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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2000

Vol. 528 No. 3

Sale of ICC Bank: Motion.

I move:

"That Dáil Éireann:

(i) notes that the Governor and Company of the Bank of Scotland has announced its intention to make an offer for ICC Bank plc which values ICC Bank at IR£275 million,

(ii) approves, pursuant to Section 4 of the ICC Bank Act, 2000, the disposal of the Minister's shares to bank of Scotland subject to the terms of the offer, and

(iii) approves that, pursuant to the irrevocable undertaking to be given by the Minister to Bank of Scotland subject to the terms of the offer, the Minister reserves his right to accept a better competing offer made on or before 16 January 2001 which must be at least 10% higher than Bank of Scotland's offer."

The Bank of Scotland recently announced its intention to make an offer under Irish Take-over Panel Rules for ICC Bank plc. Under section 4 (2) of the ICC Bank Act, 2000, I am required to obtain a motion of approval from the House prior to disposing of any shares in ICC Bank. As Deputies will be aware, a copy of the pre-offer document has been circulated to all Members of the House. I will refer to the details of the pre-conditional recommended offer later.

I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate ICC Bank on its achievements over the past 67 years. ICC was set up in 1933 as a channel to provide finance for the establishment of native industry. At that time, of course, the financial sector in general was very poorly developed. As Irish industry has grown, so has ICC Bank as it steadily expanded its range of services and the type of business it financed. This has now broadened to a full range of financial services to many businesses. Sectors served by the bank now include transport, software, tourism, distribution and a wide range of service sectors as well as manufacturing.

The 1980s saw the introduction of additional trade products and the expansion of the bank's commercial loan portfolio and treasury services, including foreign exchange services. ICC equity investment activity was also expanded by direct investment and by the establishment and management of venture capital funds. Venture capital is a major part of its core business and it is one of the leading providers of venture capital in Ireland.

ICC Bank has always worked closely over the years with the Minister for Finance of the day. Successive Ministers have had an excellent working relationship with the board and the staff and I take this opportunity to thank all the members of the board of directors and the staff of ICC Bank down through the years for their commitment and hard work, all of which culminated in making ICC the successful bank it is today. The bank is highly professional, successful and operates to very high standards.

It is impressive to note that since its beginning ICC Bank has made a profit in each year of its operation and that this year will mark a further significant improvement. While the State has made equity investments totalling £36.9 million over the years, the bank has grown through retained profits and deposits and loans to a stage where its balance sheet now amounts to over £2.8 billion. The most recent interim results show pre-tax profits up by 64% to £18.3 million and the cost to income ratio reduced to 35.8% from 47.1 % for the same period last year.

As Members are aware, the climate in which ICC operates has evolved dramatically since its early days. There is now significantly more competition from the private sector in the areas in which the bank specialises and a considerable increase in the levels of expertise and particularly risk management required in banking generally. The board concluded, with my support, that the company's future would be best served by a change of ownership.

The Government made a decision in principle in mid-1998 in favour of disposing of the State's interest in ICC Bank. Following this decision, a sale process was initiated in 1999 and we all know that the outcome was unsatisfactory – mainly because of the general decline in the valuation of financial stocks at that time. I suspended the sale process temporarily in December of last year, but I asked the board to review all options for the future and reiterated my view that the current status quo was not an option. Earlier this year, I authorised the board to explore the options for a change in ownership. This process led to the bid by Bank of Scotland.

The board recommended my acceptance of the pre-conditional offer announced by Bank of Scotland for ICC Bank on 5 December, which values ICC at £275 million. My advisers have also indicated to me that the offer represents fair value. The offer was made by Bank of Scotland subject to Dáil Éireann passing this motion of approval for the disposal of my shares and receiving an irrevocable undertaking from me to accept its offer for ICC Bank.

