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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Feb 2001

Vol. 531 No. 4

Private Notice Questions. - Foot and Mouth Disease.

asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development what extra measures the Government intends to take at the Border with Northern Ireland in view of the reports of a suspected case of foot and mouth disease in County Armagh; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development what additional measures he intends to take to prevent the possible spread of foot and mouth disease to this State in the light of confirmation by the Minister for Agriculture in the Northern Executive of the presence of sheep in Northern Ireland which have been in contact with foot and mouth disease at a mart in Carlisle; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development if, following reports of a suspected outbreak of foot and mouth disease in County Armagh, he will outline the additional measures he will put in place to prevent the further spread of this disease.

asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development the emergency protective measures he is taking to address the critical situation facing agriculture in Border counties resulting from the suspected outbreak of the foot and mouth virus in Northern Ireland.

asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development if, in view of the suspected outbreak of foot and mouth disease in County Armagh, he has any additional measures in place to block the minor roads where there are no disinfectant measures to prevent the spread of foot and mouth disease south of the Border; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

asked the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, in view of the suspected case of foot and mouth disease in Northern Ireland, if he will issue directives to all agencies under the aegis of his Department with the objective of minimising the potential for the spread of the disease in this jurisdiction, thereby protecting a major industry and enhancing the profile of Ireland's protective measures; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Confirmation by the authorities in Northern Ireland that they are investigating a suspected case of foot and mouth disease in the locality of Meigh, south Armagh, is of the utmost concern. The veterinary investigations being conducted by the Northern Ireland authorities centre on sheep which came from the Carlisle market in Britain. The outbreak in Devon has been attributed to sheep from this market.

The farm in Meigh has been under restriction for some time. Earlier today the Northern authorities decided to place an eight kilometre zone around the holding within which all movement of susceptible species is being prohibited. As a precautionary measure, they have also decided to slaughter the sheep in question, reflecting the approach being taken elsewhere in the European Union and following the advice of the standing veterinary committee yesterday to have similar type imported animals slaughtered.

The Border with Northern Ireland bisects the eight kilometre zone. Accordingly, and in order to complete the protective zone, my Department is putting in place a zone immediately south of the Border in north Louth into and out of which the movement of all animals will be prohibited. The area will then be put under veterinary scrutiny. The necessary order is being prepared and I am arranging for the assistance of the Garda and Army in ensuring that movement restrictions are fully effective.

The case under investigation in Meigh is not confirmed as a positive case – it is a suspect case – and these measures are, therefore, precautionary.

These are worrying developments. In the course of this morning my Department had a speedy review of the situation and carried out an investigation of existing controls. Arising from this, additional resources are to be deployed to control particular points of access and a number of other actions will also be taken. They reflect the suggestions made here yesterday and at the Oireachtas committee meeting where Deputies, including Deputy Dukes, made some suggestions. There was particular concern in regard to the movement of animals and movement of people and whether they could be minimised further. The additional measures are: prohibition on the movement within the country of all susceptible animals; the cancellation, by agreement with relevant bodies and otherwise, if necessary, of all hunting, fishing, hill walking activity which involves access to and passes through farmlands; an immediate call on all sporting bodies to postpone events, or where this is not possible to ensure that protective measures are in place so that vehicles and spectators undergo disinfection; a further public information campaign via the national media to support last weekend's information campaign.

The measures necessary to put the foregoing into effect including, where appropriate, the necessary legal instruments are being prepared for me.

We are into a new and deeply worrying phase of this issue and, just as I have done up to now, I am ruling nothing out when it comes to any further measures that may be necessary as matters unfold.

I thank the Minister for outlining the further measures he proposes to take. He will understand I am not simply being curmudgeonly when I say I hope those measures are put fully into effect and that we do not see in them the kind of gaps in implementation that we have talked about in this House for the past week, because every day brings new indications of a vast difference between the intention and the practice on the measures. If it is the case that the main Dublin to Belfast road goes through the prohibition zone that surrounds the farm in question, as I am informed, will the Minister seek to put in place measures to divert traffic? I put it to him that it would be entirely undesirable for traffic to pass through that area given what we know about the way this disease can spread. Since the Minister has confirmed that the sheep on this farm were in the same location in Carlisle as sheep that finally turned up with the disease in Devon, has he any further information on any of the other sheep imported into this country between 1-20 February? The Minister of State, Deputy Davern, indicated yesterday that some 3,000 sheep been imported into this country came from Devon and what progress has been made in locating and slaughtering those sheep? Will the Minister see to it that information is made available to farmers on the symptoms of this disease? Specifically, will he cause to be put on the Department's website information on the symptoms which will be published and given wide publicity? The information contained on the British Ministry of Agriculture's website is clear, comprehensive and, as far as I know, reliable. Will the Minister agree it is extremely worrying to find, even as late as last night, that there is no clear description of the symptoms generally available to farmers and that even farm leaders are not in a position to give a clear description of these symptoms?

I thank Deputy Dukes for expressing his concern yesterday both here and at the Oireachtas committee meeting. I tried to ensure I took his views into account when drawing up the additional measures. In relation to gaps in the measures, I do not think it is possible to have totally watertight access points. We have put measures in place. We advertised them widely by putting advertisements in the newspapers, including clinical signs, over the weekend. I called on the general public to co-operate fully to seek to ensure this dreaded plague did not come into the country. I reiterate that call for people to co-operate.

In relation to sheep or any susceptible livestock that may have come into the country since 1 February, we have been in co-operation with the London and Belfast authorities who have a tracking system in place since then. We have established that at least three consignments of sheep came into the country, two to Wexford and one for slaughter in the west. The two in Wexford were put under surveillance straight away after it was established they came from Great Britain and will be slaughtered tomorrow as a precautionary measure. There are no suspects there and it is not a suspect case. The standing veterinary committee of the EU said yesterday if any animals were imported into member states from Britain that, as a precautionary measure, they should be slaughtered. That is being done.

In relation to the consignment of sheep that went for slaughter to the west, that plant was visited immediately after it had been established and the plant was disinfected and all the staff interviewed. Some 12 members of staff were part-time farmers or had association with farms. Those farms are restricted since it was established that sheep came in from outside the jurisdiction. We are continuing to do everything possible. Where there is scientific advice or where the standing veterinary committee of the EU say that measures should be taken, that is being done.

