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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Dec 2002

Vol. 558 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Community Employment Schemes: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Hogan on Tuesday, 3 December 2002:
That Dáil Éireann:
acknowledging the work undertaken by community groups throughout the country with the assistance of the FÁS Community Employment Schemes;
acknowledging the deteriorating economic climate for people that are displaced from CE schemes in gaining access to other work;
recognising the deep concern of community, health and sporting organisations about the future of these schemes and the continuation of important local projects and activities;
accepting the contribution that these schemes make to the self esteem of the participants; and
calls on the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to ensure the continuation of these Community Employment Schemes, at the same levels of availability as 2002, and to ensure the continuation of training and employment opportunities for the long-term unemployed, people with disabilities, and other vulnerable groups who will not otherwise have access to employment opportunities and calls on the Government to restore the expenditure in the Estimates for 2003 in respect of community, voluntary and local development schemes.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"recognises the significant role that community employment and other active labour market programmes have made to reducing long-term unemployment from 90,200 in 1997 to 21,800 today;
acknowledges the important contribution that community employment schemes make to projects carried out by community, health and sporting organisations in communities across the country;
supports the Government's restructuring CE in line with changing conditions in the labour market so as to maintain an adequate number of places to meet the needs of the long-term unemployed and continues to support priority community projects; and
notes that the social partners will be consulted on this process through the Standing Committee on the Labour Market."
–(Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise,
Trade and Employment).

I intend to share time with a number of colleagues. I wish to associate myself with the expressions of sympathy on the sad death of Jim Mitchell. His brother Peter, who died at Christmas 14 years ago, was a friend and constituent of mine. I also extend my sympathy to the Fine Gael Members.

I represent the constituency of Dublin South West where there are a considerable number of busy and active community employment schemes. I am not going to say one thing and do another. I am very supportive of community employment schemes and I have had much contact with the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, in that regard. I compliment the Minister of State on the open ear approach he has taken. He has listened to us and I hope he will continue to do so.

I represent a constituency where there was a huge unemployment problem. Over the past ten years we have made great progress in regard to unemployment figures. Community employment schemes have made a significant contribution in that regard. Different clubs and projects have succeeded in surviving by the effective use of community employment schemes. I am sure other colleagues would concur on this point.

Recently, I had the opportunity of meeting the Minister of State with a delegation from Partas, the Get Tallaght Working Co-operative. It was founded in 1984 as a direct response to the unemployment problems then being experienced in Tallaght. Partas is a good example of a community employment scheme that works well. It was a positive meeting in the sense that not only did the delegation take the opportunity of expressing its concerns to the Minister of State but it also gave him some innovative ideas on how it saw the community employment scheme projects developing.

Other Deputies will be able to tell of the work done by schemes in their areas. I highlight Partas because over the past number of years it has been able to create definite and sustainable employment through the recruitment of people for community employment schemes. The long-term unemployed were given an opportunity to get on a scheme, thereby assisting the community through their work on different projects. Many of them moved into full-time jobs. We must continue to allow this to happen.

The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, stated in Tallaght last week, in regard to the review of the scheme that we must continue to cater for the disadvantaged communities throughout the country. As far as Dublin South West and Tallaght is concerned, I will be making that point to the Minister of State. He must continue to look at innovative ways of developing the schemes.

There are other agencies and groups, including the employer groups, who have a definite role to play as far as re-training is concerned. They must continue to make a contribution in that regard. Over the past 20 years community employment schemes have made a big impact. They have become an indispensable part of community services and we must continue to maintain that.

The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has a key role to play at a time that there are pressures on the schemes. Community groups are struggling to keep their services going and to keep community centres open. We must create a situation where they could seek grants either directly from the Department or through local authorities. The Minister should apply himself to looking at such areas.

The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment also has a role to play in this regard. Her Department could put a great deal of pressure on employers to be flexible in taking on workers and to create conditions where, for example, working hours would be more flexible to cover those coming off schemes and maintain jobs. This is important business and the Minister of State should understand that Government backbenchers have concerns. We want him to reply to them.

The debate on this issue is welcome as it is important. CE schemes contribute significantly to communities everywhere but there is no doubt a number of issues need to be addressed in regard to them. There are opportunities available to make better use of the schemes and I welcome the overall review of the scheme.

As people who are on the schemes are mainstreamed into regular jobs or there is a reduction in places, as the Opposition puts it, supervisors are also affected. I ask the Minister of State to examine the role of supervisors in the review because when the number of places on schemes reduces, it will impact on them and they should be involved in the decision making.

At the beginning of my political career, people were trying to get off CE scheme whereas nowadays they want to stay on the schemes permanently. However, the rules governing schemes are changing and people cannot stay on them forever as they are supposed to allow people to progress to permanent employment. In the past, individuals would not show up for interviews for a place on a scheme whereas now there are more people than places. However, a follow-up mechanism should be put in place to deal with people who do not appear for interviews.

There is a need to deal with people aged 45 and over separately because the participation of females in this age category in the workforce has increased but in rural areas there is not much alternative employment available. Whether it is still called community employment is another issue. If a group of people aged 45 and over who are on a scheme do not move on because jobs are not available or the skills they have acquired are not needed and so on, we must examine what can be done in real terms to assist them.

