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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 19 Nov 2002

Vol. 557 No. 4

Order of Business.

Today's Order of Business is No. 11, motion re Standing Order 38; No. 10(i), Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Bill, 2002 – First Stage; No. 10(ii), motion re Second Stage of the Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Bill, 2002; No. 12, motion re Approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Agreement between the Government of Ireland and the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on Police Co-operation back from committee; No. 13, motion re Appointment of Joint Committee on Standing Orders; and No. 14, motion re Book of Estimates, 2003.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight. Business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m. Nos. 11, 10(i), and subject to agreement of No. 10(i), Nos. 10(ii), 12 and 13 shall be decided without debate. The proceedings of No. 14, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. tomorrow night and the following arrangements shall apply. The speech of the Minister for Finance and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the technical group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case. The speech of every other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case. Members may share time and the Minister for Finance shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 3, Waste Management (Amendment) Bill, 2002 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, and the proceedings on Second Stage thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 November.

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to?

I wish to move the following amendment: "That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the debate on the Book of Estimates, 2003, shall not conclude on Wednesday, 20 November, but shall resume after the Order of Business on Thursday, 21 November, to conclude at 3.30 p.m." I do so first because a private notice question has been accepted—

It might be more appro priate to move it when we deal with proposal No. 3, motion on the Book of Estimates. We are dealing with the late sitting.

A private notice question has been accepted which will use up the time of the Estimates debate in any event.

We will come to that proposal. After we dispose of proposals Nos. 1 and 2, we will deal with a proposal on No. 14, motion re Book of Estimates, 2003.

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed to? Agreed.

Are the proposals for dealing with Nos. 11, 10(i), 10(ii), 12 and 13 without debate agreed to?

No. It is proposed to take No. 12 without debate. We cannot agree to the Order of Business on that basis. This is an important motion. Policing is central to the peace process and to the Good Friday Agreement and is of direct concern to everyone on this island. The House referred this motion to committee only a fortnight ago. It went to the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights at which there was a limited discussion. There was no opportunity to tease out the detail of the motion. Now it is back here and this House is being asked to adopt the motion without debate.

I would like to make it clear that we would welcome and support the proposals contained in this motion but they are premature in our view because we do not yet have a policing service in the North of Ireland acceptable to all sections of the community and that is in evidence almost on a nightly basis with the ongoing horror and nightmare with which the people of Short Strand and other areas must contend. I ask that we do not proceed without debate on this important matter and that we afford the opportunity to the House to discuss the detail of the motion and the issues arising therein and therefrom. I request that that be agreed to, otherwise I will have no option but to oppose the Order of Business.

Is the proposal to deal with Nos. 11, 10(i), 10(ii), 12 and 13 without debate agreed to?

Question put: "That the proposals to deal with Nos. 11, 10(i), 10(ii), 12 and 13 without debate be agreed to."

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Niall.

Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor. Carey, Pat.

Tá–continued

Carty, John.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.

McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, JamesMcDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Connolly, Paudge.Cowley, Jerry.Crowe, Seán.Ferris, Martin.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.

Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.McGrath, Finian.Morgan, Arthur.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Gregory.
Question declared carried.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 14 agreed to?

I move the following amendment:

"That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the debate on the Book of Estimates for 2003 shall not conclude on Wednesday, 20 November, but shall allow for further discussion on the Book of Estimates, as published last Thursday."

I do so because a Private Notice Question has been accepted, which will eat into the time allocated to the debate and rarely in my time in the House have I felt such palpable anger throughout the country about the consequences of the publication of the Book of Estimates. Every Deputy should have an opportunity to have his or her say on the Estimates, even those on the Government benches who are publicly castigating the Taoiseach and every Minister on local radio stations. They oppose the Government's Estimates when they are down the country but they want to side with their Ministers in here.

A debate that is not orchestrated.

Stand up. We will hear what Government backbenchers have to say.

They can put their money where their mouths are.

I ask the Taoiseach to agree to the amendment. It is perfectly apparent from the newspapers over the weekend that a great many of his own backbenchers would like to support the motions tabled by the Opposition on issues such as the first time buyer's grant.

That is not right.

The IFI workers did not believe what the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment told them anyway.

