Enda Kenny
Ceist:2 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the projected total cost in 2003 for the communications unit in his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27090/02]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Departmental Expenditure.
Enda Kenny
Ceist:3 Mr. Kenny asked the Taoiseach the total cost in 2002 of the communications unit in his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3159/03]
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin
Ceist:4 Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach the role and function of the communications unit in his Department; the projected cost of the unit in 2003; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3774/03]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 4, inclusive, together.
It is estimated that the total projected cost in 2003 for the communications unit in my Department will be €273,471, excluding any subsequent benchmarking award. The total cost for 2002 was €256,335. Some €108,941 of the 2003 figure and €97,218 of the 2002 figure is a direct cost to my Department with the remainder being borne by the five other Departments who have staff seconded to the unit at an average cost of €32,906 each in 2003 and €31,827 each in 2002.
The unit provides a media information service to Ministers and their Departments. It furnishes news updates and transcripts which ensure that Departments are kept informed in a fast and efficient manner of any relevant news developments. In this way, Departments are able to provide a better service to the public. The communications unit works an 18 hour day based on a flexible rota of three working shifts. The unit is staffed by six established civil servants, five of whom are seconded from other Departments. The work of the unit means Departments have greatly reduced their use of external companies and ensure they no longer duplicate work such as transcripts and tapes. It is conservatively estimated that, in a full year, the communications unit saves Departments approximately €175,000.
Can the Taoiseach confirm that the Departments have ceased the practice of paying commercial agencies for the production of transcripts? What was the overall expenditure on media relations, photographic services and advertising for 2001? Figures given last year seem to indicate that, in the Taoiseach's Department, some €30,940 was spent on photographic services even though the Taoiseach is well enough known around the country. Any time this question is raised, the Taoiseach is at pains to point out that this saves money and is good value. Will the Taoiseach comment on those points?
To the best of my knowledge, the contract arrangements in place for all Departments for using outside services has ceased. They may seek transcripts or tapes of programmes on some occasions that would not be covered. The communications unit covers a range of programmes and media outlets, but not all of them. That practice saves a substantial amount of money.
I gave information in response to questions on photographic services last week to a Deputy. I am not sure what the amount involved covered. I do not believe it covered the taking of photographs of me as enough people already do that. I have not followed the practice of some sporting organisations of charging for that.
Since the Taoiseach has done so for everything else, he will probably consider doing that.
I am not sure what other photographs were covered. If the Deputy wants that information, I am sure I could find that out for him.
The Taoiseach made a remark last week that he would much prefer to watch young lads play football than read about such coverage in the newspapers.
The Deputy is right.
My addition may not be absolutely correct, but it seems that, excluding advertising, the cost of media relations and photographic services for all Departments amounted to more than €9 million in 2001, which seems an extraordinary figure. Given that we are living in uncertain economic times, perhaps the projection of Government and Government faces should be seriously examined. If we are to lead by example, then example should be given from the top down.
I agree fully that we should get the best value for money. Another Fine Gael Deputy tabled a question to me regarding the full cost of all advertising in the national media – whether on RTE, TV3, local radio or local newspapers – for my Department. The cost involved is approximately €280,000. I checked this morning to ascertain how that amount of money could have been spent in this area. I noted that approximately €240,000 was spent on the Forum for Europe. When the cost of some of the statutory advertisements is excluded, there is almost nothing left. Deputy Kenny should check the details of some of the figures and he would realise that the cost involved is not as excessive as might be thought from merely noting the global figure.
I call Deputy Rabbitte.
A Cheann Comhairle—
I call Deputy Ó Caoláin who tabled one of these questions.
I understand the Chair's practice is to call those Members who have tabled a question first.
Can the Taoiseach outline what role, if any, the communications unit in his Department has in relation to the important area of the North of Ireland and the peace process? Are staff in the unit tasked specifically with addressing this important aspect of the Taoiseach's work? Does the unit address the regularly repeated erroneous reports that appear in the media in relation to these important areas? Can the Taoiseach clarify whether the communications unit also addresses the British media or if that is a function of the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Government press office? What are the lines of demarcation in that area?
On a lighter note, the Taoiseach referred to a question in relation to photographs. There was a significant increase in the expenditure on photographs last year as against 2001. Was that increase due to the Taoiseach having become more photogenic or was it due to the fact that there was a general election in 2002? The Taoiseach might share that information with the House.
