asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will make a statement on the circumstances relating to the deaths of eight refugees whose bodies were discovered in a container which landed in Waterford and was opened in County Wexford on 8 December 2001.
Private Notice Questions. - Asylum Seekers.
asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will make a statement on the circumstances relating to the deaths of eight refugees whose bodies were discovered in a container which landed in Waterford and was opened in County Wexford on 8 December 2001.
asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the investigation held into the discovery of eight bodies and five others in a serious condition in a container in County Wexford on 8 December 2001; the contact there has been with the authorities in other countries with a view to bringing those involved in the smuggling of the people concerned to justice; if he will use the powers available to him to allow the survivors to remain here on humanitarian grounds if they wish to do so; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to outline fully the Government's response to the recent tragic events surrounding the deaths of stowaways discovered in a freight container in County Wexford and, in particular, what changes in legislation and policy, if any, he intends to promote at EU and national level to reverse the development of what is becoming a fortress Europe.
(Dublin West) asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will make a statement on the tragic deaths of eight refugees in County Wexford.
I propose to take these questions together.
Last Saturday, 8 December, when I heard the news of the grim discovery made in County Wexford I was shocked and deeply saddened that people should lose their lives in this way. The fact that there were children involved made it particularly tragic. The House will be aware that eight people were discovered dead and that five others were immediately rushed to Wexford General Hospital. There is now some optimism about the condition of the five survivors, which is some consolation. Our deepest sympathy and thoughts go to the families and friends of all those involved.
The Garda, including the Garda National Immigration Bureau, is involved in a major investigation into this matter which is drawing on the international police co-operation established in the area of human trafficking and smuggling. The contacts which have been made, including those with the UK, French, Belgian and German authorities, have been of great assistance. Europol and Interpol have also been involved in the investigation. I express my gratitude for and acknowledge the full and timely co-operation of all these authorities.
While Deputies will appreciate the importance of not compromising the ongoing investigation and prejudicing any prosecutions which may result, I can confirm from the reports available to me that significant progress is being made in the investigation and that a number of persons have been interviewed regarding various stages of the container's journey to Ireland. Particular progress has been made in Belgium with regard to a premises which seems likely to have been used as a "staging post" as part of this trafficking operation. Inquiries appear to indicate that some of the unfortunate victims in this incident may have spent some time in this premises prior to being moved to the container.
The priority at this time is to ensure the complete recovery of the five survivors and that all their needs are catered for. At this point it is important to pay tribute to all in County Wexford associated with their care. I know the question of asylum or humanitarian leave has been raised and have already said that, when the people concerned are in a position to consider their future, it will be open to them to make such an application to me. I have made it clear that they will receive sympathetic consideration.
Considerable work has already been done by the Garda, including the Garda National Immigration Bureau, in the difficult task of identifying the deceased. This work has been considerably assisted by the high degree of international co-operation available. The facts I have to hand are that seven of the eight deceased are Turkish nationals who have been positively identified. Five are male, of whom three were minors, aged four, nine and 16 years. The two females included a ten year old girl. One remaining deceased male person has yet to be positively identified, but efforts are continuing.
The five survivors are believed to be three Turkish, one Albanian and one Algerian nationals. One of the Turkish nationals is a 15 year old boy. A number of relatives of the persons concerned have already travelled to Ireland and are being assisted by the authorities at what is a very difficult time for them. I thank the Turkish Ambassador to Ireland and his staff for their assistance to date.
A very thorough investigation is continuing, but at this point I would like to inform the House of the details available to me of the container's movements, which are as follows. The container loaded with furniture left Graffignana, near Milan, Italy, on Friday, 30 November and travelled via Cologne, Germany, to Zeebrugge, Belgium, arriving on Tuesday, 4 December. It was loaded on a ship which departed from Zeebrugge at 6 p.m. that evening. The ship arrived in Bellview port in Waterford on Thursday, 6 December, at 10.55 p.m. On Friday, 7 December, the container was loaded on to a truck and stored overnight at the port. On Saturday, 8 December, the truck was collected at 8.10 a.m. and brought to Drinagh business park in Wexford, where the discovery was made shortly after its arrival at 9.10 a.m. All the indications from the investigation so far are that these people were not attempting to travel to Ireland but were attempting to travel to the United Kingdom, a much shorter journey from the port of Zeebrugge.
This tragedy represents the first incident of this type in Ireland. Sadly, there have been similar tragedies in other countries before. At a Garda conference on co-operation between EU border control services in June, I spoke about the Dover tragedy of last year and stated that it could have happened in any country represented at the conference as all EU member states are potential targets for international criminal gangs which seek to exploit the needs of vulnerable people. Unfortunately, this has proven to be the case.