What about the main roads?

I was not sure if the main road went through the exclusion zone. It was only defined a couple of hours ago but I will establish that.

My information is that this farm is almost on the Border, as the Minister has indicated, that it joins the main road and that any eight kilometre exclusion or surveillance zone around the farm would cover the main road. That being the case, will the Minister ensure traffic is diverted because as long as we have a disease of this kind that can be carried in the air, it is clear there is a major risk of transmission via traffic going up and down the main road?

The information note provided to me says the zone south of the Border is being defined at present. This is being done in conjunction with the Garda. This will involve re-routing traffic from any of the roads that go through the exclusion zone. We have asked the Garda and the Army to assist in that re-routing of traffic.

We made a number of suggestions to the Minister's officials at the committee last evening, some of which have been taken on board. Will the Minister agree that the virus is very contagious, virulent, airborne and can be transmitted easily by way of transportation and humans? Given that people are a major source of transmission, is it time to consider restricting movement between susceptible zones?

In the event of a foot and mouth outbreak being identified here, what emergency or contingency plans are in place to deal it? Who would be responsible? That is why I called yesterday evening for a task force to be chaired by the Taoiseach. I am not happy that there is sufficient interdepartmental co-operation to deal with this issue. The Departments involved include Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Taoiseach and Finance. Does the Minister agree the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Tourism, Sport and Recreation should also be involved given that the angling season is now beginning and boats will be arriving in this country? I was contacted this morning by people who are involved in this business. Does the Minister agree the task force should have a wider remit than is currently the case?

Is there sufficient emergency legislation in place to deal with the crisis? If the movement of people has to be restricted, will that entail emergency legislation given the Supreme Court decision on the right to travel? Does the Minister agree the Taoiseach should lead by example and cancel his proposed visit to Wales tomorrow? I have advised my people not to travel home from England this weekend. We must lead by example. What level of co-operation is in place with the Minister for Agriculture in Northern Ireland? What has taken place to date to restrict the movement of susceptible animals onto the island and across the Border?

What measures are in place in the Minister's Department to ensure it does not become a risk area for the spread of foot and mouth disease? Is there a disinfectant system in place in Agriculture House which is just 300 metres from here?

No, I have been there.

I ask the question because I know of someone who was there. Numerous people are going to Agriculture House to fill in forms and so on.

The Deputy should confine his remarks to the question.

I am asking a question. Is there a disinfectant system in place in Agriculture House from where the example should emanate? Are there disinfectant stations in all Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development offices which are open to the public? Will the Minister encourage farmers to send in documentation and allow them additional time to do so rather than having them visit agricultural offices? Should the same apply to Teagasc offices? Are there sufficient reserves of disinfectant to increase the number of disinfectant units at points of entry to the country?

In the unfortunate event of a suspected case of foot and mouth disease in this jurisdiction, what steps are in place to ensure testing can take place without delay? Have we a laboratory capable of carrying out these tests or would the tests have to be carried out in Pirbright in England? If not, is the Minister prepared to invest in a well resourced epidemiological unit to test for diseases such as foot and mouth disease? Will the Minister guarantee that the current reserves of disinfectant are sufficient to ensure everyone entering the State from the UK can avail of same?

Deputy Penrose asked a number of questions. In relation to the movement of people, we have issued statements and directives and spoken with a number of relevant bodies who have promised to call off to the greatest extent possible various events. This applies to the IRFU in relation to the rugby match, horse race meetings, including point to point, and a range of greyhound race meetings. I have now included hunting, fishing, hill walking and so on. I have also asked Dúchas to cancel all trips to national parks where people might congregate in order to minimise the movement of people. I have asked people publicly to desist from making journeys outside the State, particularly to the UK, unless absolutely necessary. If they must travel, I have asked them to use the hygiene facilities and disinfectant measures available to them.

The Deputy asked that the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Tourism, Sport and Recreation be included in the task force. The task force met for the first time this morning and I will be pleased to convey the Deputy's recommendation that these Departments be included.

On the level of contact with the North, I have spoken on a number of occasions with the Minister, Bríd Rodgers, including today on the suspected case of the disease. The chief veterinary officer and his officials and the chief veterinary officer in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development in Dublin are in hourly contact with one another. The same applies to Mr. Scudamore in the UK. There is ongoing co-operation in relation to this crisis.

On the question of laboratory facilities, there are no testing facilities in this country. Testing is carried out in the UK and this does not cause a problem.

The Deputy asked if there is an adequate supply of detergent. My information is that there is an adequate supply of detergent. From the beginning, we were in touch with the suppliers and manufacturers of detergents to ensure they increased the supply because there is a huge demand for this. I am addressing all the issues raised by the Deputy.

This issue is of great concern to everyone in the country. A number of the measures outlined are confined mainly to people who have been in contact with animals and involved in agriculture. How can urban dwellers prevent the spread of this disease? Given that approximately 80% of the population live in large towns and cities, what advice can the Minister give them in terms of their movement and behaviour during this crisis? Would the Minister advise people to restrict unnecessary journeys within the country and how will he communicate this message?

The Deputy is correct that this crisis affects every citizen in the country. Everyone has a duty to co-operate and be vigilant in regard to this potentially serious matter. Urban dwellers can help by not purchasing uncooked food of any kind such as dairy products and cheeses made from raw milk. There are a number of uncooked or partly cooked meats in which the virus survives. For example, it survives pasteurisation of milk. Any milk coming into the country – this would affect Border counties more than the south – should be double pasteurised or ultra high temperature treated. Urban dwellers should check cartons to ensure this is the case.

Should the product be on the shelves?

The first case was confirmed in the UK on Tuesday last week. The following day we issued a directive to all the retail outlets pointing out the susceptible products and asking that they not be stocked on shelves. Problems may arise where goods are delivered door to door.

I have asked people not to travel, especially to the UK, unless it is absolutely necessary. If they travel to Great Britain they should not visit farms because that will add to the risk. It will help if people take measures to reduce travelling and contact with farms and farm animals and not purchase uncooked or partly cooked products. People sometimes give crumbs to pet dogs. That is unhelpful and in the public notices we have included this as an activity to avoid . This is an extremely virulent organism. With the best will in the world we must take every possible precaution and this means trying to avoid even the most minimal of risks.

