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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 14 Feb 2001

Vol. 530 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Nursing Home Subventions: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Gay Mitchell on Tuesday, 13 February 2001:
"That Dáil Éireann–
condemns the prolonged and systematic improper extraction of money from vulnerable old people in need of nursing home care and from their families by health boards, with the full knowledge of the Department of Health and Children, and
notes the flouting of legislation enacted by the Oireachtas and the trauma and distress caused to families by such attitudes which have been starkly outlined in the Ombudsman's report on nursing home subventions, and the failure of the Department of Health and Children to respond promptly and fully to the Ombudsman,
and calls on the Minister for Health and Children to take immediate steps to set up a mechanism to ensure that compensation is promptly paid in cases where people were unlawfully treated during the years 1988 to 1999.".
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to substitute the following:
"–welcomes the Report of the Ombudsman on the Nursing Home Subvention Scheme,
–acknowledges the serious concerns highlighted in the Report in relation to the operation of the Scheme from its inception in 1993 and the clear implications for the ongoing operation of the Scheme, the relationship between the Legislature and the Executive,
and commends the Government for the decision to pay all outstanding arrears due to people adversely affected by the operation of the Scheme and for the range of initiatives taken in relation to services for older people since the Government came to office including the measures taken in relation to the Nursing Home Subvention Scheme.".
–(Minister for Health and Children).

I welcome and support this motion which has been tabled by Fine Gael. The report of the investigation by the Ombudsman into the abuse of elderly people sets out an official and institutional abuse of vulnerable, eld erly people which is truly shocking. These people, many of them sick and all of them elderly, were conned out of money by health boards with the collusion of the Department of Health and Children. The report has forced the Minister for Health and Children to tell the House what he is doing about it. He has provided money and has made some modest proposals but his response last night did not go far enough. What we are dealing with is not just a question about money that is owed, it also concerns a system that was designed to protect the elderly being bent and distorted into a lever to exploit them. When a young man who robs an old aged pensioner to feed a drug habit is caught and put in jail we consider it, rightly, to be a crime deserving punishment. If an old age pensioner is conned out of money by an official in a secure job but who is working under pressure, what should we call it? The Ombudsman described these actions by the health boards and the Department as fundamentally wrong. He also says that they constituted significant maladministration.

In his summation, the Ombudsman outlined the two functions that need to be met on an issue of such seriousness. First, there is an onus on the Government to provide public services and to meet people's needs. The other requirement is to protect people against the actions of a Government when it fails to fulfil its responsibilities, as happened in this instance. He rightly set the context within the ambit of a human rights framework, which is being generally constructed internationally to protect the rights of many different groups in society. Yet that overarching concern has not been addressed by this Government. We heard the Minister say that he is coughing up the money but he is silent when it comes to addressing the safeguards needed to protect elderly people from abuse, whether from official quarters or not. A charter of rights for older people underpinned by legislation is what is needed now and is what this Government should be undertaking publicly to deliver.

The Minister mentioned in his speech that public welfare homes will now come under the independent inspectorate being set up along with the other duties of the health board inspectorate, and that is welcome. For too long these public facilities were outside the loop when it came to any inspection system and there was clearly a conflict of interest when it came to a health board inspecting private facilities that provided health board contract beds. He did not, however, deal with the issue of making secondary legislation properly accountable to the Oireachtas. The report states that the Dáil and Seanad appear to have no effective mechanisms for vetting regulations which flow from primary legislation. We know that is the case and every time I have raised this issue when legislation is being processed through Committee Stage, this Minister and his predecessor have blocked any such proposal of mine to make regulations accountable.

It is always uncomfortable for a Government to give up any power that it has but it is unconscionable not to do so after such an expose by the Ombudsman of the deficiencies of our democracy. Yet the Minister is silent on this issue, as is his Government. This is simply not good enough. If the lessons are to be learned, then the necessity for checks and balances must also be acknowledged. Shifting this report off to the Committee on Health and Children is all very well, but I do not believe the Minister can get off the hook that easily. His bland disposal of the Ombudsman's central criticism of the way the Oireachtas operates and its failure to protect the rights of our citizens is simply unacceptable. It is insulting to talk about performance management indicators for health boards as if somehow they will ensure equality and the safeguarding of people's entitlements and rights.

The Government should also be making a clear commitment to creating a much more flexible system of care supports for older people. Care requirements should determine funding and not, as currently pertains, the other way around. There is at present an over-reliance on private nursing home care to meet the long-term needs of older people. The subvention arrangements ensure that over-dependence. Financial and other supports should enable older people to stay at home as well as access nursing home care when they need it. Indeed, there should be a built-in bias towards home care solutions and home care supports.

The Minister referred briefly to inequity of treatment, yet he must be aware of the gross inequity that occurs in different parts of the country, between people on different incomes and, indeed, the differences in accessing services provided by physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech therapists and the like by elderly people. These are among the many issues that need to be addressed if we are to provide for those of us who are elderly now and for the ever increasing number of elderly people into the future.

Government policy is to accord independence and dignity to older people but the record shows that in relation to an important part of care for the elderly, health boards and the Department of Health and Children were culpable when they failed to protect the dignity, independence and rights of people who, in many cases, were suffering ill-health and who, in all cases, were elderly and vulnerable. I remember families coming to me during those years who were driven to distraction from worry because of the strictures laid down by health boards before their elderly relative could access the care he or she needed. These people were forced to undergo very stressful and unfair pressures by health boards even though the Department of Health and Children and the Attorney General at the time had received expert advice that such practices would be found to be illegal if challenged in the courts. This is a disgracefully shabby saga.

The Ombudsman has done us and the public a great service in the preparation of this report but the Minister for Health and Children cannot expect us to believe that his response, as articulated yesterday, is an adequate one nor is it the case that this Government, as a whole, is responding authoritatively to the requirements set out in this report. The Committee on Health and Children will consider this report, and I welcome that. However, I do not wish to go along with what is clearly an attempt by the Minister for Health and Children to try to simply off-load this report with its many awkward questions and serious challenges without comment.

Just spending money is too easy an option, particularly for a Minister for Health and Children who has so much money he does not know what to do with it and spends it on sponsoring snooker competitions. Throwing money at a problem is the hallmark of this Government and this Minister. We have a health system in crisis and have almost 30,000 on hospital waiting lists, most of whom are experiencing longer waiting times than they might have done a year ago. There is clearly no fewer a number on these waiting lists than when this Government took office. There is very little difference in the numbers even though this Government was elected on the promise that it would tackle waiting lists. The Government is spending a lot more money on health about which there is no doubt, although in terms of percentage of GDP, we are still below the EU average. Despite the funding, sadly there is no evidence that this Government has a clue about how it should deal with the serious deficiencies and the gross inequities which characterise the health care service. In this regard, last night the Minister confirmed the suspicion that he has also failed to meet the challenge set out in the report of the Ombudsman.

