Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2000

Vol. 528 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be No. 19a– Motion re: Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions; No. 20 – Motion re: Sale of ICC Bank; No. 48 – Broadcasting Bill, 1999 – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 49 – Irish Film Board (Amendment) Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 1 – Fisheries (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 50 – Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (resumed); and No. 45 Financial Motions by the Minister for Finance [2000] (Motion 4, resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding in Standing Orders that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.00 p.m., the sitting shall be suspended from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. and the Dáil shall also sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and adjourn not later than 4.45 p.m.; (2) No. 19a shall be decided without debate; (3) the proceedings on No. 20, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 45 minutes and shall be confined to a speech not exceeding 15 minutes by each of the following Members, who may share time: a Minister and Minister of State and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party; (4) the Report and Final Stages of No. 48 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.00 p.m. by one question which will be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands; (5) the Report and Final Stages of No. 49 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands; (6) the Report and Final Stages of No. 1 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources; (7) the Second Stage of No. 50 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 9.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are seven proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting today and the sitting tomorrow agreed to?

Mr. Quinn

Am I correct in understanding the procedure we are now about to agree means that if we agree to the first proposal there will not be an Order of Business when the House convenes at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow?

An Ceann Comhairle

There will be an Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

I want to ensure that we may have the possibility, or obligation, to comment on proceedings elsewhere in this city. Will there be an opportunity to consider proposals for the Order of Business tomorrow?

An Ceann Comhairle

There will be an Order of Business tomorrow.

Mr. Quinn

Will the House be required to give its assent to the Order of Business tomorrow in the normal way?

An Ceann Comhairle

For proposals on the Order of Business. If there are no proposals there will be no need for consent.

Mr. Quinn

Why are we ordering tomorrow's business today?

The Taoiseach

We are not.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not. It is only proposed that we agree to sit tomorrow. Is the proposal agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 19a agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 20 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 48 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 49 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 50 agreed to? Agreed. On the Order of Business I call Deputy John Bruton.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Taoiseach happy with the arrangements apparently applying with regard to the release of the Provisional IRA members who were involved in the killing of Garda Jerry McCabe? Will he confirm that these prisoners are treated differently from other prisoners on the question of applying for compassionate leave, that the normal welfare officer examination that would apply to other life prisoners who committed other crimes is not applied to them and that they are released much more readily without checking than would be normal prisoners? Is there a political deal involving Sinn Féin to facilitate these prisoners being treated differently from other prisoners who have committed other equally serious offences?

Mr. Quinn

On the same matter, yesterday the Private Notice Question answered by the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Mary Wallace, was not clear about whether there was or was not a formal or informal agreement between representatives of the Government and representatives of Sinn Féin in respect of the extraordinary and unique, as far as we are concerned, parole arrangements for these people who were convicted of the manslaughter of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe. The Minister of State was not in a position to give an authoritative answer. Will the Taoiseach confirm that there was such an agreement following negotiations with representatives of Sinn Féin on behalf of these Provisional IRA activists?

The Taoiseach

I listened to the majority of the debate here yesterday during which the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Wallace, answered questions. I do not want to go over the hour long debate again other than to agree with what she said.

As was stated in the House in the past few months, four of the people in custody on charges arising in connection with the killing of Detective Garda McCabe have been granted short periods of compassionate parole over the past number of months. I reiterate that the applications for compassionate parole were considered in accordance with the normal criteria which apply in such cases. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was satisfied in each case that the granting of a period of compassionate parole was justified. There were not any special arrangements or special conditions applying to that. All the releases were subject to standard conditions, such as keeping the peace and being of good behaviour.

I understand that such releases can cause considerable distress to the family of the victim, but the granting of compassionate parole has long been a feature of prisons administration both here and elsewhere. Each case must be assessed on its merits. I have asked, particularly in this case – I understand from listening to the debate yesterday that the House would wish this – that in the case of the release of anyone connected with Detective Garda Jerry McCabe the family and the local gardaí should be informed. I am not sure that was clear yesterday.

