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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 5 Nov 2002

Vol. 556 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 13 – motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Euro-Mediterranean Association Agreement between the EU and Egypt, the EU and Lebanon and the EU and Algeria; No. 14 – motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) (No. 2) Regulations, 2002; No. 15 – motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on Police Co-operation; No. 16 – motion re referral to select committee of Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland Bill, 2002; No. 17 – motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimate [Vote 34] and, subject to the agreement of No. 17, to take Supplementary Estimate [Vote 34]; No. 3, Criminal Justice (Illicit Traffic by Sea) Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 13, 14, 15 and 16 shall be decided without debate. No. 17 shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith and, subject to the agreement of No. 17, Supplementary Estimate [Vote 34] shall be moved and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 75 minutes or by 7.00 p.m., whichever is the earlier, and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith and the following arrangements shall apply: the Minister for Agriculture and Food and the main spokesperson for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the technical group shall be called on in that order and shall not exceed ten minutes in each case. The speeches of each Member called on shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, Members may share time and the Minister for Agriculture and Food shall be called on to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes. Private Members' business shall be No. 40, motion re registration charge for third level students.

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 13, 14, 15 and 16, motions re referral to committees, without debate agreed?

The motions do not say to which committees these matters are to be referred. Since there could be confusion as to the role of different committees, the order should state the committees being referred to. I presume No. 13 is to be referred to the Select Committee on European Affairs.

I welcome the Taoiseach back to the House, he has not changed a bit.

The Deputy remembers me anyway.

We object to No. 15 being hived off to a committee given that it is a vital matter which should be dealt with in the House. We understood that there would be statements on Northern Ireland, particularly as this item deals with policing, and that statements were to address the subversion of policing implied by reports of the Government's secret deal with the Real IRA. Given that the issue of policing is vital in terms of the peace process, I ask the Ceann Comhairle to accept that this matter should be dealt with in the Dáil.

We on the Sinn Féin team cannot agree with the proposal to refer the motion on the policing agreement between the Irish and British Governments to committee without debate. This is one of the crucial issues facing the country and it is central to the peace process. We want to see a new beginning to policing as envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement and we want to see the Patten proposals implemented in full. There needs to be all-Ireland co-operation as the basis for future policing on this island, but it must be in the context of a new police service in the North, which we do not have yet. We would support the measures in the agreement on policing if the Patten proposals were already in place north of the Border, but they are not. It is unacceptable for this motion to be passed along to by-pass the opportunity for debate in this Chamber and, accordingly, I record an objection to that formula.

Does the Taoiseach agree there is validity in the case being made to have this matter debated in the House rather than in Select Committee, given its national importance?

If the motions go to committee and people feel that is not enough they can take up some time here as well. We discuss the issue of policing in Northern Ireland here all the time. Along with the number of requests for special debates and the way we structure business – Leaders' Questions, Question Time, notices under Standing Order 31, Private Members' Business and Matters on the Adjournment – this House also has to discuss legislation.

It is called accountability.

That is exactly why we need to discuss legislation.

The Taoiseach made a good start last week.

The committee system was designed to give more time for debate, otherwise we would end up discussing this elsewhere. I am aware of the sensitivities of this issue.

The Taoiseach is in the House one day a week.

We sit long hours in this House.

The Taoiseach does not.

I was not here the last day to reply to him, but I remind Deputy Sargent that no Taoiseach in the history of the State spent as many hours on Question Time as I have.

That is tough.

Question put: "That Nos. 13 to 16, inclusive, be taken without debate."

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.

Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McGuinness, John.McHugh, Paddy.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M. J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin. Sexton, Mae.

Tá–continued

Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wilkinson, Ollie.

Woods, Michael,Wright, G.V.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.Breen, James.Broughan, Thomas P.Burton, Joan.Connolly, Paudge.Cuffe, Ciarán.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Howlin, Brendan.McGrath, Finian.

McManus, Liz.Morgan, Arthur.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Penrose, Willie.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Eamon.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Upton, Mary.Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Stagg.
Question declared carried.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 17 without debate, motion re supplementary Estimates, agreed to? Agreed.