I have agreed to give this irrevocable undertaking but retain the right to consider a bid, by 16 January 2001, provided it is 10% higher than Bank of Scotland's offer. The board of ICC Bank has advised me to accept this offer as the price Bank of Scotland is offering represents a significant premium on the price offered last year. I have also received advice from my financial advisers, ABN AMRO, that it is appropriate for me, as shareholder, to enter into the irrevocable undertaking proposed by Bank of Scotland. The offer is being made under the Irish take-over panel rules which means that the offer is fully binding, provided the conditions set out in the offer document are satisfied.

The irrevocable undertaking will be in respect of the approximately 85% of ICC's issued share capital owned by me. This excludes the ICC shares to be transferred to the employee share ownership plan. On a small technical point, a special dividend was approved at an ICC EGM on 1 December 2000. It will be paid to ICC minority shareholders who hold approximately 1,650 shares, provided the offer is declared wholly unconditional and I am satisfied that the interests of this very small block of shareholders are fully protected.

This is an excellent opportunity for the expertise in the ICC Bank to develop further under the umbrella of a much larger group. Bank of Scotland is a diversified financial services group engaged in a range of banking, insurance broking, financial services and finance related activities throughout the United Kingdom and internationally. We are all aware of the impact the bank made when it became involved in the mort gage market here in Ireland. In that case, keenly priced mortgages offered by Bank of Scotland played an important part in the reduction of margins on mortgage rates generally. The Irish commercial banking market is considered by Bank of Scotland to be attractive, not only because of the growth of the Irish economy but also because there is real opportunity to offer vigorous competition in the market.

Bank of Scotland's financial strength and standing is a significantly positive aspect of the offer. Given the structure of funding of ICC Bank's deposits and borrowings, it is important that any purchaser should be of sufficient financial standing and strength to secure the current and future funding of the bank. I am glad to say Bank of Scotland has such a standing.

Deputies will be aware that over the years various State guarantees have been given in relation to deposits placed with ICC Bank. For some time there has been a policy in place of limiting and reducing the level of guarantees provided and those outstanding in ICC's case are only a small fraction of their overall funds. The level of guarantees will be actively reduced as facilities mature and alternative facilities are made available. Meanwhile, Bank of Scotland is providing a counter indemnity in respect of the capital on outstanding funds that are State guaranteed. Given the continuing, though reducing, guarantee which the State will be providing on some of ICC Bank's funding pending maturity, it is important that the party giving the State a counter indemnity covering such guarantees is of appropriate quality and strength. Again, Bank of Scotland provides such financial strengths.

The purchase of ICC Bank by Bank of Scotland should significantly improve career opportunities within the bank for the employees of ICC.

The ESOP agreed between management and staff of ICC will also be honoured by Bank of Scotland. The terms of the offer envisage that the ESOT shares in ICC will be swapped for Bank of Scotland shares. This is in line with the terms set out in the transformation and flexibility agreement. In return for a 5% stake in ICC, the staff have agreed to: increasing the hours in the working week; outsourcing of services; an open-ended option to reduce staff numbers on a voluntary basis; transfers within the bank; changes in duties; closer linking of performance and reward; no cost increasing claims to be submitted for a period of three years; and continuation of staff flexibility.

Another element in the ESOP was the purchase of 9.9% of the shares in ICC for £19.8 million, funded through increased pension contributions, borrowings, dividends and a 5% profit share arrangement subject to a cumulative limit of £6 million.

Based on the value of the offer now made by Bank of Scotland of £275 million, the 5% element which relates to the transformation of ICC would be worth about £40,000 to each staff member. Based on the offer price, the staff would, having purchased the 9.9% stake for £19.8 million, get a futher benefit amounting to an average of £20,000 per employee. It is likely to be at least four years before staff receive any benefit, with the benefit being distributed over the following ten years or more.

