Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 Jun 2000

Vol. 521 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 21, motion re agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of Romania (referral to committee); No. 22, Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Financial Resolution; No. 23, motion re Council of Europe Centre for Global Interdependence and Solidarity (referral to committee); No. 24, Estimates for Public Services [Vote 6] (returned from committee); No. 25, technical motion re presentation of further Revised Estimates [Votes 10 and 44] and referral to Select Committee; No. 26, motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 38]; No. 27, motion re referral of Supplementary Estimate [Vote 38] to Select Committee; No. 48, Criminal Justice (Safety of United Nations Workers) Bill, 1999 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 1, Merchant Shipping (Investigation of Marine Casualties) Bill, 1999 (Amendment from the Seanad); No. 28, motion re continuance of certain sections of the Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act, 1998; No. 49, Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Bill, 1999 – Report and Final Stages (resumed); No. 50, Copyright and Related Rights Bill, 1999 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; (2) Nos. 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 and 26 and, subject to the agreement of No. 26, No. 27, shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 24 [Vote 6] and No. 26 [Vote 38], any divisions demanded thereon, shall be taken forthwith; (3) the Report and Final Stages of No. 48, shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 15 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform; (4) the proceedings on No. 1, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes, by one question which shall be put from the Chair; (5) the proceedings on No. 28, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after one hour and the following arrangements shall apply, (i) the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, who shall be called upon in that order, and of each other Member called upon, shall not exceed 10 minutes in each case and (ii) Members may share time; and (6) the Report and Final Stages of No. 49, shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after two hours by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Private Members' Business shall be No. 107 – motion re Economic Development and the Environment.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are six proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 and 27 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 48 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 28 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 49 agreed?

Mrs. Owen

On No. 49, I am sure every Member was absolutely appalled by the recent horrific tragedy involving a container at Dover in which 58 asylum seekers died. Will the Tánaiste explain why it has taken from March to June to take Report Stage of this legislation in the House? Why has it taken the Government so long to bring the Bill to the House, given that it was published almost a year ago? Such a tragedy was waiting to happen and is likely to happen to asylum seekers being transported to Ireland. The Government will be found wanting because it has taken a year to process this legislation and to get the message across to transport carriers about the dangers in which they put people in by transporting them in this manner.

Mr. Howlin

There was cross-party support for the original measure published more than a year ago to deal with the issue of trafficking in illegal immigrants, trafficking in human beings. The Government sought to graft on to this legislation substantial amendments to other legislation and has thereby delayed it for a year. The original legislation to deal with trafficking is not on the Statute Book and other controversial legislation has been introduced at a late stage. On Report Stage, substantial new measures were grafted on to this Bill. I will not agree to the guillotining of this portion of the Bill. It was a bad approach from the beginning. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform should have allowed the original trafficking Bill to be enacted and should have introduced a proper immigration Bill to deal with the other matters.

Given that we had some debate belatedly on this important issue, will the Tánaiste allow the main Opposition spokespersons and the Minister sufficient time to deal with this legislation as expeditiously as we can and not require a guillotine of two hours for the remaining important amendments to be addressed by the House?

Mrs. Owen

Some effort was made by the Opposition to assist the Government in the passage of this legislation through the House so that it would be implemented. The blame lies with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for grafting on more amendments, as Deputy Howlin said. If he had processed the Bill as drafted it would be in place now and we would at least be sure that decent sanctions were in place if people behaved in a way similar to that which caused the recent tragedy. Deputy Howlin's question is valid if some debate is still to be had. We want the legislation passed as quickly as possible so that people who illegally transport human beings in such conditions can be prosecuted.

The Tánaiste

That is the issue. It is important that this legislation is enacted as quickly as possible. We need tough and decisive legislation in this area. Trafficking in people is an affront to everybody's dignity. I share the views expressed by Deputies Owen and Howlin in regard to the tragedy at Dover. Committee Stage of this legislation was debated for a long time and it is a matter for the Whips to decide the order in which business is taken in the House. However, as the Deputies will be aware, we have eight Bills to deal with before the end of next week. I believe that two hours this evening should be adequate. This legislation, which will make trafficking illegal, brings in hefty unlimited fines, provides for the forfeiture of vehicles and prison sentences of up to ten years. It is timely and urgent and we should not delay it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed?

Mr. Howlin

I wish to put one question to the Tánaiste because she might not be fully informed on this. Is she aware that the remaining issue to be addressed has no bearing on trafficking? There is consensus to outlaw that practice. The issue to be addressed is the curtailment of the rights of access to the courts for asylum seekers. It is quite a different, extraneous issue that has no right to be grafted on to this legislation. We must insist on the provision of adequate time for that. I can guarantee that for our part that we will—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot debate the content of the Bill now. I call Deputy Barrett.

Mr. Howlin

—with all expedition seek to keep to the timeframe. I will not agree to the proposal. We will require a division if the Tánaiste insists that this legislation will be guillotined as proposed. It is one of 15 guillotines proposed by the Government in the remaining days of this session.

