Proinsias De Rossa
Ceist:2 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach the plans, if any, he has to meet the British Prime Minister to discuss the political situation in the aftermath of the elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly. [15786/98]
Ceisteanna—Questions. - Northern Ireland Issues.
Proinsias De Rossa
Ceist:3 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of the elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly and his assessment of the implications of the outcome for future political developments in Northern Ireland. [15787/98]
John Bruton
Ceist:4 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will make a statement on the outcome of the Northern Ireland Assembly elections. [15793/98]
John Bruton
Ceist:5 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the plans, if any, he has to meet the leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland following the Northern Ireland Assembly elections. [15794/98]
John Bruton
Ceist:6 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the discussions, if any, he has had with the British Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, following the Northern Ireland Assembly elections. [15795/98]
Ruairí Quinn
Ceist:7 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the preparatory work, if any, undertaken in identifying the six matters for co-operation to be explored by the North-South Ministerial Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15949/98]
Ruairí Quinn
Ceist:8 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the contacts, if any, he has had with the British Prime Minister, the US President and the leaders of the Northern Ireland political parties since the results of the Northern Ireland Assembly elections; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15952/98]
Ruairí Quinn
Ceist:9 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the Minister who will join him on the North-South Ministerial Council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15953/98]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 9, inclusive, together.
The Assembly elections represent an important milestone in the implementation of the British-Irish Agreement and were an expression of the democratic will of the people in Northern Ireland. The Assembly will allow politicians in Northern Ireland to take control of many aspects of their own affairs and give them an opportunity to work together in a democratic way for the betterment of all. There can be no doubt that the majority of the people in Northern Ireland want the British-Irish Agreement, including the Assembly, to work. It can and will work effectively.
I had very positive meetings with the SDLP and Sinn Féin this week and I have also been in contact with the other parties to the British-Irish Agreement. I have not been in contact with President Clinton since the Assembly elections because he is currently visiting China. However, I have spoken with the US Ambassador who has been in contact with the President's officials.
I had the opportunity to meet the Prime Minister Mr. Blair while in Frankfurt for the launch of the European Central Bank yesterday, and we have also spoken on the telephone. We took the opportunity to discuss recent developments and the results of the Assembly elections. We expressed the hope that we could get through the marching season without further violence and agreed that dialogue was still the only way to achieve an outcome acceptable to everyone involved. We shared the view that at this critical stage in the development of political stability in Northern Ireland, everyone has a responsibility to ensure that the progress that has been made over the past 12 months is not eroded and that the momentum for real change and genuine reconciliation is maintained. We looked forward to working together with the newly elected Assembly representatives in moving further forward with the Agreement's implementation in the coming weeks and months.
At the twice yearly meetings of the Joint North-South Council in plenary format, I will be accompanied by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and by one or more Ministers depending on the agreed agenda for the session in question. A subgroup of the steering group which has been set up to oversee implementation of all aspects of the agreement is focusing specifically on the North-South elements it contains. This group is comprised of officials from the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Finance, the Attorney General's office and my Department. A round of discussions with Departments as a basis for developing further the Government's position regarding the implementation of the strand two arrangements has been completed. The Government's earlier position in the multi-party negotiations was based on a large amount of interdepartmental work and consultation. The results of the further recent round of consultations will now be considered by the steering group and at political level.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. When he met Sinn Féin representatives, did the Taoiseach impress on them the need for that party to use its influence to encourage those of its members and supporters who oppose parades to take a step back and engage only in silent and peaceful protests? Does the Taoiseach agree, following his meeting with representatives of the SDLP, with the view expressed by Séamus Mallon that people, particularly Nationalists from other parts of Ireland, should stay away from Portadown in an effort to de-escalate tensions there?
I met a Sinn Féin delegation last night and an SDLP delegation the night before. I raised the points made by Deputy De Rossa and the Sinn Féin delegation agreed that the law must be adhered to in respect of marches, that decisions which have been made must be upheld and that people should not congregate at marches or gatherings near the Garvaghy Road, Lurgan, the Springfield Road and other places. I made the point that Sinn Féin and others should do everything in their power to ensure that people do not gather to protest about these marches or answer calls to travel to Portadown. That would be entirely unhelpful, particularly if the marches planned for the weekend proceed. I hope the law will be upheld and I believe people should not try to make the situation worse.
