The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 1 – Education (Welfare) Bill, 1999 [Seanad] – Second Stage. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that in the event of the motion for the by-election for Dublin South-Central being moved, it shall be taken without debate. Private Members' business shall be No. 72 – Motion re: Local Authority Housing.
Order of Business.
There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal in the event of the motion for the by-election for Dublin South-Central being moved agreed to? Agreed.
I want to raise two issues with the Taoiseach. The Chair might allow me to raise one issue and get some response to it from the Taoiseach and then allow me to raise a second issue with him.
Provided they are appropriate to the Order of Business.
What contingency plans has the Government put in place in the event of a nurses' strike? Will the Taoiseach instruct the Minister for Health and Children to stop using a megaphone and to stop lecturing the nurses?
Deputy Owen, that is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
It is appropriate, given that there could be a strike in the next two weeks.
Deputy Owen, you will have to find another way to raise the matter.
Perhaps the Taoiseach at least would be able to answer whether the Government intends to give time in the Dáil to discuss this matter.
Deputy Owen, that is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I realise that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle seemed to be prepared to stop us raising this matter.
As the Deputy knows, a question was submitted to the Ceann Comhairle and he ruled it out of order.
The reality is that the Taoiseach has to tell us what the Government will do in the event of a nurses' strike which would put patients' lives at risk.
I do not mean to stop the Deputy raising any issue that is appropriate to the Order of Business.
Will the Taoiseach instruct the Minister for Health and Children to engage in meaningful consultation with the nurses now that he has an opportunity to do so within the next two weeks?
Deputy Owen, I ask you to give way to Deputy Quinn.
The point is in order, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
I call Deputy Quinn.
I ask the Taoiseach if the Government intends—
Will the Taoiseach—
Deputy Quinn.
I ask the Taoiseach, in respect of legislative measures, if the Government is drafting emergency legislation to ensure the continuation of essential medical services in the light of the threatened strike which is now two weeks away?
No such legislation is promised. Deputy Owen, on another issue.
I would like to complete that. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment—
He simply cannot answer that question.
Is such legislation promised?
Yes, there is a nursing Bill.
We are facing an all out strike in the health services. It is appropriate to ask the Taoiseach if there are legislative—
Deputy Owen, Deputy Quinn is on his feet.
On a point of order, on the Order Paper, or on the Government's list of promised legislation, a nurses Bill is promised. In the context of the question raised, is the Government going to take steps to ensure that when that Bill comes before the House we still have nurses?
Deputy Shatter knows it is not appropriate to ask a question about the contents of a Bill.
I am entitled to raise current issues on the Order of Business.
No, you are not, Deputy Shatter. I refer you to Standing Order 26 in the Standing Orders agreed by this House. Deputy Shatter, I ask you to allow the Taoiseach to speak.
The nurses Bill is due next summer.
Deputy Owen on another matter.
May I ask the Taoiseach about order in the House? Will he allow Government time next week to discuss the serious issue of the threatened nurses strike and to outline in this House the Government's contingency plans?
It is not appropriate on the Order of Business.
It is appropriate to ask about time to debate an issue, and if the Taoiseach would agree-—
If that were the case, Deputy, Members could ask about any issue.
We will raise this every day. It is an important issue. Patients are getting letters informing them their operations—
Deputy Owen, I ask you to resume your seat.
I know your concern as a doctor, a Leas Cheann-Comhairle.
Of course I am concerned. Everybody is concerned but there is an appropriate way to raise the matter in the House. It was discussed in a priority question last Thursday. Has Deputy Quinn another issue to raise?
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I know you are charged with administering the rules of the House, and you do it with a rigour we respect, but matters have changed since that special notice question was asked. I am trying to find a way within Standing Orders – please bear with me, Sir – and the rules which you have to administer to enable the Taoiseach to issue a statement on whether there are legislative proposals to deal with the provision of emergency health services given that we appear, at this stage, to be drifting towards a strike in our hospitals. I submit, with respect Sir, that is a legitimate question. The Taoiseach did not have a chance to answer it, and perhaps you might allow him do so.