Mr. Barrett

May I make an attempt to bring some agreement into all this? It is extremely difficult to say whether the amendments will be dealt with within two hours, although it is a good guess. Perhaps the Tánaiste would accept that if after an hour of debate on that issue, a further 30 or 45 minutes were needed, the Government Chief Whip could meet with us and we may be able to extend the debate for an extra period in order to get over this difficulty rather than arguing about it. If more than two hours are required, it is better to have that than be beaten in the division and only get two hours. If we need an extra half an hour or so, surely we can sit for that extra time to deal with the issue.

Mr. Stagg

Procedurally, the only options the House has is either to have the guillotine or to remove it.

Mrs. Owen

Given the serious nature of the legislation, will the Tánaiste take into account the suggestions that have been made and will she demonstrate some flexibility on this matter? We do not want to see it continuing beyond the summer recess.

The Tánaiste

We want to finish this Bill tonight. Clearly, it may well be longer than two hours because it depends on when it starts. But we want to finish it by 10.30 p.m. This is the third day of the debate on Report Stage and there have been many long debates on Committee Stage.

Mr. Howlin

On a point of order, that is not factually correct.

Mr. O'Donoghue

It is.

Mr. Howlin

The Report Stage was interrupted by a recommital to committee by brand new amendments that took up the bulk of Report Stage.

Mrs. Owen

Yes, a whole new section.

Mr. Howlin

So we have had very little debate on Report Stage. The bulk of Report Stage was a recommital of brand new amendments to committee. That is not right.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the content of the Bill. Has the Tánaiste anything to say before I put the question?

Mr. Howlin

The Minister should be briefed properly.

The Tánaiste

I understand that—

Mr. O'Donoghue

The Deputy has been filibustering the Bill, for goodness sake.

Mr. Howlin

The Minister has done his own filibustering.

Mr. O'Donoghue

The Deputy has been filibustering the Bill for months.

Mrs. Owen

I was watching the Minister on the monitor and I thought he had gone back into Opposition because he spoke for so long on it.

Question put.

Tá

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.

Cullen, Martin.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie. Jacob, Joe.

Tá–continued

Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.

O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Desmond.O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Belton, Louis.Boylan, Andrew.Broughan, Thomas.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard.Farrelly, John.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.

Hogan, Philip.Howlin, Brendan.McCormack, Pádraic.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Olivia.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Perry, John.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Sargent, Trevor.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Barrett and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Mrs. Owen

Last week the Taoiseach promised action on inflation. However, the Government appears to be at odds regarding what it intends to do about the level of inflation. Will the Tánaiste indicate if the Government intends to introduce measures in the House to deal with rising inflation? The Government has talked in a general way about price orders on drink, etc. What exactly is the Government doing about inflation? Does it intend to introduce measures in the House because little time remains before the summer recess?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is there any promised legislation?

The Tánaiste

No Government has done more in the area of competition than this Government.

Mrs. Owen

What has it done?

The Tánaiste

This is the greatest guarantee that consumers get the best value at reduced prices and with better choice. The Government is concerned about the rise in inflation, but the issue is manageable. We will not be panicked into doing something that might damage the economy. Competition remains the key ingredient. However, in areas where the competitive market is not working—

Mr. Stagg

The free market is not working with regard to housing at present.

The Tánaiste

—the Government will examine possibilities. Obviously, a package of measures will be involved. The Government has an open mind about what it should do and announcements will be made in due course.

Mrs. Owen

Do the words "open mind" mean that the Government does not know what to do? Can the Tánaiste tell the House what exactly the Government has done with regard to competition? Up to one week ago, the Competition Authority did not even have staff to deal with competition inquiries.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not having a debate on the matter. I call Deputy Howlin.

Mrs. Owen

The Tánaiste used the words "open market" and I would like a translation. Does it mean the Government does not have a clue what to do about it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter does not arise on the Order of Business. I ask the Deputy to give way to Deputy Howlin. Deputy Owen will have to find another way of raising the matter.

Mrs. Owen

What does "open mind" mean?

Mr. Dempsey

Obviously Fine Gael does not know what an open mind means.

Mrs. Owen

We are not in Government. The Minister should remember that.

Mr. Barrett

10p on plastic bags.

Mr. Howlin

Have Irish intelligence sources confirmed the threat to the UFF ceasefire which was signalled today? Has the Government been in touch with the UDP and asked it to exert whatever pressure it can on the UFF to ensure that the ceasefire is maintained in the interests of the continuance of the peace process? Have there been any discussions today with any of the other parties to the Good Friday Agreement, particularly the British Government, about dealing with this serious threat?

The Tánaiste

I share the Deputy's concern. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is not present but the Minister for Defence is here and perhaps we can revert to the Deputy. I do not know if any contacts were made between the Irish authorities and other authorities today. However, I will ensure that those responsible contact the Deputy.

Mr. Howlin

Since the Tánaiste shares the widespread concern in this House that such an action would be a serious blow to the peace process, would it be appropriate for both Governments to have a bilateral approach to the UDP to underscore the seriousness any breach of or resiling from the ceasefire would have on the peace process? The Opposition parties should be briefed as a matter of urgency on the measures to be taken to exert whatever pressures are required before midnight tonight.