I would like to refer to another report of relevance to this issue on the care for the elderly scheme operated by the health boards. It is again a very startling report in terms of outlining the experiences people have. While we, as a society, rightly say that elderly people should not be forced into institutional care, that, of necessity, places an onus on us to ensure that home is a safe, good and healthy place for an older person. Some of the key findings in the report are that fuel poverty in Ireland is among the highest in Europe for elderly people, housing standards are among the lowest and morbidity and mortality figures are among the most serious in Europe as a result of poor housing conditions. These issues need to be addressed and are part and parcel of the issues examined indirectly by the Ombudsman. The issues directly examined by the Ombudsman are, in a sense, symptomatic of larger questions relating to the care of the elderly.

I would like to share time with Deputies Martin Brady, Fleming, Dennehy, Michael Kitt and Roche.

I congratulate the Ombudsman for highlighting these very important facts regarding nursing home subventions. For the past year and a half, since joining the Southern Health Board I have been beating this drum on the shameful practice of deducting entire pensions from people and not providing enough subvention. Older people did not have money to get their hair done or to have essential work done. The practice engaged in by the health boards in the past was shameful.

Successive Governments have failed to act on this breach of the regulations but at least this Government is rectifying the matter. I congratulate the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, for having the decency, last night, to apologise to those who were affected.

It is a big joke.

I welcome the decision he has made in relation to the Ombudsman's report and that he has allocated £4 million to different health boards in the past year to pay off arrears. All the arrears in the Southern Health Board have been paid except in eight cases where there are legal implications. We are proactive in advising family members that there is no legal obligation to contribute to the nursing home care of a relative who qualifies for subvention. Since July 2000 I brought this matter to the attention of our health board where we produced a leaflet setting out the guidelines for nursing home subvention. The Southern Health Board spent £5.5 million last year in nursing home care and subvention. That is not enough. I hope more moneys can be made available to health boards for nursing home care. Deputy Dennehy and I have been active in the Southern Health Board on community care matters and on the nursing home subvention. I welcome the extra £20 million provided for in the budget. We had long discussions at our parliamentary party meeting where we managed to convince the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, to make extra money available for care of the elderly.

We must support nursing home subvention increases, provide more hospital beds and ensure more community supports are put in place. At all times we must treat people with dignity and respect. I commend the Minister, Deputy Martin, on taking so many initiatives since taking office, and ensuring a doubling of health allocation since 1997. Much has been done but much more needs to be done. Irrespective of what party is in Government there will always be a need for increased funding for health services. I hope much more will be achieved in the next couple of years.

We have asked the Minister to look at the question of people who own their own properties and the assessments being carried out. It is unfair that under the regulations health boards can assess a person's principal residence if they are in nursing home care and deduct so much money by way of rental. Most of those houses are not let and are vacant until the person returns from the nursing home, if they ever return.

I had some appalling cases last year where people entitled to subvention were not told they did not have to contribute. I have had cases where money put away for a burial had to be used to top up the subvention. In another case a lady had to live on £29 per week. That had to be rectified by an enhanced subvention. I have no doubt every Member can speak of different situations in respect of nursing home subvention. My message, even as a Government backbencher, is simple. We must do more for the elderly and ensure money is available.

The Ombudsman's lengthy and well-researched and detailed report on this matter must be welcomed despite the many questions it raises. I have received representations from my constituents in Dublin North East, one of which was from Liam Clines who was confronted by the health board. When this happened I contacted Deputy O'Flynn in Cork. The person involved was asked how many children he had and was told their earnings would have to be assessed. That is wrong. It was incorrect of the health boards to accept this money whether it was given voluntarily or involuntarily in the knowledge that the request was invalid. The Health Act, 1990, did not specify that that should happen. I cannot understand why a person who has paid taxes and worked all his life and goes into a nursing home must be subject to a decision by a health board executive that his adult children should pay for his keep. That is wrong and has to be rectified. Will those who have paid up be reimbursed? They should be. That is a question for the Minister and the Department.

The questions raised about the ability of the executive branch and the public administrators of this country to carry out the distinct stated wishes and intentions of the Oireachtas are serious. The Oireachtas has not ever discussed this matter. A clear indication was not given by the Oireachtas at any time that this should happen.

I welcome the wide ranging assurances given by the Minister for Health and Children that the issues raised in the Ombudsman's report will be remedied as quickly as possible. It is not an exaggeration to state that what was done to many citizens, some of whom are dead, and to their families amounted to a serious wrong which arose from abuse of office by many public servants. There are many tribunals investigating various matters but the exploitation of the elderly is a most serious matter. It must be investigated and we must get answers from the Minister. The resolution is simple. We must acknowledge the wrongs done and rectify them. Those who paid money to the health boards must be reimbursed.

There are two people to whom the Oireachtas owes a debt of gratitude, the Ombudsman for producing his report and the Minister for Health and Children. As soon as the report was presented to him the Minister took immediate steps to rectify the situation. He can do no more than to immediately repay all outstanding arrears to those who were adversely affected. Even though the system inflicted wrong by taking money from families when it should not have done so, the Ombudsman legislation is working well in that he is able to identify these problems. The job of the Ombdusman is to protect citizens, to provide redress where there have been inadequacies and to promote high standards in public administration. We are not concerned with low standards in this House or in the actions of the Minister or the Ombudsman, but in public administration. Thank God for the Ombudsman and that he was able to make this report following a series of complaints.

Following my experience with the Ombudsman's office I make a plea for a major increase in the funding allocated to him. Shortly after I became a Member of the House I saw his first annual report and was shocked to see the number of complaints from County Laois. It was out of all proportion to those received from most neighbouring counties. On investigation I discovered that Portlaoise is the only provincial town outside the major cities where he holds a monthly clinic. It illustrates the latent need in every county for the Ombudsman's office to investigate and follow up on complaints.