I welcome the mainstreaming of health and education services, which were covered by CE, because many people participating in the schemes had qualifications in child care, for example, but could not get a job in the field. As a result they went on the dole so that they could take up a CE scheme and then progressed to permanent employment. They were following their career paths the wrong way round. The mainstreaming of these schemes is welcome as long as they are properly pursued and funded. There are people with good qualifications who deserve full-time jobs.

The national minimum wage has helped people to take up proper employment and I hope the budget will encourage more people to enter the workforce. While there will be a reduction in the number of places on schemes, many of which will be subsumed by the mainstreaming of services, the remaining places should be spread among areas of high unemployment.

I am glad to have the opportunity to make a brief contribution on community employment. The scheme was originally introduced at a time of high unemployment and labour market intervention was the concept adopted to ensure people were given an opportunity to be trained and participate in the workforce. CE has been successful in many areas, particularly as it complemented the great voluntary effort put in by individuals in local communities. Many people who were involved in their communities were not remunerated but CE has allowed communities to extend their range of services, whether it is in the delivery of meals on wheels, assisting people in their homes, supervising youth clubs or providing caretakers for community centres. CE has enabled communities to develop and provide a wider range of services than had previously been the case.

I welcome the review of CE schemes but I also caution the Minister of State to ensure FÁS consults local communities and takes their views into consideration when carrying out this exercise. I pay tribute to the Minister of State following his recent visit to Cork.

Did he look after the Deputy?

He met many community organisations, such as Cork Community Development, and representatives of the unemployed and CE schemes to listen to what they had to say and he took their concerns on board. He outlined the direction which he felt community employment should take and he agreed to return to speak to them again, which I welcome.

It is important to recognise that many people who take up places on CE schemes to be retrained and so on will not find alternative employment because of their age and so on. However, FÁS and departmental officials have recognised this and they have put a structure in place to ensure these people will continue to provide a service in their communities. These schemes give many of them a reason to get up in the morning to play their part in their communities and that is important. The social economy element of the scheme is also important because people are provided with opportunities.

I am glad schemes relating to drug rehabilitation, child care services and so on have been ring fenced. I accept the forthcoming changes but I ask the Minister of State to ensure there is contact with the people on the ground who are willing to work with him to make sure vital services will be maintained in the communities concerned.

I am delighted to contribute to the debate. I compliment the Minister of State on meeting so many groups throughout the State to iron out difficulties relating to CE.

I must bring the Minister of State to see a few places.

Such groups have done great work in the west, especially in small villages, and almost every community there has a FÁS scheme. It is important that these schemes should continue. Many people have returned to the workforce having taken up a place on a CE scheme and learned a trade. CE has been a great success but the limit on participation in a scheme to three years is a major problem, particularly for people aged over 55. I ask the Minister to take cognisance of this in his review and ensure the people concerned are kept on after three years. I do not say people are completely unemployable at 55 years, but it is difficult for someone of that age to find employment in a rural area. Such people should be retained on community employment schemes until the age of 65 years. They are good workers who have developed trades during the years, but who would otherwise find it hard to find work. I ask the Minister to ensure people over the age of 55 years are kept on community employment schemes.

Good schemes have been developed in many towns and villages. In Ballinasloe, for example, coaching facilities have been provided for several organisations. These schemes should be retained. I salute the community employment schemes which have been a great success.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Private Members' Bill. During the years community employment schemes have made a contribution to reducing the long-term unemployment levels. They have also afforded an opportunity to the workforce to retrain and acquire new skills. More importantly, they have made a contribution to the upkeep and improvement of many towns and villages. Every Member of the Oireachtas has seen the contribution the schemes have made to local communities and sports organisations. I know of the Minister's ongoing interest in sport and his commitment to it. I am sure he will do anything he can to ensure the involvement of community employment schemes in the provision of sports facilities is maintained.

Community employment schemes have afforded many individuals, particularly those in their middle years who do not have a trade or skill, an opportunity to come back into the workforce. The schemes have given these workers experience which they would not have received in times past. Sports and other voluntary organisations have given a second opportunity to people – middle aged men in particular – who have worked for 20 or 30 years and through no fault of their own been made redundant or let go from their employment.

The invaluable work of community employment schemes, particularly with the co-operation and assistance of local authorities, should not be lost. We should build on the experience gained. We cannot simply walk away from what has been achieved to date. To do so would not merely let down the workers who have benefited from their participation in schemes, but also the communities which have seen huge improvements as a result of the schemes.

There has been a strategic policy shift in favour of greater investment in training since the days when unemployment levels were much higher. I would like to see this continue. It is also important to note that the number on community employment schemes is now far greater than the number of long-term unemployed. I encourage the Minister to continue with the schemes and, where possible, refocus them. They have been an outstanding success.

When community employment was established, it was seen as a transitional programme to provide work experience and training for the long-term unemployed and assist them in getting back into the workforce. Using these criteria, community employment has been very successful. In 1997 the long-term unemployed numbered 90,000. This year the figure will have fallen to 22,000. There has been a reduction in demand for places for the long-term unemployed. In 1998 we saw 40,000 participate in community employment schemes while this year it is expected that approximately 25,000 will participate.

While the programme is not perfect, we have all witnessed the tremendous benefits that community employment has brought to communities. There is hardly a village in Ireland which has not benefited from a community employment scheme. More important is the confidence the schemes have given to the individuals who have participated in them. Unemployed persons often feel they have lost much of their dignity. By creating employment the schemes have given them a reason to get up in the morning. This is very important. It is difficult to measure the help this gives, but we should not underestimate it.

