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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Jul 2001

Vol. 540 No. 3

Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2000 [ Seanad ] : Report and Final Stages.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 5, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:

"1.–No provision of this Act relating to changes in spending limits for a general election shall have effect in relation to the general election held next following the passing of this Act.".

We need to remind ourselves where this Bill came from. This Bill first appeared on the legislative programme when the House returned after last summer's recess. Suddenly, on the list of legislation promised from the Department of the Environment and Local Government, was a Bill called the Electoral (Amendment) Bill.

I questioned the Taoiseach on a number of occasions about the purpose of this Bill. I was told innocently that it was a Bill to put candidates' photographs on ballot papers, to introduce electronic voting at elections, and a number of other similar innocuous changes to the electoral laws. I pursued the matter and asked for a briefing. I was given a briefing which amounted to a page and a half which repeated something similar but made no reference at all to what was going to be the main purpose of this legislation – to increase the amount of money Fianna Fáil could spend in a general election.

We did not discover that this was the purpose of the legislation until it was published just before Christmas. Contained in the miscellaneous section of the Bill was the provision that the maximum spending limit per candidate at an election was to be increased by about 50%. The original levels were set in 1997 and were £14,000 for a three-seat constituency, £17,000 for a four-seat constituency and £20,000 for a five-seat constituency. They were now to be increased to £20,000, £25,000 and £30,000, respectively. The only party which is going to benefit from this is the party that has raised the money, and that is Fianna Fáil. I know that in responses to criticisms I have made previously about this Bill, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government has responded by saying that everybody can spend the same amount. That is nonsense. You cannot spend it unless you have it.

It is quite clear that what has been happening over the last number of years is that Fianna Fáil has continued in its traditional way of raising money from the corporate sector. It now has a big war chest and it wants to raise the limit of the amount that can be spent in a general election. I have tabled amendments elsewhere on this Report Stage which are seeking to reverse that and seeking to confine the spending limits to the amount that was originally intended in the 1997 Bill.

The purpose of the 1997 Act was to put into place a regime whereby candidates and political parties would be able to contest elections on a fair and relatively equitable basis. We look at other countries and send parliamentary observers to look at their elections on the basis that we want fair and free elections in other countries. The fairness of an election is also determined by the amount that can be spent by candidates at that election. If one candidate or one group of candidates can spend large amounts of money, they are in an advantaged position over those candidates who cannot do so.

One of the reasons the Labour Party has traditionally remained as the third political party and the third force in Irish politics is that throughout the history of the State it has had to contest elections at an unfair disadvantage as against parties such as Fianna Fáil which were funded by corporate funding and had larger war chests. That is what this Bill is about.

What makes it worse is that the Bill proposes that these new spending limits are to come into operation at the next election. That places parties at an additional disadvantage because everybody else, apart from the parties in Government, was of the belief that the next general election would be contested on the basis of the limits set in 1997. It is an open secret that parties and candidates, in anticipation of a general election, had been making preliminary preparations for an elections for some time. Nobody in the House or outside was aware of an intention on the part of the Government to raise the limits until the Bill was published last Christmas. However, the Government was aware of it. We know now, because Magill magazine published documents or extracts from documents it had received under the Freedom of Information Act, that as far back as February 2000 the Minister for the Environment gave an instruction to his officials to include this provision in the Bill. If that instruction was given in February 2000 it is fair to assume it was being hatched for some time. The parties in Government, or at least Fianna Fáil, had been aware for the past 18 months that it was the intention to raise the spending limits for a general election. It was hatched and put together but the Bill did not appear until December 2000. The very minimum the House should do is ensure the new limits do not apply at the next general election. If they are to apply at the next general election there will be a double disadvantage for the Opposition. There is a disadvantage in terms of spending capacity for those of us in parties who do not have the capacity to raise large wads of money. That applies also to Independent candidates. There is a disadvantage because we are being asked to contest the next election on the basis of rules which were known to the Government side for 18 months but which were not known to anybody else until the Bill was published. That disadvantage has practical implications because parties or candidates who were making preliminary preparations for an election and who were making arrangements about the kind of posters and literature they might, design work etc. made those plans on the assumption that the spending limits would be as set out in the 1997 legislation. There could be an election before the House resumes. The limits are being changed in the last lap before a general election but they should not apply to the next general election. It is not unusual to put a stay on the implementation of some provisions of legislation. Ministers use statutory instruments to commence certain sections or not to commence certain sections of legislation.