The acquisition of ICC Bank will provide Bank of Scotland with a significant boost to its existing commercial banking operations in Ireland. Bank of Scotland's existing commercial businesses in Ireland are principally focused on the small and medium sized business sector and this is precisely the focus of ICC Bank's operations. Over nearly 70 years, ICC Bank has built up a strong presence in this sector and has earned a reputation for integrity, efficiency and customer service. Bank of Scotland intends to develop these businesses, focused on the SME sector. Accordingly, as advised by the board of ICC Bank, the proposed acquisition should contribute to the development of the company which would enable an expanded and improved range of services to be provided to its customers.

Overall, I believe this is a very favourable offer with obvious advantages for both banks and I am hopeful it will increase competition in the Irish banking sector.

I say a very special thank you to the current board of ICC Bank under the chairmanship of Philip Flynn, as well as its management and all the employees who have contributed to making the bank the profitable and attractive institution it is today and for bringing this excellent proposal for a change in ownership to me.

Under the takeover panel rules and the terms of the offer, other bidders will have until the middle of January to submit offers to me, through the board. The motion before the House is for the current bid only – one which I have agreed to accept. If the board recommends a higher bid to me and I contemplate acceptance, I will come back to the House with a new motion of approval.

The Exchequer will receive £234 million from Bank of Scotland in respect of the 85% of shares that will be held by me when I accept the offer. The Exchequer will also receive a further £19.8 million from the ESOT in respect of the 9.9% stake in ICC that it is purchasing, bringing total receipts to the Exchequer to almost £254 million. I will be considering the appropriate use of these proceeds once they have been paid into the Central Fund and I will report back to the House at the appropriate time on this point.

I commend the motion to the House.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Ulick Burke and Seán Barrett.

I welcome the announcement by Bank of Scotland that it is acquiring ICC Bank for a consideration of approximately £275 million. It has been the policy of the Fine Gael Party, for reasons which have been stated on several occasions, that ICC should be sold for the best price available. Changes in the banking industry have made it very difficult for small banks, such as ICC, to continue to operate independently.

I note the contribution ICC has made to the commercial life of Ireland over many years. The bank has approximately 3,000 loan customers, most of them in small and medium sized enterprises. It has helped to build up the industrial base of the country, particularly the indigenous industrial base. In more recent times the bank has been involved in venture capital advances and it has stakeholdings in about 100 companies, most of which are based in Ireland.

When, just before Christmas last year, the Minister withdrew ICC from the market the price offered was significantly less than the price which has now been negotiated. That was a good decision and the arrangement now in place is more satisfactory than the one envisaged at that time. I wish the new venture every success. I appreciate it has not been finalised yet. The Minister has agreed that if a competitive bid 10% higher than the £275 million offered by the Bank of Scotland is made before 10 January, he will opt for the higher bid at that stage. Does the Minister envisage the possibility of a higher bid being made and being accepted or does he envisage a round of negotiations taking place, sparked off by the higher bid, which would change the value of the company?

I welcome the arrangements for the employee share option scheme. It is important that such a scheme should be in place. The Bank of Scotland is, effectively, acquiring 85% of ICC and the remaining 15% will be owned by the employees of the company through an ex gratia grant of 5% of the shares and the purchase of 9.9%. That is satisfactory but I am unclear as to how employees will acquire the value of their shares. I presume they will be paid in Bank of Scotland shares, that there will be an exchange of Bank of Scotland shares for their shareholdings in ICC Bank and a market in Bank of Scotland shares as it is a quoted company. In light of this I do not understand why the Minister says it will not be possible for employees to obtain the value of their shares within four years. If someone retires from ICC Bank in the spring I do not understand why he or she will not be able to cash his or her shares or acquire their value on the market.

In general I agree with this proposal. In any situation such as this there is always an element of making up one's mind that it is the best deal available. The other interested parties entered into negotiations with the Department of Finance at a very late stage. Decisions have to be made and, in general terms, Fine Gael approves of what is happening.