I understand FÁS is undertaking a review of community employment. While this is welcome, a much more important question must be asked. Is it right to pay healthy people for not working? I say it is not.

Hear, hear.

It is madness to pay people who could work to remain idle when so much work needs to be done. We have seen the success of the tremendous work of community employment schemes and the huge reduction in the number of the long-term unemployed. We have also seen the changes in school services which mean a further reduction in the demand for the schemes as they exist today.

We must build on the success of community employment. I suggest the creation of a new scheme that would allow all unemployed persons to participate in a similar type of activity. The new scheme would need a new name. In any sort of employment scheme it is to the benefit of the country and the employees that they be rewarded for their effort. It is important that we encourage people to use their talent. Whether we have a recognised trade, we all have skills and it is important that these skills be used in a productive fashion. I hope the FÁS review will give serious consideration to my suggestion.

The tremendous success of community employment is obvious. We must build on this success and provide employment for everyone. There is no shortage of work. It costs very little more to pay people to participate in community employment or similar schemes than to pay them to remain idle. I ask the Minister to consider this fact.

I look forward to reading the FÁS report. When it becomes available, I hope the House will have an opportunity to discuss the matter further.

With the agreement of the House, I propose to share my time with Deputy Morgan.

The Minister's proposal to reduce the numbers employed on community employment schemes is an attack by the Government on the most vulnerable in society. The people concerned, who had been long-term unemployed, have been given some pride and dignity by doing a day's work and being paid for it. They have done valuable work for the community such as building community centres, planting flowers and cleaning streets. The Minister knows the counties of Mayo, Galway and Clare. In Loop Head, County Clare, participants in a community employment scheme were told this week there was no more work for them and they must go back on the dole. The same has happened in Achill Island, County Mayo, and west Galway. In places where there is no public transport and the Government has failed to provide a transport infrastructure people are being taken off community employment schemes. Where is the economic sense in taking a person off a community employment scheme and putting him back on the dole? That is not a saving, it is false economy.

Under the long-term integration scheme and the part-time jobs option, people got up and went to work. People with disabilities, who find it hard to get employment on the open market, were employed under the community employment schemes. Discontinuing the schemes is an attack by the Government on the most vulnerable in our society. Will the Minister reconsider her position and not reduce the numbers employed in community employment schemes? Fianna Fáil backbenchers who have spoken here today, my former party colleagues, will have the option tomorrow night of voting with us and making the Minister maintain the numbers currently employed in community employment schemes.

In my parish of Kilnamona, which consists of 500 people, we built a first-class community centre at a cost of £220,000 with the aid of the community employment scheme. Without the scheme this would have been impossible, and it is a credit to the people who worked on FÁS schemes. Those people, who have done marvellous work in our towns and villages, are now being told there is no more work for them, which is not right.

I know it is too late because today's budget will hit hardest the most vulnerable in our society. In today's newspaper it states that the monthly drugs payment scheme threshold is to increase for the second time in six months. What is that but another attack on the most vulnerable in society? During the election, the Government promised there would be no cutbacks, secret or otherwise. It was said in this Chamber today that it was telling lies. I do not think so, but it was very economical with the truth. It did not tell people about the increases in the drugs payment scheme, nor did it tell those on community employment schemes that they would lose their positions.

They promised to renovate schools but what is happening to them? They are rat-infested, the wind is blowing in and out of them and pupils fear they will get pneumonia. What has the Government done? It has let down the most vulnerable in society. I appeal to the Minister of State, a man from the west of Ireland for whom I have great admiration and who has done tremendous work through the years, to impress upon the Minister and the Taoiseach not to reduce the numbers in the community employment schemes but to maintain them as they are. If he does that he will be doing a service to the people in the west, whom he represents.

I do not know whether the Government lied through its teeth or actually believed what it said before the election. It believes it was responsible for all the good that happened in Irish society and that it single-handedly steered the ship into the blue waters of the Celtic tiger boom. It was not in any way responsible for that boom. Its arrogance blinded it.

The changes with regard to the community employment schemes are occurring on the back of the arrogant contention that all is well, that the Irish economy is booming and that unemployment is a thing of the past. In fact, the Government has steered the ship of State into a storm. Unemployment is rising and we will need community employment schemes. I have the experience of having been on a scheme and ran one back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Much of the boom was born out of some of the schemes that were started at that time.

In my case, a small community employment scheme took me off the dole, which can be very depressing for anyone on it. I was almost unable to work after a year and a half of not being able to get work, but what saved me was the ability to start in a small way in a community employment scheme and develop a business idea I had. Within that safe nurturing environment I was able to go back to work, start working for myself, start a business and bring money into the country.

That was replicated in the late 1980s and 1990s. People coming home from abroad joined a FÁS or AnCO scheme, as it was called then, which built up their confidence and allowed them to be enterprising. Those schemes were largely responsible for the new business and enterprise of the late 1990s and now this Government wants to kill them off.

I do not have a problem with regulating or changing community employment schemes. If a person is working in a hospital or a school in what is, in effect, a full-time position, that should be recognised. I have no problem if the Minister says it is a proper full-time job that should be paid for by the Department of Education and Science or the Department of Health and Children. However, that is not what is happening. The Minister is cutting into the very heart of the community employment scheme. Not only is she attacking the area I just mentioned but she is also attacking areas where there is genuine community benefit, where the voluntary sector is at work and where people have a chance to develop their skills and the assets of their community.

