Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 May 2000

Vol. 518 No. 6

Adjournment Debate. - Garda Procedures.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): With your permission, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I would like to share my time with Deputy Belton and Deputy Joe Higgins. Seldom has an event sparked such universal public concern than the manner in which the Garda handled the so-called siege in which John Carthy was shot dead outside his home in Abbeylara, County Longford, three weeks ago.

The key question is, could his killing have been avoided? Could the so-called siege have been brought to a more humane end? Were the tactics and methods employed by the Garda the correct approach in this kind of situation? Let us look at the circumstances. Here we had a 27 year old only son living with his widowed mother and with no criminal record. Apart from a minor scrape with local gardaí his record was blemish free. Here we had somebody who had already received residential psychiatric treatment a short time previously, who was obviously emotionally very upset and who was caught up in a situation which he had not envisaged when he barricaded himself in the house. How a minor domestic situation about which a mother was anxious concerning her son's possession of a shotgun was allowed to escalate to a major siege has to be central to any investigation or inquiry.

Until the full facts emerge as to what exactly happened during the 26 hour siege, the public perception of what happened is coloured and conditioned by newspaper photographs of what occurred – the emergency response unit lurking behind walls wearing bullet proof vests and helmets; up to 60 gardaí armed with HK 33 assault rifles, Israeli Uzi submachine guns and pump action shotguns.

Here was a small country cottage with a lone labourer suffering from depression armed with a double barrelled shotgun, a limited number of cartridges and hopelessly out numbered. There was no hostage involved. There was no risk presented to any member of the public. Until the full facts emerge then the public perception is that the situation was badly handled. There is one overriding public belief and that is that John Carthy should not have died.

A number of questions require answers. How did the gardaí justify the huge Garda presence at Carthy's house since there was not a hostage involved? Who decided, and at what stage, that the heavily armed Garda emergency response unit was required in such numbers? Why was Marie Carthy not allowed into the house to talk with her brother? Is it true that the emergency response unit which was called in had only recently commenced their special training? Did the gardaí attempt to communicate with Michael Finucane, the solicitor John Carthy had indicated he wished to see in his telephone conversation with his friend Kevin Ireland, an hour before he was shot dead? Could the gardaí simply not have left the vicinity of the Carthy home on Wednesday evening after the dispute with Mrs. Carthy and her son occurred and sent for the psychiatrist who had recently treated John Carthy? Have the Garda only got instructions to shoot-to-kill when confronted by a person with a gun or have they the option of wounding the person with a view to disarming him? Are plastic bullets a Garda option in such circumstances?

Was any warning shot fired? How many shots were fired and how many gardaí were on the scene when Mr. Carthy emerged from his house? How many bullet wounds were there in the body? Why was the body of Mr Carthy not left where he died until it was inspected by the State pathologist, Dr. Harbison, instead of being taken to Mullingar? John Carthy had his shotgun confiscated by the Garda some time ago on the grounds that he was not a fit person to hold such a weapon. Is it true that the gun was restored to him on the basis of a report from a psychiatrist?

It will be three weeks tomorrow since John Carthy was killed. The investigation got under way immediately. I cannot understand how and why it has not been concluded. After all, nobody else was involved except John Carthy and the known gardaí at the scene. It should be concluded and it must be published and it must be published in full and not a sanitised or edited version.

If the leaked version in last Monday's The Star newspaper is an accurate account of what is in the Garda report, it is simply not acceptable and I will join the Carthy family and the Abbeylara community in their call for a full public inquiry.

Mr. Belton

I welcome the opportunity to speak, brief as it is. I am very concerned as a Deputy from that area. I again sympathise with the family on this dreadful tragedy. I understand the Garda are carrying out a comprehensive investigation of the events leading up to this dreadful tragedy. As I have already said, it is important that all the facts are made public by the Garda and the Minister. Confidence must be restored. The family has asked for a certain amount of privacy at this time and are entitled to do so.

The events leading up to this tragedy, the tactics used during the siege and the awful ending to it must be looked at. I have every confidence the Garda will do so. It is important confidence is restored. I look forward to the report and it will be important to consider the family's feelings at that time.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The tragic death of John Carthy in Abbeylara, the circumstances surrounding it and the Garda report should have been the subject of an urgent discussion in Dáil Éireann today. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should have come into the House and answered questions on it. I regret the Ceann Comhairle did not allow me to raise the matter today in that way.