In light of the statements by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions this week on racism in the workplace, is it intended to proceed with the Work Permits Bill and when will it be before the House?

The Work Permits Bill is designed to put the employment permit regime on a comprehensive and sound structural footing. The heads of the Bill have been approved by Government and the Bill has been drafted and should be introduced in the spring session.

When is it intended to publish the Estimates for the public services for 2003? Is it still intended to bring in spending for 2002 on target, as the Minister appears to be saying?

They will be published on 14 November.

Given the renewed concerns of adopted people and organisations representing them regarding access to birth information and searching for birth parents, will the Government give further consideration to bringing forward the promised legislation on amending adoption law?

There are very sensitive issues involved in this. The heads of the Bill have been approved and I understand it will take some time to draft this sensitive and complicated Bill.

I was keener than ever to come here today to join in what I suspect is a joyful day for the Labour Party. I have known Pat Rabbitte for a long time. I recall that in the local elections of 1985 he had 90 votes more than me, I am glad to say that we have both improved a lot since then. I wish to congratulate him and in doing so, paraphrase what he said to me and Deputy Crowe 171 days ago when we were elected to this House: I wish Deputy Rabbitte well, but after today he is on his own.

That was not strictly in order, but we will allow it for the day that is in it.

Two weeks ago the Taoiseach said the whole question of the dual mandate was under review. Since then we have had a posse of Government backbenchers discussing it on local radio. What is the current position of that legislation?

There is no promised legislation as of yet.

Why is it in the newspapers?

I wish I could write the newspapers.

Deputy Allen can submit a parliamentary question.

A Health Insurance Bill and the VHI Board Corporate Status Bill are due to be published in the next year. What is going to happen to the VHI regarding privatisation? Many questions are now being raised—

The Health Insurance (Amendment) Bill to amend and extend the provisions of the Health Acts, 1994 and 2001 is due next year, as is the VHI Bill.

Will the Taoiseach clarify when the Education (Persons with Disabilities) Bill will come before the House and if any consultation has taken place?

Consultation has been ongoing and the Bill is due before Christmas.

Given that the problems with the meat factories have been resolved, does the Taoiseach propose to introduce legislation that will ensure competition in the sector? In view of the fact—

I am sorry, the Deputy can only ask about promised legislation.

May I clarify?

No. The Chair has ruled and I ask the Deputy to obey it.

The Egyptian market was supposed to be opened and bring competition to the meat factories.

This is the second week that the Deputy has been unruly in the House on this matter. He will have to find another way of raising it.

It is of major importance to the people—

The Deputy did the same two weeks ago in the House. If he does not resume his seat immediately I will ask him to leave the House. The Deputy should resume his seat when the Chair is on its feet.

The dispute has been resolved—

The Deputy will leave the House.

The dispute has been resolved and it is a major concern to the farming community that this has happened. The Minister for Agriculture and Food sits beside the Taoiseach week in and week out and nothing is happening. The farmers I represent—

I move: "That Deputy Hayes be suspended from the service of the Dáil." Is the motion being opposed?

Deputy Hayes will leave the Dáil.

That is very unfair.

There is no need to ask Deputy Hayes to leave the House. He has raised this important matter on numerous occasions.

Of course it is an important matter but he will have to find the proper way of raising it.

There is no way of doing that.

When the Chair is on its feet it must be respected. This is a national Parliament, not a crèche. I expect Members to respect the Chair.

Deputy Hayes was not speaking like someone in a crèche.

No Member can continue to speak when the Chair is on its feet. There could not be order in the House if that was allowed.

I understand that regulation but he was not speaking as a member of a crèche.

The motion for suspension has been moved.

I will oppose that motion.

Under Standing Order 61 the division is postponed until before the Order of Business tomorrow morning. The Deputy must now leave the House.

That is a bit over the top.

That is way over the top, there is no necessity for that.

The Chair has ruled, appropriate to the long-standing precedent set by my predecessors, and I will not have my rulings questioned.