The banking industry is becoming more difficult all the time. The Royal Bank of Scotland is a major shareholder in Ulster Bank in which there are imminent industrial relations problems. Structural changes are being introduced in the bank which are having an adverse impact on employees. I hope the Minister and his advisers, and the management and board of ICC Bank, have taken account of the possibility of difficulties with management and staff when new regimes and business profiles are put in place.

I compliment the chairman of ICC Bank, Mr. Phil Flynn, who is known to many Members. His jump from trade union activist to bank chairman has been one of the great leaps forward in this country.

It is one of the greatest conversions of all time.

Mr. Flynn has fulfilled the role of chairman very successfully, which shows what a thriving, modern and open economy can achieve. His name would not be one of the first to come to mind if one was head-hunting a bank chairman, yet he has carried out his functions admirably and brought the sale of the bank to a successful conclusion.

I welcome the proposal for the sale of ICC Bank. My only reservation is that, in terms of rationalisation in the banking industry, our experience of the Bank of Scotland has been largely in the provision of mortgages. ICC Bank has traditionally been associated with financing small enterprises. Were it not for the availability of its resources, many small enterprises would not be in business. We must accept and acknowledge the part played by ICC Bank in providing resources for the development of many small industrial and other enterprises.

Will the Minister clarify whether there is any guarantee that the Bank of Scotland will continue the ideals of ICC Bank or whether its clientele will be looked after in the same way by the Bank of Scotland when it incorporates ICC Bank? This is my only reservation about this proposal, which I welcome in general terms. I hope the acquisition will allow the work of ICC Bank to continue.

I have no ideological problem with the sale of ICC Bank. I am more concerned about the role and activity of the bank, particularly as regards the establishment of small businesses. I am deeply sceptical about the Bank of Scotland's role in the purchase of this bank. What has been happening to the staff of Ulster Bank has been disgraceful.

I note the Minister's comments about guarantees from the staff of ICC Bank to the Bank of Scotland. However, we are seeing the take-over of large banks by banks from outside this State who are applying fairly rigid and tough decisions regarding the closure of branches, the treatment of staff and the breaking of agreements. My concern is there will be no institution to replace ICC Bank if the rainy day returns in terms of venture capital. The Bank of Scotland is a large bank whose commitment is to its shareholders. I understand this approach, but it is not going to look after small and medium-sized businesses in Ireland if it is not to its liking.

Can the Minister obtain any guarantees on the future development of ICC Bank under the control of the Bank of Scotland? The money being raised from the sale will be very useful as it is going into the State's coffers, however people's livelihoods and jobs are at risk. We must take account of events in Ulster Bank, including the threatened closure of its branch in my constituency. Branch offices are part of the banking system and banks must be able to fund them. Banks must also be able to live up to their commitments to staff and not push people around when they take over.

I am deeply concerned about the situation based on the experience in Ulster Bank. We should look very closely at this proposal. The Minister introduced the Central Bank Bill, which has not yet been moved in the House, which authorises the Central Bank to take into account the continuation of the branch structure as part of the overall banking system. I support this approach as the branch system is essential to many areas.

Many banks are reducing the services they provide to the public through their branches, there are long queues and people sometimes have to wait 45 minutes to be served. The public is being left behind. What discussions have taken place or what has been put on paper regarding the continuation of the Bank of Scotland's role in the provision of venture capital to small and medium-sized business? What other options were available apart from the sale of ICC Bank?

Fine Gael supports the overall thrust of the Minister's proposal but I urges a little caution. In the past, companies experiencing difficulties could approach financial institutions such as Fóir Teoranta, ICC Bank and others in the knowledge they would receive assistance. Regrettably, there are no such institutions to which businesses can now go.

This country is going through a period of business expansion. In the event of a downturn – which occurs in all aspects of business at different times – and difficulties arising in the future, there is no banking or financial institution with which the State would have a say in guiding or assisting a company. This loss creates a vacuum and the Minister should address this.