If the outbreak in Northern Ireland is confirmed will the Minister agree that County Donegal would be especially vulnerable due to the fact that the county has probably the longest land border with Northern Ireland? Can he guarantee that all crossings between County Donegal and other Border counties and Northern Ireland, either approved or unapproved, will be adequately manned to prevent the spread of the disease through either human or animal contact?

Will the Minister outline the latest measures taken along the Border? Has security been increased? What steps have been taken since this news broke at lunch time? What is being done?

Since lunch time we have been in discussions with the Garda and the Army to get their assistance in patrolling the Border roads. We have also enlisted additional resources and staff from my Department, for example, the land project officers and other officers. I have also contacted Teagasc. It has a good number of advisers who can be helpful in policing. The intention is to seal the Border as far as is possible.

With regard to the results of the test on this case, even though the exclusion zone includes a part of north County Louth that will not change the designation of Ireland as disease free. It will not affect our status on this disease.

In case anyone misinterpreted my comments yesterday, I confirm that meetings have taken place in Monaghan between the gardaí and the relevant authorities. The DVO and the personnel concerned are making every possible effort in very difficult circumstances. I understand it will be impossible to fully man all the minor Border crossings to ensure they remain closed. Will the Minister take account of the fact that personnel in some of the Border areas close to south County Armagh have asked that security measures be dramatically accelerated? Farm families are in dire fear of the total loss of their businesses. They have put it to me that it does not matter if things are brought to a standstill for a week, ten days or a fortnight.

Has the Minister considered the need to close roads if necessary? I hate the word "close" because we have lived with closed roads for too long, but we are dealing with a disastrous situation. Is proper lighting being provided, especially for the main checkpoints? There was a hit and run incident involving one garda and I understand a second was also injured. It has been drawn to my attention that some of the battery powered lamps are not very good, especially as the night goes on. We need to ensure that is properly addressed.

Will the Minister indicate how many Border roads are there? Deputy McGinley said the County Donegal stretch of the Border was perhaps the longest. The County Monaghan stretch might be slightly longer. The Border along the county is extremely difficult to man. Is the Minister satisfied that the roads are being manned in a satisfactory manner and that personnel on them are properly advised? From my inspection of some of the roads there are big differences between the ways in which some gardaí are carrying out their duties.

How many Army personnel are involved with the Garda? We have been told how many gardaí have been moved northwards.

That might be a question for another Minister.

It is very relevant. A task force has been established to co-ordinate all the different groups concerned. When I travelled along the Border I did not see any Army involvement. I do not say it is not involved, but in a national emergency we must include everybody necessary. The Army could play no better role than to be present along the Border. Farm organisations, among others, have supplied water and addressed the other issues.

Have the different sport organisations in the Border area been contacted? I have contacted my county board chairman, Councillor Gary Carville, and he has advised me that discussions are ongoing with a view to cancelling the different games that are scheduled. It is essential this be done properly in the Border region.

Will the Minister ascertain if the Dundalk-Castleblayney road has been involved in the suspected outbreak? The road is causing serious problems. Last weekend people travelled to Dundalk and on their return they crossed the Border but could not return. A joint approach must be taken to addressing this aspect as it covers the most difficult area.

I do not know how much of the Border area the Minister has examined, but it is very complex. Has he any proof or otherwise that livestock has been moved illegally along these routes? Today I heard of a case in north County Monaghan where gates were left open and tracks were made at a time when the family concerned was in a hospital.

A question please, Deputy.

We need to ensure the Border area is contained by all the relevant personnel. I appreciate the Minister's comments on the involvement of Teagasc and Department officials. We need them all to be involved. In view of the situation the Fine Gael Party has cancelled its constituency convention in an effort to maintain the status quo in the area.

I appreciate the Deputy's acknowledgement of the role of the DVO and the gardaí in Monaghan. Department personnel, gardaí and everybody directly concerned have been working 17 or 18 hours a day to try and grapple with, and put measures in place to address a problem that was first confirmed in Great Britain a week ago yesterday. From Wednesday of last week, as matters have unfolded, every possible measure has been put in place.

The Garda are co-operating fully with the Department. As regards Border roads and unapproved roads, the Army has been at the Border for some days and if the Garda say additional Army personnel is required, the Army will provide whatever additional resources are necessary based on the Garda request. Sporting organisations have been totally co-operative and have been extremely helpful. They share everybody's concern about this disease.

The Deputy asked about illegal traffic in animals. There is an unfortunate situation here where a very small number of people flout the rules. Members will have seen in the media examples of where people have infected their own herds. People have been prosecuted for tampering with disease control regulations. In the Border area, there is some illicit traffic in animals. The investigation branch in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, the Garda, the RUC and the authorities in the North of Ireland are working to stamp this out and to ensure, as far as is possible, that it is stamped out but, as the Deputy said, if gates are left open where a farm straddles the Border, it is extremely difficult. That is why everybody's co-operation is absolutely essential in this matter because unscrupulous people will find a loophole somewhere.

On a point of information—

No, Deputy. I call Deputy Durkan.

The gates were not left open; they were opened by somebody when the family was away.

Whether or not we can contain the disease, given the suspected case in Northern Ireland, will the Minister now issue all bodies with an influence on the eventual outcome with ultimate instructions as if the outbreak was in this jurisdiction now so as to deal with a worst case scenario in the first instance and to recognise that whatever measures are taken now will be seen ultimately in terms of their effectiveness or otherwise?

The Minister mentioned that he has asked various bodies and agencies, both under the aegis of his Department and otherwise, not to proceed with visits or to go hill walking. Is it not time to issue specific instructions, because it will be too late in two or three days time?

This morning the Taoiseach mentioned the movement of animals to final destinations. Will the Minister look again at what that entails, because the movement of animals to final destinations can also have some serious consequences in certain circumstances? Will he look at those areas, in particular, and at the possibility of segregating the country into cells which can be isolated reasonably effectively? At least we might make a better attempt to control the outbreak than they did in the nearest jurisdiction.

On the question of encouraging people not to travel, I know some airlines and sea carriers have already indicated their willingness to compensate people in certain circumstances. I hope the Minister will use his influence and that of the Government to encourage carriers to do just that.