The Minister tries to relate everything to the market and have a market price, analysis and assessment. She sees the community employment scheme as a labour market initiative, but it is not. It is a community development initiative. Not only does it help people grow and gain work experience if they have been out of work for a while but it also brings benefits to communities that no other scheme or facility can deliver. The Minister is blinded by free-market ideology. I agree with the backbencher on the other side of the House who called this Government the most right-wing Government we have seen since the foundation of the State.

I do not think the Government believes in the concept of community. If one kills a sense of community, one kills the life-force from which proper enterprise comes. That is what this Minister is doing and we will pay for it as her colleague, the Minister for Finance, drags us into deeper, more dangerous and stormy waters. She should review the cutbacks in the community employment scheme because we will need it more than ever as unemployment rises. It will allow people to refocus, regain their confidence and set up new enterprises. The Government should turn back but it does not listen or want to review its incredibly strong ideological orthodoxy.

I listened with considerable interest to Government backbenchers calling for the retention of the CE schemes but, the week before last, they all filed through to vote the schemes down by voting for the Estimates. CE workers are at the front line in tackling poverty and disadvantage and empowering communities. Although I accept that the schemes are imperfect, in many cases they are the only positive provisions in impoverished and deprived communities. I have no doubt that when they were first introduced by the coalition Government of the early 1990s, they were intended as a stopgap measure aimed primarily at reducing numbers on the live register. However, ingenious, inventive and, in truth, desperate communities made the CE idea work. Now that inventiveness and tenacity is being thwarted and lack of thought by the Government is not just cutting back old branches but felling the entire tree.

Since April last we have seen an underhand policy of phasing out community employment schemes. The loss of these schemes will not only put thousands of workers back on the dole but it will have a devastating effect on local communities across the State. Not only is it a breach of good faith and another broken election promise but it is a direct contradiction of the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness because there was not any consultation with organisations running these schemes or with the communities which depend on them.

We need an open debate about the value and purpose of community employment schemes. The Irish National Organisation for the Unemployed has called for reform of CE schemes and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment tabled an amendment which referred to restructuring the schemes. It is now seven months since the Minister announced the most recent cuts in the schemes and we still do not have a clear picture of what she means by "restructuring". If the current level of cutbacks continues, there will be nothing left to restructure.

The effects of the cuts in these schemes will be felt across the Twenty-six Counties. The cost of these cuts in real terms is an average €24.40 reduction because those who lose places on the schemes will end up, in all probability, dependent on social welfare payments because this Government, and previous Governments, have done nothing to eliminate the educational problems that lead to long-term unemployment in the first instance.

Let us contrast the closure of a multinational company and the loss of, say, 4,000 jobs to the deliberate slashing of between 4,000 and 5,000 jobs on CE schemes by the very Minister responsible for that task. Imagine the outcry and the calls for task forces to be established in such a situation. It is worthy to note that those same task forces never have to account for their spending or the number of jobs, if any, they create. Even their sponsoring Department has never attempted to measure their usefulness or effectiveness. Not only is the Government cutting jobs, it is taking them from those who are already overlooked by the mainstream labour market and it is taking away the services these workers provide for communities who have been systematically neglected over the years. We should not have to defend functioning, albeit imperfect, schemes. We should be planning better schemes with wider provision, a better safety net and real roots to long-term career options for the people involved in the communities about which we are talking.

We are talking about real services providing front line projects like drug treatment programmes, school meals services, child care facilities, after school crèches, estate management and maintenance projects, and local history and folklore projects. The State was never prepared to supply these services, certainly the market economy would never have provided them. We are talking about a real safety net in which this Government is cutting huge holes by implementing this strategy. The cost difference involved, €24.40 per week, is the difference between a person sitting at home idling away his or her time or, worse still, falling into some of the vices that prevail in the communities where these schemes are most effective.

The uncertainty in relation to community employment schemes is very unfair to community employment participants and to the sponsors throughout the country. Any situation in which a person's future, however limited, is uncertain is totally unacceptable, particularly when the uncertainty can be eliminated by the Minister.

I support the proposition because certain areas and categories of people should be protected in any changes that may take place, for example, participants in small rural communities where there is low income from farming and limited possibilities of alternative employment. I heard Deputy Callanan speak about people over 55 and I suspect there is something coming down the tracks in regard to that category of people but I am talking about people over 50. Any employment agency will say that people over 50 have a poor chance of getting a job because of age. Special consideration should be given also to the RAPID areas.

I also support the notion that in assessing applicants for schemes, consideration would be given to projects that provide good quality work experience and training for the individual participants while taking into account the types of services provided and the levels of employment in the locality. The reality is that there are some areas of rural Ireland where there is no alternative employment of any nature. Participation in FÁS schemes has given a new life to participants. It has given them a new sense of personal dignity, facilitated their personal development and provided the participants with an opportunity to acquire new skills while carrying out valuable work in communities which otherwise would not have had such work carried out.

When one is sitting in an office in Dublin, it is difficult to appreciate the realities of rural Ireland, as in my own constituency of Galway East. I know my constituency and my constituents and what I say is true. Community employment schemes are a must for Galway East because that is all we have in many parts of the constituency.