The parades commission has made its determination and, provided nothing else happens — I hope it does not — that determination should be upheld. People should accept the commission's decision and they should not try to make the RUC's job more difficult by congregating in the area in question.
In the Taoiseach's opinion, why, following the successful conclusion of the British-Irish Agreement and the holding of the Assembly elections, has the IRA not stated that the war is over and that its arsenal of weapons can now be considered redundant?
I cannot provide an answer because I have no contact with the IRA. In terms of meetings with Sinn Féin and other groups, I hope I have emphasised to them that the war is over. With regard to Provisional IRA activity, advice from the security forces indicates that things are calm and quiet. I welcome that but I would also welcome any positive statements that organisation may have to offer. Pádraig Wilson's recent statement was of some benefit because he is a senior representative of the organisation. In the context of the full implementation of the agreement on all fronts, signals from paramilitary groups placing beyond doubt their commitment to exclusively peaceful and democratic methods would be a positive development. I take this opportunity to urge them to make statements to that effect.
I asked the Taoiseach for his opinion on why the IRA will not state that the war is over. Will he do so now? What in the Taoiseach's view is the connection between Sinn Féin and the IRA? I understand he met representatives of Sinn Féin last night. Did they provide an indication why the IRA has adhered to the position it adopted last April that there will be no decommissioning of arms? To date, no one has been nominated on behalf of the IRA or Sinn Féin to liaise with the decommissioning commission.
In terms of the decommissioning commission, the regulations have been signed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, and the British Minister of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Adam Ingram, and the clock has already started ticking on the two year period laid down in the Agreement in respect of decommissioning.
With regard to my opinion on the IRA's position, I do not like to make assessments of people I do not know or with whom I have never had any involvement. However, I have continually urged Sinn Féin to recognise that we are involved in trying to move forward with the Agreement. I spend hours every day trying to ensure full implementation of the Agreement on all fronts and trying to convince everybody to be positive. The British Government and the other parties, including Sinn Féin, are being positive about moving the Agreement forward.
Signals from the paramilitary groups which would put their commitment to exclusively peaceful methods beyond doubt would be a positive development. I can only assume these groups watch what is happening. I have met people from south Armagh and other areas in the North recently, who have nothing to do with the IRA and they have told me they see no diminution in road blocks or army and RUC checkpoints, the continued construction of army bases and towers and as many patrols as ever. Perhaps that influences the paramilitary groups and they do not see demilitarisation progressing. My response is that the people voted for the Agreement and the paramilitaries should not wait to see such demilitarisation. However, that may be in their minds.
I recollect the Taoiseach saying that he regarded Sinn Féin and the IRA as two sides of the same coin and I share his view. In the context of the frequent discussions he has had with Sinn Féin, has he raised with it the desirability of a significant confidence building measure? As Mr. Séamus Mallon has said, the power lies with Sinn Féin and the IRA to send a signal. In his most recent talks with the Sinn Féin leaders has the Taoiseach raised the issue of a communication, in the form of words they choose, to indicate that the war is over? The fears of many in the Unionist community could be assuaged by such an utterance.
Nobody would be happier than I if there was a statement from the IRA to say that the war was over and if it was prepared to follow General De Chastelain's recommendations on decommissioning. In terms of progress there is no evident militant activity from the IRA. Sinn Féin's information is in line with what I receive on the security situation, that is, that the cease-fire is holding. It is suggested that there is targeting but there appears to be far less targeting and fewer punishment beatings, although even one such beating is one too many.
I get the sense that the Sinn Féin leadership is trying very hard, even harder than at the time of my earlier meetings with them, to keep control. Elected members of Sinn Féin spent several hours on the streets of Lurgan and west Belfast trying to prevent people from throwing stones and engaging in other such activities. They also made efforts on the Garvaghy Road issue some weeks ago. It is encouraging that the elected members are facing——
Has the Taoiseach raised the issue of a declaration that the war is over with the Sinn Féin leadership?
I raise it continually. Those involved with issuing such a signal may be watching to see how matters develop. The Sinn Féin people I have met seem determined to do all they can to ensure there are no problems. I have been through these issues with them many times over the past months and they are doing what they can to ensure these issues are addressed.
Sinn Féin needs the UUP, Mr. Trimble in particular, in order to make the Assembly work and for its members to become part of the executive. The decommissioning issue will be a longer term project but it is important that Sinn Féin recognises that a declaration to the effect that the war is over would assist Mr. Trimble greatly to move his party forward on the development of the executive and the Assembly. We are seeking to bed down politics at the centre of life in Northern Ireland and there must be constant pressure on Sinn Féin in particular to secure the required declaration.