Deputy Durkan asked if we would treat this suspect case as if it was a positive one. The decision taken this morning to prohibit the movement of all susceptible animals is such a response to that because that creates an exclusion zone within our own jurisdiction. The Taoiseach referred to a final destination this morning. A final destination is a slaughterhouse or an abattoir. People who have finished cattle and want them processed take them to a final destination and that will be allowed. We want to stop traffic of animals farm to farm and from one location to another. If farmers have finished animals and they want to take them to slaughter houses, that will be allowed.

The Deputy asked that various bodies be directed to cease various activities. We have called in a range of bodies and, in all cases, they have shared our concern and have called off the various events, gatherings and sporting activities. We will continue to do that if any suggestion is made here or elsewhere. I have no difficulty with people saying they have found a loophole or an access point because it should be investigated and attended to straight away. If a range of people are directed to do a particular job, some will do it better than others and some will know their job. I gave an instruction this morning that a standardised set of instructions be sent out to officers everywhere stating what they should do in particular circumstances to close off any small or minute risk and to seek to ensure the area is sealed as far as is humanly possible.

As regards visitors to historical places, I have been approached by those at Newgrange, Knowth and Dowth and the cairns outside Oldcastle where people trespass over land. What is the situation in that regard? Are the necessary measures being put in place to stop these people? Farmers in those areas are very concerned.

We spoke to Dúchas and asked it to close parks, various monuments and all the places people congregate and visit. In cases where people have to make a journey or where people have access to a farm, we have asked them to co-operate in minimising travel as much as is humanly possible. However, we need the total co-operation of the public in dealing with this matter.

Has the Minister received the full report on the lorry that brought the sheep from Carlisle to Armagh? Will he confirm that this lorry immediately travelled south to County Cavan? Will he state what type of load it was carrying? Will the Minister confirm that when apprehended in County Cavan, the driver gave false information about his destination? Has he satisfied himself as to where that lorry travelled in County Cavan? What precautions has he taken to ensure that the disease has not spread South of the Border given the activities of this driver and lorry on Thursday night of last week?

I made specific inquiries in the Department before I came in here to get the most up to date information available. The most up to date information on this driver is that inquiries are still being made and the driver is awaiting further questioning. In relation to the lorry driver and some activities North and South of the Border, it is extremely difficult to pinpoint and establish exactly where vehicles have been and to where they are going and we are doing this in conjunction with the RUC. At some times, the lorry or vehicle is north of the Border while at others, it is south of the Border. The Garda and our investigation branch are continuing their investigations intensively. I understand that at this point the driver is wanted for additional questioning.

There are 12 Deputies offering – Deputies Naughten, Farrelly, Connaughten, Timmins, Dukes, Upton, Joe Higgins, Sheehan, Perry, Ulick Burke, Deenihan and McGahon. I propose to take three questions and then a reply from the Minister. We will take a final question from Deputies Dukes and Penrose as the principal spokespersons. I call Deputies Naughten, Farrelly and Connaughton.

The Minister stated in his opening remarks that the farmer in County Armagh had been under suspicion for some time. For how long was he under suspicion and how long were the sheep on the farm? When was the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development informed by the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland that this individual was under suspicion? Has the Department traced all of the sheep, pigs and cattle which were imported from the UK between 1 and 20 February? With the exception of the two cases in Wexford in which the animals are due to be slaughtered tomorrow, have all of those imported animals been destroyed? If they have been destroyed, were they slaughtered? What has happened to the carcases and by-products of these animals – have they also been destroyed or are they in circulation? What has happened to the sheep carcases and by-products of the incident in the west and what type of restrictions are currently in place there?

Will the task force consider cancelling St. Patrick's Day parades throughout Ireland as people from around the world travel here for this holiday and congregate in counties around the country? Why are there no disinfection mats at the doors of the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development? I have just come from the Department and could not believe there were no mats; neither could the two farmers I met on the way out. Will the Minister instruct all local authorities, tax offices and other public buildings to provide disinfection mats? People go to tax offices throughout the country in droves at the end of the month to renew their car tax. I intend to contact all of the people for whom my business sells houses to ask them to provide disinfection mats at show houses next weekend and I call on the Minister to ask my colleagues throughout the country to do likewise. Last Saturday, hundreds of people from both urban and rural areas visited show houses in my area. We should curtail all public events. Two major events were due to take place the weekend after next in my constituency – our convention and a function to mark my 25 years in politics—

I did not get a ticket.

—but we are in the process of cancelling them. Action must be taken everywhere people congregate.

I ask Deputies to confine their remarks to questions so that all Members may be facilitated.

Many of the questions I wished to ask have already been asked. Are there any potential flash points of foot and mouth disease in the Republic? Will the Minister confirm or deny that the Department has been called to a number of locations today in this regard? I do not have any proof that this has happened but I received a number of phone calls which suggested that there are some suspect areas. It is extremely important that we would be aware of any potential outbreaks.

I am not convinced that we can curtail the importation of sheep from the UK. We have never been able to do that. I have raised with the Minister on a number of occasions the question of sheep being illegally imported into this country in the dead of night. I am gravely concerned that numerous sheep may have been imported in the past two or three weeks about which nobody is aware.

The Deputy should put a question to the Minister.

I do not understand how the Department's control system could have clicked into gear in the past month when it has not been possible to control these imports in the past.

The Minister has stopped all on-farm inspections. As farmers do not have access to marts to sell their store cattle and sheep, will the Minister ensure all grants to farmers are paid promptly, irrespective of whether the farms have been inspected? Members of the agricultural community are hardest hit by this outbreak.

Deputy Naughten asked about sheep which were imported into a plant in the west prior to the outbreak in the UK. Those sheep were slaughtered and departmental officials called to the plant where they interviewed everyone. Restrictions were imposed on any farms with which employees were associated as part-time farmers etc. and the farms will be kept under surveillance. The carcase by-products were rendered.

I congratulate Deputy Farrelly on his quarter of a century in public life and I wish him many more years as an elected representative.

I thank the Minister.

I have already asked people to avoid returning to Ireland to attend St. Patrick's Day parades. In the light of a number of suggestions and recommendations made here, I will undertake to ask parade organisers to cancel the parades as there is a risk, however small, where people congregate in large numbers. The cancellation of the parades will inconvenience and disappoint many people who have put great effort into their organisation but we must reduce risks, where possible.