I have received representations from various constituents since this issue was highlighted asking what can be done in terms of getting the matter redressed. As a Government backbencher I am pleased to advise them of the good news – it does not often happen – that the Government is to ensure that all outstanding arrears are paid in full. When reports like this are presented the official advice is to contest them in the courts, including the European Court, and to then harass those involved for years with a view to wearing them down. That is how the State operated in similar cases. The Minister has done an outstanding service to the Oireachtas in showing that we are responding to the needs of the people when a report is presented to us. I hope the Government will adopt a similar attitude in future cases where the institutions of the State inflict wrongs on citizens.

Some people attending my clinics are the surviving family members of people who have unfortunately passed away. They had to contribute excessively towards the subvention costs of their parents. While they were happy to do so, it was wrong that they were penalised financially and made to do it. The health boards played on the goodwill of sons and daughters and other family members. I hope a mechanism will be put in place to repay moneys to those in nursing homes and to the surviving family members of the deceased. Specific provision should be made to ensure that repayments are made to the next of kin.

There are over 6,000 people in nursing homes throughout the country. The cost of this scheme has increased almost tenfold, from £4 million to almost £40 million, in the seven or eight years since it was introduced. I am pleased to note that from 1 April the subvention will be increased by 25%, from £70 to £90, from £95 to £120 and from £120 to £150. Unfortunately, it is not enough. While I am happy with the increase, a further 25% increase would be very welcome.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this timely and important report from the Ombudsman. Private nursing homes are mushrooming around the country because of the failure by the State to provide anything like the number of welfare beds for the elderly. This failure has resulted in much hardship for the elderly and their relatives. The Government is now addressing their needs and providing for them. For example, in my area the Southern Health Board has launched a major action plan, Ageing with Confidence, and money is being provided to fund it. It is badly needed. The elderly and carers made a critical input to the plan. It will provide for extra badly needed beds and will allow for greater support for community care. Those in the health business involved in local care argue that if there was a sufficient number of welfare beds there would be no need for so many nursing homes. The Southern Health Board plan must be funded independently of the nursing home activities.

In addition to the dependence on private nursing homes, a large proportion of acute or semi-acute beds have been tied up in what the medical profession calls inappropriate uses. Public representatives must defend the rights of the elderly and the use of these beds by them is caused by the non-availability of alternative facilities. If officialdom had its way in the early 1980s all of the district hospitals, which now provide the mainstay care for the elderly, would have been closed at that time. In view of the unsatisfactory bed situation I suspect that many elderly people have been prematurely discharged from hospital.

Private nursing homes have filled a need and they provide an excellent service. The difficulties identified by the Ombudsman are not their fault. When enacted in 1991, the nursing homes legislation was a major breakthrough in terms of ensuring that a new element of service would be provided to the elderly. Until then no subsidy was available to people and some faced massive hardship in trying to cope with the care of their elderly parents or other relatives. Unfortunately, people have almost slipped back into the same position because of rising costs.

The 1991 legislation was well drafted but implementing the large number of regulations it contains is causing problems. The former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Cowen, introduced an amendment removing the need for health boards to assess the means of family members. That was the greatest stumbling block to addressing the difficulties in this area. However, successive Ministers have refused to amend the regulations, especially the regulation covering the three rates of subvention available. That is critical to the great majority of applicants.

Ministers for Health from the three major parties have been lobbied to make changes by public interests, including the groups of health board chairpersons, but they refused to do so. I was a member of a delegation that met the former Minister for Health, Deputy Noonan, but we got no response to a request for an increased subvention. I am proud that my constituency colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, is dealing with this grossly unfair situation in an even handed manner. He is increasing the subvention but is also examining the other regulations. I discussed the situation with the former Minister, Deputy Noonan, but it has fallen to my colleague to anticipate and address a number of issues raised by the Ombudsman.

Taking account of the principal residence of an applicant for assessment purposes is unfair and offensive. It represents a gross intrusion into family privacy. The logic applied is based on dealing with those who were ignored in institutions but cared for by the State and who, on death, left cash to their families. The scheme must become demand led. The Southern Health Board has adopted my proposal on that. If we do not take this approach the problems identified by the Ombudsman will recur.

I welcome the report of the Ombudsman on nursing home subventions and share the concerns of my colleagues at its findings. I commend the Government for the decision to pay all outstanding arrears due to those affected. The Government has taken a number of initiatives in relation to services for older people. Funding for the development of services for older people has increased from £10 million in 1997 to an additional £36 million in 2000. In 2001, an additional £57 million will be provided. I commend the Minister on the fact that subvention rates will be increased from next April. The maximum of £120 will be increased to £150. One of the difficulties is that whether the payment is £120 or £150, plus a non-contributory old age pension, there is still a shortfall in some nursing homes. There is an inconsistency whereby there is an enhanced subvention of up to £200, or more than £200 in some health boards, which does not apply in the Western Health Board region.

I wish to refer to article 8.2 and the pocket money provision. Six of the eight health boards apply the regulations incorrectly. The Western Health Board received £750,000 as part of a £4 million allocation to meet the arrears payments. The Minister was wise to do this. There is also the bigger issue of the assessment of sons' and daughters' ability to contribute towards the cost of their parents' nursing home care. I was pleased when the previous Minister discontinued that requirement on 1 January 1999. In assessing the elderly for medical cards or other social welfare benefits, there is no consideration of the financial circumstances of adult sons or daughters of the applicants.

In the interest of fairness and natural justice, the Minister has stated that money should be paid to those adversely affected by this provision. I understand £6 million is the estimated cost of these payments and I commend the Minister for the decision in this regard. It certainly should be Government policy to maintain older people at home with dignity and independence and the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrat Government is doing so. We have already improved the free schemes for the elderly. We have introduced schemes for alarms and security devices. We have increased the carer's allowance and introduced a new carer's benefit and a new carer's leave Bill, which are important issues. Another important issue is the number of elderly people living in poor housing conditions.

The health boards and local authorities throughout the country have a responsibility to improve the schemes for the elderly. In his November 2000 report, the Comptroller and Auditor General spoke specifically about the special housing aid for the elderly. He stressed strongly that we should review and strengthen that particular scheme. The last paragraph on the evaluation of the scheme reads:

A significant proportion of elderly people are thought to require residential care due to poor housing conditions. In the light of the cost of hospital beds and long stay residential places, the scheme would appear to represent good value for money if it succeeds in creating conditions which facilitate elderly persons living in their own homes for as long as possible.

That is a significant statement by the Comptroller and Auditor General where he states that there must be residential care and residential places for elderly people. Proper housing conditions are one means of resolving this problem and I hope the local authorities and health boards will take on board his views.