If the Government was of the view that the limits were too low, I ask the Minister to accept the amendment and let us see how we fare at the next election. If the purpose of the legislation was as I suspect, to confer an advantage on Fianna Fail at the next election then the Minister of State, who has been a critic and an opponent of Fianna Fáil during much of his political career, will turn down this amendment. I look forward to a favourable reply.

This amendment, which arises out of our discussion on Committee Stage in respect of an amendment which has been resubmitted as amendment No. 30, seeks to prevent the Government increasing the spending limits proposed in 1997. I oppose the increase for the good reasons outlined by Deputy Gilmore because there was no demand for them from either side and certainly no public demand. Also I felt it put us back on that treadmill of fundraising and dependence on corporate donations and that grey area which has meshed us in tribunals and brought politics into disrepute. It is something we were trying to get away from. Why did the Government use a Bill which was supposed to about putting photographs on ballot papers and introducing electronic voting to introduce by the backdoor this increase in spending? I was opposed to the increase in spending. The timing of the increase is unforgivable. The reality is that those spending limits set in 1997 were for the next general election. They have not yet been tested. There is no way of knowing whether they are adequate. The reality is that one always tries to spend the most one can. If the limit is low, the amount that can be spent is low. We would all get used to it, irrespective of how difficult it might be in the beginning and would lower our sights and reduce the glossiness of our posters and so on. We would have got used to it and we would have survived and it would have been fair competition. It is the timing of the change to which I object. There has been much discussion about the unconstitutionality of other amendments to the Bill. This is the element of the Bill which I regard as unconstitutional. The two Government parties are playing by a new set of rules which the rest of us did not hear about. We have all done our fund raising and made our plans. We knew exactly how much we could spend at the next election and planned accordingly. Others who knew the rules made other plans and have ordered the glossy posters. There cannot be a fair game where if one does not know the rules one will be the automatic loser. If this amendment is not accepted and the new limits are operational before the next election it will definitely be challenged. I ask the Minister to seriously consider accepting the amendment.

I support Deputy Gilmore's amendment No. 1. He reflects on the intent of the Bill to aid Fianna Fáil's electoral adventures. What Deputy Gilmore failed to state is that in another section, not only is it kinked in one respect but other elements of this Bill seek to disadvantage the party I represent by further curtailing the opportunity to legitimately raise funds. It is important to recognise that we do not have a level playing field and we will not have one. If amendment No. 1 is not adopted, we will have a situation, particularly in the four and five seat constituencies, where an inordinate spending limit will apply in relation to the larger parties, especially Fianna Fáil, as against a sole and solitary Deputy like me and others of my colleagues standing in such constituencies across the State. Invariably, the larger parties will field three and even four candidates, depending on the strategy they adopt. In Cavan-Monaghan, for instance, that would mean a potential spending limit of the order of £120,000 for one set of opinions, as against a £30,000 limit applying to me. I would not be able to raise £30,000 anyway. We have a further disadvantage in that regard in terms of being able to present our case in the various ways we do at election time. I support the amendment and urge the Minister of State to accept it.

As Deputies have outlined, the amendment proposes that the election expenditure limits in the Bill will not have effect for the next general election. Section 1 provides that the Act shall come into operation on such day or days as the Minister may appoint by order or orders. The election expenditure limits are intended to assist candidates meet expenditure at the next general election or a by-election if one should occur before the general election, without the need to be constantly worried, during the election period, about committing a criminal offence if the limit is exceeded. The existing limits have been used at each by-election since 1998 and we know that two of the parties involved in Opposition have had some difficulties, in one way or another, with those limits.

The new limits were well heralded by the Minister, Deputy Dempsey, as far back as 1997 when the Electoral Act, 1997, then the Electoral Bill, 1994, was considered by the Oireachtas. He was then in Opposition. While accepting the principle of expenditure limits, he asked that the then proposed limits be reconsidered as they were not adequate for parties which nominated more than one candidate in a constituency. The Minister did not make any concession on the proposed limits to meet the expressed concerns. The limits now proposed in the Bill by the present Minister, Deputy Dempsey, are in line with the limits which he formerly proposed as spokesman on environment and local government for his party. The new limits will not provide one additional pound to any political party. The proposed limits are the same for every candidate. The only reason any party would be entitled to a larger expenditure increase arises from the number of candidates which that party decides to nominate. There is nothing in the legislation to prevent the Labour Party nominating the same number of candidates as other parties. If the present Labour Party nominates the same number of candidates as it and the former DL party did at the 1997 general election, it will be entitled to spend an extra £440,000. As I have stated at other Stages of the Bill, the then Labour Party Minister for the Environment said in 1997 that the amounts he proposed then were not expected to be written in stone.