Mr. Shatter

They were not informed and they should have been.

Ms O'Sullivan

What happened in this case?

The Taoiseach

I strongly reiterate what I and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have stated on many occasions, that the persons convicted in connection with the death of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe do not qualify for release under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. I have been asked several times to change from that position and to have a different arrangement, but I resisted and desisted from doing that and I will continue to do so. Attempts have been made to equate the short release on compassionate grounds of the persons in question with their early release under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. That is not the case. What was granted here was compassionate parole.

Mr. Shatter

In the context of a different agreement.

The Taoiseach

As was stated yesterday, breaches of the conditions attached to compassionate parole in these cases were not reported to either the prison authorities or to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Any such reports would be fully investigated. I hope that fully answers the question.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach check the veracity of everything he has just said because some of the things he said are not true? Is it the case that there is no such thing in Irish law as compassionate parole? There is only temporary release under section 2 of the Criminal Justice Act, 1960. Is it the case that different arrangements in relation to escorting prisoners on temporary release under that section are applied to prisoners other than these prisoners? Is it the case that the normal welfare officer examination of the alleged grounds for compassion did not occur in these cases in the same way as it would have occurred in other cases where, for example, medical certificates from general practitioners given in respect of relatives would be independently checked? Were those medical certificates independently checked in these cases?

Could I have a clear assurance that henceforth the rules under section 2 of the 1960 Act will be applied in exactly the same way to these prisoners as to any other prisoners who commit offences of equivalent seriousness? This must be done on the basis of rules, not individual discretion. We must remember we are talking about the killing of a member of the Garda Síochána, not about a minor offence.

Mr. Quinn

I am sorry to have to get to my feet again but I must restate my question. Perhaps the Taoiseach in his prepared reply did not have a response for it. I want clarification from the Taoiseach arising from the statements made yesterday by the Minister of State. Were there discussions with representatives of Sinn Féin and, if so, what was the nature of those discussions? Was a deal done in respect of this release?

The Taoiseach

I thought I made it clear to Deputy Quinn that that is not the case. Sinn Féin has raised the case of these individuals a number of times. Its argument is that they should apply under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. However, the Government's decision is they do not. I have reiterated that.

Mr. Howlin

Are there special arrangements?

The Taoiseach

There are not any special conditions. I have been asked many times and I have refused.

Mr. Quinn

I am clear about what the Taoiseach just said, which was said repeatedly by the Minister of State yesterday under pressure. However, were there specific negotiations about temporary release, not about whether they are encompassed by the Good Friday Agreement?

The Taoiseach

In so far as there is temporary release or compassionate parole, which is the term used by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in this and a number of cases, I did not have any discussions or I am not aware of any discussions. It was not raised. What Sinn Féin has raised in this regard is clear. It believes these individuals should be out under the Good Friday Agreement. We do not share that view and that should be quite clear.

Deputy John Bruton asked a number of detailed questions. They were asked in the House yesterday and the Minister of State, who is briefed on those matters in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, answered them.

Mr. Noonan

She did not answer the questions.

The Taoiseach

She answered them for 50 minutes and she answered them well.

Mr. McGahon

By the Taoiseach's reckoning.

The Taoiseach

The conditions which apply to compassionate parole, as understood by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, were followed in this case.

Mr. McGahon

What compassion did the IRA show to Detective Garda McCabe?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. We should move on to the Order of Business proper.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach help the House by publishing the rules which apply in this case under section 2 of the 1960 Act? It is important to make the point that this is not a discretion. There are rules which must apply. Will the Taoiseach make available to me a copy of the rules giving a clear indication as to the procedures in relation to checking for any application for temporary release? Many suggestions are being made which clearly indicate these prisoners are being treated differently from other prisoners. I hope the Taoiseach will carefully check what he said in the House because it would be serious for him and for the House if he was not accurate in his answers on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must move on to the Order of Business proper.