The Taoiseach answered in regard to the nurses legislation.
In reply to Deputy Quinn, there is no emergency legislation. There is a threatened industrial dispute by nurses. Discussions are going ahead between the Department and the employers' body regarding the health services and the nurses, and the level of cover in the hospitals is being debated. If, next week, the Whips believe it would be a good time to discuss this issue, based on the situation then, the matter can be discussed.
I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing my colleague, Deputy Timmins, to raise a matter on the Adjournment tonight about an unanswered parliamentary question. As the Taoiseach will not take that debate tonight, will he confirm the Minister of State, Deputy Cullen, or his private office sent him information—
Deputy Owen, you know the matter is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
Will he tell us exactly which of his political advisers got this information?
Deputy Timmins will have an opportunity to raise the matter tonight.
The Taoiseach is answerable to the House for the actions of his political advisers.
In fairness to Deputy Timmins, it is not reasonable to raise the matter at this point.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, he is answerable to this House. These political advisers are paid for by the taxpayers, and one of these political advisers leaked this information without giving it to the Dáil—
Deputy Owen, the matter has been allowed on the Adjournment, and it will be discussed then. Deputy Owen, you submitted a private notice question to the Ceann Comhairle who ruled it out of order, so that is the end of the matter. Deputy Joe Higgins.
The Taoiseach owes it to the House—
Deputy Owen, I have called Deputy Joe Higgins.
There are two Gerrys and one of them was involved.
It is not Gerry Hickey, so work it out.
Deputy Owen, I ask you to resume your seat because I have ruled the matter out of order. Deputy Owen, I ask you to resume your seat while the Chair is on his feet.
Democracy is at stake.
I have called Deputy Joe Higgins.
A point of order.
A point of order, Deputy Owen.
Is the Taoiseach responsible to this House for the actions of his political advisers?
That is not a point of order. I call Deputy Joe Higgins. Deputy Owen, you have been on your feet for ten minutes.
Does the Chair not accept there has been clear abuse of parliamentary privilege?
I will call Deputy O'Keeffe when his turn comes. I call Deputy Joe Higgins. This matter has already been the subject of correspondence between the Ceann Comhairle and Deputy Timmins. The Ceann Comhairle has written to the Minister for Finance asking him for his account of what happened.
Which of them will come into the House tonight?
Talk about passing the ball from one to the other.
Deputy Owen, when the Chair is speaking, please resume your seat. The matter has already been dealt with by the Ceann Comhairle. If Deputies have a further problem with it, I suggest they go to the Ceann Comhairle's office.
A point of order.
It will be taken on the Adjournment tonight.
It has been the tradition for many years in this House that political heads of Departments do not blame civil servants for their difficulties.
That is not a point of order.
I ask the Taoiseach to exonerate the civil servants whose names have been—
Deputies are being disorderly and are being unfair to Deputy Timmins who will raise the matter on the Adjournment this evening. Deputy Joe Higgins.
(Dublin West): In view of the fact that yesterday 15 building workers were arrested on a peaceful picket on the site of the new Dáil offices, will the Taoiseach consider – or does he have in mind – amendments to the industrial relations Acts so that the Garda will not be cynically used by employers in substitute for meaningful negotiations with workers?
That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
(Dublin West): I would like the Taoiseach to respond because it raises the question of legislation.
Is legislation promised?
(Dublin West): Some 15 workers were arrested yesterday and were being used by an employer.
I am not sure of the site about which the Deputy is talking.
It is not appropriate to the Order of Business, the Deputy should find another way to raise the matter.
(Dublin West): It is the site behind this House.
As the Government appears to have made a unilateral decision today to join Partnership for Peace without meeting the commitment given by the Taoiseach to hold a plebiscite, will it consider allocating Government time to discuss the Bill in my name, item 59 on the Order Paper, before a decision is made on this matter?
It is a matter for the Deputy to take in Private Members' time.
The matter in question—
I indicated on 12 or 19 January in this House that we would bring this issue forward in the second half of the year, and we will do that as soon as time is available.