To sum up, there is a view that the current limits will not be adequate at the general election. After the next general election the Minister does not wish to see elected Members being investigated by the Public Offices Commission and the DPP in relation to moderate expenditure over the limits proposed by the Opposition. There will be tough competition at the general election and, in the heat of the campaign, candidates could easily exceed the current limits. We have seen some instances of that in the by-elections held to date. It would place a huge onus on candidates and election managers to remain within the low levels proposed by the Opposition.

I have been a member of a small party which has run two candidates in a number of constituencies. There is nothing to stop the Labour Party running more than one candidate if it feels disadvantaged in terms of expenditure limits by running only one candidate. That is a party policy decision. Hearing Sinn Féin speak of not having enough money, many people would take that with a grain of salt, having regard to the quite extraordinary sums of money that party seems to be in a position to spend.

I do not accept the amendment. All of the issues were well debated on Committee Stage. Many of Deputy Gilmore's arguments are quite spurious and very pointed politically, seeking to create an image of money being transferred to one party to give it an advantage over others when, in fact, it is open to any party. My party does not have access to large funds. We have to run fundraising functions. We have two limitations in that regard, namely our own level of success and the overall limit laid down in legislation. People who are convinced they have a message worth selling can readily go out and raise funds.

By way of reply to the debate—

The Deputy has two minutes on this occasion. He will have the right of reply. Deputy Ó Caoláin also wishes to speak.

I will avail of the two minutes on the understanding that I can reply later. If my comments were politically pointed, it is only because this Bill is politically motivated. This Bill is about conferring advantage. The Minister of State spoke about the Labour Party running one candidate in a constituency. When contesting a constituency where our party has two candidates, both of whom are setting out to win, this Bill would, in theory, allow us to spend £60,000 on that campaign. We will not spend a fraction of that. We will not even spend a fraction of the £40,000 allowed under the 1997 legislation. I also heard a Deputy from the Government side of the House say, on a radio programme recently, that he would not ever spend anything near the 1997 limit.

Where has the idea come from that the 1997 limits would be too low? The Minister of State links it to the by-elections. The by-election card has been played a number of times in this debate although, to be fair to the Minister of State, he has not overplayed it this time as was done on previous occasions. First, the Public Offices Commission has not pursued any complaint about the by-elections. Second, as most people would acknowledge, what happens at a by election is that effectively, candidates replicate what happens in a general election, albeit with a smaller number of candidates. The only argument that would give rise to is perhaps, that there should be a different regime for by-elections. The 1997 limits have not been tested at all in an election. We should at least allow them to be tested.

In response to the Minister of State's answer to the initial case put, it is important to note here that this Bill is not only about allowing for an increased advantage to those parties who field a number of candidates. The Minister of State spoke of funding for Sinn Féin. Clearly, this Bill has, as one of its core intents, a section designed to curtail the fundraising opportunities which Sinn Féin has successfully exploited in recent years – and I emphasise in recent years – starting from a very low base. Let us also face the reality. I am a sole Deputy in this House. I know the very small level that the organisation with which I work directly in my constituency has enjoyed from that intake. The reality is that this party contests all elections in this jurisdiction, the Westminster elections and the Assembly and local elections in the North of Ireland. The democratic commitment and cost consequential on that involvement by Sinn Féin is significantly greater than is realised. As the only all-Ireland party on the island, we incur significant expenditure in ensuring we put our message forward throughout the length and breadth of the island. We are not comparing like with like. It is also very important that if the Minister is serious about accommodating equal opportunity for all, he agrees to accept amendment No. 23 which I have tabled and which would delete the offending section which seeks to curtail the opportunity of the party I am proud to represent.

I remind the Minister that the response he gave to this amendment is precisely the same as that which he gave on Committee Stage to amendments in respect of the donation limits. This amendment is quite different in that it refers to the timing of the introduction of the measure, which undoubtedly the Government will put through. It is changing the rules after the game has started but only telling one of the teams of the change. That will be found to be unconstitutional, and I ask the Minister to think very carefully about ignoring the amendment.

As I indicated in my reply, the intention is on the record since 1997. One point has not been raised by the Deputies opposite who have referred to the expenditure limits. The limits apply to the aggregate expenditure of parties in relation to their number of candidates. The headquarters spend on the election campaign will be taken into account, so the full amount mentioned here will not be available to each candidate in each constituency. The spend by the party at national level for the national campaign must be deducted from what is available to each candidate. Therefore, this cannot be compared with a by-election, which is held in one constituency in a confined area with no national spend. The costs of a quarter page advertisement in a national newspaper will quickly make a big hole in these sums of money. We should be realistic, therefore. Costs are advancing and to put in the low limits would result in quite a large number of elected Deputies finding themselves subsequent to the election in serious difficulties. I do not think the Deputies opposite are living in the real world in relation to the amendment they have tabled, and I cannot accept it.