Our immigration system must achieve the correct balance in ensuring, on one hand, that the integrity and security of the State and its residents are protected and, on the other, that the rights and interests of immigrants are upheld. In addition, Ireland must afford protection to refugees and fair consideration and care for those claiming protection from persecution while those claims are being determined. The Government's policy regarding asylum and immigration matters is that it is committed to providing protection to refugees and the application of fair procedures in accordance with law to all immigrants, both legal and illegal. We have a fair and balanced asylum system as well as strong legal channels for legal migration in the work permit and work visa schemes. More than 35,000 people have availed of these schemes to date this year. It is anticipated that, by the end of December, 10,000 or so persons will have entered the State this year to make asylum applications here.
Unfortunately, there is clear evidence to show that our immigration system and those of our EU partners are being abused by traffickers and people smugglers. This has clear implications for the security of the State and its residents, particularly in light of the events of 11 September in the United States. It also has implications for the integrity and effectiveness of the asylum system as it operates in Ireland for those who are genuinely in fear of persecution. However, as a member of the family of civilised nations, we must continue to respect the dignity and human rights of all persons who claim asylum here – irrespective of what may be the eventual outcome of their claim.
This tragedy shows the callous disregard for human life of those who traffic in human beings. These people have no interest in their victims. They are in this for profit alone.
International law and criminal justice must target criminals who exploit and abuse the human rights of migrants through human trafficking and smuggling. Any perceived lack of coherence in the approach adopted by border control agencies serves to encourage rather than deter such activities. In light of the Dover tragedy last year, Governments across Europe reaffirmed their commitment to take action to counter people smuggling and trafficking. The Wexford tragedy underlines the need for concerted action and continued effective co-operation throughout Europe to combat those who seek to profit from the trade in human beings. People smuggling and trafficking is an international problem and no one country can operate alone to successfully combat it. It is clear that these challenges require the building of partnerships at all levels between European states at a policy and operational level. It poses challenges for the European Union, for Governments and policy makers generally in terms of the vision of Europe that we seek to support through immigration policy.
It is clear that a policy of control of the external borders alone will not work. There is a need to work with the countries of origin of migrants to try to tackle the root causes of migration. In many cases this is the result of poverty and lack of opportunity in the countries concerned, rather than persecution. There is a need to help those countries address the issues which give rise to this. There is an onus on the international community, and the west in particular, to encourage the economic development of countries which are the source of migration and to assist them in providing for the needs of their people. The EU's approach of promoting partnership with countries of origin as part of its wider migration and asylum policy is to be encouraged. Ireland's development aid programme also has a role to play here.
At United Nations level, the involvement of organised criminals in trafficking and smuggling of persons was recognised by the United Nations in the Palermo Convention against Transnational Organised Crime signed at the end of last year. It contained two protocols against migrant smuggling and trafficking. The focus is on criminalising the smugglers and traffickers. The protocols also take proper account of the need to treat migrants humanely and to safeguard their human rights, particularly where persons have been the victims of trafficking for exploitation.
As the House will be aware, I have taken action to deal with people traffickers and smugglers in Ireland. The Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Act, 2000, came into effect on 5 September 2000. The purpose of this Act is to target the profiteer or professional smuggler in human beings by creating an offence of trafficking in illegal immigrants and providing a framework by which those engaging in such smuggling can be dealt with under the law. Under the Act, any person who, for profit, intentionally assists illegal immigrants to enter the State may be punished by the imposition of unlimited fines or a term of up to ten years imprisonment or both. The Act covers offences committed outside the State as well as those committed in Ireland.
The Garda national immigration bureau, established last year, has had a focus on countering trafficking and smuggling activity and has developed strong operational international liaison which has been evidenced by the progress in this investigation. The first successful prosecution was taken earlier this year and a number of other investigations are pending, with as many as 20 cases currently with the Director of Public Prosecutions.
Earlier this year, the Irish Road Haulage Association agreed a voluntary code of practice with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which had the aim of encouraging greater vigilance to ensure that covert passengers were not present in vehicles arriving in Ireland. This was a welcome development.
The lesson we must learn from this tragedy is that we cannot lessen our vigilance in the fight against criminals who exploit vulnerable people. This exploitation is a world wide phenomenon and what we have seen in Ireland for the first time this week, in this terrible waste of life, is one instance of what is happening regularly throughout the world. As a member of the EU, Ireland must and will play a full part in, and encourage, concerted action at EU level to counter trafficking and smuggling activity internationally.
