Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2000

Vol. 527 No. 1

Order of Business (Resumed).

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 21a, motion re Leave to Introduce Supplementary Estimates [Votes 30 and 35]; No. 21b, motion re Referral of Supplementary Estimates [Votes 30 and 35] to select committee; No. 43, Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (resumed); No. 44, Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (resumed); No. 45, Teaching Council Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (resumed); and No. 8, Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 21a and, subject to the agreement of No. 21a, No. 21b shall be decided without debate and any divisions demanded on Nos. 21a and 21b shall be taken forthwith. Private Members' Business shall be No. 103, motion re BSE (resumed) to conclude at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Supplementary Estimates agreed? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Could it be true that the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, has sought a pair to go to Mexico today to be present at the inauguration of the President of Mexico at a time when the taxi issue is still up in the air, the taxi drivers are still on strike and traffic has never been worse?

Mr. Rabbitte

It is safer.

Mr. J. Bruton

I could not believe my eyes when I saw the request for a pair for the Minister of State for this purpose at a time when he is being undermined by the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, Deputy O'Dea, and by members of the Fianna Fáil Party.

Mr. O'Donoghue

That is not true.

Mr. J. Bruton

He was only forced into action on the taxi issue by the courts. He did not take the initiative. Although the Progressive Demo crats are claiming it, it was a court decision which forced action on the taxis. He is displaying his complete lack of seriousness by going to Mexico. What does he expect to learn in Mexico?

Mr. Hayes

He could find a few taxis in Mexico.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is this serious? Can anyone believe this could be true? Has he gone to Mexico?

Mr. Creed

The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, should be sent there.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment on the question?

The Taoiseach

I am sure Deputy John Bruton would like to hear about the excellent progress made and the work being undertaken by the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy. Extensive discussions took place yesterday, 28 November, between the Minister of State and the representatives of the taxi industry, the Irish Taxi Drivers' Federation, the National Taxi Drivers' Union and SIPTU.

Mrs. Owen

That was not the issue raised.

The Taoiseach

The outcome of the discussions was set out in the joint statement issued late last night.

The Minister explained the Government's commitment to the new taxi regulations given that his proposals of last year to issue in excess of 3,000 taxi licences, which would have put all those taxis on the street prior to last summer, were challenged in the courts. We now have new High Court judgments. It is not possible and neither do we intend to amend or delay the new regulations. It was also made clear at yesterday's meeting that the Government is anxious to progress a number of the mitigating measures such as the refund of certain licence fees paid to local authorities and special tax allowances for actual capital loss for the benefit of existing taxi licence holders. The Minister is willing, as already stated, to work with taxi interests and others to develop further quality improvements for taxi services. The taxi group expressed its serious concern at the disruption and the hardship that the new regime would bring to their membership. It specifically identified a number of key issues which it put in the public domain last night and which were noted in the Minister's statement. The Minister noted all these concerns raised but said that cognisance must also be taken of legal constraints. Both sides accepted the importance of continuing the process of dialogue around these and other issues relating to the new taxi regime. This process will be established quickly. Another meeting will take place next Tuesday. Work will be co-ordinated and overseen in the meantime on the Government side by the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment and Local Government. This process will address the detail of the mitigating measures for existing licence holders and development of further qualitative improvements.

In relation to who is paired or not paired, the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy has a long standing commitment but that does not affect his acceptance of a proposal that there would be a person designated to move on the various issues of consultation over the next few days. That person will be the Secretary General of the Department of the Environment and Local Government. The Minister of State on his return will take up the work, wherever it is at that stage. Time will not be lost and there will not be any delay.

Mrs. Owen

Disgraceful.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have statements now, just brief questions.

Mr. J. Bruton

Could there ever be more eloquent evidence that as far as Fianna Fáil is concerned, Ministers do not matter, that the Minister at the centre of the most difficult issue facing the country currently, the absence of a taxi service, can go to Mexico? That proves that politicians do not matter. The Taoiseach has 15 Ministers of State, any one of the other 14 could have gone to Mexico. Is this man serious at all? Is the Progressive Democrats serious at all that it would send one of its tiny band off to Mexico at a time when the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, and his friends are trying to reinstitute regulation of a kind that is restrictive in an area where we need more taxis, not more restriction?

Mrs. Owen

What about the people waiting for taxis today?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn on the same subject – a question please, not a statement.

