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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Dec 1998

Vol. 498 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 16, Supplementary Estimates [Votes 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32, 34, 35 and 42]; No. 17, motion re. Standing Order 107; No. 5 — Scientific and Technological Education (Investment) Fund (Amendment) Bill, 1998, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; No. 6, Comptroller and Auditor General and Committees of Houses of the Oireachtas (Special Provisions) Bill, 1998, Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that, (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m. (2) No. 16, Supplementary Estimates [Votes 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 32, 34, 35 and 42] shall be moved together and shall be decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demand thereon shall be taken forthwith; (3) No. 17 shall be decided without debate; (4) the Second Stage of No. 5 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion by 6.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; (5) the Second and Remaining Stages of No. 6 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply — (i) the proceedings on the Second Stage, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 9.30 p.m. tonight and the contributions shall be as follows: (a) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; (b) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (c) Members may share time; and (d) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and, (ii) the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments to the Bill, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are five proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with item No. 16 agreed?

Mr. Quinn

No. At the weekend a serious discrepancy emerged between figures provided by different agencies of the State in respect of the amount of money which will be on balance at the end of the year. We are being asked to take without debate and with reference to one vote a number of Estimates, many of which could deal with additional moneys that may be required. Before we agree to dispose of that item without a debate, we would like the Minister for Finance to inform the House if he has resolved the serious discrepancy of £1 billion between figures released by Dr. Michael Somers and those referred to in the Department's rebuttal press release on Friday.

Proinsias De Rossa

I wish to indicate my serious concern about the row that has erupted between the NTMA and the Department of Finance. Will the Minister for Finance take the opportunity to address those issues in the House?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the Tánaiste indicate if a supplementary budget will be introduced in the near future in view of the extra moneys which have been made available?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That question is not relevant to the debate on item No. 16.

The Tánaiste

As the Deputies are aware, these Estimates have been debated and returned by various committees. With regard to the matters raised by the Deputies, the Minister for Finance has made his position clear. He will be in the House later to take a Bill on financial matters and I am sure he will take that opportunity to report on his meeting today with Mr. Somers. I understand this matter may also be raised on the Adjournment this evening. It would be more appropriate to deal with it at 6.30 p.m. when the Minister for Finance enters the House. However, the Minister has made his position clear and he stands over the figures.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Which figures?

Mr. Quinn

Is the Tánaiste indicating that the Minister for Finance will be present for the debate on the Bill later today?

The Tánaiste

Yes.

Mr. Quinn

Is she offering to amend the Order of Business to allow the Minister to address a matter which bears no relation to the subject matter of the legislation in question? The Tánaiste retains the power to alter the Order of Business. In that context, will she make available a period of 15 to 30 minutes to enable the Minister for Finance to clarify why a serious discrepancy has emerged between figures released by these two agencies of State?

Proinsias De Rossa

I am sure the Tánaiste will accept we are facing a serious situation because the agency with responsibility for managing the State's national debt is at odds with the Department of Finance. There is a difference in policy between the NTMA and the Department and there is also a difference between the figures supplied to the House by the Minister and those released by the NTMA as the actual amount of revenue available to the Government in the coming year. Does the Tánaiste agree the Minister for Finance should come before the House to make a statement and respond to questions? An Adjournment debate is not an adequate way to deal with this serious matter.

The Tánaiste

As already stated, with the exception of the additional £75 million, the existence of which he explained at the weekend, the Minister is standing over the figures. Special notice questions were tabled on this issue but the Ceann Comhairle did not allow them. The Minister for Finance is due to appear before the House at 6.30 p.m. and it is not beyond the ingenuity of Deputies to raise this issue at that time.

Proinsias De Rossa

We will not have an opportunity to do so if the Leas-Cheann Comhairle is in the Chair.

The Tánaiste

If that is the case, there can be an Adjournment debate on the matter or we could make an arrangement through the Whips to debate the matter at a later date. The Minister was scheduled to meet Dr. Somers today to discuss these matters and I have no information on the outcome of that meeting. The Minister for Finance is reasonable and I am sure he would be open to dealing with this matter in the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this issue. I will now put the question.