Many Government backbenchers are as concerned as we are on this side of the House at the impact of the Book of Estimates, published by the Minister for Finance last week, on ordinary people. We will have less than one hour for discussion on this subject today and a little more than four hours tomorrow. That, Sir, is entirely inadequate and I ask the Taoiseach to permit the House to give the book of evidence, given the impact it will have on the quality of life of so many people—

The Deputy is in the wrong court.

The defendants are the same.

If there ever was a book of evidence about the bankruptcy of the Government and the fact that the Taoiseach is preparing the Minister for Finance for the knacker's yard, it is the Book of Estimates and both sides of the House ought to have an opportunity to discuss it. Let some of our colleagues on the Government backbenches pass through the lobbies and vote with the Opposition before some of these cuts are put through.

The Green Party supports the Fine Gael amendment and I ask the Taoiseach to agree to its acceptance. The Book of Estimates does not involve only a tinkering with figures but a radical adjustment of the Government's fiscal priorities and Members should have the opportunity to discuss every proposal relating to the downgrading of spending priorities in each Department. I ask the Taoiseach to accede to Deputy Kenny's request.

I support the amendment and appeal to the Taoiseach to extend the opportunity for Members to participate in the debate on the Book of Estimates. It is important to recognise that the discomfort on the Government benches in not only confined to the withdrawal of the first time buyer's grant but also to the Government reneging on its pre-election commitment to extend the medical card scheme to more than 200,000 extra people. This bites at those who are least well-off in our society. I ask the Taoiseach to accommodate the extension to allow Members the opportunity to freely exercise their vote and judgment on the amendments that have been presented, including one from my colleagues.

It is several years since we had a debate on the Book of Estimates and I am glad there is interest in the Government's proposal to do so. Because of the Private Notice Question, the Government Chief Whip removed the Private Security Services Bill, 2001, which was scheduled to be taken between 8.30 p.m. and 10.30 p.m., from the Order of Business. There will, therefore, be more time available than we thought originally. Members will have an opportunity on reflect on what is in the gross voted expenditure.

There has been an 84% increase in spending, before budget day additions, since 1997. The Department of Health and Children Vote has increased by €3.6 billion to €8.9 billion while the allocation to the Department of Social and Family Affairs has increased from €5.7 billion to €9.7 billion and that to the Department of Education and Science from €3.2 billion to €5.6 billion.

It has been a disaster.

That sounds like a decade of the rosary.

Deputy Allen should allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The reality for Deputy Allen is he wanted to spend, tax and borrow more and we will not do that.

The Taoiseach cannot face reality. Where are his backbenchers? This is the place to debate. They are not even here because they are still talking on local radio stations.

Is the amendment being pressed?

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.

Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John. Devins, Jimmy.

Tá–continued

Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.

Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, James.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, Richard.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Coveney, Simon.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Deasy, John.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Phil.Howlin, Brendan.

Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Padraic.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McHugh, Paddy.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Morgan, Arthur.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, Willie.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Eamon.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Twomey, Liam.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.
Question declared carried.
Question put: "That the proposal regarding No. 14 be agreed to."

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Blaney, Niall.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.

Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary. Cregan, John.

Tá–continued

Cullen, Martin.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Fahey, Frank.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.

McDowell, Michael.McEllistrim, Thomas.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Nolan, M.J.Ó Cuív, Éamon.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Walsh, Joe.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, James.Broughan, Thomas P.Bruton, Richard.Burton, Joan.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Costello, Joe.Coveney, Simon.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Deasy, John.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.English, Damien.Ferris, Martin.Gilmore, Eamon.Gregory, Tony.Harkin, Marian.Hayes, Tom.Healy, Seamus.Higgins, Joe.Higgins, Michael D.Hogan, Phil.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.

McCormack, Padraic.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McHugh, Paddy.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Morgan, Arthur.Murphy, Gerard.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Jan.Pattison, Seamus.Penrose, Willie.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Eamon.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Twomey, Liam.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.
Question declared carried.

Is the fourth proposal, dealing with Private Members' business tomorrow, agreed to? Agreed. We now move on to the Order of Business.