The Bill seriously reverses the legislation which was put in place by my colleague, Deputy Howlin, when we were in Government, which was aimed at providing some degree of fairness in the contest of elections. In replying to my earlier remarks the Minister said that Deputy Dempsey, the author of this Bill, or at least of this provision, has been consistent in his view on this matter and that these limits now proposed are those he argued for in 1997. If the Minister is being consistent and if he has had a continuing wish to change the provision in the 1997 Act, why was it not included in the programme for Government of 1997? Why did we not hear anything about it from the Minister from 1997 until the Bill was published at the end of 2000? Why at no stage in any discussion we have had in the House relating to electoral or related matters, or during opportunities given to him on Question Time, did he not tell the House that it was his intention to reverse the limits in the legislation introduced by Deputy Howlin and enacted by the House? Why was this kept a secret and only released at the last minute when the Bill was published at the end of 2000? Why, despite all the times I questioned it from the first moment it was indicated that an electoral Bill would be introduced, was no answer given at any stage by the Taoiseach or the Minister indicating it was on their minds to increase the spending limits, even though those questions were asked after the Government had made a decision and the Minister had given an instruction to his officials to include this provision in the Bill? There has been a history of concealment by the Government on this matter; the plan was hatched to increase the limits so more could be spent by the party at the next election, but it was decided to tell nobody about it as to do so would mean they would not have had the same advantage. It was kept quiet until the Bill was published.

We have a double jeopardy for the Opposition. We have the reversal of legislation which we introduced in Government and which was intended to provide a fair basis for the contest of elections and to end the scandal whereby corporate money being received by Fianna Fáil could buy election results on polling day, and it is being done in a way which disadvantages the Opposition by having concealed that information from it until the Bill was published.

If this measure is in place for the next general election, it will be fought on an unfair basis, with one party being able to spend large amounts of money which it has collected from the corporate sector over the past four years while other parties have not been in a position to raise that kind of money. The two parties which constitute the Government will be contesting the election on the basis of knowledge they had about spending limits 18 months in advance of the rest of the House. That is not a fair contest and the elections will not be fair. This is yet another example of the damage the Government is doing to democracy in the last couple of weeks of this session. The Labour Party will not support that, and I appeal to every Member to vote in favour of the amendment I am putting to ensure the next election is contested on some kind of fair basis and not on the basis of the kind of distorted advantage the Government is seeking to give to itself.

Very strange that if it had all that money the party headquarters had to be sold.

Question put.

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Farrelly, John.Fitzgerald, Frances.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael.

Howlin, Brendan.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shortall, Róisín.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.

Níl

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.

Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donoghue, John.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Stagg and Bradford; Níl, Deputies M. Ahern and S. Brennan.
Amendment declared lost.

Amendments Nos. 3, 23 and 28 are related to amendment No. 2 and they may be taken together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 6, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following:

3.–A political party, the President, a member of the either House of the Oireachtas, of the European Parliament, of a local authority or of Údarás na Gaeltachta, or a candidate for any of the said offices, shall not directly or indirectly accept a donation for political (including electoral) purposes from any person (including a body corporate) other than a Dáil elector.".

This brings us to the second core issue in this Bill, the funding of political parties and politicians. This amendment seeks to ban corporate funding of political parties and politicians and to limit funding to Dáil electors. Last May 12 months, the Labour Party proposed a Private Members' Bill to ban the corporate funding of political parties and politicians. It did so against the background of revelations from the tribunals which have deeply disturbed the public and which have had a deeply undermining effect on democracy. It is no longer acceptable to the people that corporate entities should be paying money to political parties and politicians. We know from the history of the funding of politics here that corporate donations and corporate funding was very much part of that to a greater or lesser extent depending on the party. It is no longer acceptable to the public.

A majority of Members want to see it end. All the Opposition parties are opposed to continued corporate funding of politics. A number of the Minister's colleagues on the Government benches are also in favour of banning corporate funding. Deputy Fleming, for example, has spoken about this as has the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs. A number of Deputies on the Government side are opposed to continued corporate funding of politics.