There are people who, for various reasons, will not be able to get employment in mainstream industries but with training, encouragement and understanding they can contribute enormously to their communities by working on community employment schemes while improving their own self-worth. That is an enormous benefit from involvement in these schemes.

If the Minister and his Department accept what I have said, what is the problem? Is it financial? I do not believe that is the case because the vast majority of people on community employment schemes will be on social welfare if their participation on CE schemes is ended. The Exchequer, therefore, would still make a contribution to their livelihood.

I will not detail the figures in relation to social welfare versus community employment payments, and I do not intend to refer to any potential cost benefit analysis that might be carried out of the developments community employment schemes provide throughout the country, but taking into account the fact that the difference between social welfare payments and community employment pay is minimal, the further assessment that needs to be factored in for a complete assessment is a cost benefit to a community in terms of the work carried out under these schemes.

Valuable work now being done by community councils, GAA clubs and other clubs and organisations is under threat, and the threat is not only to those organisations. There is a severe threat to rural Ireland. I implore the Minister not to take any action that would represent a further attack on rural Ireland because the cutback of 27% in funding for the CLÁR programme, which is taking place this year, is enough of an attack on rural Ireland in one year. It is indicative of the poor standing in which rural Ireland is held by this Government.

I support the motion. The Government is deliberately setting out to dismantle the community employment schemes on ideological grounds and to balance the books. After five of the most prosperous years in the history of the State, it has identified the most needy and disadvantaged to foot the bill for its mismanagement and incompetence in office. They are to be deprived of the opportunity to work.

How many on the Government benches know what it is like to be out of work or to be long-term unemployed, including the loss of dignity and confidence that go with it? By its deliberate decision the Government is depriving the long-term unemployed, the unemployable, the men and especially the women the opportunity to get a foot on the employment ladder. Many of the women affected stayed at home to rear their families, a laudable objective. I am reliably informed that the Government intended to reduce the number of participants on community employment schemes by 10,000 in 2003. However, following campaigns and pressure from the Opposition, community and voluntary groups the Minister has had a rethink, but it is of cold comfort for the 5,000 who will be unable to access schemes next year.

This disgraceful decision will have a disastrous effect on confidence and morale within the voluntary sector. It will also dismantle many community based projects. For example, in County Fingal the ongoing historical restoration schemes at Braemor Castle, Skerries Mills and Swords Castle may be terminated. As a nation we cannot stand by and see this invaluable work interfered with.

The changing patterns of life have affected the numbers of volunteers and the amount of time available to them to help community based projects, such as community centres, sports clubs, tidy town committees, youth club services and senior citizen projects. The community employment schemes have been used to complement this voluntary work.

Most importantly, the schemes have enabled men and women to return to the workforce. This disastrous decision will have ongoing implications for communities. It will also mean that people may end up unemployable and in prisons, at great cost to the economy. The Government should take on board the views of the Opposition because the people are disgusted with what it has done.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Kehoe and Ring.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The decision taken by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to agree to a reduction by a further 5,000 places in the community employment schemes is heartless and unsympathetic, especially in view of the deteriorating economic situation. When Fine Gael left office in 1997 we were creating 1,000 jobs per week whereas at present the Government is losing 500 jobs per week.

The community employment schemes have made an enormous contribution to the self esteem of participants. They have succeeded in returning many people to the workforce and provided them with a skill, sometimes for the first time, and self worth. The Minister's decision will impact directly on many communities. Tidy town organisations, parish halls, village renewal schemes and sporting organisations, including the running of facilities and the training of young people in soccer, rugby and Gaelic football, will be affected. The schemes were concerned with taking young people off the streets and getting them involved in sport and other activities. The Government has ignored the social costs of its decisions.

The community employment schemes have played a crucial role in the health services by providing personal assistants, giving independence to the disabled for the first time, while running and supporting nursing facilities, care of the elderly and services such as meals on wheels. The education services will also be affected. For example, in special schools the services provided by schemes subvent the lack of State funding. Similarly, the lack of Government resources in health and sport have also been subvented by the schemes, yet the Minister intends to reduce their scope.

The Minister is reducing the budget for community employment schemes to balance the books. She is not considering the impact of her decision, which attacks the most vulnerable groups in communities. They are soft targets on which soft savings can be made.

At present, a single person on a community employment scheme earns an extra €24.40 per week above the social welfare rate. It is an extra cost of €1.25 per hour. The worthwhile community work provided by these participants subvents the lack of funding by the Government to the care of the most vulnerable. It is value for money and the Minister's decision contradicts the determination by the Minister for Finance to seek value for money for Government spending.

The viability of many projects and activities in every community group is dependent on the commitment, or lack of it, by the Government to community employment schemes. Between January and October of this year, 19,000 people left these schemes, of which almost 4,000 were over the age of 50 years, 3,000 had a disability, almost 6,000 were lone parents and 600 were widowed. The Government is specifically targeting lone parents and curtailing the funds available to them for rent allowances and other supports to ensure that they get out of the house. It means that young women, who for the first time had the opportunity to take up training or education, have been used as a soft target by the Minister. It is not the first time she has targeted lone parents, who are the most vulnerable in society.

Rural communities will be severely damaged by this decision. Despite the limited opportunities available to many people in these communities, the Government is cutting back on their only outlet for returning to mainstream employment or training. I commend the motion to the House.