This report makes extraordinarily disturbing reading because it illustrates an attitude of mind, a mentality which is very difficult to get around within parts of our public administration. In my view two issues illustrate the worst kind of maladministration which are highlighted in this excellent report by the Ombudsman. The first issue relates to the mean spirited manner in which the pocket money provisions were dealt with. It is worth reminding ourselves that article 8.2 of the regulation is not complex to read, it is very clearcut. On reading the report, it is clear that an institutional interpretation of the most negative sort was put on this straightforward provision. The interpretation by six health boards is mean spirited and dishonest in equal measure. It is, frankly, a disgrace.

The Ombudsman has done us all a considerable service by bringing into public focus the manner in which simple regulations and laws, which are passed with the permission of this House, are being interpreted in the darkest recesses of some parts of our public administration system. What is even more frightening about the Ombudsman's findings in relation to the pocket money provisions is that when the manner in which these provisions were being interpreted was discovered, £4 million was made available as a once-off payment in order to provide compensation to people. A portion of that compensation was, in fact, pocketed or used elsewhere by the health boards. They have sought to cover their dishonour by saying they spent the portion on other services for the elderly, but that is not the point. The point is that the Minister of the day made funding available to public servants and those public servants took it upon themselves to abuse that particular payment and to use it in a way which was improper, inappropriate and which represented the grossest form of maladministration. We should go beyond simply recording the fact that that happened. It is time to name and shame people.

The second issue with which the Ombudsman deals is that of family assessment. Members on all sides of the House will have, from time to time, dealt with correspondence on this issue. The time available to me on this matter is very short but I believe the Ombudsman very eloquently represents in his report the plight of families faced with this issue. If one reads the correspondence which was reproduced, it is extraordinary that public servants in caring institutions should have acted in this manner. On page 23, there is a letter from a complainant regarding the North Eastern Health Board. Shame on the officials involved in that case. There was no excuse for their deliberate and perverse misinterpretation. There is a letter dated 24 October 1999 from the Southern Health Board to the Department of Health and Children. Again shame on the officials involved.

When public administrators receive regulations or instructions from this House, or through the Ministers appointed by this House, they have not just a moral responsibility but a civic responsibility to deliver on those regulations in a way which is client friendly and which recognises the true intentions of Dáil Éireann and of the administration at central Government level. What has happened in a number of these cases is that the regulations have been deliberately, wantonly and in a mean spirited way misrepresented and misapplied. I believe we should go further. One of my difficulties with the Ombudsman legislation, good as it is – I have the honour of being the first Irish citizen to be a member of the International Ombudsman Institute – is that it does not actually lay blame. There is an institutional tradition in this House, when faced with maladministration such as this, to do the obvious thing and go for the Minister's throat. It is time to stop that tradition. It is time to introduce a tradition which recognises that, within the administration, there is personal responsibility for the manner in which each and every public servant applies the law of the land and the regulations.

What we see in this report is an absolutely dramatic example of Sir Humphreyism at its very worst. When mandarins get a bee in their bonnet, they decide they know better. They decide they are superior to this House and that they are the State. A clear message should go out from this House that they are not the State. They are the servants of the people. The people are their clients, the people are their employers and the people through their taxes employ them. They have a moral and civic responsibility to serve the people.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Neville, McGrath, Farrelly and Ulick Burke.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

This is probably the greatest scandal ever caused by the State. People talk about the abuse of the elderly. If thugs in the street robbed old people in their homes, newspapers would call for them to be put in jail. Now the offender is not a thug but the State. The State hurt these old people and their families.

I am aware of one such case. The person applied for subvention but, because of the harassment of the health board in seeking family members' P60s, tax assessments and what the person's sons and daughters were earning abroad, the man did not go into the State home. He died a lonely old man, alone in his house. He was found dead. That is an outrage and somebody should pay for what happened.

I congratulate the Ombudsman and his office. I listened to the Fianna Fáil Members complimenting the Minister. I say "shame on this Minister and on all previous Ministers who allowed this to happen". I say "well done" to the Ombudsman. I urge the Taoiseach, the Government, the new leader of Fine Gael and the new Front Bench after its appointment tomorrow to give a commitment that the Ombudsman and his office will be given the proper powers, money and staff to deal with further cases of abuse in the State.

I agree with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health and Children that the Civil Service is out of control. The Civil Service dictates policy, rather than the politicians and Ministers. The reason is that when Fine Gael is in Opposition it says one thing and when it is in Government it says something else; Fianna Fáil does the same. We have taken too many powers from this House and handed them to the National Roads Authority and other State agencies. That is wrong.

It is wrong that the day I arrived to this House, having been elected by the people of County Mayo, the Minister's reply to my parliamentary question was that the chief executive of the Western Health Board would respond to me. She would respond, about six months later. That is not good enough. These people are not answerable to anybody and we have allowed that to happen. When I put down a parliamentary question, regardless of whether it relates to the chief executive of the health board or of the county council, I should get a reply and the Ceann Comhairle should protect me, as a Member of the House, and ensure I get that reply.

We are discussing the abuse of the elderly. We should be ashamed as public representatives and as a nation that we let old people die in their homes because their family members did not have money, did not want to be assessed or because the old person did not want that family member to be assessed. They felt it was not their place to ask it. They preferred to die lonely and at home rather than have a son in England or a daughter in Cork, who had their own problems and mortgages to pay, asked by a chief executive or an official from the health board for their P60 and other private information. It is outrageous and wrong and the people responsible should be dealt with. I agree with a previous speaker that if this had been done by a senior or junior Minister, there would have been calls for tribunals and for the Minister's resignation. However, this involves the Civil Service.

Recently there was controversy about officials double jobbing. It died very quickly. There were tribunals when politicians received payments but when allegations were made about officials, they were kept under wraps. Sometimes the media focus their attention on the wrong people and sometimes they focus on the right people. On this occasion, the Ombudsman did well and he should be complimented. He should also be assisted and given whatever powers he needs because the public has lost faith in me, in other public representatives and in the system.

The public is right. I was elected to a county council. It has 31 members but only six really count because the rest are spokesmen for the officials. It is time the councillors realised they were elected by the people and not by the officials. I am not against officials. There are some good officials who do a good job and are compassionate, kind and decent. However, other officials think they are gods and that they are above me, the Minister and the law. That is because they are protected by the State, the unions and when they go to court. Last year I was threatened by my county council. I told the council to bring me to the High Court. The difference between the council and me is that if I go to court, I must pay for it. There is nobody to protect me whereas officials are protected by the taxpayers' money.