Deputy Roche is worried.
May I ask the Taoiseach about the Companies (No. 2) Bill, about which I asked last week? When will the next Stage be taken? This is important legislation in the light of the amendment to section 21 of the 1990 Act to allow for, among other things, an inspector's report from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to be referred to a tribunal of inquiry. The original reason given for the delay was that no Minister was available. We are now told there is a drafting problem. A tiny number of amendments are outstanding. Given the urgency of this measure, will the Taoiseach indicate when the Bill will be enacted?
The Companies (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill has completed Committee Stage and is down for Report Stage. As soon as the amendments are ready, Report Stage can be taken.
There are only a few amendments.
There were 40 amendments on Committee Stage, not a few.
I am referring to Report Stage.
Committee Stage has concluded. I am referring to Report Stage. Most of the substantive issues have been dealt with. Committee Stage was concluded before the summer recess. Months have intervened. Given the urgency of this matter, with which all sides of the House agree, surely Report Stage can be taken more speedily.
Sir, how is the Ceann Comhairle going to protect Members when a parliamentary question is abused and an answer is not provided to a Deputy? You are in the place of the Ceann Comhairle on today's Order of Business and are, therefore, responsible for our rights in this House. It is clear that information—
The Deputy is aware this is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I am asking you, Sir, about order in the House and about our rights as Members of the House.
The matter is with the Ceann Comhairle's office, where it will be discussed.
I am raising the question of the rights of Deputies.
This issue has been the subject of detailed correspondence between the Ceann Comhairle and Deputy Timmins and between the Ceann Comhairle and the Minister for Finance. Deputy Owen is also aware that she submitted a private notice question to the Ceann Comhairle. It was disallowed and it is disorderly for the Deputy to continue to pursue the matter when her private notice question was disallowed.
The Chair is protecting the Taoiseach.
A member of the Taoiseach's political staff is being named as the person involved in the matter—
The Deputy should call to the Ceann Comhairle's office and he will deal with the matter. I call Deputy Rabbitte.
—of maligning Deputy John Bruton's name. By his silence, the Taoiseach has confirmed there is a dirty tricks unit in his Department.
Deputy Owen, that is not appropriate. This is the third matter the Deputy has raised that is not appropriate to the Order of Business. The Chair will have to deal appropriately with it. I ask the Deputy to resume her seat.
Will the Taoiseach advise if industrial relations intervention is planned in the nurse's dispute?
I answered that earlier when I said the various matters pertaining to the employers in the health services and the nurses' unions are under discussion between them, including the preparations for the industrial action that is due. No new issue has arisen.
May I say a word in response to Deputy Owen, Sir? I do not wish to put you in a difficult position. I wish to say a brief word to avoid a situation where I do not answer a question she raises.
It is in order.
Thank you. I am satisfied there is no truth in the repeated accusation that information for reply to a parliamentary question was deliberately withheld by anyone in any part of Government Buildings so that it could be released exclusively to anybody.
Of course it was.
The Taoiseach without interruption.
The material was in a draft reply.
There was a dirty tricks campaign to get at Deputy John Bruton.
A Leas Cheann-Comhairle, Deputy Owen, as Deputy Leader of her party, asked for a reply from me to a question she raised. Can I do so without interruption from her party Whip?
It was paid for by taxpayers' money.
We want to hear what the Taoiseach has to say.
I will reply if the Deputy wants me to and if Deputy Barrett does not rattle on. The material was contained in a draft reply. It is of little consequence and incriminates no-one, as has been made clear. All that was involved was the wider dissemination of innocuous information already believed in good faith to be in the public domain. An official in my office, for whom of course I am responsible, provided this information when he was asked a question about a related matter.
Was he a political official or was he from the Taoiseach's private office?
The Taoiseach without interruption.
There was no deliberate or malicious leak from the office. On the contrary, the information that was honestly believed to be on the public record was given to the media in the course of inquiries and nobody from my office contacted anyone from the media with this information.
We know the Taoiseach is able to disguise things through drafting.