A number of people have raised the issue of mats being placed at the entrances to public buildings, including Department buildings. Initially, we sought to ensure that mats and disinfectants were made available at access points to people who travelled to Ireland from abroad as this was the area of highest risk. However, I take the point that wherever people congregate, particularly those from an agricultural background, mats should be available and I will arrange for that to be done.

In reply to Deputy Connaughton, the Department has been called to a number of specific locations about which there were suspicions. I compliment members of the public on reporting strange or unusual happenings at farms, factories or abattoirs. We do not have reason to believe there is any suspicious case in the country at present. The Deputy's comments about sheep imports were also correct. It is amazing that although there are some eight million sheep in the country which do not command a great price – a fact for which I have received much of the blame – sheep continue to be imported. It has proved extremely difficult to control such imports. In my discussions with the social partners, I stated that these imports could be controlled only by tagging individual sheep. This was resisted by the major farming organisations. However, it will have to be done as there is no other way of controlling them. Since the importation ban was imposed, there have been no difficulties because all vehicles carrying sheep are sent back. There has not been a case since the ban was imposed, but it is those which emerged before it was imposed about which we are concerned.

The Deputy asked about on-farm visits which are cancelled and if grants are available. I will have inquire about those matters. Administratively, there is a need for accountability. In the case of some on-farm grants the works in question must be completed. I will look at what can be done. On premia and headage payments, a case can be made for paying 60% or 80% of the grant in advance and later reconciling—

Some farmers have been left with no income.

I will inquire if advance payments can be made.

(Interruptions.)

That happened a day or so after the ban was imposed. The ban was imposed last Wednesday after which it was placed under surveillance.

The Leas-Ceann Comhairle hit the kernel of the matter, inadvertently, when he interjected while Deputy Crawford was asking his question about the number of military personnel involved to state that the Deputy was addressing his question to the wrong Minister. While I appreciate that the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development is doing all he can, does he agree that the Government as a whole does not appreciate the extent of the problem? There should be several Ministers present. Let me give one simple example. The Minister called on Dúchas to curtail activity. In the national park in Wicklow, which stretches from Enniskerry to Tullow, a distance of 80 miles, there are approximately 1,000 wild goats and, at least, 8,000 wild deer, but up to yesterday it had not received any instructions. Has it been informed? The problem is that many Departments are not playing a role and will close the door only after the horse is gone. What does the Minister have to say about this?

Through the media.

Dr. Upton

Animals in the wild such as rats and hedgehogs are susceptible to foot and mouth disease. Has the Minister given any consideration to the procedures that could be put in place to restrict the movement of such animals? As the last outbreak of foot and mouth disease was in 1941, what training programmes have been put in place for vets and farmers? Is there an emergency update? As samples have to be sent to the United Kingdom, how long does it take to have a case confirmed?

(Dublin West): It was suggested on the television programme, “Prime Time”, last night that up to 100 mares had been imported into Coolmore Stud from England following the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in England. Is this true and, if so, was the Department aware of it? Will the Minister give details to the Dáil? Why was that allowed to happen given that these animals pose as much of a risk as other animals which have been banned? Is it a question of Coolmore Stud being shown favouritism? Did the Government wait until last night before introducing the ban so as to allow animals to be imported? It has been reported in racing circles that if the Cheltenham racing festival takes place, the horse, Istabraq, will race. Given the incumbent risks this should be deplored by the Minister as it would encourage many to travel to Cheltenham. Will the Minister call on the horse's owner to declare that he will not travel?

I have sympathy for the Minister, a constituency colleague of mine, but we must be cruel to be kind. This is not a laughing matter. As well as deploying members of the Army and the Garda, the Government should mobilise members of Civil Defence to ensure all roads along the Border are monitored and kept under surveillance. Day-trippers to Holyhead must also be closely policed to ensure the necessary precautions are taken to prevent the spread of the disease. What steps are being taken to deal with the threat posed by letters and packages from Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the many trailers from the North which travel as far south as Bantry in the Minister's constituency approximately once a month at weekends? I was informed by two of the Minister's representatives last night at the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine that birds do not carry the disease. I learned this morning, however, that the French are concerned about seagulls. If that is so, we should be concerned about migratory birds which have flown here from England and Scotland because of the recent Arctic conditions, such as the lapwing, golden plover and green plover. What steps has the Department taken to tackle this problem?

What plans does the Minister have to extend the inspection of retail outlets by health board inspectors given that much of the stock available in the Republic is manufactured in Northern Ireland? Milk from Northern Ireland is on sale in Sligo today. Is the Minister aware that a huge number of employees, particularly in the construction industry, cross the Border? Has he consulted the builders' federation on the importance of this matter? Is he also aware that the message can be got accross simply and effectively on local radio and in the local press? Much time has been lost as a result. Are retail stores being inspected to ensure stock is not on sale? Although instructions have been issued, has the Minister consulted RGDATA which represents retail grocers on this important matter?

What is the position with regard to veterinary practitioners who up to very recently, were carrying out herd tests? Are departmental veterinary practitioners still doing tests on herds throughout the country? It is important that such work should cease as a matter of urgency, if it has not already ceased.

In the event of cattle being moved from farms to factories for slaughter, what is the situation as regards requirements? Can on-farm REPS inspections be postponed and payments given in trust until retrospective inspections are done? Many people depend on these payments because of the crisis in farming of recent years, so it is important that payments are made in trust until things get back to normal. Where has the offal from sheep who have been slaughtered been rendered?

Deputy Timmins urged a greater degree of co-ordination between different Departments and different agencies, but we have 100% co-operation at the moment. Many Deputies have called for additional representation on the task force that has been set up, and we will take that into account and make sure it happens. We are arranging for advertisements during the next couple of days, to heighten the awareness of the general public and retailers in the street.

Deputy Dukes referred to last week's advertisements as being turgid and technical. We will have them in layman's language as far as that is possible this week, and try to arrange to have them on the front page. Deputy Upton spoke of the need to reduce the risk from rats and hedgehogs on farms and I will talk to veterinary experts in my Department when I return. It must be remembered that while we want to minimise risk, we have not had any confirmed cases in the country yet. We want to do everything possible to keep foot and mouth disease out.