In view of the fact that the Medical Council has been investigating the Neary affair for over two years, and the fact that over the weekend the chief executive officer of a Dublin hospital reported that the Minister for Health and Children was contemplating taking over the prescribing of medicine from medical doctors, will the Taoiseach tell us when the medical practitioners Bill will be published?

The Bill is being drafted and will be published in 2003.

Having refused to extend medical cards to 200,000 people, it now appears the Government is planning to cut back on high-cost medication to public patients.

Does the Deputy have a question relating to the Order of Business?

I can assure you that I have, a Cheann Comhairle. It would appear that the Minister has now given an undertaking to establish yet another new agency that will be given the job of ensuring that this medication is rationed out to public patients.

Does the Deputy have a question relating to legislation?

I understand the agency is to be called the health information evaluation agency. May I ask the Taoiseach if it is intended that it will be established on a statutory basis?

No promised legislation has been listed with regard to that matter.

There is promised legislation. There is a promise that this agency will be set up.

I suggest that you submit a parliamentary question, Deputy.

Is the Taoiseach saying that the agency will be established without legislation?

My predecessors and I have indicated to the House on a number of occasions that, under Standing Order 26.3, Members may raise questions, at the discretion of the Chair, about business on the Order Paper, the taking of promised business, including promised legislation, arrangements for sittings, and when Bills and other documents on the Order Paper will be circulated. In regard to promised legislation, all that a Deputy is entitled to ask is when it will be introduced or circulated. The details or contents of the proposed Bill cannot be raised at this stage on the Order of Business. They can be followed up in other ways in the House. I call Deputy Connaughton.

On a point of order—

I am not taking a point of order now, as I have called Deputy Connaughton.

Is the Minister for Health and Children providing funding for the new community hospital in Tuam, under the provisions of the Book of Estimates?

Obviously, the Deputy was not listening to what I said concerning Standing Order 26.3.

I was. I have asked the Minister four times since last Thursday whether or not the funding is being provided.

The Deputy is out of order. I am calling Deputy Boyle.

The Department never answered my phone calls.

The Deputy will have an opportunity to raise the matter in the debate on the Estimates.

If such questions had been answered earlier we could have avoided half the tribunals.

Given the recent conviction of the former Italian Prime Minister, Mr. Andreotti, will the Taoiseach say whether or not the proceeds of corruption Bill will be introduced before the end of this session?

The Bill is scheduled for this session but it does not apply to Italy.

Is the International Criminal Court Bill being delayed to facilitate the granting of immunity at the request of another country?

The heads of the International Criminal Court Bill have been approved and, hopefully, it will be ready after Christmas, early in 2003.

In view of the significant decline in tourism revenues of approximately €80 million, especially in Dublin, when will the tourism development authority Bill be introduced?

The legislation has just been cleared by the Government for final drafting. It is to be published in this session.

Is it promised before Christmas?

The legislation was cleared by the Government today so I am sure it will be published very quickly.

I wish to ask about the timing of legislation but first may I seek clarification on one matter? The writing paper placed before us today is half the size of what we have been given for the last five years. Is this the latest Government cutback and has it been done on the orders of the Minister for Finance?

It is a sign, Deputy.

A sign of the times.

The Deputy's questions should be a bit shorter.

Does Deputy Higgins have a question appropriate to legislation?

I do indeed, a Cheann Comhairle. The building control Bill is to provide for the registration of the titles of architect, building surveyor and quantity surveyor. It is an important issue relating to consumer protection. When will the Bill be introduced and will the Government expedite its passage through the House?

The building control Bill is to provide for the registration of the titles of architect, building surveyor and quantity surveyor, and to amend and strengthen the powers of local authorities under the Building Control Act, 1990. The heads of the Bill have been approved by the Government and the Bill is being drafted. I understand it will be ready for the House towards the summer.

The Housing (New House Grant, etc.) Regulations, 1990 (Amendment) Regulations, 2002, purport to terminate the first-time buyer's grant from 14 November this year. As I understand it, the House has 21 sitting days within which to confirm or reject such regulations. In view of that, why is the Department of the Environment and Local Government refusing to accept applications for that grant from first-time buyers?

That does not arise at this stage.

It does arise.

It is not on the Order of Business.