It is important to acknowledge that large scale population movements throughout the world have, in recent years and to an extent unknown in the past, become a fact of life. This raises issues of a very fundamental nature, not just for this country or the European Union but for the world as a whole. These are issues which need to be addressed seriously and urgently at an international level.
It does no justice to the issue itself and certainly no justice to the victims of those who callously prey on would-be migrants, to pretend that there are simple solutions. We will get nowhere with debate on this subject if it is seen simply as a matter of point and counter point, based on prejudice and on the refusal to acknowledge that there are genuine complexities. Building arguments, therefore, on false notions to the effect that there are no lawful means of entering the State, that applicants for refugee status do not have their cases heard, that the issue can be dealt with by setting quotas, that trafficking is a side issue, and that no immigrants abuse the system to the detriment of others is just as futile and wrong-headed in terms of genuinely finding solutions as is the pretence that legal solutions and law enforcement measures alone will suffice. We need to work seriously and honestly together, not only here but across the world, to address the underlying causes and to attempt to evolve, at international level, a means of addressing the fact that the large scale movement of people is now part of reality for all of us.
Does the Minister acknowledge that the tragedy which took place at the weekend is the inevitable result of the development of a "fortress Europe" mentality across the European Union which is resulting in both economic migrants and those genuinely seeking political asylum becoming increasingly desperate and taking ever more hazardous measures in attempting to gain entry to European Union countries, including Ireland? Does he also acknowledge that the additional vigilance and stricter controls, to which he has referred on many occasions, being put in place to ensure that refugees, asylum seekers and economic migrants do not enter the country are the cause of people taking the type of action that resulted in the eight appalling and tragic deaths that occurred at the weekend? Does he further acknowledge that there is a need to put in place across the European Union uniform rules and regulations to allow for access by economic migrants to the EU and also that there is a need to reassess the approach taken by member states, including Ireland, in order to ensure there is a reasonable possibility of access for those who are genuinely seeking political asylum and who can be properly described as political refugees?
I ask the Minister to acknowledge that the movement now taking place within the European Union on a co-ordinated level is more one designed to undermine the rights that refugees currently have under the United Nations Convention on Refugees than to ensure that there is a proper application of the principles contained in that legislation. Could the Minister indicate what new initiatives he now proposes taking to ensure a similar tragedy does not occur either in this State or in another European Union state?
References to this tragedy being a result of the difficulty of access to the EU by nationals of third countries because of a so-called "fortress Europe" policy, to which Deputy Shatter referred, are misguided. The indications are that the unfortunate victims in this case were already present in the EU before they entered the container with such tragic consequences. They could have claimed asylum in any of the member states in which they were present if that was their intention. If Europe does not take action against those responsible for trafficking and smuggling of persons, it is leaving the stage free for the unscrupulous who ply this evil trade across our Continent. If we do not firmly tackle this activity, we risk creating more victims. Human trafficking and smuggling is a modern-day slave trade and is a very lucrative business for those who control it. We must take action to put these people out of business and assist their victims.
The European Union is also developing its policy in relation to legal migration, including economic migration. While the numbers who will be entitled to enter each member state will be a matter for the member state, there will be clear procedures for legal entry to the EU. In recent years Ireland has had one of the most open immigration systems for economic purposes in the European Union. For those who wish to come to Ireland for economic reasons, the work permit system has provided possibilities for people from a wide range of skills backgrounds to come to Ireland legally. More than 18,000 people came through this route in 2000 and so far this year more than 35,000 have done so. They come from a wide range of countries. However, there is no evidence that greater opportunities for legal migration will lead to any reduction in illegal migration and trafficking in human persons. International experience is the opposite, that more open migration systems may lead to increased illegal migration to the countries concerned.
With regard to Deputy Shatter's question as to what is being done to prevent a recurrence of this tragedy, there is a significant level of international co-operation in combating the trafficking and smuggling of persons, which is a growing scourge internationally. It is clear that much activity in this area is being directed by organised criminals. There is increased co-operation and intelligence sharing across Europe, including through Europol. The need for this has been heightened in recent times by the events of 11 September in the United States of America. The sharing of intelligence and operational co-operation between member states is essential if we are to effectively combat the organised international menace of human trafficking and smuggling.
On a practical level in Ireland, the Garda national immigration bureau has been expanded in recent months to deal with the many challenges arising in the immigration area in Ireland. It is taking action to counter traffickers operating into Ireland. In recent weeks the bureau has pur chased equipment to detect the presence of human beings in vehicles. This is now being deployed at a number of ports and other units will be deployed in the coming days. The bureau is also working closely in co-operation with carriers and hauliers.