The ICC has done excellent work over the years. With regard to the financial structure in banking, many of the rules and regulations introduced by the major banking institutions are ludicrous. Those who have a cheque drawn on the Bank of Ireland in Birr cannot cash it in a branch of the Bank of Ireland in Dublin or Drogheda, they must lodge the cheque in their account. All that does is generate greater profits for the bank, in that, such cheques must be lodged and there is no withdrawal of such moneys. That system imposes additional costs on customers, which while beneficial for generating profits, has resulted in a disimprovement in the service offered to customers. Ordinary customers who carry out everyday banking business get the raw end of the stick, which is regrettable. They are being charged for everything. I am in favour of profits in banks and I have shares in the banks, but the system must be fair. The banks are being hard on customers. The Minister has discussions with the major financial institutions from time to time and he should address that problem with them. I agree, however, with the overall thrust of the Bill.

While I did not agree with the overall thrust of what was in the Bill we passed a few weeks ago, I have no particular difficulty with the motion before us. In a sense, we have flogged this issue to death. We have debated it here at least on four occasions during the past 12 months, but there has not been a meeting of minds. While we have spent a good deal of time debating it, when it comes to the views of the Members on these benches, the Minister has not been on the same planet in terms of dealing with issues that arose in the debate. I believe the Minister is selling the bank for one reason only – he believes, as a matter of ideological principle, that the State should not own banks. He has not, in any real sense, engaged with the arguments we have heard this morning.

I can understand why the Minister would not listen to people, such as me, because he would see that there is an ideological gap between us, but what was most striking about the Second Stage debate a month or so ago were the views of Deputies with a small business background. Many of them recounted experiences in their constituencies and, in one or two cases, they recounted personal experiences of having used the facilities offered by the ICC. In the not too distant past the ICC, in some ways, was a lender of last resort. It was a bank that small businesses considered they could approach and use sometimes in circumstances where they could not get loan facilities elsewhere. That is not the case any more. I acknowledge, as others have, that currently it is not difficult for most small businesses to get loan or other facilities, but it is possible that in the not too distant future, circumstances will arise where it will be difficult for small businesses to get loan facilities on acceptable terms. In those circumstances, it is appropriate that the State should have a toe hold in the sector – and it would be no more than that – which can nonetheless perform a useful strategic role, not only in what it does but in leveraging the rest of the sector. As the Minister knows well, it has performed that role in the past and it could have done so again. It is unfortunate we will not have that possibility in the future.

As regards the deal before us, I am advised the amount the Minister will get for the bank is reasonable in the circumstances. It is certainly better by a measure of about 30% on what was on offer from the Bank of Ireland last year. I am told the share price is a reasonable one. Others have mentioned the matter of the terms and conditions of employment. It would be useful if the Minister expanded on what he said in his speech this morning.

I thank the Minister for making available a note of the conditions under which the Bank is being sold. I notice page 5 of the conditions states the bank guarantees the employment rights of the management and employees of ICC, including amendments, envisaged by the transformation and flexibility agreement, will be fully protected following the completion of the offer. It would be useful in so far as the Minster is able to do so, if he would spell that out more. Others have referred to the experience in Ulster Bank. We all know that when Royal Bank of Scotland purchased National Westminster Bank a year ago, it guaranteed at that stage that the terms and conditions of the work force would be guaranteed into the future, but we know what is currently happening, which is nothing of the kind. Many employees are being asked to re-apply for their jobs using a salary scale that is 20% to 30% lower than what they were on heretofore. I do not understand how that could possibly be considered to be maintaining the terms and conditions of employment. It has always been the stated position of the Minster that in any disposal the terms and conditions of the work force would be guaranteed. He should spell out the position in clear terms to ensure that we will not be in a position in six months or in a year of having to ask, "What on earth happened?".

Deputy Noonan pointed out that the resolution before us is effectively conditional. I ask for more clarity from the Minister in that regard. On the face of it, this exercise appears to allow the Bank of Scotland a number of different exits. Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that the due diligence exercise has been done and the Bank of Scotland has been satisfied on the portfolio and business of the ICC Bank and the terms and conditions set out are only a belt and braces exercise and do not amount to much.