Deputy Joe Higgins asked about mares coming into the country, as this is the breeding season. As the disease spread in the United Kingdom during the past week, we issued a directive banning all non-susceptible animals, including horses, from coming in to Ireland. No horses have come here since that directive was issued a couple of days ago. No favouritism or selectivity was used, as a number of stud farms receive mares from outside the country. The National Stud takes 60% to 65% of its mares from abroad.

I do not have an ante-post bet on Istabraq, and I hope many more people do not either. I strongly urge all horse owners, who have put in a great deal of preparation, not to go to Cheltenham or to send their horses. That particularly includes Istabraq. This will be disappointing and inconvenient for everybody. Istabraq has a huge following in Ireland, and many people might go to Cheltenham because he might run there. If the event at Cheltenham takes place, I publicly call on the trainer and owner of Istabraq not to send him there.

Deputy Sheehan spoke of enlisting the civil defence, which is a good suggestion, and I will take that up. He also spoke of traders, including those in west Cork in Castletownbere and Bantry. There is still a fair at Bantry, although I do not think there is an animal from one end of the square to the other. However, traders still come many of whom come from as far away as Scotland and the North. They are subject to the same regulations as everybody else, including certification of disinfection. There are not usually any live animals there, and hardware of various kinds and non-food items are sold.

Deputy Sheehan is probably one of the world's greatest authorities on seagulls.

If they had votes I would get about ten quotas.

The Mizen Head seagull is a renowned species. Birds can transmit this disease, and travel long distances, so the matter is being kept under review.

Deputy Perry asked who was monitoring food in retail outlets. The Food Safety Authority of Ireland is responsible for this. RGDATA and various retail outlets have been directly contacted by the Department.

As far as possible, I have availed of local radio and local media throughout the country. I have particularly tried to do this in Border counties where the problem is concentrated. It is a good medium of communication. REPS inspections have been stopped, but I will look at regulations, accountability and Irish and EU audit requirements to see if advance payments can be made. I hope this problem will not last too long, but if it does I will try to help farmers as they have to survive, and they have been through enough difficulties already.

Does the Minister have contingency plans to burn carcases in the awful event of an outbreak here? Has he given any consideration to a nation wide television campaign to heighten awareness even further? Have arrangements been made regarding the disinfection of shoes at religious ceremonies this weekend? Does the Minister think non-essential meetings should be called off? Has he considered mobilising the FCA?

Is the Minister aware that the Crufts dog show will take place in England this weekend? What advice would he give to breeders who have arranged to travel there? Will they be allowed to take their dogs and more importantly, if they go, will they be allowed to bring them back into the country?

Have we banned the cross-Border movement of cattle feeds like hay, silage and cereal products? There is a great deal of agricultural traffic at this time of year involved in sowing grain and in ploughing. Can this be strictly monitored? I am concerned that products would be moved across the Border without proper checks.

There is not much sowing in Border areas at the moment.

If this problem continues for some time, would it be appropriate to have an information leaflet distributed to every household? The last outbreak was in 1941, so not many people would remember it. It is important to inform the public why restrictions are being put in place, and why large gatherings of people are being discouraged. Is there a penalty for those who knowingly or wittingly import animals on to their lands from across the Border? Could grants, headage payments or REPS payments be revoked if people are found guilty of such an offence?

Most Deputies agree with the ban on public events. Living as I do three miles from the border with Armagh, I can tell the Minister that, because of the strength of sterling, the biggest danger is posed by thousands of people who come from the North to shop in Dundalk, Drogheda and other towns along the Border and the thousands of young people who attend discos and hotels over the weekend. Will this movement be stopped as it poses a big danger? Has the Minister recruited extra veterinary surgeons and, if so, are they deployed in the Border area? Will the Minister put many punters out of their misery by making an early decision on the Cheltenham racing festival? J. P. McManus does not have to be told about the national interest; his commitment to Ireland has been well demonstrated.

(Wexford): Given that his Department has this afternoon ordered the slaughtering of 1,300 sheep imported from Devon and rumours and innuendoes are sweeping the county, will the Minister make a statement clarifying the position in County Wexford? Can he account for the traceability of the sheep in question? Have they all been rounded up? Have they been in contact with sheep in the locality? Local people are of the view that there should be an Army presence at Rosslare Port to support the Garda and the Revenue Commissioners.

I support what Deputy Browne said about the situation in County Wexford, which is a cause of concern. People have become aware of this information, not only in County Wexford but elsewhere in the south east. The Minister should make a statement as soon as possible to clear up the matter. I appreciate that he has a difficult job to do, but farmers are worried. There is no room for a casual approach to the matter. It is clear that there was no emergency plan in place to deal with an outbreak of foot and mouth disease as farmers were unable to obtain disinfectant in many of the branches of Glanbia in County Kilkenny in order to adhere to the regulations laid down by the Minister.

I was worried when I heard the Minister say that he had known for one week that a farm in County Armagh was under suspicion. It took him one week to introduce restrictions. I do not know if there are restrictions in place in the rendering plant at which the animals in question were destroyed. That kind of statement does not engender confidence among producers and consumers about the manner in which the issue is being dealt. In spite of the difficult job the Minister has, I ask him to redouble his efforts and those of his staff and to take whatever action is necessary at ports and elsewhere to ensure these issues are dealt with.

The fact that there are rumours in County Wexford about the sheep imported from Devon is a clear indication that many are worried about this issue. The rumour that 1,300 sheep will be slaughtered has probably led everybody to believe that there is an outbreak of foot and mouth disease in County Wexford. That is the reason it is important to give the public the correct information as soon as possible.

The Minister is wrong to adopt a voluntary code of practice calling on people's goodwill not to travel to Cheltenham. In view of the scale of the crisis, that is not good enough. People must be forced to make decisions by the Department in the national interest.

Based on local knowledge and contact with my office in County Louth today I understand, given the proximity of the farm in Meigh, approximately four kilometres north of the Border, it is intended to establish an exclusion zone extending across the Border. If the exclusion zone has a radius of six kilometres, it will extend into County Louth. The Cooley Peninsula, which has a significant population of sheep, is in close proximity. Will the exclusion zone embrace all of the Cooley Peninsula which is bounded by the sea on one side and by the Border on the other? It is a mountainous area which, although mainly populated by sheep, is home to a significant number of wild animals, particularly wild deer and wild horses. The hazard posed by wild deer, in particular, is significant given that they are extremely mobile and travel significant distances. This matter needs to be addressed.