Deputy Shatter asked whether the action taken by the Garda Síochána in Cherbourg and Rosslare contributed to this tragedy. The evidence suggests that these people were not attempting to come to Ireland but were attempting to go to the United Kingdom. The co-operation between the Garda national immigration bureau and Irish Ferries in Cherbourg has the objective of tackling the people smuggling and trafficking activity which was operating on the Rosslare-Cherbourg route. People who arrive in Ireland are entitled to claim asylum. It should also be noted that all other EU member states are signatories to the 1951 Refugee Convention to which they must adhere. The unfortunate people who are the victims in this terrible tragedy would have been entitled to claim asylum in Belgium or in any other member state through which they travelled. There is a provision in international law, through a convention known as the Dublin Convention, whereby a person is obliged to make an application for asylum in the signatory country in which he or she first lands where he or she could reasonably have done so. This is international law.
I have outlined the situation as best I can and will be pleased to take questions from other Deputies or further questions from Deputy Shatter.
Following the Dover tragedy in June 2000 the Minister stated that it made him more determined to try to ensure the introduction of measures to combat trafficking in human beings and that it was of immense importance to stop it. In the light of the recent tragedy, is the Minister satisfied with the measures he has taken and, if not, what additional measures does he propose to take? In his contribution the Minister said that he wished to thank the Turkish Ambassador. I do not know whether he has had discussions with the Turkish Ambassador. If he has, did he seek to establish why these individuals were seeking to get away from Turkey, a state awaiting entry to the EU? Did he raise this issue? If he did not, has he any intention of doing so? What additional resources have been allocated to the Garda Síochána in Wexford town or to the Garda national immigration bureau to deal with this matter?
The Minister stated that there are provisions for people who do not qualify for refugee status on humanitarian grounds to remain in the country. Can he give an assurance that he will look on this case in a sympathetic light? Could he tell the House how many times these provisions have been invoked and how many asylum seekers who failed to obtain refugee status have been allowed to remain here under that provision?
Aside from this tragedy, does it not strike the Minister as strange that a container could come into this country without being checked? Is there any indication from the survivors of this affair that relatives of theirs got into the country in this manner? Is the Minister aware of any other people who did so? Does it not strike him that this container could have brought anything into the country? Does he agree that we need to re-examine our whole system of customs and security checks at various points of entry if such a situation can arise?
With regard to the measures which have been implemented, the illegal immigrants traffic legislation is quite strict. It provides for unlimited fines, terms of imprisonment of up to ten years and the forfeiture of vehicles. I am satisfied that the measures are sufficiently strict to be a deterrent – 20 cases are with the Director of Public Prosecutions at present.
I spoke to the Turkish Ambassador. He conveyed to me the thanks of the Turkish nation for the work Ireland has done in relation to this appalling tragedy. I did not seek an explanation from him why some Turkish nationals sought to come here. I do not believe it is something on which he could have assisted me.
With regard to the question of additional resources, I have made it clear that any resources which are required by the Garda Síochána in this matter through the Garda national immigration bureau, which is headed by Chief Superintendent Donnellan, will be provided.
With regard to the question of the people concerned being allowed to remain on humanitarian grounds, I have explained that there is provision in legislation which allows for that. I have also indicated that this is something to which I am most sympathetically disposed.
With regard to the number of people who were allowed to remain on humanitarian grounds, I do not have that information. However, I can assure the Deputy that this is not an isolated case. Many people have been allowed to stay here on humanitarian grounds.
With regard to the containers being checked, I have realised for some time that a tragedy like this could occur. We saw what happened in Dover. I went to France to meet the then Interior Minister, Mr. Chevènement, and explained the difficulties we were having in relation to Cherbourg. I also went to Britain and met the then Home Secretary, Mr. Jack Straw, and explained the difficulties we were having in relation to immigration from Britain. As a result of these discussions, liaison officers were placed in London and Paris. The co-operation which resulted was much greater than had been the case prior to that. It is clearly of immense importance that people are not allowed to get into containers in places like Cherbourg. That presents severe difficulties and in this instance it resulted in the death of the poor unfortunate people concerned.
It is important that international co-operation is enhanced. In that context, I pay tribute to police forces across Europe which have been of enormous benefit to the Garda national immigration bureau in seeking to track down the perpetrators of this awful event.