A recent report by the national council on ageing and older people stated that 12,000 elderly people in this State suffer abuse. That is shameful. There was nothing in the report, however, about the abuse that happened to older people and their families with regard to the nursing home subventions. Money was taken from people who could not afford it. The health boards insisted on the money and threatened that if the information they required was not forthcoming, there would be no subvention. What kind of State is this? Has anything been done about it?

The Minister says the money will be repaid. What about the old man who died in his home? What about the family members who are now dead and will not gain from it? It is shameful and wrong. Last week the Minister of State had a go at me in the local newspaper about the special housing aid for the elderly. There is nothing wrong with that. The special housing aid for the elderly scheme is administered by the health boards. The health board in my constituency is demanding large subscriptions from old people under the scheme. Down the road there will be a further investigation into the collection of money from old people under this scheme. It should not be collected from them. The Minister should abolish the scheme where health boards are seeking contributions. They are threatening these people and that is wrong. The problem was identified in a report published today and the Minister must deal with it.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion and congratulate our spokesperson, Deputy Gay Mitchell, for putting it before the House. The Department and the health boards systematically and improperly extracted moneys from elderly people who had spent their lives contributing to the State. It happened at the most vulnerable time in their lives, when they were in nursing homes. That was illegal. It caused extreme stress to the elderly and their families and was an affront to the dignity of the people involved.

I congratulate the Ombudsman on identifying this issue in his report. The Minister for Health and Children has a duty and responsibility to immediately set up systems to ensure that full compensation is paid in all cases where people or their families were unlawfully treated. It was unfair that the elderly, at the end of their days, saw their life savings taken illegally. There is no doubt that this ranks with any of the scandals which have been exposed in recent times.

The approach to administering the nursing home subvention scheme must cause concern to all right thinking people. The report refers to the unacceptable practices of making regulations containing provisions which were likely to be invalid. In at least one instance the likely invalidity had probably been known in advance.

Under the Nursing Homes Act, elderly people are entitled to nursing home care. The public system does not cater for this. In fact, there appears to be a policy of withdrawal from the public sys tem of supporting the elderly in community care. I found it extremely frustrating to see families who had little means being pressurised into paying for nursing home care for their loved ones when they were no longer able to survive in their home environment.

The Government failed to fund adequately the nursing home subvention service. In the Mid-Western Health Board the ceiling for nursing home subvention is £120. In other health boards there is flexibility at this level. On several occasions I have raised with health board officials the failure of the Mid-Western Health Board to recognise special situations where there is hardship. I am familiar with a case in which a pensioner in receipt of £80 per week whose husband is in a nursing home is obliged to pay £40 per week, in addition to the man's pension, to top up the subvention. The woman is, therefore, forced to live on £40 per week and the health board was unable to assist her, in spite of representations made on her behalf. The community care section was of the view that the matter should be dealt with by the nursing home subvention section but the nursing home subvention section stated that the maximum pension was being received. The woman falls between two stools as a result of which she has a disgraceful standard of living.

The nursing home regulations facilitated nursing home residents by disregarding one-fifth of their old age pensions. This sum was not to be treated as means but was to be provided as pocket money to the applicants. The Department of Health and Children and the health boards ignored this legal device which was intended to give some semblance of dignity to elderly people.

The Ombudsman clearly states that the 1990 Act does not put the onus on adult children to pay for their parents' nursing home care. The practice of taking into account the income of adult children created deep divisions in some families and great distress for elderly people. I am aware of situations in which nursing home subventions were denied because one member of a family refused to co-operate with other members in the disclosure of income. The system operated by the health boards and the Department has divided families and illegally placed children in the embarrassing position of having to reveal their circumstances to their siblings. In many cases, it has deprived elderly people of adequate care and has forced them to witness disagreement arising among their children.

The issue of family obligations and children's duties towards their parents was raised by Ann O'Loughlin of the Irish Association of Social Workers on RTE radio in September 1993. She stated that there was a great difference between families coming to terms with their own beliefs about family responsibility and their obligations towards parents and being forced in a quasi-legal manner by the regulations to contribute to their parents' nursing home care. She and her colleagues witnessed the outcome of this type of means testing which resulted in unholy rows and intensified conflict among family members who had different ideas about duties and responsibilities. Ms O'Loughlin also pointed out that many elderly people did not wish to be forced into any level of dependency on their adult children. John Boland, in an article in The Sunday Press in the same year, stated that not only could parents be refused a grant if it was decided that their children's means were too high but that any son or daughter could be informed of the weekly amount the State believed he or she should contribute to the upkeep of a parent. This, Mr. Boland observed, smacked of big brother tactics.

In 1995, the Western Health Board and the Southern Health Board separately obtained legal advice to the effect that the approach to the pocket money issue proposed by the Department of Health and Children was incorrect. In November 1997, the Office of the Attorney General, in response to queries from the Department, commissioned legal advice from an independent senior counsel on the operation of the pocket money provision. The Department had already conceded that its original advice to the boards was incorrect and the senior counsel felt that there was a question of liability for the payment of arrears. He advised that any person who, as a result of misrepresentation of the regulations, had received a lower level of subvention than would otherwise have been the case, would be entitled to be compensated accordingly.

Society is judged on how it cares for its old and vulnerable citizens. Ireland's track record in regard to the elderly and people with disabilities is disgraceful. ALONE estimates that 88,000 Irish people over 65 years of age spent Christmas Day on their own. That is a scandalous indictment of our society. Government services must lead the way in showing respect and support for older people.

I welcome the opportunity to debate the Ombudsman's report although I regret our time is limited. Perhaps the Minister would investigate the possibility of providing Government time to discuss the report at greater length at a future stage. It is important that its content is teased out in detail in order that a similar situation will not arise again.

I compliment the Ombudsman on his report and I compliment Jody Corcoran of the Sunday Independent who highlighted the terrible injustices which occurred in the past and brought them to public attention. The report outlines three major problems in regard to subventions, pocket money paid to patients and the question of whether elderly people who require hospital services should be in a position to avail of those services free of charge.

The Ombudsman, in his report, draws some conclusions about the provisions which were put into practice following the introduction of legislation in 1990. His conclusions are outlined on page 23 of his report. He states:

The 1990 Act does not make adult children legally liable for parents' hospital and nursing home costs; there is nothing in the 1990 Act to suggest that any such liability was contemplated by the Oireachtas; the regulations cannot impose a liability on adult children which is not explicitly provided by the 1990 Act; and the entire approach of the regulations in relation to family assessments was fundamentally misconceived.