The House has 21 days within which it can either accept or reject these regulations. Apparently, there are many Members on the Government side of the House who wish to reject these regulations. Why is it, therefore, that applications for the first-time buyer's grant are being refused when the House has not yet decided upon the issue and has 21 sitting days within which to do so?

Members of the public have until 4 December to apply, provided that such applications are covered by the regulations set out by the Minister last Thursday.

Applicants are being told that unless a contract was signed before 14 November the Department will not accept the application. The House has 21 sitting days to decide this issue. The Taoiseach should clarify this today as there are many people who are trying to buy homes and they do not know where they stand on this. Will the Taoiseach clarify today whether an applicant for the first-time buyer's grant can continue to make that application and have that appli cation processed until 21 sitting days have elapsed and the House has decided on this issue?

That is correct. If the contract is signed they can apply. Where a contract to purchase or a contract to build is entered into on or before 14 November or, in the case of a self-built house, where the foundations are poured on or before 14 November, the people involved have until 14 December, otherwise they cannot apply.

That is unlawful.

This is illegal. There are 21 sitting days.

We cannot have a debate. The Deputy should put this matter down for the Adjournment.

This is illegal. When will this be brought before the House for the House to make a decision?

(Interruptions).

The Government should not refuse these applications until the 21 days have elapsed. At least the House should be respected, as should the laws the House passes. The Government should not proceed to implement a measure until the House has decided.

The Chair should not rule me out of order but there is major confusion here every day. I was in the Seanad for four years where we could ask questions and get direct answers. What frustrates me since entering the Dáil is that anything we want to raise on the Order of Business is not answered. I appeal to the Chair to look at how business is conducted in the Seanad. I am not casting aspersions on the Chair but we should look at this matter as it would give us a chance to raise issues.

The Deputy has made his point. With his experience in the Seanad the Deputy can speak to other Deputies and if they wish to change the Standing Orders they are entitled to do so. The Deputy can appreciate that in this House the Chair is obliged to implement Standing Orders as laid before the Chair by Members. I implement the Standing Orders before me to the best of my ability.

Deputy Hayes is suggesting a swap between the Chair and Senator Kiely.

If the Deputy feels Standing Orders should be changed, there are ways and means of doing so.

Having spent some time in the Seanad, I concur somewhat with Deputy Hayes. We certainly got some good answers in the Seanad and we would like comprehensive answers here also.

Arising out of the report of the Garda Complaints Board into the reclaim the streets march and the shambles which resulted—

A question please, Deputy.

—will the Taoiseach inform me when the Garda inspection and complaints Bill will be introduced? Can it be brought forward in view of the inability of the existing board to conduct a proper inquiry?

The Bill is intended to introduce new arrangements for the Garda and new procedures for dealing with complaints. The heads are expected to be ready for circulation by the end of this year and the Bill will be introduced next year.

Is the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform's review of the Incitement to Hatred Act complete and is it likely to lead, as the programme for Government promised, to new legislation which will tackle this insidious crime? If so, when will that legislation come before the House?

There is no incitement to hatred legislation listed.

Something else missing from the programme for Government.

I suggest a parliamentary question, Deputy Ó Snodaigh.

If it is not in the system it does not mean it will not come forward.

In light of the 27% cut in regional county road funding and the 44% cut in grant aid for farmyard pollution schemes, will the Taoiseach indicate when the Land Commission Bill will be introduced so we can discuss the demise of agriculture which we are witnessing?

The heads of the Land Bill, which is a short Bill, are being prepared and it should be introduced after Christmas.

The Taoiseach told us the Educational Institutions (Redress) Act will commence on 2 December. Is that timeframe still on track? There is also some confusion as to whether a further proposal must come before the Dáil before the work of the board can commence. The Bill is already enacted but there seems to be some confusion as to whether it can commence.

I suggest the Deputy submit a question.

I will seek an answer for the Deputy.

Regarding the Building Control Bill and the new regulations aimed at strengthening the Building Control Act, identifying the role of architects and surveyors, does the Government intend to take action—

A question on promised legislation.

—regarding builders and architects who are building houses on flood plains in County Meath?

That does not arise. We are moving on. Before taking Private Notice Questions is the House agreeable to take four short items without debate? Agreed.

Barr
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