I hope the Chair will give some latitude to a Deputy from Wexford who came upon these scenes last Saturday when I visited my local hospital and Drinagh Business Park, where the dreadful sight confronted the driver and the gardaí who opened the container. I express my deepest sympathy to the victims and their families and wish the survivors in Wexford General Hospital well. I compliment the Garda Síochána in Wexford, whose members were extraordinarily professional in the circumstances, and the staff of Wexford General Hospital, led by Dr. Paddy McKiernan, the consultant physician, all of whom rallied in a supportive way to deal with this appalling tragedy.
The Minister, like me, saw the situation at first hand. Looking into that container and imagining the appalling suffering was to look into hell. If there is a hell, it is what was endured by those people in that steel box as they watched their friends, colleagues and family members die and as they felt their own lives drifting from them. In a matter of a few more hours, there would have been no survivors.
The Minister said that we need to work seriously and honestly together. Will he accept that his comment that we have a fair and balanced asylum system as well as strong legal channels for legal migration in the work permit and work visa scheme is simply untrue and a sham? There is no mechanism for those people to come legally into this country. Will he accept that the work visa scheme is activated by people who apply here for named individuals? The Government has promised for the past year to put it on a statutory basis but where is the legislation? The Tánaiste has ministerial responsibility for it.
Does the Minister accept that the vast bulk of the 35,000 visas he mentioned are for citizens of developed countries, the computer technologists and other skilled personnel who run our high tech industries? I have the list of numbers. For people in Third World countries or undeveloped countries in eastern Europe, there is little opportunity to be even considered for visas. Will the Minister accept that the current system is due to be reduced because the Tánaiste regards it as a safety valve in the recession we are facing? Will he accept that what is needed is not only a rational asylum policy to deal humanely and efficiently with asylum applications but also a policy to deal with economic migrants in a structured way? The concept of quotas offends one of my colleagues in the Green Party but the European Union must absorb and welcome people in a structured way. I urge the Minister to stop characterising people who disagree with him as being in favour of an open door policy.
If the Minister is as honest and shocked as me by what befell my constituents last Saturday and if he is genuinely of the opinion that we must work seriously and honestly together, I invite him to deal with this issue through the following three-stranded strategy. First, there should be a fast track asylum application processing system which, in fairness, the Minister is close to having in place. Second, there should be a green card system whereby economic migrants can apply, on an agreed basis, to live and work freely in this country on a permanent basis. Third, there should be a developed integration and support system for all non-nationals to build a more pluralist society and to attack racism.
I believe the Minister is a decent man but his innate conservatism makes him inappropriate for this most difficult and sensitive work. Will the Minister abandon the legalisms and jargon and simply say on the record, in common decency and in fulfilment of what I believe the people want, that if the survivors of this appalling tragedy wish to remain in this county, they will be welcome to do so? Nothing more would be expected.
I am perfectly used to nomenclatures and exaggerated descriptions but I must stick with the facts in response to the position put by Deputy Howlin.
What am I exaggerating?
The figure of 35,000 which I mentioned earlier includes 3,000 persons who entered the country under the special work visa programme, whereby authority was delegated to the Irish embassies abroad to deal directly with applications from people in specialist occupations. These included engineers, medical professionals, including nurses, and IT and construction specialists who could establish to the satisfaction of the embassy that they had a firm job offer in Ireland.
This is pathetic.
The remaining approximately 32,000, surely the majority, are people whose prospective employers had applied in the usual way to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment—
For named individuals.
—for a work permit for them. Subsequently, if appropriate, that is, if they are visa nationals, the individuals themselves apply for visas. I cannot accept that the asylum system in this country is unfair. It is fair and balanced. Ireland operates in accordance with the 1951 Geneva Convention on Refugees. No human being who arrived on our shores was denied the opportunity to apply for asylum. No human being who ever applied for asylum was denied due process. If, at the end of that process, an individual is found not to be a refugee, there is a provision whereby the individual is asked to leave. Subsequently, there is the issue of deportation.
Ireland's standards as they apply to asylum seekers are among the best in the world, of that there can be no question. We have endeavoured over the past four years to ensure that each man, woman and child coming to this country to seek asylum was given a roof over their head and was provided for. We succeeded in doing so. Nobody should underestimate the challenge of caring for 10,000 people per year. At times staff in the Department have been attacked for carrying out what is a thankless and difficult task. However, they carry out that task extremely well and I, as Minister, am extremely proud of the way they do so.
Ireland has not experienced immigration at this level before and the structures and the legislation to deal with the immigration which has been occurring were not in place. Most of the structures and legislation are now in place and we are reaching the stage where every applicant's case can be processed within a period of six months of him or her arriving here. I know that Deputy Howlin is well-intentioned when he speaks about quotas. The difficulty is that it is not possible to impose a quota like that because, under the 1951 convention, every individual who arrives is entitled to apply for asylum.