In south Armagh and north Louth a significant number deal in sheep and livestock. Has any effort been made to contact these individuals to establish their movements during the past month to six weeks? A number of persons in the area are involved in the transportation of livestock. Their movements also need to be traced.

Have the official and unofficial abattoirs in the area been identified and contact made with them to establish the number of slaughterings in the past month or so, and, more particularly, identify the locations from where the livestock came?

It is a unique feature of north Louth, south Armagh and south Down that veterinary prac titioners criss-cross the Border as part of their practice. Many vets on both sides of the Border visit farms North and South. This poses a serious hazard.

The children of some farming families north of the Border attend school in Dundalk. At least one parent inquired today if her daughter will be able to attend school in Dundalk if an exclusion zone is established. That matter needs to be addressed. If school children from a farming family north of the Border, particularly in the Forkhill area, travel south to school, there is a need to ensure their movements are checked as a matter of urgently.

Deputy McGahon is correct in pointing to the danger posed by the movement of people. There are a number of discos in Dundalk and along the Border at which many young people from the North and South congregate on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights on a regular basis. There is also the shopping phenomenon. With the strength of sterling, hundreds, perhaps thousands, travel south of the Border on a regular basis to shop, Dundalk in particular, where they come in contact with local people in Cooley and north Louth.

A number of tourism related projects, involving hill walkers and trekkers who regularly frequent the area, have been developed in south Armagh and north Louth. There is an urgent need to talk to those concerned to ensure they do not walk in the area until this matter has been cleared up.

I heard a speaker in the Seanad make the point that there is a suggestion that some animals from the farm in Meigh in south Armagh may have been brought South. That matter needs to be addressed, as, if true, the implications are obvious and serious. I rest my case.

Mr. Coveney

The movement of people seems to pose the primary threat in bringing the disease to this country. Does the Minister accept that we have reached the stage where every person travelling from the United Kingdom into Ireland should be required to complete an entry form giving details of the locations from which they have travelled and to which they are travelling, as is the norm when one enters the United States, New Zealand or Australia, to enable officials at airports and seaports to decide which persons need to avail of disinfection treatment? Everything appears to be on a voluntary basis. We are appealing to persons from rural areas who come to this country to go to the Department's offices at airports and seaports. A more pro-active approach should be taken and I ask the Minister to take this suggestion on board. There is no reason that people flying or sailing by ferry to Ireland should not have to fill out a small form giving details of where they are coming from, to where they are going and how long they plan to stay in the country.

In relation to the investigation taking place in Armagh, I am sure the Minister will correct me if I am wrong but I understand 20 sheep will be destroyed on a farm. These animals came from England as part of a batch of 200 sheep. Will the Minister confirm that the other 180 sheep have been located in Northern Ireland and that none of the animals has come south of the Border to this State?

Many people booked airline tickets to travel to the UK for the rugby match with Wales this weekend. It has emerged that some of the airlines, particularly Ryanair, are refusing to give refunds to the people who booked tickets. As a result, many of the people involved feel they must travel to the UK. Will the Minister consider intervening by contacting Ryanair and asking the company to change its policy in this regard in the national interest?

Regarding the major road development from Galway city, the gas pipeline off the west coast, the electricity network improvements in south east Galway and visits by Dúchas officials to farms, is it the case that these developments and visits will be curtailed until there is more information on the outbreak of the disease?

Deputy Hogan asked about Wexford. I gave the House those details before the Deputy came into the House. There were two consignments of sheep, comprising approximately 900 animals, in addition to approximately 400 of the farmer's own sheep. At the meeting of the standing veterinary committee yesterday, a decision was taken to advise member states that in such cases, even in the absence of suspicion, susceptibility or clinical signs, the animals should be slaughtered as a precautionary measure. This will happen tomorrow, but there is no suspicion in relation to those sheep. They are being slaughtered as an ultra precautionary measure.

I did not like the tone of the lecture given by Deputy Hogan to me, the departmental officials and many other officials throughout the country who have worked extremely hard in addressing this matter over the past six days. They have put in an extraordinary amount of time and effort and will continue to do so.

Is disinfectant available to the farmers?

I spoke this morning to Ned O'Sullivan of Glanbia in relation to that matter. My information is that there is an adequate supply of disinfectant.

That is not the case. The Minister is misinformed.

That is my information. Deputy Stanton referred to the GAA and the need to ensure that it co-operates. The organisation is co-operating in every possible way. If it holds matches, it must have adequate and comprehen sive disinfectant facilities at venues. I again urge all organisations and public bodies to cancel activities where people congregate.

I did not refer to the GAA. I specifically mentioned religious bodies.

Is the Deputy suggesting that Masses should be discontinued?

No, but it is essential to take precautions at places where people congregate, especially in Border areas.

I stated that on many occasions, and I have asked relevant bodies to cancel events at which people would gather. If that involves religious ceremonies or other events, that should be done. I will take on board the point about the FCA and consider if it can be used. The Army is available. When the Garda Síochána recommend that additional personnel should be used, the Army is available.

Deputy Deenihan asked about the Crufts dog show. The same position applies to non-susceptible animals. We have advised people not to bring animals into or take them out of the country. The Irish Kennel Club was to hold a dog show at the RDS on St. Patrick's Day. We spoke to representatives of the organisation and asked them to cancel the event. It would be desirable for people to do the same in relation to the Crufts show.

If people take their dogs out of the country, will they be able to bring them back in?

We are recommending that they do not attend the show.

This point is important for many people. Will they be able to bring their dogs back in? Is the answer "yes" or "no"? The Minister should make a decision.

The position is the same at that applying to non-susceptible species. Any traffic in these animals is a risk which should not be taken.

Does that mean "no"?

We do not know how matters will develop between now and the Crufts dog show. However, there is every possibility that the animals will not be allowed back in and I am asking people not to take dogs to the Crufts dog show and not to attend it.

Deputy Kelleher asked about hay and straw. The transport and importation of hay and straw is not allowed. The Deputy also said an information leaflet about the disease should be widely circulated. A number of Members referred to the clinical signs of the disease and information that would be important in that regard. Such a leaflet is being prepared and will be made widely available.