In this Bill, the Government proposes to limit corporate funding to £5,000 in the case of a party and £2,000 in the case of an individual. The Labour Party's view is that it should be completely banned. This country requires an action to be taken by the Houses of the Oireachtas which puts beyond any doubt and any equivocation that there can continue to be a financial link between corporate business and politics. The majority of the people believe that if contributions are made by companies, there must be some quid pro quo. While individual Members argue that is not the case, that they are bona fides contributions to political parties and that irrespective of the contribution, Deputies, Ministers or office holders do their job with integrity and are not influenced by whatever contributions are made to the political party, the fact is that right now it is the public belief that if the piper is paid, the tune is called. We have to be unequivocal in putting an end to it.

It is going to end anyway. It is only a matter of time before the complete ban on the corporate funding of politics and politicians is enshrined in our law. I appeal to the Minister and the Government side not to continue to inflict damage on the body politic of this country by continuing to hold on to corporate funding of politics.

It is damaging and should be ended. The Labour Party Private Members' Bill was passed unanimously on Second Stage in May 2000 and the acceptance in principle of the need to ban corporate funding should be reflected in this Bill. The Government obstructed the Labour Party Bill on Committee Stage, although the Bill had been referred to the Select Committee on Environment and Local Government, on the basis that it intended to introduce its own measures in the Bill before the House.

The measures contained in this Bill are not even a half-way house. Action must be taken to restore confidence in politics. To say that limits of £5,000 per party and £2,000 per individual are being imposed will not convince anyone, particularly when many people will never in their lives have those sums in credit in their bank accounts. My proposal, which the Government should accept, seeks to end the corporate funding of politics and the Government should accept it.

I wish to comment on amendment No. 3 in my name which I have changed since it was discussed on Committee Stage as the Minister suggested a particular aspect could be unconstitutional. I have changed limiting donations to Dáil electors to any individual. The main thrust of my amendment is to end corporate donations.

Fine Gael has already renounced corporate donations and has placed itself at some disadvantage by so doing. However, we felt it was important to publicly extricate ourselves from the grey area of interdependency with the business sector and we hoped we would encourage other parties to do likewise. Almost all of us have in the past depended on corporate donations which we accepted without feeling in any way compromised. The position has changed utterly in recent years and we discussed the extent of this change this morning during the debate on the Flood tribunal. Corporate donations are not necessarily compromising but they can be and the public perception is that they are. We are aware of cases in which such donations were compromising.

Public perception is what matters most now because people's confidence in the democratic process has been seriously undermined. We must not merely tinker with the amounts involved although I accept the Government has considerably reduced the limits. At one point, a limit of £20,000 was suggested but that has decreased to £5,000. We must completely extricate ourselves from reliance on corporate donations. It is not merely a matter of changing the rules, we must change the entire way in which we do business.

The Bill contains proposals for substantial increases in State funding for political parties from which all parties have in the past shied away for a variety of reasons. The public is now ready to accept State funding. People realise that the democratic process must be funded and must choose between the old way and the new way. They are sick of the old system and want us to move towards the completely transparent funding of democracy. There is no more transparent way in which to do this than to use taxpayers' money for which we are all ultimately accountable. The quid pro quo of public acceptance of State political funding is that any other form of funding must be abandoned. We cannot have half measures and opt for a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Corporate donations will be banned sooner or later but this should happen now. I urge the Minister to accept amendment No. 3.

I wish to record my opposition to amendment No. 2 and my support for amendments Nos. 3 and 28. This issue opens up a whole new vista for many people. Amendment No. 23 in my name seeks the deletion of section 49 which proposes to exclude everyone but Irish citizens from contributing to the political endeavours of the political party of their choice in this jurisdiction. We must recognise the historical displacement of generations of people who have been keen participants as opposed to mere observers or spectators in the unfolding of and, hopefully, irreversible drive towards a real and lasting peace on and between these islands.

The thrust of amendment No. 2 and that of the original text and intent of this Bill, based on the original Labour Party Bill, is to deny these people the opportunity to contribute in a practical way to the politics of their choice. We must acknowledge their enormous contribution and recognise their role in establishing contact with and securing the critical intervention of the former President of the United States. It is not only the displaced generations of Irish people in the US who have warmly embraced the new opportunity for peace and invested in a new political dispensation on this island. Members of the Irish diaspora in Britain, Australia, Europe and elsewhere have also done so. These people have been denied their right to vote and the debate which has been ongoing for years has never focused on decision making.

Those displaced in recent decades should have been afforded the opportunity to continue to exercise their franchise in the same way as many other democracies accommodate their citizens overseas. These people have been denied their right to reach their natural potential as citizens in this land because of the failed economic policies of successive Governments. Having already been denied their right to vote, they are now to be denied the right to contribute to building a new political dispensation on this island. It is open to everyone to appeal and reach out to the Irish diaspora for support and Sinn Féin has done so successfully. When compared with the major Government party the figures are not, in real terms, of the order implied by the exaggerated tones of some media commentators. Sinn Féin has been successful in that and it must be acknowledged that has been an important contribution.