Others mentioned what is happening in the banking sector generally. I was interested to hear the Minister say that he hoped the purchase of the ICC Bank by the Bank of Scotland would lead to more competition. I cannot understand how that would be the case. We were talking about the acquisition of one bank by another, which is not currently in the SME business. Why that would lead to a greater degree of competition is beyond me. If there is some reason to expect that would be the case, perhaps the Minster would spell it out. What we are witnessing in the banking sector here is a severe reduction in the number of players. On the day the Minister announced the disposal of ICC, he announced the disposal of TSB, which will be merged with Irish Life and Permanent. What were three separate entities, Irish Life, TSB and Irish Permanent, two or three years ago, is now only one. There is far less competition in the banking sector than there was in the very recent past and there is every indication that this process of consolidation will continue. I fully understand that there is not a great deal the State can do about this. The Minister set up a review group last year, which reported during the summer and made some recommendations. Perhaps he might tell us the position regarding those recommendations. That review group's report was strong on analysis but not all that strong in terms of recommendations. In so far as there were recommendations in relation to the mergers Act, perhaps the Minister would indicate exactly where he is going with that and whether legislation will be introduced in respect of those recommendations in the near future.

There was some comment about the ESOP or ESOT, I would like the Minister to spell out that position more. Is it the intention of the Bank to run ICC as a wholly owned subsidiary, will it be a separate business entity? The conditions with which we have been furnished appear to suggest that will be the case. If that is so, why is it necessary to swap shares in the ICC for Bank of Scotland shares? If such a swap goes ahead, can we assume it will be a swap for an equal value of Bank of Scotland shares? I take it we are not talking in terms of 5% of Bank of Scotland shares but the same capital value of Bank of Scotland shares.

I say a few words of appreciation for the work that ICC has done over the years. It has performed a useful strategic role. The stated intention of Bank of Scotland is to continue to service the SME sector and I hope that will prove to be the case. I wish the management and staff of the bank well in this new entity. They served us well within the State structure and I hope they enjoy success. I wish the same for the customers and shareholders of the new bank.

May I speak?

There is no provision in the order for a reply but there are minutes remaining, if the House is agreeable to hearing the Minister.

We like to listen to him.

Deputy Noonan asked about a higher bid. If a higher bid is received by 16 January 2001, and it would have to be 10% higher than the existing Bank of Scotland bid, I will come back to the House with a new motion. This deal is being done under the takeover panel rules.

The precise question is whether the Minister is obliged to accept the higher bid or whether Bank of Scotland will be allowed back in.

If there are higher bids – that is how things happen under stock exchange rules – I will come before the House with the highest bid.

The Minister is allowed to do that?

Yes. Deputy Noonan and others asked about the ESOT. The ESOT will acquire the Bank of Scotland shares. Without going into the details of the ESOT, which are quite complicated, the shares go into the trust and are then subject to the rules of the trust. The way ESOTs are set up, it is a considerable time before employees can cash those shares. The same applies to Aer Lingus and certainly to the Eircom ESOT. This is a continuation of that and we have dealt with the tax rules of ESOTs on Committee Stages of Finance Bills. Under ESOT rules, it goes into the ESOT and stays there for some time. That is how ESOTs were negotiated some time ago and, irrespective of whether it is a good principle, it has been agreed by various parties and successive Governments. That is how it is done.

Deputy Burke and others raised the issue of the continuing business ethos of the ICC. The ICC traditionally lent to small and medium sized enterprises but, to be frank, in the last sale process many banking institutions looked at the ICC before it narrowed down to six, then three, then one – Bank of Ireland. Most institutions which looked at the ICC realised it had broadened its vision with the changing environment and gone into areas in which other banks were involved. It was not necessarily confined to small and medium sized enterprises.