The Minister knows that I am talking about illegal migrants, not asylum seekers.
The Minister is deliberately confusing the issue.
There can be no question of a quota being put on asylum seekers.
There is nothing else for them to do in this jurisdiction.
With regard to the question of ensuring that people have an opportunity to come here on a legal basis, we have in place a system where people can make an application to come to this country to work legally. That is the position. Never in the history of the State have so many work permits or work visas been issued as were issued in the past year. With regard to the people admitted, the permits were granted to Latvians, Lithuanians, Romanians, people from the Czech Republic, people from the Russian Federation, people from South Africa, people from Poland and people from the Philippines.
What about those from the United States, Canada and Australia? Does the Minister have the figures?
I have the figures if Deputy Howlin wishes to hear them – Latvia, 4,277; Lithuania, 2,825; Romania, 1,700—
I want to hear all the figures.
—the Czech Republic, 1,420; the Russian Federation, 1,401; South Africa, 2,200; Poland, 2,400; and the Philippines, 2,380.
How many Americans?
This is not the action of a Government that is seeking to discriminate against the nationals of any country. This is the action of a Government which has a broad mind on this matter. Let nobody come into the House and pretend that it is possible to have an immigration system which will cater for everybody's needs irrespective of where they come from. There is a massive movement of people across Europe from east to west, from Africa into Europe and in all places. No one country, certainly not a country as small as this, has the opportunity or even the hope of catering for this problem.
We can carry our share.
I accept that Deputy Howlin is well-intentioned and that his proposals are put forward from a humanitarian perspective. I respect him for that but let us be clear. If there is to be progress in relation to the question of immigration and if people from underdeveloped countries are to be assisted, the sources from which those people come must be looked at and those countries assisted. It cannot be done by one small country. It has to be done at international level through international co-operation. People in those countries must be assisted to have reasonable livelihoods at home. That may seem a very high aspiration to have, but it is a more realistic aspiration than Deputy Howlin's.
Can the survivors stay?
I have said that.
I want a plain and simple answer.
Does the Minister accept that it is because we do not have a proper immigration policy, something that applies across Europe, that asylum seekers are very often forced into the hands of unscrupulous traffickers? Does he accept that, in a globalised world where we have free movement of goods, services and capital, it is inevitable that we will also have the movement of people? How does the Government intend to deal with the very fundamental problems of globalisation, which are the root cause of this problem?
How does the Minister apply the Dublin Convention? Is it applied selectively so that there will be no deportations when the media are watching and that we can give asylum seekers sympathy? Is it when the eye is off the ball that we deal unfairly with people? In relation to the concept of fortress Europe, does the Minister accept the proposals for European border guards put forward by Antonio Vitorino, the EU Commissioner with responsibility in this area, an idea also supported by Commissioner Prodi? This is a prime example of fortress Europe. How does the Minister feel about it?
I do not accept that we do not have an immigration policy. We have a very sophisticated immigration policy which has been built up in recent years. It is among the most sophisticated immigration policies in Europe. I do not know how Deputy Gormley has come to the conclusion that we do not have an immigration policy. I suspect that because he does not agree with the immigration policy we have, he likes to suggest that we do not have a policy.
With regard to the application of the Dublin Convention, the convention has not worked, is not working and has little hope of working. The Dublin Convention provides that a person must make his or her application, where he or she reasonably could have done so, at the port of first entry. The difficulty is that it can be very problematic to establish precisely where an individual came from in the absence of co-operation. The European Union is developing the Eurodac system which will provide that fingerprints can be exchanged to prevent multiple applications for asylum across EU member states. However, that has not yet been established and, even when it is, I am not sure that the Dublin Convention will be effective.
There is no unfair treatment of people. They are treated fairly. They make their application for asylum and are entitled to appeal that decision to an independent appeals authority. Some can then seek judicial review in the High Court on the basis that the procedures applied were not proper. At all times, due process is observed. People are entitled to free legal aid and to interpretative facilities. I do not know of an equivalent system in Europe.
Deputy Gormley has again brought up the question of fortress Europe. I cannot say that the Deputy is correct in relation to this. Fortress Europe is nothing other than a state of mind. I say this because Ireland has had in the past year about 10,000 applicants for asylum, and about 5% more than that in the previous year. Many of the people concerned had to transgress European states to get here. Britain, France, Germany and other major states of the EU will have many more applicants than Ireland. In Britain, the figure was close to 80,000 last year. In France and Germany, the figures are probably similar or higher. That does not indicate a fortress Europe to me. That Ireland has one of the highest number of applicants for asylum per head of population in the European Union neither indicates to me a fortress Europe nor, indeed, an asylum system which militates against people's fundamental rights.