What we must address is the cutting off of the role and the hold the corporate body has on the political destinies of this and future Administrations. I acknowledge that Deputy Olivia Mitchell has amended her position in amendment No. 3 and that is why I give it my wholehearted support. Deputy Gilmore's amendment No. 28 equally seeks to address the issue of putting an end to the role of corporate funding and the control and influence of big business in the political decision making in this land. That is a positive and worthwhile objective.

Under the guise of addressing corporation donations, it is wrong to seek to cut off Irish citizens and those who are further out generationally, who do not have an immediate claim or who have not gone through the paper work required for gaining Irish citizenship, who have made contributions to all of the political parties represented in this debate without exception. That is a factual position. This is part of maintaining the ties. People do not want to cut the umbilical cord that holds them to the land of their birth or the land of the birth of their parents or grandparents. That is a good thing. It has stood this country in great stead on many levels. It is sad that much of the broad thrust of recent legislation excludes, debars or states some people cannot stand for election or stand for election for mayor or cathaoirleach, or make a contribution. This negative and destructive energy that seems to have dominated the thrust of legislation in the recent past is depressing. There is little of a positive nature that truly seeks to include, involve and to bring in from the margins, reflected in any of the legislation we have had to address in the recent past. This is another example of one of the core deficiencies in the thinking behind the drafting of this legislation. It reflects another body of people to be left out, excluded and disqualified.

I strongly oppose amendment No. 2, I support amendments Nos. 3 and 28 and I recommend amendment No. 23 in my name to the Minister of State to ensure we allow for the continued contribution of people who have a genuine interest in the future based on peace, progress and prosperity for all who view this island as home.

This is possibly the most important amendment to the legislation, which has been something of a disaster from the start given there is a large number of amendments and we do not have time to debate them.

I wanted to speak on this amendment. I am particularly surprised by the comments of my Sinn Féin colleague. I understand he opposes the Labour Party amendment in the name of my colleague, Deputy Gilmore. I do not know how anyone can say corporate contributions from the United States, Canada, Australia or Great Britain can be given to Sinn Féin or any other party on the basis that they are a contribution towards the peace process and at the same time say corporate donations should not be given to assist a political party in an election campaign. This is new thinking. That would need to be debated in the broadest sense because contributions from the United States to political parties have always been the subject not only of suspicion regarding the support of political parties such as Fianna Fáil and, in particular, Sinn Féin for the political process and what those funds are designated for. There is a double barrelled reason corporate contributions or donations from the United States should cease at the same time as donations from corporate organisations should be barred in the Republic of Ireland. I cannot see how one could say corporate donations should cease to all political parties, which is something I have always believed, and at the same time say it is all right if corporate donations are given to Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin or any other political party from the United States.

Will the Deputy allow me to intervene?

I did not interrupt the Deputy. I am only replying to his contribution.

The Deputy is not doing that.

There should be an even playing pitch. Sinn Féin should not be allowed to have corporate donations from the United States while at the same time we are seeking to debar the Labour Party and all other political parties from receiving corporate donations in the Republic of Ireland. That would be totally and utterly inconsistent with what we are trying to achieve in this legislation. There can be only one even playing pitch. The amendment proposes that corporate donations should cease, whether they be from the United States, Australia, UK or here to Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, the Labour Party or any other party. The State should fund the political organisation of this State in a democratic way based on the numerical strength of the political parties involved. This is the most important amendment to this legislation. I would be surprised and disappointed if our colleague from Sinn Féin were to vote against the Labour Party amendment.

Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 propose that only donations from a Dáil elector or an individual can be accepted. Other donations, whether from corporate or incorporated bodies, would be prohibited. The Bill provides for limit ing donations to political parties and third parties to £5,000 and £2,000 for individuals.

In so far as amendment No. 2 is concerned, it would not be feasible to restrict donors to Dáil electors. Electors who are not Dáil electors but who are eligible to vote at European Parliament and local elections should also be entitled to make a donation to a political party or a candidate. I do not know how one can make the distinction that seems to have been made here.

As I stated at some length on other Stages, I do not accept that it is practical or feasible to distinguish between corporate or non-corporate donations. I do not think it is fair to compare the current position with that which existed in the past which may have led to the events being disclosed in Dublin Castle in connection with a few individuals. The regulatory context in which we operate here today is substantially different from that which obtained when those events took place. The disclosure requirements that are now in operation would have assisted in highlighting or in preventing some of the matters, if not all of them, being investigated by the tribunals.