Mr. Noonan

It would not be satisfactory to hear only one side of the story in respect of this issue, but I accept we are aware of the respective positions of the Minister and Dr. Somers. There is a meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance and Public Service tomorrow. I ask the Tánaiste to urge the Minister for Finance to attend that meeting. I have already requested the chairman of the committee to invite Dr. Somers and the Minister to attend to see if they can reconcile the figures.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Noonan stated at the weekend that he intended to table an emergency motion at the committee with a view to its meeting to discuss this matter. I will discuss the Deputy's proposal with the Minister for Finance after the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

I cannot accept the Tánaiste's offer.

She has already signalled that she is aware of this issue and she could have made time available to debate it today. I am not prepared to accept the proposal for item No. 16.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question is:

"That the proposal for dealing with item No. 16 be agreed."

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 57.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Barrett.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 17 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 6 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Tánaiste facilitate a debate on the handling of the relationship between the Government and the board of Tallaght Hospital? The selective leaking of the report on the functioning of the hospital by the Minister has done great damage to relationships between the hospital and the Government and perhaps a clearing of the air would be helpful. Would the Tánaiste facilitate that?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

While it is not appropriate on the Order of Business I will allow the Tánaiste to reply.

Mr. Quinn

Am I correct in my understanding that a request for Government time to discuss the matter is in order?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No. If that were the case every conceivable question could be discussed on the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

We would never abuse that rule on this side of the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I appreciate that, Deputy Quinn, but the matter is not in order. I will, however, allow the Tánaiste to respond.

Mr. Quinn

I support the Leader of Fine Gael in his request.

Proinsias De Rossa

Given that the Minister for Health has announced his intention to publish the report, may we not ask the Tánaiste if time will be provide to debate the report?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not covered by Standing Order 26.

The Tánaiste

The report has now been published by the Minister and I urge Deputies to read it. Having read the report I can say that it totally vindicates the position adopted by the Minister.

Mrs. Owen

We heard that said about the beef tribunal report.

The Tánaiste

It is not at all like the beef tribunal report. I will quote one sentence from the report.

Mr. Allen

This reminds us of Deputy Albert Reynolds.

Mr. Currie

This is the Order of Business. The Tánaiste wants to have a soundbite.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would prefer if we did not have a debate on the report now. If the Tánaiste continues too long a debate will be precipitated. I ask you not to quote from the report.

The Tánaiste

I will not quote from the report but I urge Deputies to read it. If Deputies, having read the report, wish to have a debate on it I am sure that can be arranged by the Whips, either in this House or in a committee. I strongly urge people to read the report and not comment on what they have not read. The report entirely vindicates the position adopted by the Minister in this matter.

Mr. Shatter

It does not vindicate selective leaking by the Minister.

Mr. Howlin

We should read the report before we have a debate on it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Tánaiste, I would prefer if you did not proceed.

Mr. J. Bruton

I have read the report.

An Tánaiste

I cannot understand how Deputy Bruton can disagree with me if he has read the report.

Mr. J. Bruton

The report indicates that using the existing three hospitals as a basis was not the correct basis for funding a new hospital. The Minister responsible for that is a member of the Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would prefer if we did not go into detail on the matter.

The Tánaiste

The report makes it very clear that no additional funding should be granted or sought until an effective management system is put in place. The report is highly critical throughout of the manner in which this hospital, which is paid for by public money, has been managed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Tánaiste, we will not have a debate on this matter. Did I understand you to say that it could be agreed between the Whips to hold a debate in the House?

The Tánaiste

I said that if Deputies, having read the report, wish to have a debate either here or in a committee, I have no doubt the Government will facilitate that. I am surprised to hear Deputy Bruton, having read the report, say what he is saying.

Mr. Rabbitte

On a point of order, will the Tánaiste take this opportunity to say that there is nothing in the report to justify——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, I ask you to resume your seat.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Can I ask the Tánaiste what has happened to the legislation she and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Donnell, promised when in Opposition, in relation to banning temporary early release of prisoners? They were joined in chorus by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who was then the Fianna Fáil spokesman on Justice. What is being done in relation to joy riding? Three of the five stolen car fatalities in Cork in the past year involved offenders on temporary early release.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter will be raised on the Adjournment tonight.

Mrs. Owen

The matter was raised when I was Minister for Justice.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter has been raised by a colleague of yours, Deputy. In fairness to your colleague, the matter should be left until the Adjournment.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Does the Tánaiste realise that a young mother is dead and a husband is left without a wife because someone on temporary early release jumped bail? What legislative proposals will be taken by the Government to address this matter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on it now. I call Deputy Upton.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Will the Tánaiste reply to my question, given that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not present?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will not allow the Tánaiste to reply as this matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): She promised legislation to deal with this matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, please resume your seat.

