John Deasy
Ceist:128 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his plans to increase the penalties for those who sell alcohol to under 18s. [12880/03]
Priority Questions. - Under-age Drinking.
The principal legislative provisions relating to the sale of intoxicating liquor to persons under the age of 18 years are set out in Part IV of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1988, as amended by the Intoxicating Liquor Act 2000.
In the case of a first offence for the sale or supply of intoxicating liquor to an under-age person, the licence holder is liable to a fine not exceeding €1,270. This increases to €1,905 for second and subsequent offences. Moreover, where a licence holder is convicted of such an offence, the District Court is required under the terms of the 2000 Act to make a temporary closure order in respect of the premises concerned. For a first offence the closure order shall not exceed seven days, while the closure order in respect of second and subsequent offences shall be for a period of between seven and 30 days. In addition, the court may order that the particulars of the conviction in these cases be endorsed on the licence of the premises concerned. Under Part III of the Intoxicating Liquor Act 1927, a licence carrying three such endorsements shall be forfeited and no new licence shall be granted in respect of the premises.
Given the range of sanctions and penalties that I have just outlined, it is not clear that existing provisions need to be strengthened further at this stage. In this context, it is significant that the Commission on Liquor Licensing did not make any such recommendations in its final report published last month. The commission did, however, draw attention instead to the need for a more uniform approach to the enforcement of existing legislative provisions throughout the country. Moreover, it expressed unease at the existing uneven pattern of prosecutions and convictions across the country.
As the Deputy will appreciate, the investigation or prosecution of alleged offences are matters for the Garda, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the courts. The Minister is, however, prepared to take any action that may be required in order to improve compliance with and enforcement of the licensing laws. In this context, he intends to include a provision extending enforcement powers to non-uniformed Garda officers, as recommended by the Commission on Liquor Licensing in the intoxicating liquor Bill that he will bring to Government in the coming weeks. The Bill will also very substantially increase penalties for both licensees and customers in cases of drunkenness on licensed premises and these provisions will apply, of course, to persons regardless of their age. The Bill will also include a number of proposals designed to assist licensees in complying with existing provisions, including a requirement that young people within a defined age group carry an evidence of age document while on licensed premises.
A couple of months ago, the Minister, Deputy McDowell, said:
Deputy Deasy . . . stood up the other day and said he would prevent citizens of this State who reach the age of 18 from going for a drink. He wanted to make it illegal for them to drink until they were 20. It beggars belief that he should tell me I am out of touch with reality. He should cop himself on. People who have the right to vote have the right to go for a drink. . . . It is a sad state of affairs that Deputy Deasy can do no better than to come up with the puerile, facile suggestion that citizens aged 18 and 19 should not be allowed have a pint in a pub.
On Friday, the Minister announced that he was planning to change the Equal Status Act 2000 to allow licence holders to introduce a policy of serving alcohol only to people over the age of 21 if they wish. I did not come here to ask questions, but to point out that the Government is nothing but a shower of hypocrites. The inconsistencies are just incredible.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Question Time is for asking questions.
I ask the media to start analysing some of the Government's statements because its members are making this up as they go along. They simply do not know what they are doing.
I do not understand why Deputy Deasy says he did not come here to ask questions. This is Question Time. The Deputy asked a question, whose answer is this: the Liquor Licensing Commission did not suggest any increase in penalties at this point. The penalties are adequate. The problem is enforcement. The measures the Minister is proposing in the emergency-type legislation he will introduce later in the session will go a long way towards sorting out the problems we have had with enforcement.
What is a publican to do?
At last, a question.
If someone comes in who looks around 18, he may be afraid to serve him. If he does not, he may be sued under the Equal Status Act, but if he does, he may be guilty of serving drink to an under-age person. What does he do?
The Deputy has highlighted a problem that needs to be sorted out, which is precisely why the Minister is bringing in this legislation.
What does a publican do?
In future, the licensee must look for an identification document—
It took 13 months for the last Bill to come in. Between now and then, what is the publican to do?
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Please allow the Minister to reply.
If the person looking for a drink does not produce a document of identification, or indeed if he is not asked for one, and it turns out that he is under age, the publican will be liable.
He is in danger of being sued under the Equal Status Act. Between now and when the legislation is enacted, what is he to do?
I presume he does whatever he has been doing for the past century or so.
Publicans have been sued in the courts.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
The Deputy should resume his seat while the Minister of State is replying.
There is a problem—
The Minister of State should answer the question. What does the publican do?
There is a problem of enforcement here, which is being ignored.
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
Order, please. I ask Deputy Deasy to resume his seat when the Minister is replying.
There is a problem of enforcement, as I have said. As far as I can see, the proposals being put forward by the Minister in the legislation to which I referred are the first realistic, genuine attempt in the history of this State – or over the past 50 years, at least – to do something about this. Deputy Deasy has put his finger on a problem. It is difficult when one does not know whether someone is 18 or under.
What does the publican do?
This will sort it out.
Between now and then, what does the publican do?
An Leas-Cheann Comhairle
We will proceed to Question No. 129.
Between now and when the legislation is enacted, what does the publican do?
He does his best.
Is that it?
We have a problem and we are sorting it out. How did the Deputy's party sort it out when it was in government?
The Minister of State should forget it.