It seems incomprehensible to people that the Garda would not have been sufficiently prepared and trained to bring the situation in Abbeylara to an end without loss of life. Flooding the environs of the Carthy home with detectives wielding machine guns and other severe weapons was an entirely inappropriate response to a situation where an individual armed with a single shotgun was holed up in an agitated state. In the event that a certain use of force was called for, why was there not to hand equipment which would temporarily disabled John Carthy rather than have him shot dead? Is such equipment in the hands of the Garda? If not, why not and if so, why was it not in place in Abbeylara?

What is the current state of the Garda inquiry? Was the Garda the source of a report in a daily newspaper two days ago purporting to be leaks from the inquiry? Will the Minister tell us when will the report be published? We should have it instantly. I call on the Minister as well as the Garda to hold a full public inquiry to get to the bottom of this tragic and sad affair which shocked everyone.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. O'Donoghue)

I am grateful for this opportunity to respond to the questions raised by Deputy Higgins concerning the death of Mr. John Carthy at Abbeylara in County Longford last Holy Thursday. The death of any person in circumstances such as this is tragic, and our first thoughts must be for and with the family of Mr. Carthy. I am very conscious in speaking on the matter of the sadness they must be feeling at this time and I would like to once again express my deepest condolences to them.

A death such as this, involving the use of lethal force by the Garda Síochána, clearly raises serious questions which must be answered and serious issues which must be addressed. The use of firearms by members of the Garda Síochána is, in itself, an exceptional occurrence in what remains in general an unarmed force. That tradition of unarmed policing has been one of the great strengths of the Garda Síochána, but there are occasions where the Garda Síochána must have the capacity to use firearms, and the circumstances where this can occur are strictly regulated by the Garda authorities. The use of firearms is an option of last resort.

Any incident involving the use of firearms by gardaí is, therefore, regarded by the Garda authorities as a serious matter. When, as in this case, the use of firearms results in a death, it is a matter of the utmost priority for the Garda authorities to determine the facts leading to and surrounding the death in order to know what happened, why it happened and what lessons might be learnt for the future.

That is why the Garda Commissioner has appointed a chief superintendent to conduct a thorough investigation into the death of Mr. Carthy. The investigation commenced immediately after the incident and, I am informed, is being conducted as a matter of urgency and with speed.

I know there has been a great deal spoken and written about this incident, with much comment and analysis in the media and I understand the desire for answers which underlies this. It is undeniably a matter of public interest which raises serious issues. It is, however, very important, while the investigation into the death of Mr. Carthy is under way, for everyone to avoid speculating as to what may or may not have happened, to avoid drawing premature conclusions, and to refrain from attributing blame. To do so would do nothing to help achieve the objective which all of us share, which is to establish the facts surrounding the death of Mr. Carthy and to see what lessons may be drawn from them.

What we must do is await the outcome of the investigation. It will be a thorough investigation. It is being conducted with urgency and it will establish the facts. The Garda Commissioner and I have expressed our intention that all of the facts established by this investigation will be put into the public domain. When the full details of the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr. Carthy are known, then we in this House and the public in general will be in a position to form a view on, and draw conclusions from, this tragic event. There will also be an inquest which will further enhance public scrutiny of the circumstances surrounding Mr. Carthy's death.

I know there have been calls for a public inquiry but I believe it would be premature at this stage, in the absence of complete knowledge of all the circumstances, to conclude that there are reasonable grounds for such an inquiry. Let us first examine the facts established by the inquiry which is under way before we form conclusions as to further action.

I am glad of this opportunity once again to extend my sympathy for the family of Mr. Carthy, to assure the House that a thorough investigation is urgently under way into the circumstances surrounding his death, that the facts established by that investigation will be made public and that any lessons which can be learned will be learned.

In particular, it would be remiss of me not to refer to the very balanced contributions which have been made in public and in the House by local Deputies Albert Reynolds and Louis Belton. It would also be remiss of me not to comment upon what I regard as a tendency by the main spokesperson on Justice in the main Opposition party, Fine Gael, to be judgmental where the gardaí are concerned prior to any inquiry having been completed. I make the request, not for the first time, that this tendency cease. In as much as each individual is presumed innocent until proven guilty, the members of the Garda Síochána are entitled to the adoption of the rule of law and to expect due process. They have a right to expect this from the general public and, not least, from the main spokesperson on Justice from the main Opposition party.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): But it has been three weeks.