Arising from the 1990 legislation, the Department drew up regulations which were presented to the then Minister, Deputy Howlin, and subsequently implemented. The most fundamental flaw in the regulations was the introduction of a new definition in regard to circumstances. The person who brought those regulations to the Minister without explaining their consequences should be called to account. The health boards implemented the regulations in different ways. For example, the Midland Health Board refused subventions when any one of a claimant's children refused to reveal income or personal details. A letter issued by the Midland Health Board at that time states:

The Midland Health Board are, therefore, now requesting you to submit details of income by way of P60, tax assessment form, farm accounts, income from investments etc. The health board must be furnished with these details to enable us to determine your liability, if any. Failure to furnish this information will mean the application for the subvention cannot be proceeded with.

In other words, the person in need of the subvention would not receive it if the information sought was not produced. It is outrageous that people would be deprived of necessary hospitalisation because of a flawed assessment procedure.

The Department also issued guidelines on the pocket money payable to adults in medical institutions via a very complicated letter to the health boards. The Ombudsman concludes on page 37 of his report that the essence of the Department's advice was that an amount equivalent to one fifth of the old age pension rate could be disregarded for the purposes of qualifying for the subvention. However, when it came to calculating the amount of subvention to be paid by the qualified person, the disregarded amount was to be taken back into the equation, with the effect, generally, of reducing the level of subvention to be paid. In other words, the pocket money allocation was calculated for the purposes of the subvention and effectively taken back from the applicant. That is unacceptable and I hope a complete reconsideration will be undertaken in this regard.

The Ombudsman's report states that the Midland Health Board received an additional allocation of £300,000 in January 1998, of which £150,000 was intended to cover the payment of arrears to people who had not been given the benefit of the pocket money provisions in the subvention means test. The Midland Health Board originally stated that it had applied article 8.2 correctly but when its attention was drawn to particular cases, it accepted that it had not done so. As of 30 September 2000, the Midland Health Board had paid a total of £86,256 arrears, including arrears in respect of people who had died in the interim. The Midland Health Board did not begin to pay arrears until 26 May 2000, in spite of the fact that it received an allocation for that purpose in January 1998. The board believes it now discharges full liability in respect of such arrears. Does the Minister agree it is outrageous that the health board received money for a specific purpose but failed to spend it on that purpose?

I wish to be associated with my colleagues in welcoming the report and complimenting the Ombudsman and his staff on its production. When I was a young fellow, if a child stole money he or she would be brought to answer for that deed. If someone was brought before the court, they could end up in jail even if only a small amount of money was stolen. The way the elderly were dealt with in the homes run by the State throughout the country was accepted by the Department of Health and Children. That is a reality.

Will the Minister of State refer this report to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children?

It has already been done.

Has it been fully discussed?

No, not yet.

So we will get a copy of the result of that particular investigation.

On the issue of subvention, we have a subvention package in place that is monitored by the different health boards. The levels are £75, £95 and £120, depending on the number of dependants. These levels have been in place since 1993 but they are not acceptable in 2001. In addition, the Government of the day made a decision that tax incentives would be given to individuals to produce beds for the elderly. That has been done and it is growing apace and, as as result of that decision, I will have the opportunity to be at the opening of a home in my own village in Kilmainham Wood on Friday next.

The bottom line is that when that decision was made, the State did not increase the subvention and the pressure was put on the families, many of whom were under pressure already trying to rear their families and pay mortgages, etc. The rules and regulations, and I spoke on many occasions at health board level, were unfair and the health board officials carried them out to the letter of the law on the basis of what the Department of Health said.

There is a need for the Minister of State and the senior Minister, Deputy Martin, to immediately increase the level of subvention on the basis of today's prices. We have a duty to the elderly people in society because this Government, or indeed any other Government, treated them shabbily by taking the few pounds pocket money they had and holding on to it. The Minister is now claiming a major victory by saying they will now give them back that money but it should never have been taken in the first place.

On numerous occasions and in different scenarios over the years – the hepatitis C issue is another example – officials in the Department of Health and Children defended the State at all times but put down the ordinary individual. They have done it again on this occasion. That particular view did not arise in the health boards throughout the country. It arose in the Department of Health and Children in Hawkins House because they always treated the ordinary citizen differently to themselves. I put it to the Minister that there is need for rapid change in the level of subvention and there is also need to ensure that what happened in this scenario, on the basis of what the Ombudsman has produced in this report, will never happen again.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate tonight and I congratulate Deputy Gay Mitchell in bringing it before the House. It is a damning report by the Ombudsman on the health boards and the Department of Health and Children on their activities and their malpractices over a number of years. One of the most damning features of this report is the fact that long after their malpractice was brought to their notice, the health boards continued in their flouting of the law. Several Bills were passed by this House yet the Department officials defiantly resisted the implementation of the features of these Acts and continued to extract these moneys illegally from vulnerable people.

Why has this happened? On many occasions in the past I said that officials in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development are empire building within their own Department. Surely this is another example of that, although perhaps to a lesser extent, because it is individuals within the Department who are doing this.

It is usual that complaints to the Ombudsman are made about individuals within Departments but this complaint must be seen in the wider corporate area of the Department of Health and Children and the health boards throughout the country. As a member of a health board I must say there is still a resistance within the health boards to acknowledge that they made a mistake. They cast aside the criticisms of what has happened and justify their deeds by saying there were difficult times in the past, that money was not available to the health boards from the Department, that they had to do something and that this was the only way they could provide beds for the elderly.

There was a duty on the Department, under the Acts, to provide beds for the elderly in need of care and they failed to deliver that. The only excuse they can give for the extraction of these moneys illegally is to say that they had to provide beds because nobody else would do it. They will say there were insufficient beds in local health board areas, hospitals or institutions to provide care for those people so they had to get some contribution. It is not good enough to put that forward as a reason for engaging in this practice.

The Minister knows that there are demands from health boards to provide additional funding to return these moneys to the people from whom they were extracted illegally but those health boards got finance within the past 12 months to enable them return some of those moneys but they have failed to do so. If that is not consolidating their arrogance, I do not know what it is. There must be an investigation and I welcome the Minister's statement that he has referred this report to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children for further examination and action that might be deemed necessary at a later stage. It is important, however, that the Minister takes action now. People on the other side of the House tonight said the Minister took action immediately but it was too late because this practice has gone on for years without any action being taken. How many people have suffered? How many people who are now dead were denied their entitlements because provisions and beds were not available? That is the sad part about this.