I support the motion. Many Fianna Fáil backbenchers have also supported it, yet they will vote against it, which is a joke. The Minister probably told them to keep quiet and not to speak until spoken to. I often wonder how she sleeps at night after what she has done to FÁS schemes. The Taoiseach is on a week on, week off basis as my colleague, Deputy Ring, has often said.

I wish to tell the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister of State about Bree, the little community from where I come. It has a GAA club, a community centre, a senior citizens' group, the school and the church, all looked after by the hard-working people in the FÁS groups. There are 17 FÁS groups altogether and I wonder how many we will have this time next year; it will probably be less than half that number.

Some of the FÁS workers in the past went on to third level education, training and development and many went back into employment. The FÁS schemes are important for the long-term unemployed, people with disabilities and other vulnerable groups who otherwise would not have access to employment opportunities. I call on the Minister to restore the expenditure in respect of the community voluntary and local development schemes. She is totally out of touch with what is happening on the ground by agreeing to a reduction of a further 5,000 places in these schemes. I ask if she has a heart because this is a heartless act.

Deputy Connaughton said last night in his contribution that if ten firms closed down with a loss of 500 jobs between now and Christmas, there would be a hue and cry in this House. In one slap, the Minister has cut 5,000 places from FÁS schemes. FÁS deals with vulnerable people who are at the lower end of the social scale and it seems to be regarded as all right to send them back to the dole queues.

It will mean the end of the great work carried out in parishes all over the country. I ask the Minister to say who will carry on the work of the schemes. It will not be the health boards or the county councils because they have not got the money. I went to the health board last week asking for a bath rail to be installed for an elderly person. The money is not available for the work to be carried out now and the person will have to wait until next year.

I know of a lady in my parish who is deaf. The CE scheme is the only place where she can find employment. She will probably finish up early next week and I do not know where she will find other employment because there is no where else that will take her. People with disabilities on FÁS schemes will find it difficult to find other employment.

Historical sites across the country have been transformed by the great work of FÁS workers. I received a letter last week from a person who was working on a scheme. As a result of the experience gained on the scheme he secured work as a cabinet maker. When I left secondary school I joined a FÁS horticultural course in Clonroche. I furthered my education and went on to third level agricultural college. There are people who will never have that opportunity.

I ask the Minister and the Minister of State to look into their hearts and re-think this decision. The FÁS schemes should be restored. It looks like 5,000 places will go this year and another 5,000 next year and the FÁS schemes will be at an end in about three or four years time.

I believe this is the biggest political mistake the Government has made. We listened for 20 years to employed people asking why those on social welfare were not asked to do work for the community. The FÁS community employment scheme was probably the greatest invention of any government in Europe. It was the one thing that worked and because it works now the Government wants to stop it.

A man in my constituency spent many years in England. He came home but he was unemployed for 15 years. He was not well but he was on unemployment assistance. He was pressurised by social welfare to look for work. I advised him to go on a FÁS scheme. He began work in a local community and it was then discovered that he was the finest stonemason in the county. He had not worked for 15 years but he now employs two people full time. He has enough work for six months in advance. He is proof of the success of the FÁS schemes. Only for the scheme he would never have gone looking for work because he had lost his self-confidence and thought he would never work again. This is proof that the schemes work and they should not be interfered with.

I do not understand why the Government always goes for a soft target. These people should be given a break. The Minister and the Government should look at the top end of society if they are short of money. I am aware that people do not like me raising this matter but Alex Ferguson is probably earning £2 million a year from Manchester United. He owns a wonderful horse called Rock of Gibraltar who is put to stud in this country. That horse earns £100,000 a time and Mr. Ferguson will not have to pay one penny tax on that sum in this country. He does not live here and makes no contribution to this country and yet poor people on social welfare who are on FÁS schemes are going to lose their jobs. The Acting Chairman is aware of the good work done by FÁS and the operation he has set up would not take place without the FÁS schemes.

Many other projects throughout the west would not be operating without FÁS workers. People with special needs require assistance and it all started with FÁS. People were given health training. The health boards have now taken over responsibility. I do not understand why central government wants to abolish the FÁS schemes. These schemes have done more work than the local authorities because all they are good for is collecting money. There is a sign outside every town and village in the country which says that FÁS workers have contributed to local projects.

The voluntary sector runs the tidy towns competitions with the assistance of FÁS and does good work for communities. The Minister of State is from the west of Ireland and he was recently invited to attend a meeting in Galway where a lot of people were angry about the future of the FÁS schemes. Is it not better to pay people the €24 a week more than having them drawing down social welfare payments and making no contribution to the State? They are not doing themselves any good but if they are on a FÁS scheme they are doing some good for the community and the country. They are being re-trained and discover skills they never knew they had. They could then become employers like the man in Mayo and not be a burden on the State. The system worked in his case. We should not do away with a system that worked.

I know that the Progressive Democrats would not have much respect for FÁS schemes and their workers. Why do Fianna Fáil Members not rebel and say that it is not right and that they will not vote in favour of the proposal? I compliment Deputy Hogan for putting this motion before the House.