Mr. Shatter

People are losing their lives. They are being mowed down by offenders on temporary release.

Mrs. Owen

Three of the five stolen car fatalities in Cork this year involved such offenders. When the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, was in Opposition she could not be kept quiet about this matter.

Dr. Upton

On promised legislation, when will the illegal immigrants trafficking and employment Bill be published? Will it contain a provision to allow asylum seekers to work, which would accord with the frequently expressed wishes of the Tánaiste's ministerial colleague, Deputy O'Donnell?

The Tánaiste

The illegal trafficking of immigrants Bill will be published during the recess. The employment issues related to that matter will be dealt with in a Bill on work permits and related matters I will bring forward early next year.

Mr. Boylan

In view of the amount of dumping of foreign products on the Irish market, is it the Government's intention to introduce legislation to amend the labelling laws?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business. I call Deputy Seán Ryan.

Mr. Boylan

It is appropriate to the Order of Business. It is extremely important such legislation should be introduced because many people are being pushed out of the market as a result of the dumping of foreign products on the Irish market.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. That matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Boylan

The Tánaiste, when in Opposition, raised this matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is on its feet and I called Deputy Seán Ryan.

Mr. Boylan

There is no reply from the Tánaiste.

Mr. S. Ryan

Will the Tánaiste outline the position on legislation on a national minimum wage, given that an employer in Leinster House is paying his employees £3.80 an hour? Will she accept that is an utter disgrace? Will she do something to address that because employers in this House should lead by example?

The Tánaiste

Unlike previous Governments, with which the Deputy was associated, this Government will introduce legislation to provide for a minimum wage. It is being drafted and it will be published before next summer.

Mr. S. Ryan

What will the Tánaiste do address the matter of an employer in this House who pays his employees £3.80 an hour? It is a disgrace that an employer in this House should pay his employees that rate of pay when employers here should lead by example.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. The Chair is on his feet. I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. S. Ryan

It is an utter disgrace that the catering staff of this House are being paid £3.80 an hour.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should show respect for the Chair. If he does not do so, I will ask him to leave.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I raised the matter of promised legislation on the protection of UN personnel serving abroad on a number of occasions this session. The House will be aware we have the largest battalion serving for the longest period with UNIFIL, but the UN Convention cannot come into effect until 22 countries have signed up to it. When will that legislation be brought before the House?

The Tánaiste

I do not know, but I will come back to the Deputy on that.

Mrs. Owen

The medical practitioners (amendment) Bill is promised legislation from the Department of Health and Children. In view of the very disturbing information in the newspapers today about nine women who had hysterectomies which do not appear to have been necessary and that a doctor was hired in a Cork hospital who had been convicted of child pornography, that Bill is urgently required to ensure that such issues do not arise again.

The Tánaiste

I share the Deputy's concern. This matter will be debated on the Adjournment this evening. The legislation to which the Deputy referred will be published towards the middle of next year.

Mr. Howlin

I raised the abolition of the ground rents Bill on a previous occasion on the Order of Business. Is that promised Bill still Government policy and when will it be published?

Mr. Quinn

The Tánaiste should be brave.

The Tánaiste

It is a commitment in the Programme for Government, but as all Deputies know there are major constitutional issues in this area.

Mr. Howlin

Is it still Government policy to produce that Bill? When will it be produced or will it be removed from the list of promised legislation?

Dr. Woods

It is on the list.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste answered Deputy Howlin's question.

Mr. Quinn

She did not.

Mr. Howlin

Will the Bill be introduced?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

She answered the question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

I asked when will the Bill be published.

The Tánaiste

We cannot advance legislation that is unconstitutional.

Mr. Howlin

Will the Bill be removed from the list?

The Tánaiste

If the constitutional issues can be resolved, I have no doubt we will see the legislation.

Mr. Sargent

Is the delay besetting the introduction of the trust Bill also besetting the introduction of the fundraising for charitable and other purposes Bill? Given the common ground covered by the two Bills, will the Tánaiste accept the suggestion that the two Bills should be amalgamated into a consolidated charities Bill and, if so, when will such legislation be introduced?

The Tánaiste

I share the Deputy's concern on that. Work is under way in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on that, but I cannot say when it will see the light of day. I do not have a date as to when it will be introduced.