Mr. Quinn

It must be with incredulity that the nation is learning that Deputy Molly, the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, has a long standing engagement and commitment to go to Mexico at a time when there is crisis, at a time when we have this problem with the regulation of the taxi market and the liberalisation of the numbers that would participate in it. Will the Taoiseach indicate or confirm that Deputy Molloy has left? Can he indicate if he will recall him to resume the negotiations, or is it the case that the Government is on hold, that automatic pilot is operating on the Fianna Fáil side and that it does not really matter who is the Minister? As long as the permanent government, the Secretary General is there one does not really need Ministers? Is that what the Taoiseach is saying to the nation? Are none of the other colleagues capable of taking up this long standing commitment in Mexico City? The Taoiseach has an obligation to inform the nation through this House when Deputy Molloy will come back to resume negotiations.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach for a final reply.

The Taoiseach

First, the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy is away and will be back in about two days time. Second, it was the wish of the taxi groups that somebody should be available to them on an ongoing basis over the next few days to try to work on these issues.

Mr. Finucane

Deputy Ivor Callely.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Finucane

Deputy Ivor Callely was there late last night with the taxi drivers. Was he at the talks?

The Taoiseach

It is a pity for the few years that Fine Gael had responsibility for it, they did not have Deputy Callely. Some licences might have issued in those times. They might have made some progress. Not one licence issued in two and a half years.

Mr. Finucane

The Government had years of obfuscation and indecision—

Mr. C. Lenihan

Fine Gael made no progress when it was around.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. The Taoiseach is in possession.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Molloy successfully moved on the work yesterday following his initiatives a year ago with regard to the 3,000 licences which the courts unfortunately delayed. That would have been on top of the 750 licences previously dealt with. However, those discussions will continue. The taxi groups are due to report back some time tomorrow to the Department on their deliberations following yesterday's discussion. The earliest time there could be any more discussions will be Friday and the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy will be back at that stage anyway.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

We must now move on. I ask the Deputies to move on to the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach's droning on here reciting all that stuff—

An Ceann Comhairle

A question now, Deputy.

Mr. J. Bruton

—displays no understanding. It took most people coming to this House this morning twice as long as it would normally take them to reach Leinster House. In Government Buildings, there is no perception of things being as bad as they are as far as traffic is concerned.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn, a final comment or question on this subject.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. Let us hear Deputy Quinn's question.

Mr. Quinn

In relation to legislation, by the end of the week the Dáil will have passed the Labour Party's Private Members' legislation on political donations. Second Stage will have been deemed to have passed on 1 December. Does the Government intend to make time available next week to discuss Committee Stage of this legislation? It this is not the intention, when will Government legislation, long promised but perhaps being gestated now in Mexico or somewhere else, be delivered to this House?

The Taoiseach

In relation to what happens with Labour Party legislation, a procedure is laid down. In relation to the other matter, as I outlined to Deputy Quinn several times, there are about five or six Bills and the Government will outline shortly how it proposes to proceed with all those Bills.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand the House must refer to the committee.

Mr. Quinn

On promised legislation, on the list that was given in section A at the commencement of this session, we were promised the publication of 15 Bills from the start of the Dáil session up to the Christmas recess which is now just a fortnight away. Only three of those 15 Bills to the best of our analysis have been published. When will the remaining Bills be published?

The Taoiseach

I understand from that list, five have been published and two others which were not on that list. There are several others due over the next week or ten days.

Mr. Kenny

The immediate priority of getting students back to class and teachers back to work—

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this on promised legislation?

Mr. Rabbitte

It is widely anticipated, a Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. Kenny

It is very widely anticipated under the PPF. Can there be confirmation – which would be a great catalyst to moving this forward – of a down payment in respect of the benchmarking process—

An Ceann Comhairle

We are now on the Order of Business. I allowed Private Notice Questions. We cannot have a repetition of the debate yesterday. Deputy Kenny should resume his seat as he is not in order.

Mr. Kenny

This has caused great trouble and distress.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not in order. This is the Order of Business. The matter was fully debated yesterday. The Chair allowed private notice questions yesterday. The Deputy should resume his seat. I call Deputy John Gormley on the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

There is a way of sorting this out.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order on the Order of Business, Deputy. There was ample time allowed yesterday on these questions. We cannot have a repetition today. We have other business to deal with. I am calling Deputy Gormley to put his question on the Order of Business.

Mr. Gormley

The Government has said that Irish troops serving with the European Rapid Reaction Force will require a UN mandate. When will the appropriate legislation be introduced to give effect to this, given that this is not covered by the existing Defence Acts?