I also compliment Deputy Hogan on tabling this motion. I welcome the contributions of Deputies – there was little with which I would disagree. It is important to put in context what is happening. Some €275 million has been provided in the Estimates for CE schemes this year. That is in addition to €46 million for the jobs initiative and a further €20.5 million, up from €6.6 million in 2001, for the social economy programme so it is far from a case of schemes being discontinued. There is a reduction of 5,000 but at a time when the number of long-term unemployed is down to 1.2%, or to 21,000 people. Given the change which has taken place in the labour market since CE schemes were put in place to tackle long-term unemployment, it is appropriate we review those schemes and make some reductions in the numbers. I am satisfied we will have better CE schemes as a result of the initiatives being taken.

We have three objectives in respect of this review. For the first time there will be a policy change whereby CE schemes, which were introduced as a labour market programme, will be extended to include community service programmes. I agree with what all the Deputies across the House have said and while community service has grown and provided good services over the years, those services were never recognised as part of Government policy but they will be under this review. We will put in place good quality, cost effective and efficient community services.

In my travels around the country it has been made clear to me, and I am sure to all those in the House, including my backbenchers, that there is quite a divergence between the best and most high quality CE schemes and the worst CE schemes which need to be made much better. Part of this review will be to improve that service to the community. No more than any other expenditure of taxpayers' money, the money spent providing that service must be cost efficient, effective and spent on the basis that it provides a good quality service. It is also important to note that a community receiving a service from a CE scheme must make its own contribution. We must ensure we do not destroy volunteerism which was strong, particularly in rural areas, as has been mentioned by some Deputies opposite. We will develop CE schemes where we see good voluntary effort and a contribution from communities.

A major concern expressed in the House, and one which I have made a priority, is that where it is quite clear that people cannot progress from CE schemes, we must do everything possible to try to provide them with CE places. I am especially anxious to try to deal with the problem of those who are over 55 years of age, to whom Deputy Callanan referred, in areas where it is clear there are no job opportunities and who, for whatever reason, cannot go on to employment. We will try to make a special effort in the review to deal with that problem. I have already had discussions with my colleague, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, with a view to looking at initiatives to ensure people do not go back on unemployment assistance and are given the opportunity to make a contribution. If and when we come up with new proposals on that, I hope we will get the support of the Opposition.

And the Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste is enthusiastic. To be fair to her, it is not the Tánaiste who made those cuts.

Who did?

We were all involved. I stand by the cuts in the same way as the Tánaiste does. It would be wrong to blame her; she seems to be the butt of the attack from across the House. I had better stick up for my boss and I am proud to do that.

I refer to those with disabilities who for some reason are unable to progress. Let us be straight about it; the progression element of CE schemes has been their success, as has been mentioned by Deputies, and Deputy Ring gave the best example. We want to ensure progression, so we will improve the training side. Where people are unable to progress because of disability or age or because they live in areas of the country or city where there are no opportunities, we will make every effort to try to look after them. I am confident the review will give us better community employment schemes, albeit with some slight reduction in numbers but certainly nothing which will be catastrophic.

This is an important debate and I congratulate Deputy Hogan on his initiative in tabling this motion for discussion. FÁS means growth, support and looking after communities. It started off as AnCO, An Comhairle Oiliúna, and became involved in education and retraining. The community employment schemes have been the star of communities in urban and rural areas. It is unacceptable and reprehensible to those communities that the Minister proposes to cut those schemes. It is probably the unkindest cut of all because these schemes were successful in the good times. Given the Government's budgetary proposals, we anticipate that things will get worse yet that is the time to change the emphasis – not to take away community supports, but to improve them. As times get tougher more people will be on the margins of our society. People living in rural and disadvantaged urban communities will be the first to feel the brunt of this Government whip.

Last night the Minister for Health and Children announced a cut back in respect of basic medication for people who are ill. This is an example of a tax on the ill. The sicker and more unfortunate one is in terms of one's health, the more money one will have to pay to the doctor or chemist. This is part of Government policy, that is, to tax the weakest and sickest and to tax those who are least able and untrained to get a job and who are in a bad way.

As part of my job as spokesperson for community, rural and Gaeltacht affairs, I visited Mountjoy jail where I spoke to the governor. He said that if one looks at the addresses of the many hundreds of petty criminals who end up in jail, one will see they come from six or seven district electoral divisions, DEDs, in Dublin. The majority of petty criminals have suffered from and continue to suffer from disadvantage. They suffer from educational disadvantage because they often leave school early and there are poor supports in their communities for them.

The major problem in Dublin city is drug abuse among young people. There are approximately 13,000 drug addicts in Dublin, more than 6,400 of whom are on methadone maintenance. I have visited some of these methadone maintenance clinics and last week I visited one not far from here in which I asked about the implications of Government policy and how these cutbacks, if effected, would affect these people and their communities. It will have a deep and lasting affect on these communities. What will suffer are the community organisations which set up, sustain and support these people, particularly in the drugs task force areas or in the partnership areas, which are defined areas in which social inclusion is supposed to be the model and community involvement is important.

I welcome the 16% rise in the allocation for the national drugs strategy. At the same time, the Government is cutting back on those very schemes that will help those people to re-train and re-educate and to get involved and participate in their local communities. It really does not make sense. These schemes are an essential part of our community and this Government is acting in a disgraceful manner in cutting them back.

