Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Nov 2001

Vol. 544 No. 4

Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Bill, 2000: Report Stage.

Ms O'Sullivan:

As I indicated on the Order of Business, I propose that the Bill in its entirety be recommitted under Standing Order 120. I will explain the reasons for this. Three amendments have been tabled on Report Stage which were only circulated late last night which propose to amend the Criminal Justice Act, 1994. They are substantial amendments, especially amendment No. 11. Given that the time allocated to this debate is very short and that there will be a guillotine, it is likely we will not discuss these proposals and that we will be asked to amend substantially other completely different legislation, the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, without discussing these amendments. This is unacceptable in terms of our duties as parliamentarians. The entire Bill should be recommitted.

Amendment No. 11 transfers the onus of proof on to the person accused by amending legislation with which we are not dealing. We are discussing the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Bill, 2000. It is proposed to amend substantially the Criminal Justice Act, 1994, without any substantive debate in the House, by transferring the onus of proof on to the person accused. It is not appropriate that we should do this and I expect the Minister of State to agree with me.

I also question whether these amendments are in order on Report Stage because they do not arise from Committee proceedings and bear no relation to what was discussed then. If either I or Deputies Timmins or Enright tabled amendments which did not arise from Committee proceedings, we would be ruled out of order. To my knowledge, these amendments have not been ruled out of order.

It would be a dereliction of our duties as parliamentarians to amend completely without discussion or debate other legislation not being discussed by the House and, in effect, change a fundamental principle of justice relating to the onus of proof. Therefore, I propose, in the interests of our parliamentary duties to scrutinise legislation, that the entire Bill be recommitted.

Mr. Timmins:

I support Deputy O'Sullivan. Discussion on the Bill is scheduled to conclude at 5 p.m. It is now almost 1.30 p.m. when the sitting will be suspended. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that we will not even reach the substantial amendment No. 11 which is three and a half pages long. Committee Stage of the Bill was taken before the summer recess, when half the amendments were discussed, and last week, yet the first we saw of this amendment was last night. There was no reference to it on Committee Stage. I support the point Deputy O'Sullivan made. It is unacceptable to conduct business in this manner.

Mr. Howlin:

A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle:

It is not in order for any other Member to speak.

Mr. Howlin:

Why?

An Ceann Comhairle:

Under Standing Orders only the Deputy moving the motion to recommit is entitled to speak.

Mr. Howlin:

No one else?

An Ceann Comhairle:

It is not in order.

Mr. Howlin:

It is out of order for the Minister of State to introduce extraneous matters.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I call on the Minister of State to indicate her position on this motion.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Ms Hanafin):

I appreciate the motion proposed by Deputy O'Sullivan and on which Deputy Timmins spoke. Significant consideration was given to these issues on Committee Stage, both in June when I was present and last week when the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, was present. Significant consideration was given to the various issues which strikes me as a good reason for not recommitting the Bill. All these issues were discussed in full on Committee Stage. The amendments tabled were largely discussed on Committee Stage except for the new ones. I accept there are a few new issues.

Amendment No. 11 was in the Bill as originally published and went to Committee Stage. The amendment arose from Committee deliberations. I intend to recommit the Bill in respect of amendments Nos. 13 and 28 and this will afford Deputies sufficient time to discuss the issues involved. I accept these deal with the inclusion of a new section in the Criminal Justice Act to oblige banks and other financial institutions to report transactions which have a connection with any country which the Minister may designate for that purpose. A country may be designated where the Minister forms the opinion that it does not have sufficient provisions in place to detect and prevent money laundering. This can be debated in what will be effectively a Committee Stage debate when we reach it.

The second amendment makes provisions for auditors who are obliged to report indications that a company may have committed an offence under the Act to have immunity from civil liability in respect of such disclosures. I also intend to recommit the Bill in respect of this amendment when we reach it in the ordinary course of events.

The time allocated is until 5.15 p.m. I am certainly willing to move as quickly as possible on all the other amendments which have been dealt with already and to facilitate Members to move quickly to reach the new amendments which are of concern. It was not possible to table the amendments on Committee Stage because we were waiting for the advice of the Attorney General on new issues and the draft heads. We have commitments to put in place by 1 January measures to prevent money laundering arising from the recommendations of the task force, something which we are all committed to doing. This is the procedure by which we can do so. If we begin the debate and move through the amendments which come before the ones of interest and debate, we can reach the amendments at issue in the ordinary course of events, recommit the Bill in respect of amendments Nos. 13 and 28, and move forward with the rest of the Bill. I appreciate the genuine interest of Deputies who were very active on Committee Stage, but we will have the time if we move forward as planned to recommit the Bill and discuss them.

Mr. Howlin:

A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle:

We cannot have a debate. Standing Orders are quite clear.

Mr. Howlin:

On a point of order, this is an outrageous abuse of Parliament. The manner in which legislation has been handled this morning is scandalous.

An Ceann Comhairle:

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Howlin:

It is, and I will ask the Labour Party to raise it at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The Minister of State is asking the House to buy a pig in a poke. She is saying that, if some amendments which have never been debated on Second or Committee Stages are reached—

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Howlin:

I am being as succinct as I can.

An Ceann Comhairle:

There is no provision in Standing Orders for the Deputy to make a contribution on this issue.

Mr. Howlin:

I am making a point of order and it is one of critical importance.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I have ruled that it is not a point of order.

Mr. Howlin:

You have not listened to me until you hear it.

An Ceann Comhairle:

I have listened.

Mr. Howlin:

The Minister of State suggests that, if by chance some amendments which have never been debated on either Second or Committee Stages are reached, she will then propose to recommit the Bill. They may never be reached. In essence the proposal from the Minister of State is that we should take on trust that the time might be allowed to debate a matter which probably will never be debated and which will change the fundamental criminal law. That is outrageous.

Mr. Enright:

Amendments can only be tabled on Report Stage which have been fully debated on Committee Stage. That is a long-standing rule of the House. In this instance the Minister of State accepted there were new issues in amendments Nos. 13 and 28. She has stated that she accepts this. Therefore, to debate them on Report Stage is totally out of order. I could not table those amendments and neither could Deputies Timmons and Quinn, yet the Minister of State can now do so. That is not on.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy has made his point.

Debate adjourned.

Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.