Mr. Noonan

I wish to clarify a matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot do so. This matter is confined to leaders. This is the Order of Business. No other Member can intervene on this matter. We must move on.

A Deputy

The Deputy is not the leader yet.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputy has missed his chance.

Mr. Noonan

I am not in the mood to mock. I know the McCabe family. This is not a joke in my city.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot speak on this subject. He is not in order. Deputy Noonan should resume his seat. The Deputy is not in order in raising a question on this subject. It is the Order of Business and this is a special arrangement for party leaders.

Mr. Noonan

I appreciate that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must accept it.

Mr. Noonan

I accept your ruling, a Cheann Comhairle, but I would like your advice. As we are at the end of the session, I do not have any way to clarify an important matter with the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business is not the way to do so.

Mr. Noonan

Will you accept a Private Notice Question this afternoon?

An Ceann Comhairle

All Private Notice Questions will receive consideration.

Mr. Noonan

I do not have a way to raise this matter until February.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not the Chair's problem. The Deputy could raise it on the Adjournment. The matter will be considered if the Deputy submits an Adjournment debate matter or a Private Notice Question. I call Deputy Quinn on another matter.

Mr. Quinn

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for facilitating me on the Order of Business. On 11 October, following fairly heated exchanges in this House, a compromise was arrived at whereby a statement was issued by the party leaders in respect of the obligations of all citizens generally, and in particular Members of the Oireachtas, to comply fully with the operation of tribunals established by this House. The text is available but I am precluded from reading it on the Order of Business. Is the Taoiseach prepared to amend the Order of Business to incorporate by way of a motion to be taken without debate, since the text has already been extensively negotiated and arrived at, and that this House would affirm, by way of motion, what we stated by way of joint statement by party leaders on 11 October before we adjourn tonight? To facilitate the House I will read the statement again as follows:

The Flood Tribunal was established by the unanimous will of the Members of this House.

Every citizen and, even more so, every Member of the Oireachtas owes a legal, moral and democratic duty to co-operate with the Tribunal, not to obstruct it and to comply with its lawful orders.

We would expect any citizen and any member of the Oireachtas who disputed the validity or legality of any Tribunal order to make his or her case to the Tribunal and, if necessary, to the Courts.

I plead with the Taoiseach on behalf of all of us in this House to put this by way of motion to be taken without debate in light of what is happening, and has happened over the last 24 hours. This does not impact on the reputation of just any one individual in this House, it impacts on the reputation of all of us.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make long statements.

Mr. Quinn

I am not, Sir, but this is unprecedented. I implore the Taoiseach, on behalf of his own Members and on behalf of all Members of this House, to amend the Standing Orders and to provide for this text to be incorporated by way of a motion to be taken tomorrow or later today without debate since it has been already negotiated and agreed by the party leaders.

The Taoiseach

This is the second item being taken this morning which seems to be outside the special rulings of the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

Each leader has the right to raise matters.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

That means when the two parties join together they can do this. At least we will know the rules. Deputy Flanagan asked yesterday for clarification on this matter, which would be useful. Deputy Quinn asked a question.

Mr. Shatter

The Taoiseach should answer the people who keep him in Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Bruton, on the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach comment on the fact that members of the Real IRA apparently were able to hold up members of the Garda Síochána and—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's question is not relevant to the Order of Business. Again there are other means of raising matters during the day. We are now on the Order of Business and the two leaders have raised separate questions. The Taoiseach.

Mr. Shatter

The Taoiseach has no answer in relation to Deputy Lawlor.

The Taoiseach

If we can have order, I wish to reply to Deputy Quinn. The Deputy referred to a matter on which he believes a motion should be tabled. I agree with the content of what he said. I am not sure what the implications of such a motion would be for the tribunal. I will be pleased to check this out and, if it is in order, it could be included tomorrow.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

When will the part-time workers Bill be introduced in this House because it has been delayed continuously.