A recent crime report by the Garda has shown that the detection and conviction rate for drug offenders have risen by 33% nationally. I welcome the fact that more drug offenders are being detected but the fact that it is increasing means that this problem is getting larger in our community. Tackling the drug problem is all the more important as a result of this development. Tackling the underlying reasons for taking drugs in the first place is necessary for the future of our young people.

If we look at the budget of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, there is a cut of 16% for community and voluntary services. That will have a dramatic, negative impact on rural life. This scheme offers a wide range of supports for local help groups, community development and a scheme of community supports for elderly people. In general these schemes are put in place to enable communities to cope in the short-term and grow in the long-term. These community schemes are being as heavily hit by this withdrawal of the community employment schemes as anywhere else.

These cuts will have a further debilitating effect on the aged and disabled, especially in isolated rural areas. This double blow to those who need help the most is very cruel indeed. This Government has decided that these people are a soft target to take the blame for the Government's gross mismanagement of the public finances.

We should be encouraging people to invest and stay in the west, and encouraging new initiatives in communities to keep people there, where there is major depopulation in many areas. It is not acceptable that the western investment fund has been cut by 68%. To create a new dynamic in the west, a new interest and awareness in business and to attract new investment, we need organisations like the Western Development Commission, which it is necessary to support. This fund was designed to create future jobs and investment in the west. The fact these savage cuts have been made by the Government will leave the people of the west without any real confidence in creating jobs themselves and getting themselves involved in their community. Self help and working together to attract new industry and new jobs into areas should be an essential part of our community.

I utterly condemn the Minister for what he is doing. If we look at partnerships, and at my own area of Drogheda in County Louth, tremendous work has been done by community employment schemes. Look at the work of the Drogheda Partnership, go and visit the breakfast clubs and the lone parents working in them. Children get their breakfast before they go to school, they come in for lunch and then come back in the evening to do their homework. There is a fantastic community support in these partnerships and community employment schemes. By attacking them and effectively destroying work and initiative in our communities, the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey has done a very bad job. It is an absolute shame this is happening. When things are disimproving is the most important time to get in and support the people who really need help.

I thank all of the contributors to this debate. It was a useful exercise to hear the views of all sides of the House on the considerable effectiveness of the community employment schemes. The schemes have been in place since the mid 1980s in order to support communities in various work and activities, particularly in resource centres, environmental works, community halls, parish halls and sporting organisations. A wide range of community activity has galvanised itself in terms of community development to give succour and support to people in order to boost the self esteem of participants and the self reliance of communities, enabling them to do things they could not have done without the help of that scheme.

I agree with Deputy Power that it is important that we have people who are healthy and in a position to go to work rather than doing nothing. Many speakers emphasised the small sum of money that would be required of the State to keep people on community employment schemes rather than consigning them to social welfare. The difference between participation on a community employment scheme and going on the unemployment assistance register is a mere €1.24 per hour. If you take account of the material grants that are available, together with the support of the sponsor organisation, there is no net gain or not loss to the State arising from its involvement in this scheme. There is a huge gain, however, in terms of the self esteem of the participants and in terms of the community projects in which they have been involved.

This is not simply a matter of the Government trying to balance the books, it goes much deeper. The great community partnership that has been built up would not have been achieved without these schemes. The tidy towns competition has been mentioned. Villages and towns around Ireland and community organisations in inner-city Dublin would not be able to do these things without the support of these important organisations.

Fine Gael believes fundamentally in promoting enterprise, whether in terms of self-reliance, community initiative and enterprise or promoting individual self-worth. All citizens must have an equality of opportunity to participate for the benefit of themselves and their society. The community employment scheme has developed into an important community initiative. It would be a very sad day for this country if the scheme was reduced even further than it is being at the moment.

I tabled this motion to ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to leave the scheme at 2002 levels of participation. I recognise that their is a difficult financial situation, not of the making of the Opposition but of the Government. The irresponsibility, mismanagement and incompetence with which the country's finances were discharged by the previous Government has brought about a situation where we have a massive reduction in the Estimates programme across a range of activities for 2003.

Where there is clear evidence that there is no net loss to the Exchequer from the continued participation at 2002 levels of the community employment schemes, I do not understand the logic or the philosophy of this Government in removing those schemes. We should have a re-think about this. I was delighted to see the Fianna Fáil backbenchers participating so eloquently in the debate and effectively supporting the motion before the House. They have been around their own constituencies telling community groups that they will get the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, down and that he will look after them—

And they are right. I will go to Kilkenny too.

I know the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, has been doing a lot of touring around. He might have a lot done but he has more to do. I have a few places to bring him when he comes down—

I would be delighted to go with the Deputy.

With the help of the FÁS officials in various parts of Cork, I notice that the Minister of State has been very busy. He is tinkering around and politicising the matter—

That is not correct.

I do not like to see FÁS being politicised. Opposition Deputies have not been invited to any of the places where the Minister of State met with groups. I will make sure the Minister of State will be very busy over the next 12 months in justifying the cuts of 5,000 places that this scheme is being subjected to by a heartless and unsympathetic Tánaiste and by Government Deputies who are talking out of both sides of their mouths about the importance of the scheme while at the same time being prepared to support an Estimate and support the Government in relation to these matters.

People in this House have an opportunity to put people and communities first. They can do that by allowing people to be gainfully employed rather than consigned to the dole. I commend the Fine Gael motion to the House.

Amendment put.
A division being demanded, the taking of the division was postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Thursday next, 5 December 2002, in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day.
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