Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 Feb 1999

Vol. 500 No. 1

Order of Business (Resumed).

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 25, Statements on Criminal Justice Policy; No. 4, Immigration Bill, 1999, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is also proposed that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders the proceedings on No. 25, if not previously concluded, shall conclude within 55 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: statements should be confined to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, who shall be called upon in that order and shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, provided their spokespersons may share time with other Members.

Following the statements, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform shall take questions which, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to conclusion after 25 minutes. Private Members' Business shall be No. 68 – Motion re. the EU Commissioner.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 25 agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

Before agreeing to it, is it possible for the Taoiseach to circulate to Members the legal advice the Government has got that the Good Friday prison release arrangements cannot be construed as applying to those convicted as a result of the Adare bank robbery? It is important that legal advice should be available to the House before this debate so that there are no arguments about legality.

The Taoiseach

That advice was given by the Attorney General and has been discussed many times. Some people stated they might challenge this in the courts. The Attorney General gave me his entire case, but I could not agree to circulate his advice without consulting him.

Mr. J. Bruton

I appreciate that there are very few precedents for the Government's legal advice being circulated. Will the Taoiseach at least make available the gist of the legal analysis upon which he has stated the release scheme does not apply to these people?

The Taoiseach

The Minister will answer questions on this and the gist will be given in those answers .

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 25 agreed to? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

On the Order of Business, I ask the Taoiseach if the Government will agree to a debate on the proposals for Agenda 2000, particularly on agriculture, before the proposals are agreed.

The Taoiseach

If the Whips can agree a time for a debate, I would not have a problem with that. During the week beginning February 22 there will be a five day session of Agriculture Council of Ministers.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach agree to a debate being held before that?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. Quinn

Given that we are just one month from the 10 March deadline for the devolution of powers in Northern Ireland and the continuing impasse there, is the Government prepared to make time available to debate the present situa tion in Northern Ireland, particularly in light of the opinion poll published in today's newspapers which indicates widespread support in both communities for movement on the issue of decommissioning and for a breaking of the impasse?

The Taoiseach

We debate Northern Ireland at some length every week. If I thought it would be useful, I would talk to the party leaders. It is my opinion, however, that this is not the best time for a debate.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The Social Welfare Bill was circulated yesterday. When is it proposed to take the Bill? The explanatory memorandum circulated with the Bill omitted the proposed empowerment of social welfare inspectors to stop cars and question their occupants. Was this a deliberate omission by the Government?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate the content of the Bill.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

The explanatory memorandum should cover this area.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate on the Order of Business. The Deputy can raise the issue by way of a question.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

When will this and other provisions be debated? I ask the Taoiseach to indicate if he wants a full debate on that draconian element of it.

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be taken on 23 February.

Mr. Quinn

Last week I asked what progress had been made on the legislation for a human rights commission. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been able to move with extraordinary alacrity to produce an alien immigration Bill which will be debated this afternoon. Can the Taoiseach tell me if the Government has disposed of the human rights legislation?

The Taoiseach

It was stated last week that the Government was due to discuss this today. It has done so and the heads of the Bill will go to the committees as previously agreed.

Mr. Quinn

When will that happen?

The Taoiseach

That will happen as soon as possible. The heads were cleared this morning so that the committees can discuss it.

Mr. Quinn

That is a matter for the Government to initiate, not the committees.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this now.

The Taoiseach

From my point of view, I want to get on with this Bill.

Mr. Quinn

Will the Government ensure that the chairpersons of the two relevant committees are requested to prioritise the legislation and that they will deal with it immediately?

The Taoiseach

I understand they certainly will be.

Mr. Sargent

Will the Social Welfare Bill be taken by the Minister or a civil servant—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not in order.

Mr. Sargent

—in view of the Minister's policy of having civil servants comment on that Bill? Is the Comhairle Bill on the National Social Services Board due for publication given that drafting was authorised last month? The Fundraising for Charitable and Other Purposes Bill, which states that other priorities are being attended to by the Department—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is appropriate to ask a question about legislation.

Mr. Sargent

This is legislation. Has the Fundraising for Charitable and Other Purposes Bill become a priority, given replies I have received that it is a priority? Has that changed the expected date of publication and what is the date?

The Taoiseach

The Comhairle Bill, which deals with the establishment of the organisation to replace the National Social Services Board and the disability support service in the National Rehabilitation Board, will be dealt with early in this session. The other legislation is still a priority though it is not clear how it is to be handled. It will be dealt with by the Minister shortly.

Mr. G. Mitchell

In view of the circulation of the Bill on immigrants and the lack of provisions to deal with racism and xenophobia, when is it intended that the human rights debate adjourned some months ago will resume? These are issues that the House is waiting to address.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. G. Mitchell

Can we at least have the debate in tandem with the Bill?

Mr. Howlin

Has the Government made a decision today to introduce legislation to amend the regional structures, and when will such legislation be circulated?

The Taoiseach

The Government has made decisions on the regional structures, as I stated. That requires an amendment of the 1991 Act and an order. The Department will make an announcement later today.

Mr. Howlin

Is the legislation to give new functionality–

Mr. Dempsey

It is an order.