It must have been the Oil of Ulay.
On the Deputy's second question, my Department and my good accounting officers would not allow any expenditure that would in any way promote the political system.
That would be an electoral abuse by the Taoiseach.
The amount should have been less because I would have been in my Department less often than I have been there this year or in a normal year.
In reply to the Deputy's first question, the communications unit has no function whatsoever in either commenting on or having any influence over any of the media. It merely reports what the media are saying, and it provides that service not only for Ministers but for a large number of agencies across Government. The Government press secretariat deals with both the international and domestic press, and the communications unit has no such function.
Does the Taoiseach agree that expenditure on this kind of presentation to the media is out of hand. What exactly are 11 staff doing in communicating to the media from the Taoiseach's office? What is this business of providing a service to Ministers? According to an article in Ireland on Sunday, the Tánaiste has five media staff in her office. According to the article, every Minister—
The Deputy should put a question please.
What service does the Taoiseach's office provide to Ministers who, according to the Ireland on Sunday article, were staffed to the astonishing tune of €20 million in 2002? That is €20 million to spin the Government's line to the public, including €250,000 on photographs alone. How can that be justified? Most people outside the House do not understand that most front benchers in this House operate on a man-and-a-dog basis. They have no back-up, aside from a poorly paid secretary. That is the entire back-up for front bench spokespersons in this House. How can the Taoiseach justify the imbalance between the resources he allocates to the Executive and the resources that are allocated to the Opposition?
Commitments entered into by the Government and, expressly, by the Minister for Finance, in terms of providing an element of research back-up for the Opposition have essentially been reneged upon. We will now start from a baseline—
In fairness to Deputies Boylan and Kenny, whom I ruled out of order for making statements, the same Standing Order must be applied to every Member of the House, and I ask Deputy Rabbitte to confine himself to asking a question.
That is as it should be. I agree with you, a Cheann Comhairle. I ask the Taoiseach whether it is untenable to continue to run Dáil Éireann by allocating huge resources to the Government side of the House to spin the Government's position while leaving people on this side of the House dependent on a secretary who also has to support the TD in his or her public representative role of serving a constituency. Is it not the case that every Minister has a staff of approximately five or six people in his or her constituency office? This is not acceptable and cannot go on. As Deputy Kenny said—
I ask the Deputy to resume his seat and allow the Taoiseach to reply.
There is a staff of six in the communications unit and it is a Civil Service function, as I have pointed out many times in this House. Its role is not to spin on behalf of the Government – if anything, it gives the media spin to the Government. It reports what the media are saying on various issues, so the Government is not spending enormous amounts of money on putting out its own message. If one follows the logic put forward by Deputies Rabbitte and Kenny, this is a useful service.
I know that Deputy Rabbitte worked in the Department he talks about and he knows that the five people in that Department constitute the press office of the Department. It is not correct to portray the press office of any Department as serving the individual Minister of that Department—
That was the case when I was there.
It is the Deputy's business if he abused it for his own interests. It is not the case—
We all know what happens.
I am afraid the Deputy does not know. The Deputy talked about the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Members of the press and others who wish to seek information about that Department contact the Department. That is how they work, and the Deputy knows that is true because that is the way it worked when he was in office.
Of course that is true, but is the Taoiseach implying there are no PR people for Ministers?
Most Ministers in this Administration do not deal personally with staff in their departmental press offices. That was also the case in previous administrations. I do not think Ministers would deal with them. They may have their own staff—
When did one last see a Minister not in the company of one or two minders? We are not stupid.
Allow the Taoiseach to answer your question, Deputy Rabbitte.
That is not the way it operates—
The Taoiseach has more staff than are in "The West Wing". He has more than Tony Blair.
There was one staff member when I was Minister for Labour and one when I was Minister for Finance.
The Taoiseach was only an up and coming Minister then.
That is what it was then but things have moved on.
Fine Gael set new standards when it went into Government.
The number of media outlets has grown, as has the number of queries Departments receive. I cannot let Deputy Rabbitte get away with saying there are no resources or funding for others. That is not the case and I do not need to remind the Deputy of the resources that are available to the Labour Party that were not available a few years ago. These resources are open to the party for research purposes and I do not need to tell the Deputy of the substantial funding it receives.