There have in the past been many misconceptions in relation to the asylum system in this country. I fundamentally disagree with people who have those misconceptions, because that is what I describe them as. That is not to say I do not agree that people should be treated with dignity and that we should apply our laws humanely, and we certainly endeavour to do that.
I asked about European border guards.
(Dublin West): Does the Minister agree that the appalling deaths of the eight refugees in a shipping container in Wexford is a shocking modern day reverberation of the Famine coffin ships from our own history, with the difference being that instead of oppressed, poor and dispossessed Irish people fleeing our blighted island, today's victims are the oppressed, poor and dispossessed of other troubled countries seeking a haven on these islands?
Is it true some of the victims are Kurdish people? If so, they are coming from a country in which their nationality, language and culture are routinely and brutally repressed by the Government whose ambassador the Minister thanked in his reply. The policies of those Governments are what has driven many of these people out. Does the Minister agree it is an outrage that such people are forced to put themselves in the hands of cut-throat and gangster traffickers because the Government is blocking a system whereby people can come here safely to apply for refuge under the Dublin Convention? Does he agree the Dublin Convention is pushing people into the hands of traffickers? In the case of the Kurdish people, for example, there is a substantial Kurdish community in Britain. Is it not natural that Kurds fleeing further persecution will want to go to where they have perhaps neighbours or relatives rather than being isolated in a country in mainland Europe which the Dublin Convention dictates given that they have to come overland in most cases? Therefore, is there not a compelling case for an immediate change in this policy?
I call on the Minister to give a brief response. I hope to get some more questions in, if possible.
The situation in relation to a person arriving in Europe, in a signatory state to the Dublin Convention, is that he or she makes his or her application where he or she could first reasonably do so. That is the law. I did not write that law, it is international law. If, for example, a person arrives in Belgium, France or Germany first, he or she is obliged to make his or her application there if he or she could reasonably do so. If the person is a refugee, as Deputy Higgins states, the individual concerned will be granted refugee status where he or she makes the application. A person who is granted refugee status has the same rights and privileges as a citizen and, therefore, such a person would be in a position to travel on to meet his or her relatives in Britain or in any other part of the European Union for the simple reason that he or she would have refugee status.
(Dublin West): Some 18 months later.
I have no way of knowing the position in regard to the very unfortunate people in the container. I have no way of knowing their precise status and, obviously, I cannot be expected then to say what it is. All I can say is that we are, and have been, dealing with this situation with as much humanity as we can apply. We are seeking to counsel the individuals concerned. As Deputy Howlin said, they have been receiving the very best medical care and we will deal with them with the greatest possible sympathy we can apply to the situation. That much is certain. I cannot, however, answer some of the Deputy's questions for the reasons I have outlined.
Will the Minister convey the sympathies of all of us in the House to the families of the people who lost their lives, to those who are dangerously ill in hospital, to those who have been assisting the sick people and to the unfortunate truck driver who made the discovery? One can only imagine how appalling it was for him and anybody else there – I believe a couple of gardaí were there as well. The Minister mentioned that one person has been convicted under the Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Act, 2000. Perhaps the Minister will tell the House what sentence was handed down in that case, when he expects the other 20 cases to come before the courts and whether the Director of Public Prosecutions will prosecute them.
Although it may be too soon, will the Minister tell the House what discussions he had with the Turkish Ambassador about funerals for the people who lost their lives? Will they be returned to their countries? Does he have any assurances that no members of their families will be victimised in any way or discriminated against if these people are brought home for burial, whether in Turkey or Albania? What discussion has taken place on that matter?
On the road hauliers voluntary code, perhaps the Minister will tell us what is in it, or let me have a copy of it so I can see exactly what road hauliers are expected to do. Is it clear yet at what point these people entered the container? Did they enter it in Italy or in Zeebrugge? The Minister's report appears to imply that the container came from Italy sealed with furniture in it. Was it reopened in Zeebrugge?
Is the Minister satisfied that police forces in places like Belgium are doing what they can to prevent this sort of exploitation and trafficking given that as soon as the police force in Belgium was contacted, it was able to identify the house from which it thinks these people came or in which the people trafficking them lived? It means it had that house under surveillance. Why did it not move sooner to get the people carrying on this dastardly trade?
Acting Chairman
As everybody is aware, by order of the House, we must complete this debate at 6.30 p.m. I propose, if Members agree, to take a brief supplementary question from each of the Members who put down a private notice question. I will then ask the Minister to reply to all of them.