Deputy McGahon raised a number of matters, including discos. In the main, most people are responsible. However, a small number take risks and, in some cases, deliberately flout the regulations. Deputy Browne raised the case of a farmer in Wexford. As I said earlier, there is no problem with those sheep. They are not susceptible or showing any signs of the disease. However, in view of the recommendation of the standing veterinary committee, they will be slaughtered tomorrow. The Deputy also asked if the Army could be used in Rosslare. I will consider that suggestion and if it is recommended by the scientific experts, I will ensure it happens.

In relation to ensuring people can be tracked and traced, Deputy Coveney said we should insist that people fill out entry forms. I will consider his suggestion. This is an emergency and that might add to the effort to establish where people might be or from where they have come. It would be helpful and it is a good suggestion. Regarding the Deputy's other point, a total of 26 sheep are involved. Given the Border and the fact that it involves another jurisdiction, we are working hand in hand with the veterinary authorities and the RUC in the North and our investigation unit to try to get a clear picture. Those investigations are ongoing.

Deputy Haughey raised the issue of people who purchased airline tickets to enable them attend the match in Cardiff. He said that at least one airline is insisting on retaining the value of those tickets. I have asked the Department of Public Enterprise to examine this matter and I understand it is pursuing it with the airline in question.

Deputy Michael Kitt asked about workers that go through farm land and farms in the preparation of pipelines. We have been in discussion with Bord Gáis and it is scaling down its activity. In any place where there is commonage and farm, it is seeking to stop that activity while there is an emergency.

I will allow a final brief supplementary question from the two main spokespersons if they so wish.

Would the Minister agree that we would not be able to unscramble the egg, and that if there is one case of foot and mouth disease, it would be a catastrophe for the country. Therefore, would he also agree that he should forget the softly, softly hit-and-miss approach to appeals to everybody to act sensibly in the national interest? Is it not time to be more direct and issue mandatory directions to restrict people moving within and without the State? It would be difficult and inconvenient but it is necessary. Yesterday when we said this here, some people almost guffawed. The time has come. Tomorrow might be too late.

Is there a contingency or emergency plan in place, in the unfortunate and, I hope, unlikely event, that one case of foot and mouth disease is established? What contingency and emergency plans are in place? Would such a contingency plan need to define the restriction of movement of people, animals and transport? Would it not include defined exclusion and buffer zones? Would it not need to incorporate measures to destroy animals? What was done with the animals which have been destroyed to date? What additional training has been given to veterinarians involved, some of whom, no more than many people, would not have seen a case of foot and mouth disease?

Deputy Haughey made a valid point. Many people cannot go abroad for various sporting events and they are right to stay at home, but now they are being penalised by airlines which will not refund their tickets. When we are calling upon the general public to do what is right, is it not more appropriate for the Taoiseach to do what is right and cancel his visit to Wales tomorrow?

I asked the Minister to expand the task force involved in this. Yesterday evening in the Dáil I called for an interdepartmental approach because that is what it entails. Would it not also be appropriate in the national interest to request, as we did yesterday evening, that the Taoiseach address the nation in an emergency bulletin in the media at 6 p.m. or 9.30 p.m. on the importance of doing what is right at this point. Emergency measures should be taken now and they should be mandatory.

When is it expected that the results of the tests on the animals on the farm at Meigh, County Armagh will be available? The Minister indicated that he will have sent to the offices of his Department a code or handbook of practice which they should follow at this stage. Will he undertake to make that available also to veterinary practitioners? Will he add to it, the information on the symptoms of this disease and the various susceptible elements from the British Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food because it is very clear? Will he also ensure that all of that information for the veterinarians and for the officials of his Department is made available for publication in a place where farmers can have access to it?

What is the level of involvement of the Army on the Border at present? Will the Minister agree that, in view of this problem in Northern Ireland, Army involvement needs to be substantially increased?

Will he consider giving guidelines to local authorities in order that they will know how to respond to groups of farmers who want to provide disinfection facilities at strategic points in their areas? We may get to the point where we will require farmers to have disinfection at every entry to their farms. There are farmers all over the country prepared to put disinfection facilities at strategic points in their areas, but the county councils do not know what to say to them when they make this proposal. Will the Minister ensure that somebody in the Department knows what the county councils can do in that case and tells them what they may do. People want to take action to avoid the spread of this disease.

Will the Minister issue an official line to the effect that it is contra-indicated that anybody involved in farming or the food trade here should attend the National Food and Meat Exhibition in Manchester, which takes place between 11 and 13 March and where there is usually a large Irish attendance?

I do not agree with Deputy Penrose and these were not softly spoken directives issued over the past six days. These directives are creating inconvenience for people, but they are co-operating. They are, in 99.8% of cases, extremely co-operative and are availing of the help lines in the Department.

In case I forget, some people asked about the Department's website. I will have a look at that when I go back to my office because my understanding is that it is up-to-date. I will make sure it is up-to-the-minute because people use websites. Deputy Dukes referred to the UK website, which is comprehensive, and my understanding is that the Department's website is full of information and is also up-to-date. We will avail of the popular media, and especially the agricultural media like the Irish Farmers' Journal, to inform people.

Last week when the confirmed case occurred in Britain, I asked my Department to look at the situation if we had a confirmed case here and to put a contingency plan in place, and that is being worked on at present.

Deputy Penrose asked about training. After the outbreaks in 1941, 1967 and 1981, the Department liaised with the British authorities and since last week they have done so again in this case.

The Deputy suggested that the Taoiseach make a national broadcast on the matter. I will take that up at tomorrow morning's meeting of the task force.

Deputy Dukes asked when the result of the test would be known and my experts tell me they will be known in 96 hours.

From now?

From today.

He asked that a handbook, including symptoms, clinical signs, etc., be made available and issued widely, especially to veterinary surgeons. He also asked about local authorities. The vast majority of local authorities employ veterinary officers and I will make sure there is communication with local authorities and that a standardised procedure on disinfection within their jurisdictions is made available to them.

Regarding the Army, we made requests on the deployment of the Army and the number of per sonnel involved will need to be scaled up because of the suspect case adjacent to the Border.

I will also take on board Deputy Duke's suggesting regarding the Manchester exhibition because of its location and because there may be a risk involved. I will ask people and companies to desist from going there.

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