the Minister earlier today, that he will give the report of the select committee serious consideration and will deal with it as a matter of urgency in the interest of all of those in our community who stand to benefit.

I compliment Deputy Upton on bringing this Bill before the House. Deputy Cooper-Flynn is right; the law is crazy in this area.

I never said the law was crazy.

I want the Deputy to speak to the Minister and get him to call off the zero tolerance campaign currently ongoing in the five western counties. If this pilot scheme was good news, it would certainly not have commenced in the west. I do not understand why the Garda cannot commence this campaign in the south. If it was successful down there, we would have been happy to take it on board.

The scheme will be extended to other parts of the country.

The real Taoiseach, Deputy Healy-Rae, would not allow this scheme to commence in the south. I saluted him as the real Taoiseach today and he liked it. The real Tánaiste, Deputy Fox, was with him. Nothing good ever happens for the west of Ireland.

I welcome the fact that Deputy Flanagan will lay a report before the Minister. However, Deputies Flanagan, Upton and I can make all the recommendations we like but the Minister is the only one who can change the law. Deputy Cooper-Flynn should highlight the need for such change.

Nothing changed for the past 30 years.

The pub closing hours are outdated.

People in Castlebar are obliged to leave pubs at 11.30 p.m. to go to night clubs in the Welcome Inn and the Travellers' Friend hotels. There should be a level playing field for everyone. Pubs, clubs and hotels should all be obliged to close at 1 a.m. The Government and the Minister for Finance will find other ways of raising any revenue which might be lost. People in Westport, Castlebar, Aughagower, Drummin, Cushlough or even Knock are forced to leave pubs at 11.30 p.m. and go to discos or night clubs. I live beside a hotel and it is almost impossible to get any sleep on Saturday or Sunday nights. People coming out of the night clubs still think they are dancing and continue to dance on people's cars and lawns. In America people go out at 8 p.m. and come home at 11 p.m.

Debate adjourned.
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