In my question to the Taoiseach I highlighted the erroneous reports on the peace process and asked whether the communications unit highlighted the media spin and brought it to his and his colleague's attention. The Taoiseach said the unit had "no function whatsoever" in this regard. His subsequent answers clearly indicate that it has a function. I presume the communications unit does not ignore all matters on the North of Ireland and the peace process. It must have some function. Will the Taoiseach revisit the answer he gave me in the first instance and address what the communications unit does about erroneous reports? What steps, if any, has he put in place in his Department to address the continual negative and inaccurate spin that is often applied by sections of the media hostile towards the vision of the Good Friday Agreement? Does the communications unit in the Department of the Taoiseach look at and address the detail in this area in the British media?
If we are not all to get the staff required to address the problems highlighted by Deputy Rabbitte and others, why does the Taoiseach not share with the parties and the Technical Group the information the communications unit provides? That would overcome the problem and it would be an equitable approach.
The Deputy asked me if the communications unit has a function in amending or ordering action on what he termed "erroneous reporting" on Northern Ireland. The communications unit does not carry out any of those functions. It has no role in this. If there is erroneous or inaccurate reporting, or something in between, the unit will report it. The Government Information Service, which is also part of my Department, deals with local and national press. I draw a distinction between that service and the communications unit.
What about sharing the information?
I support Deputy Rabbitte's remark about services in the House for Opposition Members. As a result of an incident last year, my party receives €750,000 less from the State.
That is not our fault.
It is. The Government told lies.
Members have had difficulties in recruiting staff—
Has the Deputy a question related to Questions Nos. 2 to 4, inclusive?
I have. Some Members of Opposition parties are considering bringing to the Labour Court the issue of the rates paid to secretarial staff in the Houses.
I fail to see how that arises out of the questions under discussion.
It ought to be examined in the interests of equity and the job being done properly.
In light of the fact that the Taoiseach spoke repeatedly about value for money, will he define what services are provided to the Government? He said a large number of State agencies are involved. Are all involved or do some hire private organisations to provide such services? If that is so, does the Taoiseach not agree it is a duplication of the service provided by the communications unit and is not value for money? Does the unit also monitor and report on debates in this House and the Upper House? Do photographic services include air brushing?
I am not answering questions about photographic services. Perhaps Members should table a question on that matter for discussion on another day.
The communications unit deals with Departments, is part of Government and does not deal with other agencies. It monitors only the content of the national media, not the Houses. If something is reported in newspapers about the Houses, it will pick it up as a headline, but it does not report on them. It has no role other than with the national media.
In light of the Taoiseach's response, would it not be more logical and better value for money for all State agencies to be serviced by the communications unit rather than their hiring the services of private organisations which is a clear duplication of the services provided to the Government?
It is a service to the Government and, no more than any other such service, does not extend beyond Departments to other agencies.
If the work of the communications unit is benign, is the Taoiseach prepared to have the most recent report to his Department made available in the Oireachtas Library so that Members can see the work of the unit and how it assists the business of Government?
The unit has already received freedom of information requests. If the Deputy looked at his newspaper this morning, he will know what information we receive because the unit summarises that news. Six or seven years ago, Departments obtained the transcripts and tapes of news programmes and other events. This is now done by the communications unit. That is its function – to summarise the daily and hourly national news.
I take it that is a "no".
I am still unclear as to the purpose of the communications unit. The Taoiseach said it is to spin the media to the Government, which is at least a new concept. Why can Ministers not spin the media to themselves? They have personal spindoctors at considerable expense to the State. Why is an office in the Department of the Taoiseach needed to tell Ministers' spindoctors what the media is spinning on a given morning? Why can the spindoctors not do it? I fail to understand the point of the exercise. When multiplied by 15 for Ministers and 17 for Ministers of State, it is costing the taxpayers a fortune.
A question please.
How can the Taoiseach seek to glibly justify the unit on the basis of spinning the media to the Government? These people are able to hear and see what is in the media for themselves.
The Deputy is making a statement.
If they are not, do they not have plenty of staff to do it for them?