The Taoiseach

I believe it will be published in the next few days.

Ms Fitzgerald

When is it intended to bring legislation to the House to amend the Human Rights Commission Act? The Minister said in this House last night that there would be a climbdown—

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not intended legislation. The Deputy must refer to clearly promised legislation.

Ms Fitzgerald

If new members are being appointed to the Human Rights Commission, the existing legislation must be amended. I want to ask the Taoiseach if the Government intends to do this, because this is what the Minister said last night. This is very relevant.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question is only relevant if the Government has promised legislation. Is there promised legislation?

The Taoiseach

The Minister is in discussions with the NGOs and other groups, including the chairman. I believe the negotiations will conclude tomorrow when he will make the necessary announcement.

Mrs. Owen

Is amending legislation necessary?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley, on the Order of Business.

Mr. Gormley

When can we expect legislation in relation to a referendum on the Nice Treaty?

The Taoiseach

I replied yesterday that the matter would be considered as soon as the full legal text is available. I refer the Deputy to what I said in the House yesterday.

Mr. Shatter

Last week in this House the tragic circumstances which resulted in the death of Nancy Nolan were raised and the Minister responded. Is the Taoiseach in a position to indicate whether the Minister will make a further statement before the adjournment of the Dáil concerning the early release of Mr. Thomas Murray and whether further investigations are being conducted into any other serious offences committed by him given that his release resulted in the death of Nancy Nolan?

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not in order. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Shatter

The Taoiseach should reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to co-operate and abide by Standing Orders. I appeal to the Deputy to co-operate with the Chair.

Mr. Gilmore

I wish to raise two matters relating to legislation. The first matter relates to the Local Government Bill. The Taoiseach said last week that Second Stage of the Bill would be taken in the next session. The Labour Party is anxious to facilitate the Government in having the Bill debated in this House and I ask the Taoiseach if he can give a commitment that the Second Stage of the Bill will be taken in the first two weeks of the next session?

The second matter relates to the commission on the private rented sector. Has the Government made a decision on its response to that report, when will it be announced and when will the legislation arising from it be published?

The Taoiseach

On the first matter, if the Whips agree, the Minister is anxious to take the Bill early in the next session.

Mr. Flanagan

Deputy Healy-Rae will raise it.

The Taoiseach

On the second matter, the Government has considered this issue but it has not yet finalised its considerations. I believe the Minister envisages legislation which I hope will be taken as soon as possible. I am aware that the Minister of State, Deputy Molloy, is anxious to deal with this issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny.

Mr. Kenny

Yesterday the Taoiseach said that he was at a loss to know what the teachers' strike was about. Has a date been fixed for a meeting between the Minister and ASTI?

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not relevant to the Order of Business.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is currently considering questions submitted for Private Notice Questions. I call Deputy Healy-Rae.

Mr. Healy-Rae

On promised legislation, what plans has the Taoiseach to introduce legislation to assist young drivers in relation to the huge cost of motor car insurance?

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

I am not aware of legislation in relation to that issue. However, young drivers are being given considerable assistance.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear the Taoiseach. I call Deputy Belton.

Mr. Belton

Does the Taoiseach plan to introduce emergency legislation in light of the threat to the leaving certificate examinations?

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no promised legislation in that area.

Mr. Quinn

On yesterday's Order of Business I requested that the Government consider bringing forward a motion to provide for the referral to the relevant committee the Labour Party's Private Members' legislation dealing with political party funding and corporate donations. The Taoiseach undertook to consider the situation and perhaps place the item on today's Order of Business. I note that this has not happened. The motion to which I refer is purely mechanical in nature and we require Government time to deal with it because it cannot be dealt with in Private Members' time. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment to include the matter on tomorrow's Order of Business?

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy moves the motion now I will agree to it.