Mrs. Owen

I share the concerns expressed in the House. Has the Tánaiste had an opportunity to talk to the Taoiseach about this matter? I know he is away on Government business but he is in the presence of Mr. Blair. Have they been briefed by their respective heads of police forces about this threat and, if so, what action will the two Governments take?

The Tánaiste

I have not spoken to the Taoiseach because he is in Portugal, but he will be back later this evening. I am certain he has been briefed. Any action the Governments can take on this matter will be taken. It might not always be wise to make public statements on this issue. I assure Deputies that Opposition parties will be briefed.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Last night's shooting dead of a young man in Limerick brings to a record 29 the number of people who have died in violent circumstances this year. What is the position on the Criminal Justice Bill? What is the position on the establishment of a national DNA database? Is legislation required and, if so, why has it not been published? Why are DNA procedures, which are successful in other jurisdictions in solving violent crimes, not used more in this country?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The first part of the question is appropriate to the Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The heads of the Bill were approved by the Cabinet on 15 February 2000. The Criminal Justice Bill amends the law and procedure in the light of the recommendations of the expert group on criminal law. It will be introduced early next year.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Is legislation necessary to establish a national DNA database?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a question on that matter.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): We welcome the fact that DNA procedures will be updated. Is legislation required to do that?

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform tells me it will be in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which will also be introduced early next year.

Mr. Howlin

When will the new Finance Bill to give effect to the measures announced and approved by the Government last week be published and when is it expected to be debated here? I am sure the Tánaiste knows that Friday week is the last sitting day and Opposition Members would require some time to see the Bill.

The Tánaiste

The Bill was approved by the Cabinet this morning. I am not certain when it will be published but I will ask the Minister for Finance to make a copy available as early as possible to the Opposition spokespersons. It is intended to have a debate, subject to agreement with the Whips, this day next week.

Mr. Howlin

If a finance measure is to be introduced next week, can a revised schedule of legislation be made available as quickly as possible so we know what measures will come before the House before the recess?

The Tánaiste

The Chief Whip will do that.

Mrs. Owen

As regards legislation on the control of rents and on matters dealing with people in rented accommodation whose rents are going through the roof and who are being served with notices to leave the properties—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to ask a question on promised legislation.

Mrs. Owen

—can the Government give a commitment to the legislation recommended by the special group set up to deal with this issue?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That legislation has not yet been promised.

Mrs. Owen

What is the position on the Health Insurance Bill in view of the announcement by the VHI that it will increase premia by 9%?

The Tánaiste

The increase in health insurance has not yet been approved. The Health Insurance Bill was cleared by the Cabinet this morning. As regards private rented accommodation, the commission report is due in July. Any legislation which is necessary will be forthcoming.

Mr. Broughan

Three or four weeks ago the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, introduced new regulations to permit late recipients of social welfare to be compensated for inflationary rises. Will it be possible in the Finance Bill referred to earlier—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Broughan

Is it the Government's intention to introduce a new social welfare Bill given that social welfare payments have disimproved this year?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not promised legislation. I call Deputy Ulick Burke.

Mr. U. Burke

Will the Minister for Education and Science take immediate action to resolve the intolerable situation at Drim national school in Loughrea, County Galway, where children have been denied access to education since before Easter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. U. Burke

Will the Government fast-track the Ombudsman for Children Bill so that a forum and an appeals mechanism can be established? The Minister has failed to negotiate on this serious matter.

The Tánaiste

The heads of the Ombudsman for Children Bill were cleared by the Government a number of weeks ago. The final date for publication of the Bill is in the autumn of this year.

Mr. U. Burke

Will something be done in the interim?

Mr. Stagg

The Taoiseach has promised in recent days to remove 40p off the price of the pint. Given that he has been derogatory in the extreme about price orders, is it his intention to achieve this stated objective by bringing in new legislation or will he introduce a price order?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not promised legislation.

Mr. Stagg

It is threatened. Is it just a gimmick?

The Tánaiste

If the Government decides to introduce price orders, legislation is not required as it can be done by statutory instrument.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Last week on the Order of Business the Taoiseach indicated he would be favourable to providing time before the recess to discuss the tragic death of John Carthy at Abbeylara if the Garda report is ready. Will the Government ensure the report is published so that this serious and tragic matter can be discussed?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Taoiseach referred to it last week and said he would be favourable to providing time before the end of the session.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business. It is for the Whips to decide whether there will be a debate.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the report be ready?

Mr. Gormley

The Water Services Bill is important legislation given the terrible problems we have with water supply in the city. The list states it is expected to be published in 2002. Does the Tánaiste expect the Government to last that long given its instability?

Mr. Howlin

Even the Minister for Public Enterprise finds that amusing.

The Tánaiste

The Bill is promised for 2002. I assure the Deputy we will have the Bill well in advance of the next election.

Mr. Crawford

Given the current inflation figures, will a reduction in the price of petrol and diesel be included in the Finance Bill which will be introduced next week?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not appropriate to discuss what is included in legislation.

Mr. Crawford

It is appropriate from the point of view of inflation.