Deputy Barrett asked about the staff of the bank. There are two different institutions involved. I understand Ulster Bank's parent company is the Royal Bank of Scotland, which is different from this body, the Bank of Scotland. The Bank of Scotland is buying ICC while the Royal Bank of Scotland is Ulster Bank's parent company, so it is not the same organisation. However, the point is still relevant. Deputy Barrett referred to a Bill I brought before the House in this regard, but that was a report I asked the banking review group to produce. The group was made up of representatives from my Department, the Central Bank and others and I published its report some months ago; it is not a Bill.

The report considered various issues in the banking area and it referred to matters raised by Deputy Barrett, such as bank closures and rationalisation in the sector. As I pointed out in answer to parliamentary questions, when I set up the group I said we are likely to wake up some morning in five or six years and find that no bank is Irish owned. One could make that case today, as the two major banks are mostly owned by fund managers who could be anywhere in the world. One could say legitimately that no bank in Ireland could be regarded as an Irish bank.

However, it became evident when the Bank of Ireland sought a deal with a bank in the UK that we regard the main banks, Allied Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland, as Irish-managed and controlled. Although they are completely independent, the Government may feel they are "our" banks. One of the reasons we set up this group is in case a Minister for Finance in five or six years' time wonders how it happened that no bank is owned by an Irish group. One of the group's recommendations, which will necessitate changes in legislation, is that some reserve functions are given to the Minister for Finance regarding bank takeovers and, as they relate to competition, I propose to transfer them to the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The Minister for Finance and the Government of the day have no input into what a bank does, nor should they. Nobody is proposing they should, but banks have wider responsibilities than just making profits for their shareholders.

Deputy Enright said that a few years ago Fóir Teoranta was a lender of last resort. I am not sure if people would regard ICC as a lender of last resort but as it was a State-owned bank people may have felt they got a greater crack of the whip there. I recently launched a book at ICC headquarters written by Frank Casey, who was chief executive of ICC for 22 years and worked for the bank for 42 years. He has written a book on ICC which shows that ICC was the first lender to some of the first Irish-owned manufacturing operations, some of which still exist. ICC had a great input into development of the Irish industrial base and Deputies Enright, Barrett and others may wonder who is going to take up that mantle now.

The way banking has changed, with Europeanisation, if not globalisation, of the banking market, there is enough competition to cater for all interests. Up to about seven years ago the major banking players, Allied Irish Bank, Bank of Ireland and Ulster Bank, concentrated mainly on small businesses. However, when others got into that market they began what are now very active operations in this area. This was because other operators moved in and took business in that sector. Nowadays the banks come out to one's house if one has a small business idea and one can then get the money. I was in business long enough to remember when they would not give you the time of day. We hope that type of competition continues, thanks to small operators like the TSB, the National Irish Bank and some of the building societies getting into the market. The banks are after every type of business and we hope that continues so we do not go back to the old days.

Deputy McDowell asked about the conditions of employment. As compliments have already been paid to the chairman, Mr. Phil Flynn, Members can take it he was instrumental in ensuring guarantees of employment were copperfastened with any potential purchaser. It has been copperfastened with the Bank of Scotland, which has no out in this deal. It made an offer under the takeover rules and its offer is in the document presented to Deputies yesterday. Deputy McDowell mentioned the review group and the general consolidation in the banking sector. By pure chance, on the same day the ICC offer came before me, the TSB was lucky enough to conclude a deal with Irish Life & Permanent, which we will discuss next term. There is major consolidation in the financial area and, as I have said on a number of occasions, I am afraid there is no place for small banking-type operations in the future. I am glad the ICC has got such a well-known and strong organisation such as the Bank of Scotland to become part of their operation. It is intended that the operation in Ireland will be a subsidiary of the Bank of Scotland but then it will be up to the Bank of Scotland in future to decide whatever they want to do in that regard.

Question put and declared carried.
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