The Government's proposals in the Bill on limiting donations for political purposes will provide an open and transparent system for all and that is the important thing we have achieved. Some Deputies acknowledged on Second Stage that the Government had moved towards their parties' position in this matter and that has been acknowledged here today.

I believe the public will agree that the Government's proposals are the proper way to go forward and arguments about whether a cheque is a personal or business one is not the real issue. The real issue is openness, accountability and disclosure.

While respecting the Labour Party policy on this matter, I ask it to consider that other parties differ from it. The Labour Party policies are not infallible, nor does it have absolute righteousness on its side, as I said on Committee Stage.

If that was the case, why did the Labour Party not ban corporate donations when bringing in the Electoral Act in 1997? I note Fine Gael said 12 months ago in a published document that it does not believe it is possible to distinguish between corporate and individual donations and the Government could not agree more with that. The legal advice we received from the Attorney General also agrees with that.

Contributing to the funds of political parties is a legitimate practice, whether one is an individual putting £1 in a collection plate, a trade union sponsoring a candidate or an industrialist making a corporate donation. Political parties perform an essential function in a democratic society and it is in society's interests that they should have sources to carry out that function effectively, as effective political parties are essential to a healthy democracy.

While the size of proposed donation limits is a matter for political debate, the Government does not accept that there should be a ban on corpor ate donations. That was the considered view of Fine Gael until it recently changed leaders. The key fact in this area is disclosure and the current disclosure limits and procedures will continue. The Government, in the absence of co-operation from other parties, has produced a sensible and operative scheme of donation limits which is reasonable for all concerned. This is the first time limits in donations to political parties and individuals have been introduced and they are at quite a low level compared with what was initially considered.

The Government had to consider what levels would be reasonable having regard to the rights of free speech in our Constitution and the European Charter of Human Rights. The proposals had to be seen to be fair while at the same time protecting a person's right to free expression with moderate limitation. While there is no ideal model for the financing of political parties, the system proposed by the Government based on a reasonable balance between public and private funding, with the other legislative measures in the Bill and before the Oireachtas, will contribute to improving standards and to restoring public confidence and trust in public life.

Amendment No. 23 seeks to delete the provisions for the prohibition of the acceptance of certain foreign donations. There is already a framework in place for the regulation of political financing and the conduct of political activity in the State. Regarding donations, there is now a transparent regime for disclosures of donations to political parties, public representatives and candidates at elections. Anonymous donations in excess of specified amounts are prohibited and the Bill consolidates the existing disclosure regime with the introduction of limits and the requirement to open special donation accounts.

All these measures are intended to preserve the integrity of and restore credibility to the political process. Continuing to allow unrestricted access to foreign donations has the potential to seriously undermine the effectiveness of the wide-ranging measures I have mentioned. Furthermore, in a climate where all political activity has been conducted in a strict regulatory regime, unrestricted access to foreign donations could result in a particular party, individual or organisation becoming resourced to such an extent as to gain an overwhelming advantage over other parties or organisations in its access to the media, ability to campaign and generally engage in political activity. I support Deputy Bell's comments in that regard. The prohibition does not apply to Irish citizens resident abroad. To meet the constitutional rights of all citizens the Government has considered the matter fully and its decision is reflected in this Bill. Amendment No. 28 would prohibit donations from the corporate sector and that is not acceptable for the reasons I have given.

As I cannot accept these amendments I ask that they be withdrawn.

Regarding Deputy Bell's contribution, I happily confirm for him that I am all for a level playing field and I am sorry he is confused about the points I have made. I reaffirm that I am completely opposed to corporate contributions from any source, be they in the United States, here at home or in any other jurisdiction. Let us reach that point of agreement at least and then we can look at the deficiency in amendment No. 2 he recommends to me.

How can I possibly support an amendment that seeks to limit contributions solely and only to those who are Dáil electors? I live a few miles short of the Border, nearer to it than Deputy Bell and I am sure he has no doubt that the effect of this amendment, if it became a core element of the Bill, would be to exclude a contribution from any of my party colleagues in the North and members of my family and friends who reside in the North. It is an absolute absurdity. The situation is only marginally improved – which I acknowledged to the Minister of State on Committee Stage and do again now – where we are at least looking at Irish citizens, which incorporates the whole island, but the Labour Party amendment seeks to restrict this to those who are registered Dáil electors in this jurisdiction. That is another act of copper-fastening partition and is anathema to me; it is in antipathy to everything I stand for and hold dear.