I appreciate the difficulty Sinn Féin faces. It has spent 30 years creating a situation of victimhood and antagonism in Northern Ireland and it must now attempt to put that back in its bottle, so to speak. I appreciate that it is trying to do so and the difficulties that entails. However, bearing in mind that the current arrangements are an unprecedented approach to solving the problems in Northern Ireland, all sides must have regard to the needs of the other sides.
There is no doubt about that. Sinn Féin needs the UUP and the UUP needs Sinn Féin. All parties must work together. I have talked to many interested parties in recent days and I detect that more confidence and trust is building up. There is even more confidence now than there was three months ago. Although the parties have not met formally, the signals are better than they have been in the past, notwithstanding that they have been through elections. Any positive sign from any side helps build confidence. I hope that will happen through the marching season.
We hear much about the parades where there is no formal local contact. However, we should give credit to the other thousands of parades which take place. We will always hear about the Garvaghy Road parade but the better part of the 40 parades in Portadown this year have taken place and they went off well.
It must be the fittest political organisation in the world.
I hope there will be more co-operation. People are determined to find a resolution to these problems and to work together.
Deputies have been constructive on these issues. Everybody must give a little. Solutions will be based on dialogue, accommodation, mutual trust and respect and with such an approach everything is possible. The tension between the sides is not as bad as it seems sometimes.
The Taoiseach has said that Sinn Féin and the IRA are two sides of the same coin. How realistic is it to expect Unionists to vote Sinn Féin members on to an executive which will rule over Northern Ireland if the IRA has not yet said that its war is over and it retains its arsenal of offensive weapons?
What is the Taoiseach's opinion on the realism of that proposition?
I am engaged with all sides in trying to implement the British-Irish Agreement and build trust and confidence with the Prime Minister, Mr. Tony Blair, so that people can be satisfied that they can implement that Agreement. It would be easier if everyone would do all the things we would like. I cannot force the Provisional IRA to do what we want. I cannot force the Orange Order, who want to walk through a 99 per cent nationalist area, not to do so. I cannot force the loyalist paramilitaries to do anything. All we can do is try, on the basis of mutual trust, dialogue and accommodation, to bring people to a position where we can move everything on. We are managing to do that successfully. Unionists and loyalists are not quite forcing this in the same way as the Deputy Bruton's tone suggests he is doing. They know it is difficult for people. Logic does not always prevail. If it did we could move on very quickly. In a normal society where people take a normal point of view the problems of this weekend could be fixed in half an hour. However, that is not the way things are. The situation is complex. Trying to get a resolution is a painstakingly slow process, but it is worth doing if it prevents people from being killed or injured. I appreciate that the Deputy has done this in the past, and that is what we have to do now. It is not always logical.
Will the Taoiseach agree that it is very important that this matter be pushed and that there is a bottom line for democrats? Will he agree also that it would solve the problem if the IRA were to say, as the IRA, what their commander in the Maze said in an interview with the Financial Times, namely, that if the institutions begin to function normally decommissioning will take place? Would it not be helpful if Sinn Féin, who on other matters are clearly able to gain some attention because of their links with the IRA, were to formally and publicly ask the IRA to do that?
The answer is that it would, but that might not be achievable.
Why is it not achievable?
The Deputy would have to ask the IRA. Sinn Féin can ask. Whether it is achievable is another matter.
What was the purpose of the Taoiseach's meeting with Sinn Féin last evening other than to talk to them about, among other things, what they might say to the IRA at this stage? Is it not the case that every time there is an advance the republican movement moves the goalposts? First they say there might be progress if there were talks. There were talks. Then they say that if they are allowed onto the Executive there will be progress. Always the posts are moved further away. Concessions are being made by others and they seem reluctant to make this decisive move and say that the war is over. Why can they not do that?
We discussed many things last night which I will go through. Among them was the likelihood of moving on in relation to decommissioning and the war being over. I asked Mr. Gerry Adams whether he would participate in trying to make progress in relation to the marches. Unfortunately, although he is prepared to go anywhere in Northern Ireland to meet the Orange Order or any other elected representatives, the Orange Order will not engage in any discussion whatsoever with residents' groups, Sinn Féin, the Alliance Party or any other nominees on this matter. Any attempt to put the blame on one side would lead to an unbalanced debate.