Mr. Shatter

Has the Government made a decision, and will there be an announcement in the House, on the holding of an independent investigation into the circumstances in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in the North Eastern Health Board area which resulted in a number of women having a caesarean hysterectomy in circumstances which were inappropriate?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter will be raised on the Adjournment Debate this evening. In fairness to the Deputy's party colleague who has sought to raise this matter on the Adjournment, I ask him not to pursue a question that is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Shatter

I hope the Government has made a decision that there should be an independent investigation and that it will ensure proper services will be put in place for the women affected.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter, that matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business, there are other ways to raise it.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Tánaiste indicate if the Government met today? If so, among the other matters with which it would have dealt, did it clear the heads of a Bill to establish a human rights commission to which we are committed under the British-Irish Agreement? When will the heads of such a Bill or draft legislation be circulated to the relevant committee of this House, as promised by the Taoiseach?

The Tánaiste

The Government did not meet today, it met yesterday. The heads of that Bill have not come before the Government. It will be early next year before they are ready.

Mr. Quinn

Is there a difficulty in drafting this legislation? Can the Tánaiste give a precise timetable as to when it will be ready because we are in arrears on the timetable the Government set for dealing with this legislation?

The Tánaiste

As far as I am aware, there is no difficulty. The delay is due to pressure of work in the parliamentary draftsman's office. I understand it will be ready very early in the new year.

Mr. Quinn

In those circumstances will the Government accept the Bill we prepared?

Mr. Power

This being the season of goodwill, it is appropriate to congratulate Deputy Quinn and Princess De Rossa on their engagement and to ask them if they could confirm that Tomás Mac Giolla will give away the bride?

Mr. M. Higgins

It was promised that an inventory of architecture Bill would be published before the end of the summer. I understood it was to run in parallel with a Bill from the Department of the Environment and Local Government. That Department published legislation this week, but there is no indication as to when the inventory of architecture Bill will be published. Is that Bill being prepared, will it be published and will it be debated at the same time as the Bill from the Department of the Environment and Local Government?

The Tánaiste

If Deputy Quinn and Deputy De Rossa referred their proposed merger to me under the mergers and monopolies legislation, I would have had to refer it to the Competition Authority——

Mr. Howlin

It will be too much competition for the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

——because it is awful to see this competition diminishing. I wish them well.

Mr. Durkan

Is there another wedding in the offing?

The Tánaiste

That Bill was cleared yesterday by the Government.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Given that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform told me on 25 November that to that date there were 28 murders and seven manslaughters and that we wake up every second morning to hear of another murder — there have been seven murders over the past two weeks and people are living in genuine fear of stabbings and beatings and shootings——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question on legislation?

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): In view of the spiralling increase in crimes of violence, what is the position on the criminal justice, Garda SMI Bill which proposes far reaching restructuring of the Garda Síochána from the point of view of its efficiency and effectiveness?

The Tánaiste

I understand the heads of that Bill will be before the Government before the summer of next year.

Mr. Allen

That will be too late for the victims.

Mrs. Owen

There is a murder every second day.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Shortall.

Mr. Howlin

One would have thought Deputy Owen was committing the murders a couple of years ago.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Howlin to allow Deputy Shortall to speak on the Order of Business.

Ms Shortall

What is the position on the children juvenile justice Bill which has been waiting 20 months for Committee Stage? The Taoiseach made a promise some time ago that the amendments from the Department of Health and Children would be ready by the end of November. Are they and the amendments from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform ready and when will Committee Stage be taken?

The Tánaiste

I am not sure whether the amendments are finalised in both Departments. One Department may have finalised its amendments, but I will revert to the Deputy later.

Mr. Quinn

Have they come before the Government?

Ms McManus

The Mental Health (Amendment) Bill is promised for early 1999. Will that timeframe be adhered to?

The Tánaiste

Yes. It will be taken at the end of February.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Tánaiste is rightly concerned about competition because it is obvious that she, Fianna Fáil and most of the Opposition parties are selling the same product.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to ask something appropriate on the Order of Business.

Mrs. O'Rourke

The Deputy is a sole trader.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Higgins to speak on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins (Dublin West)

They are all singing from the same hymn sheet. I ask the Tánaiste to clarify if it is a Government decision to dump out many unfortunate asylum seekers over Christmas before their legal aid comes through.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Barr