I do not believe in blackening anybody and I know Deputy Barrett does not believe what he has said. I will have political rows with Deputy John Bruton and others, but it is not my practice to go about the business of blackening people.
The Taoiseach's Minister of State gave incorrect information.
Deputy Barrett, please.
It is not appropriate for staff in any Government office—
He should resign. Deputy Hogan resigned as Minister of State for less.
The Taoiseach without interruption.
It is not appropriate for staff in any Government office, whether politically appointed or otherwise, to engage in activity that involves third parties that could be reasonably construed as politically partisan and directed against other democratically elected people. I exclude from this category situations where staff members, politically appointed or otherwise, are specifically charged by members of the Government to refute or defend on their behalf accusations made against them when asked to explain to others the background to policy.
In this case it was alleged that somebody knowingly provided information which he understood was not in the public domain. That was not the case. The official involved, who was not familiar with the system of parliamentary questions, thought this parliamentary question was already in the public domain.
Was he a civil servant?
It does not matter what the person was; I am responsible.
(Interruptions).
We are not debating this matter; it is on the Adjournment this evening. I call Deputy Stagg.
On a point of order—
I hope it is a point of order, Deputy Owen, because you have been very disorderly all day.
The Taoiseach has confirmed that a member of the Civil Service was involved in this matter.
That is not a point of order. I call Deputy Stagg.
Was the person involved a political appointee or a civil servant?
Deputy Owen, 20 minutes have already elapsed on the Order of Business.
There is no time limit on the Order of Business.
It is at the discretion of the Ceann Comhairle. Many of my predecessors have ruled that 20 minutes is more than sufficient time. I call Deputy Stagg.
What the Taoiseach said could lead to a strike by civil servants.
Deputy Owen, do you want to leave the House? I am going to have to deal with you appropriately. I call Deputy Stagg.
Under the 1924 Act—
Taoiseach, I would prefer if we did not have any more discussion on this matter.
Regardless of whether the person is a civil servant or employed under a temporary contract, I am responsible to this House under the terms of the 1924 Act. I will, accordingly, take responsibility and have done so.
(Interruptions.)
The Taoiseach has got away with it.
I call Deputy Stagg on something appropriate to the Order of Business.
On a separate matter and on promised legislation, in July 1998 the Minster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform introduced temporary legislation for the control of the importation of firearms into the State. At the time we were promised the legislation would be effective for 12 months. The Taoiseach, however, signed a continuance order last July and we have been promised substantive legislation. Arising from this, it now transpires the IRA has applied to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform for permits to import guns, has received application forms—
That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
It is appropriate. This farcical situation will be finished when we get the substantive legislation we were promised.
The legislation is being prepared and will be introduced during the next session. I know nothing about the allegations the Deputy has made.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I ask you to request the Ceann Comhairle to call a special meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to discuss the very serious issue of the withholding of proper information.
There is ongoing correspondence with the Ceann Comhairle. The Deputy knows how to deal with that matter. I suggest he write to the Ceann Comhairle regarding it.
I am asking that a special meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges be called to discuss this very serious issue.
The Deputy is out of order.
I am quite in order.
Deputy Barrett is not quite in order. The Chair has told the Deputy how to deal with the matter. He should either call or write to the Ceann Comhairle's office.
I am making a request on the record that a special meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges be called to discuss this issue.
An nglacann an Taoiseach leis go bhfuil an-díomá ar an-chuid daoine maidir le seasamh Fhianna Fáil i leith Partnership for Peace mar gur gheall siad reifreann?
I gcomhthéacs aighneas na mbanaltran agus an Roinn Sláinte, an féidir leis an Taoiseach a rá go mbeidh an Health (Amendment) Bill ag teacht roimh dheireadh na bliana. Bhí geallúint againn go mbeadh sé againn roimh an samhradh seo caite. An féidir linn é seo a chreidiúint anois i ngeall ar an moill atá curtha ar an mBille sin go mór mhór agus aighneas na mbanaltran ann faoi láthair?
It is to amend section 59 of the 1970 Act. The heads were approved by the Government some time ago and the draft is with the Department. It will be introduced during this session.