Many families have been hurt. Many elderly people have been hurt. Perhaps an elderly spouse now living realises what was done to them and they have to live with the fact that they were denied this money. How can they say that officials from the health board and the Department of Health and Children gave them what they were entitled to? They were denied that.

I endorse what Deputy Ring said. The same abuse is now occurring in the housing aid for the elderly scheme, where there is a demand being placed on applicants for these important repairs but the health boards will not provide them unless the applicants can come up with parallel funding. That practice must stop immediately because the same problem will arise in the future. That is not appropriate and it cannot continue.

As my colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, has stated, the report of the Ombudsman is to be welcomed. A report as critical as this may not make for pleasant reading. Nonetheless it is incumbent on all of us to take on board the criticisms levelled and learn from them.

While my colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, placed on record last night his apologies to people who were adversely affected by the operation of the scheme since 1993, I notice he was the only one to do so. I too take the opportunity to express my regret to all adversely affected. However, I must comment on the debate last night during which it was said it was expected the Minister would accept the failings that occurred within his Department over a number of years. It is incumbent on all of us to remember this scheme has been in operation under more that one Administration and the speakers last night are representatives of political parties whose membership includes people who themselves have been Ministers for Health since the introduction of the subvention scheme.

I remind the House that this Government has provided significantly increased funding for the development of services for older people from £10 million in 1997 to an additional £36 million in 2000, including nursing home subvention funding, while in 2001 an additional £57.427 million will be provided.

The Health (Nursing Homes) Act, 1990, on which the Ombudsman recently published a report, came into effect on 1 September 1993. This legislation has two principal objectives first, to ensure high standards of accommodation and care in all nursing homes registered under the Act and, second to provide a new system of nursing home subvention so that dependent persons most in need of nursing home care will have access to such care.

Initially £4 million was allocated for the scheme when it was introduced in 1993. An additional £14 million has been made available in 2001 for the nursing home subvention scheme, bringing the total available for the scheme to £52 million.

The recent report of the Ombudsman on the nursing home subvention scheme deals with the role of the Department of Health and Children in making regulations and in overseeing the introduction of the scheme. It examines the administration of the scheme by the health boards and considers the nature of the relationship between the Oireachtas and the Executive, and within the Executive, and also the relationship between the political and administrative levels.

I understand and fully support the Minister's immediate priority is ensuring that the two aspects of the regulations that have the most direct impact on nursing home patients and their families are fully addressed without delay. These were the subject of critical comment in the Ombudsman's report.

As Members know, article 8.2 of the Nursing Home (Subvention) Regulations, 1993, allows health boards disregard a sum equivalent to one fifth of the old age non-contributory pension when assessing means and calculating the amount of subvention to be paid. The payment due from an additional allocation of £4 million was made available in 1998 to six of the eight health boards, where the regulations were applied incorrectly, to meet the costs of arrears payments in respect of the full implementation of the Health (Nursing Homes) Act, 1990, and subsequent regulations. The funding was also used to address the additional problem of family circumstances regulations in 1996.

The Department has instructed the relevant boards to take immediate steps to pay all out standing arrears. To date, approximately £900,000 has been paid in respect of article 8.2 arrears. The Department is continuing to pursue this matter with the health boards concerned to ensure every effort will be made to pay all outstanding arrears as soon as possible.

Articles 9.1 and 9.2 of the Nursing Homes (Subvention) Regulations, 1993, allowed health boards to assess the ability of adult sons and/or daughters of older people who apply for nursing home subventions to contribute towards the cost of their parents' nursing home care. Deputy Ryan alleged last night that the regulations have not been amended since 1996.

This report is not one in which anyone involved emerges unscathed. It has implications for all concerned, Legislature and civil servants alike. It should not be used, however, as a political football, with people rushing to point the finger. Everybody who was a Member of this Oireachtas since 1993 has a responsibility in relation to the issues raised in this report. I take no satisfaction in the acknowledgement by the Ombudsman that actions have been taken by my Department. This report makes uncomfortable reading for us all and I look forward to further discussion on, and examination of, its contents.

I wish to share time with Deputies Boylan and Gay Mitchell. I thank Deputy Mitchell for giving us the opportunity to discuss this very important issue. I was glad to hear the Minister saying he is sorry and that the report makes for very difficult reading. Many families were put under extraordinary pressure through the years to make funds available to keep their relations in nursing homes. Unfortunately, while this report deals with the past, the current situation is not much better. Up until April 1994 those in the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan benefited from the fact that many of our elderly could be kept free of charge north of the Border once they had a pension book, and at the time we received an excellent service with little cost to the State. I remember dealing with an officer of the health board who would not allow a Cavan patient cross the Border into a home in Clones, County Monaghan, as she said patients could not cross the county borders. However, she was quietly getting a person across the Border to accommodation in Enniskillen. While I would like to think the same EU and international regulations apply to the entire island, the placing of a person in a home in Northern Ireland with no cost to the State was good for the health board but we do not like to see a person being removed from their own family area where they want to remain.

The Government has many questions to answer in terms of the money it is spending on the winter bed initiative. They have pumped money into the acute hospital service with a demand to have beds made available regardless of cost. I understand beds which are being utilised by health boards through community services, costing £200 each, are being bought out of the system at up to £500 just so it can be said something is being done. The running of the services begs many questions. Personnel at local level should be allowed use their own initiative to get these things at the lowest possible cost and I urge the Minister to review the entire system. It is unthinkable that a bed in a nursing home, which could be lying idle under the winter bed initiative, is costing the State up to £500, whereas a bed beside it is costing the State £200. It is unforgivable for the system to allow that to happen. While we need to look at the report of the Ombudsman, it is also necessary to examine what is currently happening.

The proposals for the years ahead suggest that in my constituency 750 beds will be necessary in the service by 2010. Currently there are only about 470 beds. There is a need to build nursing homes in Monaghan, Cootehill and other areas to ensure that deficits where they exist are addressed, and that they are run at a minimum cost to the State. Intervention is great as it allows private homes to be used, but in many cases it costs a great deal and the way some of the systems are being run gives rise to many questions.

Recently I came across the case of a man in Navan hospital who was there as a result of a hip injury. He had a hip replacement and he and his family were warned leaving there that he would need physiotherapy from the first day he arrived in Monaghan general hospital. However, there was no bed for him there and after a few days they moved him into a private winter bed. That bed costs the State approximately £500 and yet no physiotherapy is available. Although that man is eligible for health care and has no means the family have to find money to pay the physiotherapist.