The Taoiseach

Legislation already exists. Legislation will be required only if the position changes.

Mr. Gormley

On the same matter, is it not the case that this House can agree to send Irish troops to the European Rapid Reaction Force without a UN mandate?

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter was discussed at Question Time yesterday. We cannot have a repeat of yesterday's Question Time. If the Deputy has a question on promised legislation, he should put that question.

Mr. J. Bruton

This is about legislation.

Mr. Gormley

I have an electoral mandate so I would ask the Chair to bear with me and not to throw me out on this occasion.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should just put his question on promised legislation.

Mr. Gormley

This is a valid point. The reason I raise this today is that it was brought up yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not mean it is in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. Gormley

The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, talked about existing legislation. I have looked at the existing legislation and this is not covered. We can send our troops abroad without a UN mandate.

An Ceann Comhairle

What we can or cannot do cannot be discussed on the Order of Business. Does the Deputy have a question on promised legislation?

Mr. Gormley

Is the Government going to introduce legislation in this House?

The Taoiseach

I answered on that matter yesterday.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Taoiseach did not answer with regard to legislation and whether amendments to the Defence Act are necessary.

(Interruptions.)

Ms O. Mitchell

In the context of promised legislation to compensate taxi men, could the Taoiseach clarify whether this will also provide for the recoupment—

An Ceann Comhairle

Questions about what the legislation will provide for are not in order on the Order of Business.

Ms O. Mitchell

There is promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is, but what legislation provides for is not in order on the Order of Business. The Deputy should resume her seat. She may ask questions on the timing of the legislation but not on its content.

Ms O. Mitchell

This is of great importance and urgency because local authorities are currently doing their estimates.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question?

Ms O. Mitchell

Yes. Will the local authorities be refunded any money they have to repay to taxi men under the new arrangements?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there promised legislation on this matter?

The Taoiseach

As I stated last week, any amendments relating to taxation will be included in the next Finance Bill.

Ms O. Mitchell

That does not answer the question.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Deputy de Valera, voted down a Labour Party amendment last week on the extent of cross-ownership in the media on the basis that the Tánaiste would be introducing legislation to deal with that matter. When are we likely to see that legislation? Cross-ownership of the media is a matter of concern on this side of the House. I can understand that there is not the same degree of concern on the other side of the House.

The Taoiseach

If I understand the Deputy correctly, he is talking about competition.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am referring to cross-ownership as between the print media and the broadcast media.

The Taoiseach

I do not know where the Deputy got that, but if he is talking about the competition and mergers legislation, it will be going to Government shortly.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am not referring to the Taoiseach's new adviser; I am referring to cross-ownership.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Bruton

It is pay back time all the time now.

Mr. Yates

Is the Taoiseach aware that, at a time of unprecedented homelessness and housing crisis, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government has been unable to spend the full budget for housing amounting to £27 million, which will be returned to the Exchequer? It is an absolute disgrace.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order.

Mr. Gilmore

Two weeks ago, when I asked the Taoiseach about the Local Government Bill, he told me that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government was ready to take the Second Stage of that Bill when it was ordered. Is the Minister still ready to do that or has there been a palace revolt in Fianna Fáil over that Bill which has now been published for seven months, was listed to be introduced this session, but has not yet been introduced here at Second Stage? Will we have that Bill at Second Stage this session?

The Taoiseach

I do not answer on unscheduled matters. The legislation is before the House and it is a matter to be taken by agreement.

Mr. Gilmore

It is not before the House.

The Taoiseach

It is before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on the matter. There cannot be cross-examination.

Mr. Gilmore

The Minister for the Environment and Local Government has changed his mind on this several times. Is it going to be introduced? Where is the great reformer now?

Mr. Belton

He is out on a photo call.

Mr. Coveney

In the light of the Garda Commissioner's comments last night on the nine o'clock news, and in order to maximise public confidence in the Garda Síochána, has the Taoiseach promised legislation that will facilitate the setting up of an independent body to investigate public complaints against the Garda Síochána?

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation, but the commissioner's comments—

Mr. Howlin

There is, promised by the Minister for Justice Equality and Law Reform during the last Question Time.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply.

Mr. Howlin

On a point of order, the Taoiseach has just misled the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mrs. Owen

It is.

The Taoiseach

Let me reply to Deputy Coveney.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business is concluded. We will proceed to the next business.