On a point of order—

There will be no point of order on that issue.

I ask the Ceann Comhairle to bear with me for just a moment. Are we to have a situation where every Member who raises a valid subject which is of concern to the public will be asked to leave the House?

The Deputy knows that Deputy Hayes was totally out of order.

I wish to register a strong protest at this new order.

There is no new order. There is a long standing precedent in this House.

That is a new order.

It is not a new order and I ask the Deputy to withdraw that.

It is a departure from what has happened in my time in this House and I have been here almost as long as the Ceann Comhairle. I find it objectionable that when a Member of the Opposition raises a valid subject—

The Chair was more than tolerant with Deputy Hayes last week.

He is not getting answers.

There is an appropriate way in which to raise matters—

There is no way to do so.

—and the Order of Business is not the way to raise that matter. If we were to allow that we would be here until midnight. Every Deputy would be entitled to raise any issue they liked. Standing Order 26 is quite specific and if the Deputies are not happy with Standing Orders they know how to change them.

We are looking for the Marie Celeste. We are looking for the shipment that went to Egypt the week before the election. It has not been found since.

At least the Marie Celeste was found.

Tonight I will attend the launch of a new service for those who suffer from domestic violence. I would like to be able to give the people there some reassurance regarding the decision of the Supreme Court that found interim barring orders unconstitutional. Has legal advice to redress this been received and when are we likely to see the legislation?

The full judgment of the court had to be delivered; that has now been presented and the matter is under consideration. Amending legislation may be required, but that decision will not be made until the findings of the court have been dealt with. As soon as that happens, I will inform the Deputy.

When does the Government intend to bring legislation before the Dáil to establish an inquiry into clerical child sexual abuse and the handling of same by church authorities? Will the Government be laying an order before the Dáil with the terms of reference for the Ferns inquiry?

I do not believe legislation is required. The inquiry is to begin in the new year. I am not sure if an order is required, but legislation is certainly not required as the inquiry is non-statutory.

I wish to refer to the matter Deputy Gogarty raised, namely, the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill. Is this a redrafted Bill or is it the same legislation which was introduced in the Seanad before the election and which was put on ice at the request of disability organisations because they were dissatisfied with it?

That legislation has been revised following the consultation to which I referred.

When will the two promised amendments relating to the Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Act be forthcoming? The Taoiseach promised these amendments a number of weeks ago. Are we likely to see them before the commencement of the Six Nations Rugby Championship?

That announcement was made some weeks ago and the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, is obliged to bring the relevant orders to the House. I do not have a date for this, but the intention is to make the orders.

I notice from the list of proposed legislation, that one item has changed its name from the control of road openings Bill to the Roads (Control of Road Works) Bill since the previous session. Will the Taoiseach indicate why this matter, which I have raised repeatedly, has been put on the long finger?

Preliminary work is under way on the Bill, but I do not have a date with regard to its introduction.

Does the Taoiseach not accept that there is chaos in Dublin because of road works?

Is the Taoiseach aware that, as a result of insurance difficulties, 40 jobs have been lost in CPV in Clones? Is it intended to bring forward legislation to curtail the cost of insurance?

The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, has announced a list of proposals, some of which may, in due course, require the introduction of legislation. In the meantime, however, she is proceeding to implement the procedures she has outlined.

Tomorrow the CIE board is going to rubber-stamp a decision regarding rail freight. In light of the fact that this decision will mean there will be an additional 82 accidents and six fatalities on Irish roads because two million extra tonnes of freight will have to be transported by road, will the Taoiseach bring forward amending secondary legislation in respect of the Road Traffic Acts to ensure that spray suppression systems are installed on heavy goods vehicles because spray can severely limit visibility on wet roads?

Preliminary work is under way on a Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill but I do not know when it will be brought forward.

My query related to secondary legislation and I would like a reply. The current secondary legislation is not being enforced and there were 81 fatalities on our roads last year which were caused by heavy goods vehicles. This issue must be addressed.

I will bring the Deputy's comments to the Minister's attention.

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