Mr. Howlin

It is an order, not new legislation. So there will not be strengthened regional government based on the existing legislation?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It will be an amendment of the 1991 Act. I gave the relevant section of that Act. It will be a strengthening of the regional structure.

Mr. Howlin

By order.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will that be done by principal legislation here in the House?

The Taoiseach

By ministerial order.

Mr. J. Bruton

Why not debate this in the House? If the country is to be divided up, surely the House should have a say.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not appropriate on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Taoiseach afraid to have Deputies vote if they are from counties like Wexford, Tipperary and Carlow, which have lower incomes?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton should resume his seat. He is out of order.

Mr. J. Bruton

I know I am, but on a point of order I ask the Chair, as guardian of the House, to ensure that this legislation is debated in the House and that the country is not divided up by stealth.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

This is ridiculous.

Proinsias De Rossa

The Taoiseach has made a statement to the House that I believe is misleading–

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Rabbitte

Listen to the point first.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is a point of order. I am asking a question about what I believe was a misleading statement from the Taoiseach.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Ms McManus

It is important that the Chair address the issue of the Taoiseach's statement. It is not clear what is being proposed, and if he is saying that a ministerial order only is to be used, then that has to be clarified, and I ask the Chair to do so.

The Minister for Public Enterprise said two weeks ago that legal representation for rape victims would be dealt with by last week's Cabinet meeting.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is not in order.

Ms McManus

It is promised legislation and I am entitled to raise it. The Taoiseach said it would be dealt with at today's Cabinet meeting. Has he delivered on that promise?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked for clarification of what I said. The current regions were set up under the 1991 Act and any amended regions would be set up by an amendment to the 1991 Act.

Mr. Howlin

Without strengthening local government.

Mr. Yates

It is screwing the south-east.

The Taoiseach

Wait for the details. Regarding the second matter, the Government has decided to prepare legislation on a priority basis to establish a sex offenders register. The Minister will announce details of this in due course.

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order, is it not the case that the privileges of the Oireachtas require that legislation passed here can only be amended here? It is not open to the Executive – to any Minister with any legislation – to amend legislation. The only bodies that can amend legislation are the Dáil and the Seanad. The Taoiseach's proposal to amend the 1991 Act by ministerial order is ultra vires and impossible to do. I ask the Taoiseach to amend his statement to indicate the true legal position.

The Taoiseach

It will be done by order. As Deputy Bruton should know after 30 years in this House, orders are laid before the House.

Mr. J. Bruton

One cannot amend principal legislation by order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on promised legislation.

Mr. J. Bruton

There have been many court decisions on this. It is well known–

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this issue. The making of a ministerial order can be debated in Private Members' time.

Mr. J. Bruton

Any lawyer worth his fee could tell you.

Proinsias De Rossa

Will the Taoiseach withdraw the statement he made that he intends to amend the 1991 Act?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy De Rossa should resume his seat. We cannot have a debate on this matter.

Proinsias De Rossa

What the Government is doing is pure camouflage.

Mr. Howlin

It cannot be done.

Mr. Gilmore

I raised this matter with the Taoiseach last week and he said it would be done by way of regulation. He now says he proposes to have the 1991 Act amended. How does the Taoiseach propose to amend primary legislation without bringing a Bill before the House?

The Taoiseach

I have stated for several weeks, and it has also been said during Question Time for several weeks, that the new regional structures will be brought in by amending the 1991 Act.

Mr. Howlin

Without amending legislation.

The Taoiseach

If that could be done by amendment to the Act it would require legislation, or it could be done by ministerial order.

Mr. J. Bruton

No. That cannot be done. Are there any lawyers in the Government?

The Taoiseach

Deputies should wait for the Minister to announce his proposals and lay them before the House.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Has the Government agreed to proposals to bring forward legislation relating to telecommunications masts and Garda stations?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no promised legislation.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Is it proposed that ministerial Mercedes are liable to be stopped by social welfare inspectors or will it only be vans which look down at heel?

Dr. Woods

Ministers do not get the dole.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Where is the Minister? I asked a question about proposed legislation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No legislation is promised.

Mr. Stagg

How do you know?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Taoiseach did not answer.

The Taoiseach

There is legislation on the telecommunications infrastructure, which we hope to publish this month.

Mr. Stagg

There was promised legislation – wrong again.

Mr. Finucane

Apologise to the House.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Homer nodded.

Ms McManus

The Taoiseach must not have eaten his Weetabix this morning. May I have a reply appropriate to my question? I asked about legal representation for rape victims but his reply had no connection with that matter. Did the Cabinet, as the Taoiseach promised it would, deal with the provision of legal representation to rape victims in certain limited circumstances?

The Taoiseach

When I was endeavouring to answer the Deputy her new colleagues were interrupting me – perhaps they had too much Weetabix. The legislation on this matter will contain provisions for separate legal representation for complainants in rape and sexual assault cases during applications to hear evidence and to cross-examine on a complainant's past sexual history.

Mr. Rabbitte

A constituent of mine, the Tánaiste, is in Tasmania. Will the Taoiseach assure the House it is his intention that she will return?

The Taoiseach

I understand the Deputy was in the same country last week.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is why I want to know about her return.