I recommend amendment No. 23 and in the true spirit of addressing the issue of corporate donations I have already indicated I will support Deputy Mitchell's amendment No. 3. I will also support the Labour Party's amendment No. 28, Deputy Bell will be pleased to note, but I am sorry I cannot support amendment No. 2.

I am extremely disappointed that the Minister of State will not accept this amendment.

I am also surprised and disappointed by the strength of opposition to the amendment from Deputy Ó Caoláin. The Labour Party amendment proposes banning corporate funding. The question of constitutionality – whether this can be done – has been raised previously, though we did not see any legal advice produced by the Government in relation to it. The Labour Party took the view that to have a funding regime for political parties which was constitutional, it had to be based on the constitutional entitlement to participate in the politics of the State. That constitutional entitlement lays down who may vote and it is our view and advice that a funding regime based on that constitutional entitlement, the entitlement to be registered to vote, is constitutional and would therefore guarantee the banning of corporate donations. That is the rationale for our amendment.

There is pain in this amendment for Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats, which have raised funds through corporate donations. There is pain in this for the Labour Party, as it also bans funding from trade unions. It is unreasonable of Deputy Ó Caoláin to make an argument which, however much it is dressed up in the coded language we hear from Sinn Féin – wrap the diaspora and the peace process around me and for God's sake do not say anything to offend Sinn Féin – suggests a funding arrangement which bans corporate donations but lets Sinn Féin continue to raise funds in the United States. That is the argument he is making.

It is also unfair to the millions of Irish people and those of Irish descent in America and elsewhere who have expressed a view on Irish politics and the way this State and island should develop to imply that only those who put their hands in their pockets for Sinn Féin are contributing. Millions of people of Irish descent are actively contributing to the well being of the country and never make a contribution to any political party, including Sinn Féin. I expected Deputy Ó Caoláin to espouse the peculiar argument that it is appropriate that large sums of money collected from outside the State be used to influence the politics and self-determination of the people. I do not accept that. Deputy Ó Caoláin should not be making this kind of argument which favours the banning of corporate donations but wants Sinn Féin to keep its right to raise money abroad. It is a dishonest argument and I am disappointed he has pursued it with such vigour.

The core of the amendment concerns the banning of corporate donations. A clean break must be made on the issue. The limits that are proposed are presented as limits of £5,000 and £2,000. They are not the real limits because those are annual amounts. For example, the Government's proposal will permit a company, assuming that there is a five year interval between general elections, to give £25,000 to a party in the period between two general elections. Alternatively, it will permit a company to give £10,000 to an individual between two general elections. Those are sizeable sums of money from any perspective.

The proposal will also permit a series of companies to make separate donations. It is not unusual these days for there to be a sequence of related companies, each of which could separately make a contribution. For example, if there were four related companies in the same group, they could effectively make a contribution of £100,000 to a political party between two general elections. That means we are back to square one because the sums of money involved are very substantial.

The only way to prevent this is to ban it entirely. The Labour Party accepts the logic and consequences of that as far as trade union contributions to the Labour Party are concerned. In a regime where there is a ban on corporate funding and where employers are no longer funding political parties, the original rationale for the trade union funding of a party to represent workers' interests would no longer apply anyway. We accept this, as should Sinn Féin in so far as it applies to its own fund raising activities. I want to put the amendment to a vote and I hope Deputy Ó Caoláin, on reflection, will support me in it.

I would never exclude—

Amendment put.

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Fitzgerald, Frances.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.

Higgins, Michael.Howlin, Brendan.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.

Níl

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Aylward, Liam.

Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt. Brennan, Séamus.

Níl–continued

Byrne, Hugh.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.

Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donoghue, John.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Stagg and Bradford; Níl, Deputies S. Brennan and M. Ahern.
Amendment declared lost.

As it is now 6 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed".

Question put.

Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Byrne, Hugh.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.Coughlan, Mary.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.de Valera, Síle.Dennehy, John.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.

Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donoghue, John.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Malley, Desmond.Reynolds, Albert.Roche, Dick.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Bell, Michael.Belton, Louis J.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Broughan, Thomas P.Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Fitzgerald, Frances.Gilmore, Éamon.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.

Higgins, Michael.Howlin, Brendan.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Jim.Mitchell, Olivia.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Owen, Nora.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Sargent, Trevor.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies M. Ahern and S. Brennan; Níl, Deputies Bradford and Stagg.
Question declared carried.

The Bill, which is considered by virtue of Article 20.2.2º of the Constitution as a Bill initiated in Dáil Éireann, will now be sent to the Seanad.

Barr
Roinn