Following from Deputy Howlin's comments, with which I agree, does the Minister acknowledge that we should have a green card system to allow economic migrants to come to this country, a system of a similar nature to that which we urged on the United States for Irish immigrants going there during the 1970s and 1980s? Will the Minister acknowledge that a green card system with reasonable agreed quotas would allow persons who are economic migrants to come to this State and would separate such persons from those genuinely seeking political asylum? Will he acknowledge that in his reply to Deputy Howlin he was wrong to raise the issue of quotas in the context of political refugees or those seeking political asylum? No Member of this House is raising that issue in this context. It is time we addressed the issue of a green card system and put in place arrangements in this State which we have urged on other states in the past in the context of our nationals who sought to work abroad.
I am not aware of the physical appearance, qualities or otherwise of the container. While I would not like to be seen to be facilitating trafficking in human beings, from a purely practical point of view, will the Minister give a commitment that the next Council of Ministers will consider putting a filtered vent system in containers which do not carry refrigerated goods because it might prevent a reoccurrence of such a tragedy?
Has the Minister considered humanitarian help for the families if they wish to repatriate bodies of the deceased and will he assist financially with travel, accommodation and basic supports? Will the Minister state unequivocally if he will let those who want to stay do so? I want the Minister to say "yes" if they want to stay.
(Dublin West): Will the Minister, when he refers to the events of 11 September in the context of migration and asylum seekers, withdraw any inference that people seeking asylum or residence here are somehow connected with an atrocity that was carried out by a very particular group of people?
Acting Chairman
We are into injury time at this stage. Will the Minister summarise very briefly?
In reply to Deputy Owen, I will certainly convey the sympathy of the House to the families of those who lost their lives and to the truck driver who has been traumatised. That would be most appropriate. I understand that one person has been convicted of trafficking. I do not know the precise sentence that is applicable under the Illegal Immigrants (Trafficking) Act. I will communicate that to Deputy Owen.
With regard to her question on the road hauliers code, road hauliers agree they will carry out certain checks to ensure, in so far as they can, that they are not carrying illegal immigrants unknowingly. It is intended to bring forward carriers' liability legislation. I will furnish the Deputy with a copy of the code.
It was asked at what point the container was opened and at what stage the unfortunate people entered the container. It is believed, but not certain, that they entered the container in Belgium. There was certainly evidence that the seal had been broken. There was also evidence that there was silicone used to camouflage the fact that the seal had been broken. It is clear to the authorities that somebody assisted the unfortunate people into the container. Of that there is no doubt.
The police in Belgium have been hugely co-operative and immensely helpful. They have been in constant contact with the Garda Immigration Bureau. I am deeply grateful to that body for the amount of work it has done, including Chief Superintendent Donnellan.
With regard to the green card system, quotas and so on that Deputies Shatter and Howlin advocated, I have outlined why it would not be possible to apply quotas to asylum seekers.
Nobody is suggesting that.
We are not suggesting that.
Equally, I am extremely dubious about applying quotas to people entering the State. I say that because I have no way of knowing what way things will be in five or ten years' time. It is clear that each state must ensure, in so far as it possibly can, that its own nationals find employment. It is important that this happen.
Why can it be done in the US, Australia and elsewhere?
It is important to recognise that this is a small, open economy which is subject to the vagaries of international economic fluctuations. America, Australia and Britain are very large economies.
To compare little Ireland with these countries is not to make a fair or correct comparison. It is true that 35,000 people were allowed into the State on work visas or permits. Restrictions are being put in place in terms of the number that will be issued in the future because it is felt there will not be sufficient jobs.
Acting Chairman
We will have to adjourn shortly. Will the Minister respond briefly to the other two questions.?
With regard to the question of a filter system, an effort must be made to stop people getting into containers in so far as that is possible and to advise people not to enter them under any circumstances.
Where the question of people being allowed stay is concerned, I have been fairly direct on that.
Will the Minister say they are welcome?
I said that if the people concerned decide to make an application to stay here as asylum seekers – in other words, as refugees – or make an application to stay here on humanitarian grounds, their case will be considered most sympathetically. The people have not yet made such an application, but they are very welcome to do so. From what I have said, it is obviously my intention to accede to such a request.
With regard to the question from Deputy Joe Higgins, there was no intention of inferring that asylum seekers were involved in the events of 11 September other than to point to the fact that there are obligations in terms of security as well as the economy.
Sitting suspended at 6.35 p.m. and resumed at 7.00 p.m.