The unit provides a media information service to Ministers and Departments. It furnishes news updates and transcripts to ensure Departments are kept informed in a fast and efficient manner of any relevant new developments. In this way, Departments are able to provide a better service to the public. They operate for 18 hours per day on three working shifts. As the Deputy knows, this is not what happens in other Departments, where there is not such a range of people. If the Deputy really wants it, I can give him details of how many people were engaged as advisers and in media services five years ago, compared with now. I could do that, but I have been declining to do so.
The Taoiseach should go ahead.
Given that the Taoiseach referred to the advice of the media on Government performance, how does this communications unit operate? Do the media come to the communications unit for advice or to give advice? How often does that happen? Does the communications unit go to the media to offer advice or to look for inspiration? How often does that happen, if at all? At these times of financial revision and restriction, does the Taoiseach consider that the funding of the communications unit and the various departmental communications units might be better spent on the schools building programme, services for people with disabilities or a host of other areas that are crying out for financial input at present?
Those working in the communications unit do not go talking to anybody. They take what is in the national and some of the local media and portray the headlines and data as it comes across the airwaves to Ministers, Ministers of State and departmental heads who would not normally be listening to those programmes or are unable to listen to them all at the same time, so that they are up to date with what is happening and are able to respond to matters. They can supply detailed transcripts of interviews and matters of importance, when required. That saves conservatively about €175,000, which was the amount being spent about six years ago. The entire cost at that time is probably now saved by this service.
During the Cold War, the CIA had listening posts all around the former Soviet Union. Is the communications unit the Taoiseach's personal listening post as far as the Irish media are concerned? Is its function really to see that its Government masters are not in its view slighted or misrepresented by the media? Has it a specific instruction in regard to radio programmes, for example, to immediately alert the Taoiseach or another Department if it feels a Minister has been slighted so that he or she can retaliate quickly?
Is the communications unit different from the spin doctoring and propaganda unit of the Taoiseach? Is there a division of labour between the listeners on the one hand and those who spin out the Taoiseach's line by making lengthy telephone calls late at night before the Sunday newspapers come out, etc., on the other? Is that a separate unit? Is the Taoiseach's figure of €273,000 for the six staff really a gross underestimate of the cost to his Department of the whole communications business, not just the listening but the spinning as well?
I have already provided the information the Deputy requested. The communications unit is not involved in activities other than reporting and summarising what has been listed. A detailed summary of newspaper headlines and some 7 a.m. radio news headlines is faxed to the homes of Ministers and Ministers of State each morning and an electronic copy of it is made available to more than 100 users throughout the Departments at 7.30 a.m. The main news bulletins are summarised throughout the day. Summaries of "Morning Ireland", the lunchtime news, the evening and 9 o'clock television news programmes, current affairs programmes, "Prime Time" and "Questions and Answers" are also available.
The communications unit's role is confined to reporting the media in a more efficient way than would be the case if every Department used separate services, as they did previously. I do not give political direction to the individuals involved, nor do I have to. They merely prepare the report and send it out to 100 individuals across the agencies.
I expected "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" and "You're a Star" to feature on the list. On a serious note, is the information gathered by the communications unit transmitted directly or indirectly to the press offices of the Fianna Fáil Party or the Progressive Democrats Party, or to their respective backbench Deputies?
No, it is a service provided for the Government. The unit has no involvement whatsoever with any Fianna Fáil or Progressive Democrats offices or backbenches. It is a Government service which is provided only to Ministers and Ministers of State and the departmental agencies I mentioned.
I repeat my question to the Taoiseach. How can he stand here with a straight face and suggest that the purpose of the communications unit is not quintessentially political? Its purpose is to kill off stories in the media concerning issues raised by community organisations, trade unions or Opposition spokespersons.
A question, please.
I am asking the Taoiseach if this is not the case.
The Deputy is making a statement.
I apologise, Sir, and will do my best to correct myself. Is it not the case that the purpose of the communications unit is to kill off legitimate criticism of the Government and target people in the media with an overpowering army of spin doctors on the Government's behalf? The Taoiseach has more spin doctors running his personal office than Louis Walsh has promoting his latest pop group.
I totally reject that accusation. The reality is the communications unit takes what is presented in the media every day and reports it. It does not have a political nature. I do not see how reporting what the national media is reporting in a succinct way so that people are informed of what is being said and what is going on is killing off anything. People cannot listen to every programme. Even early in the morning most of the recipients of the report would be attending meetings. They receive an update of what is going on throughout the day. It is nothing more than good sense to communicate what it is happening in the outside world. I reject all the accusations.