Last night I tried to get Sinn Féin to see that the nominations are not lopsided, even though they feel they are, that the criminal justice system review is useful, even though Sinn Féin had no input into it, and that they should have confidence in the five or six other views on the Agreement in respect of which they had no input. There is a long agenda. I do not like to comment on anything the IRA say, but what Mr. Wilson said as one of their senior officers was helpful, and it was done internationally in order to be seen in the international arena. In terms of moving the IRA any further than having totally stopped militant activities, it seems that until we see some action on other fronts it is unlikely there will be another statement from them. I will continue to push for it and to raise it whenever I can. That is just one of the many things I discussed with Sinn Féin.
My question refers to Question No. 9 on the North-South Ministerial Council which will not come into operation if we do not get the kind of initiative from Sinn Féin to which the Opposition leaders have been referring and with which the Taoiseach has agreed. In his reply the Taoiseach said he would be accompanied by the appropriate Minister. However, the Agreement specifies that on the Northern side the first Minister, the Deputy first Minister and whoever else is necessary would be part of a ministerial North-South council. It would be normal to have two permanent Ministers from the South plus the Minister for Agriculture and Food or the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. Do I take it from the Taoiseach's reply that it will be just the Taoiseach and a line Minister relative to the agenda under discussion, or will the Tánaiste be there ex officio or the Minister for Foreign Affairs? The Taoiseach's reply was not clear.
On the Deputy's first comment, I do not want to mislead the House, but I would not be too pessimistic about progress on these matters. Loyalists, Unionists, Nationalists and republicans are more pragmatic than we give them credit for. I believe they are looking at how progress can be made. I hope that is the case. The more people can do to make that easier the better. We have to continue to work on that. It is envisaged that I and the Minister for Foreign Affairs will be the two permanent Ministers. It is possible that there could be four or five people involved on the Northern side because of the make up of that side. If that is the case we will certainly have a consistent team. One of the people involved would be from among our partners in Government. The Minister of State, Deputy Liz O'Donnell attends all meetings and delegations, so either she or the Tánaiste will be part of the Ministerial Council. Because of the composition on the Northern side there will be bigger rather than smaller groups.
On the question of the war being over, will the Taoiseach agree with Deputy Bruton that there is a bottom line for democrats?
Will he agree there is a need to acknowledge that Sinn Féin faces difficulties with the splintering of various forces and that it may not have the same control it had in the past in certain areas? Will he agree also that there is a necessity to continue to pressure Sinn Féin to recognise that trust can only be built by itself in Northern Ireland, that there is little we can do here in relation to that and it is up to them to take the steps to persuade the IRA — to put it at its most benign — to make a gesture which would build the confidence of the Unionist community which has been at the receiving end of most of the IRA violence of the past 30 years?
That is true. However, it would have been easy for Sinn Féin to go one way politically and leave others behind but that would not have been much good to them or to others. In regard to these groups — and we have heard different figures as regards their size from various security elements both here and in other jurisdictions — I understand that since the late 1980s Sinn Féin has been trying to move those people towards the political system. Some of those may have drifted into the Continuity IRA, the 32 county sovereignty committee and so on but the best that can happen is that these people will be encouraged to move away from these organisations and into democratic politics. I understand that is what Sinn Féin is trying to do and at this stage it seems to be successful.
Proinsias De Rossa rose.
I ask the Deputy to be brief because we must reach other questions.
I agree that Sinn Féin can only go a certain distance. I am simply saying that as democrats we have to maintain the pressure. Like the Taoiseach, I do not necessarily regard this weekend as the doom laden situation being presented in some quarters and that the position in Northern Ireland has been transformed beyond recognition. I disagree, however, in relation to Sinn Féin's activities in recent years. Sinn Féin has moved its supporters away from the notion of military activity, which is welcome, but towards street activity by deliberately fomenting opposition to marches. They are now recognising that that is counterproductive and are seeking to end it. That will be difficult but it must be done.
Deputy Bruton asked me earlier if I raised the issue of their members or associates being involved in street activities. As I have continually said in this House in respect of targeting, punishment beatings or any other type of street activity, they foment the same type of bitterness and hatred. I was assured last night that during the marching season Sinn Féin will attempt to keep people out of these activities. That would be their stated position. I know from security reports that Sinn Féin actively did that last week when their elected members went on the streets to encourage people to go home. I know that was picked up by the British Government also.