The issue needs to be re-examined. The Ombudsman report is important, as it tells us the history, but we certainly have a great deal to learn from the present as well.

I compliment the Fine Gael spokesman on health, Deputy Gay Mitchell, for bringing this issue to the Dáil. It is with a sense of outrage that I speak about what has been discussed here last night and tonight. I thank Mr. Jody Corcoran of the Sunday Independent for bringing it to public attention in the first place.

The Ombudsman's report makes harrowing reading and it will not be good enough in this House, if the people involved in the systematic abuse and exploitation of old people are allowed to hide behind the Ombudsman's report or this debate. They must be named and shamed. They knew what they were doing. They had vulnerable people, unable to defend themselves, people placed in care by their families in the belief that they were in safe hands and would get good care, and they took their pocket money from them, the few shillings they had to give them independence in what was, for them, a strange place, to buy sweets or a packet of biscuits or perhaps ciga rettes. How low can we get? Do we turn a blind eye to it? The people will not allow this to go by. People are annoyed and outraged that this happened.

I am amazed at backbench Government Deputies complimenting the Government on refunding the money. What else would it do but return the money? It does not belong to it. It was stolen in the first place. It was a criminal—

Why did the Deputy's Government not do it?

The Minister of State should not point the finger. He is currently in the relevant position. Let him call an election now, let us over to the Government side of the House and we will deal with it properly. The carry-on coming out of Dublin Castle at present happened because good men turned a blind eye. They knew what was happening. We cannot afford to turn a blind eye in this instance. We must deal with it. We must make sure it does not happen again.

I am proud that the North Eastern Health Board is not implicated. I would have been extremely disappointed. People from within and outside of my county and constituency have to go outside the North Eastern Health Board area for nursing care. I would like to know they are in safe hands.

The people involved in this criminal activity must pay a penalty. It should involve community work, but it cannot involve the care of the elderly. They must be made to pay. They cannot expect to get away with it nor should they get away with it if we are to be serious about retaining our good name.

I wish to highlight the great nursing care given in one of the country's oldest institutions, that of St. Phelim's Hospital in Cavan town. It is a marvellous, wonderful place, a health board run hospital that has given marvellous care. It is a pity that could not be repeated nation wide and people could feel safe and secure and know that, in their retiring years they would be well looked-after and not abused.

I thank Deputies who contributed to the debate, particularly my colleagues who have supported the motion before the House.

ALONE estimates that 88,000 Irish people over the age of 65 spend Christmas day on their own. This is a scandalous indictment of society. Government services must lead the way in showing respect and support for older people. What we have seen in this case is that Government services and agencies, knowing that they have not got lawful authority, not only did not lead the way in support of those elderly people but misused their powers in a way that ill-treated vulnerable, elderly people.

The Minister has come in here and tabled an amendment commending the Government for the decision to pay all outstanding arrears due to the people. I will not accept that amendment. I could not possibly commend the Government for its actions.

Until January 2001 the Department of Health and Children denied it was responsible and claimed it had advice from the Attorney General to show it was not responsible. It certainly had not indicated that it would make full repayments. Not only must the repayments be made but it is mean to suggest that it is in order to repay, retrospectively, only that which was withheld. What should be paid back to these people is their money with interest.

The Government ran a £6,000 billion surplus last year. What would a couple of hundred thousand pounds interest cost the State one way or the other? The decent and right thing is not to come in here and, under pressure from the Opposition, show a sincere face and say sincere words to the effect that the Government is sorry. Let the Government show its sorrow. Pay back the money in full with interest to those people. It was their money, taken from them unlawfully. It was immoral to take that money from them. Were it not for the Ombudsman we would not be in the position to know that, as he went into that in great detail.

The Minister did not refer in his speech, nor did the Minister of State this evening refer to the delays encountered by the Ombudsman, caused by the refusal of the health boards and the Department of Health and Children to respond to his inquiries in a timely way. They tried to frustrate the work of the Ombudsman, appointed by this House to uphold the rights of the citizens of the State. The Government of the day and the Department of Health and Children of the day frustrated the Ombudsman and did not come forward with the information in a timely way to help him indict them as he has done. It is indicative of the uncaring attitude of the current Government that the Minister attempted to cover up his responsibilities in the few words he put on the record last night.

If the Department of Health and Children was not responsible and claims it was the health boards and they did not know and that the Minister did not know, it was not until December, 1999—

I was not there.

The Minister was there. He was there in December—

I was not.

His predecessor, Deputy Cowen, was there in December 1999.

There were two Ministers there before December 1999 and one of them was in the Deputy's party and is now leader of that party.

He failed to monitor what happened and has come in here with his funeral face—

We dealt with it.

—and his sincere eyebrows—

On a point of order, we dealt with it in 1999.

—and his usual trick—

Deputy Cowen was the first Minister to deal with it.

—to set up another committee, or to set up another inquiry—

We paid the arrears.

—or, as he did today, to spend money – which I will deal with on another occasion – a smoke screen to pretend he is dealing with the alcohol business when his Government has extended drinking hours.

This Minister, if he was sincere about showing respect for those elderly people and implementing the strategy which his Department says it has, he would repay the money with interest. The coffers of the State are full with money. Those people should get that money back with interest. If they sue, those people will, through the courts, get that money back with interest.

It is Fine Gael policy that there should be a covenant of rights and responsibilities between the providers of health care services and the citizens of the state. This report, this indictment, clearly underlines the need for a signed covenant of rights and responsibilities between an identified person on behalf of the State and the citizen.

If the Ombudsman, with all the responsibilities he has across all the Departments, State agencies, local authorities and health boards, can come up with such an indictment, what would an ombudsman specifically dedicated to health issues find? I call on the Minister to appoint a full-time ombudsman for health and to create a covenant of rights and responsibilities which that person will oversee. If such action were taken, we would find that what has happened and was highlighted in the Ombudsman's report is not the exception but rather the practice. The people are being abused by a health system presided over by that Minister. The smile will be wiped off the Minister's face, the Mercedes will be taken away and the time will come when he will have to face the electorate and answer for the mishandling of the health services during his tenure of office.

I did not realise he was Minister for Health in 1993.

Amendment put.

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.

Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John J.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond. Power, Seán.

Tá–continued

Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.

Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.

Kenny, Enda.Lowry, Michael.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, William.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and Stagg.
Amendment declared carried.
Question: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to" put and declared carried.
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