Does the Taoiseach agree that his summary of the role of the communications unit is a little like watching them, watching us? Does the remit of the communications unit extend beyond national radio, television and print media to local radio and newspaper coverage? Is it also the case that the articles and reportage highlighted does not always solely reflect on what Ministers and their respective parties are articulating or how it is being reported, but also on how the Opposition parties are raising issues, presenting their case and articulating their arguments? It comes down to—
A brief question, please. We are approaching the end of question time.
I have asked a question which I hope the Taoiseach will answer and will conclude by asking a question he has not yet answered. Perhaps the Ceann Comhairle will be prepared to challenge the Taoiseach to explain the reason he does not answer questions as quickly as he challenges me when I do not ask them.
The Chair has no responsibility for answers.
Will the Taoiseach instruct the communications unit to provide the same service to everyone in the House on an equitable basis so that we can all know what its staff are reporting as they watch us and the Taoiseach watches them?
I will hear a brief question from Deputy Gilmore, who has not yet submitted a question.
Will the Taoiseach make available the product of this thriving little industry to the public by way of the Internet? All these transcriptions ought to be capable of being posted on the Department's website. Will he agree to post on the Department's website the transcriptions, which I presume are conveyed electronically to the other Departments, and make them available to the public so that everybody can see what this latter day version of GCHQ is doing?
Deputy Ó Caoláin asked again if this is a case of somebody watching us watching them. As I have said about 40 times, it is merely a summary of what is reported in the national newspapers and on radio.
National, but what about local?
They do not cover local papers. They pick up on one or two of the main local radio stations in Dublin but only in a limited way. They do not report anything about what Deputy Ó Caoláin or any other Member said. It is not a case of reporting what the Deputy said. They take no account of that whatsoever.
That is why we are doing so well.
It is a service for Government. It would be the same question—
Is that just Deputy Ó Caoláin? Does it not report on other Deputies?
Nobody whatsoever.
That is very odd.
If the Deputy is mentioned in the paper, they would report it but as he is never mentioned in the paper, they would not refer to him. To answer Deputy Gilmore, it is—
The Taoiseach should get productivity up over the 18 hours. That is very weak.
There are no spins on the end of it like those put in Labour Party documents on how it does things. It is all straightforward and up-front.
That concludes Taoiseach's question time.
A Cheann Comhairle, what is the answer to Deputy Gilmore's question in the information age when we are at the leading edge—
The answer is the same as what I said about information for Government. It would be like saying that any other internal information for Government should be put on the Internet.
What is internal about it?
I thought the Taoiseach said it was just clippings from the media.
Please, Deputy, allow the Taoiseach to conclude.
Hold on, a Cheann Comhairle—
It is an internal document. It is an internal report in the same way.
A Cheann Comhairle—
The Chair has no responsibility for replies.
You have no responsibility either to protect the Government, a Cheann Comhairle.
Deputy Rabbitte, withdraw that statement that the Chair is protecting the Government.
The Taoiseach said it was just clippings—
Deputy Rabbitte, I ask you to resume your seat when the Chair is on his feet.
—so why can that information not be disseminated to the rest of us? We have fewer staff.
Deputy Rabbitte, I ask you to resume your seat when the Chair is on his feet. I now ask you to withdraw the statement that the Chair is protecting the Government. I am asking you to withdraw that, Deputy.
Did I say that, Sir?
You did, yes.
I would never say that, Sir.
I am asking you to withdraw the statement unequivocally.
I absolutely withdraw it, Sir. It is transparently not true. Now, may I ask my question?
We now move on to Question No. 102 in the name of Deputy Hogan.
A Cheann Comhairle, may I ask my question?
If it is the case that this is providing an objective story of used clippings in summary, why can it not be furnished across the House?
Sorry, Deputy, we have moved on from Taoiseach's questions and the Chair has no responsibility for the answers. I call the Tánaiste to reply to Question No. 102.
Hold on, Sir. Which are you doing? You said you are not protecting the Government. May I put a question?
No, Deputy. I have already ruled you out of order. There were other Deputies offering and we ran out of time. Taoiseach's question time is 45 minutes. I call the Tánaiste.