Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 20 May 2003

Vol. 567 No. 1

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

I welcome the Progressive Democrats to the list of parties opposed to the re-introduction of third level fees. While this explosion of opposition is very welcome, I wonder where that party was when registration fees were increased by 69% and when the schools building programme descended into chaos. As the Taoiseach has given his backing to the Minister for Education and Science, Fianna Fáil is now the only party in the House that is a proponent of the re-introduction of third level fees. Leaked reports indicate that these fees might be in the order of €8,000 per student. The Taoiseach has given his backing to the Fianna Fáil Minister for Education and Science on this. One Minister of State supports fees for those earning more than €75,000.

The parents of 50,000 students starting their leaving certificate exams in the next few weeks are under a cloud of uncertainty as to whether this will happen and whether they will have access to a third level college when this is over. In the middle of this unseemly row we are told that the Government parties have not even discussed this matter. They have not been briefed either officially or unofficially and there has been no discussion about the matter at Cabinet despite the fact that the dogs in the street are talking about it. On television programmes, both parties fight about this issue publicly.

This is a matter of the gravest concern to thousands of parents and students. The time has come to put an end to this matter. Will the Taoiseach put an end to this charade and the associated speculation? Will he come clean on the issue and tell the people that the Government has no intention of re-introducing third level fees and that it will abandon this proposal forthwith?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

While I do not have much to add to what I said last week, I will repeat a few matters. No decision has been taken to re-introduce fees for third level education. The review, which the Minister has been undertaking into access to and funding of third level education, is not merely about one matter. That is almost complete. The Minister will bring the matter before Government shortly and we will discuss it. There is no proposal before Government yet. As in all reviews or examinations, a Minister carries out the work within his or her Department, presents it to the Cabinet and circulates it to Departments, Ministers give their views and then there is a discussion and a decision. The process is always the same.

During last year the Department of Education and Science spent a total of €380 million on third level student support. Free third level fees cost €240 million last year and the balance was spent on maintenance grants for qualifying students. The Minister for Education and Science asked his Department to undertake a full review of this expenditure programme to assess its effectiveness. That is going on. He is looking at public spending under his Department's various programmes. The abolition of tuition fees did not achieve the stated aim of assisting those from lower socio-economic backgrounds. As we know and as the Minister has said, the proportion of people from low socio-economic groups at higher education is only one fifth of what it is in the higher socio-economic groups. The Minister is, of course, conscious that examinations are coming up and that people are doing examinations who will be going to third level next year. As I stated last week and as the Minister has said, the vast majority of people on normal incomes will not be affected one way or the other, regardless of what the Minister brings forward. When the Minister brings forward his proposals and the Cabinet has dealt with them, an announcement will be made in the normal way.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach has again refused to answer the question. The rainbow Government abolished third level fees. I had the honour of being a member of that Government. They were abolished to reduce economic pressure on parents and guardians of students and to open up greater access to third level education for those from disadvantaged areas. Fine Gael, the Labour Party, Sinn Féin, the Green Party, the Independents, the Progressive Democrats and a significant element of the Taoiseach's party are opposed to this measure. This means that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Education and Science are the main proponents of this revenue-generating scheme and that this is a Government of broken promises and panic.

In view of the concern and anxiety of thousands of students who are due to sit the leaving certificate in a few weeks time, and their parents, as well as those who are currently in the system, will the Taoiseach tell the House and the people that the Government has no intention of reintroducing third level fees, irrespective of what the Minister for Education and Science brings forward and that he will, at least, bring about a situa tion where equality of opportunity applies in a free education system? The Taoiseach has failed to look after primary and secondary schools and he is now using the thin end of the wedge, as Senator O'Rourke said in the Seanad, to screw the rest of the population as well.

The Taoiseach

I am not sure if Deputy Kenny is speaking for other parties. However, the Deputy and his party are even more efficient than usual in opposing every proposal. This time they are opposing a proposal although they do not know what it is.

A Deputy

Does the Taoiseach know what it is?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

That is really good. No matter what comes out of the proposal they will be able to say they were consistently against it. We will wait.

A Deputy

That is a poor performance.

Mr. Durkan

Are the Progressive Democrats against it as well?

An Ceann Comhairle

I remind Deputy Durkan that this is Leaders' Questions.

The Taoiseach

The Minister is undertaking and completing a review of access to third level education and of how best to spend his resources. That is a prudent thing for a Minister to do. He will bring his proposals to Government and when the Government has made its decision it will be announced. I am sure the Minister will take into account the fact that, no matter what he does, Deputy Kenny will oppose it.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Taoiseach demonstrate some leadership for the first time in his life? There are kids up and down the country waiting to sit their leaving certificate who want to know if they will be able to get access to third level education. The Taoiseach is the leader of the Government. Can he put an end to the unseemly public debate and squabbling between Ministers and among his own party? What is the truth of the situation? Are we going to have the reintroduction of third level fees or not?

I am surprised that if the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, could not face down Deputy Healy-Rae in the last Dáil he thinks he can face down Deputy McDowell in this one. One thing is clear – either Deputy Noel Dempsey or Deputy McDowell will come out of this with zero credibility. Is this like the situation last year when we could not see the "Woods" through the JCBs? Both have now vanished.

What is the truth of this matter of third level fees? The Taoiseach seems to say there will be an income threshold of several hundred thousand euro. His brother, Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, says the limit will be fixed at about €75,000. Which is closer to the truth? Is there any truth in the leak to The Irish Times yesterday? Are fees going to be introduced at approximately €8,000 or €4,000? It is important that the Taoiseach, as Head of Government, puts an end to this uncertainty so that people know where they stand and so that students may sit their examinations free from anxiety that ought not impede their progress in those examinations. What is the answer to Deputy Kenny's question? Is the Taoiseach going to reintroduce fees for third level education or is he not?

The Taoiseach

I am sorry if I repeat myself but no decision has been taken to reintroduce fees for third level education. There is a review into access for people who are doing the leaving certificate this year. I wish the House was as concerned about people who will be doing their leaving certificate this year and who, under present arrangements, have no opportunity to access third level education. As we know, 97% of the children of people in higher managerial groups attend third level and the corresponding figures for the lower socio-economic groups is 21%. In the lowest socio-economic group the figure is 5%.

Mr. Timmins

What is the Taoiseach's own opinion?

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Education and Science has, for some months, been examining the €380 million that is, at present, being spent on supports for third level students. The free fees element of that is €240 million. The Minister is looking at that. He has examined what has happened in other countries, he has looked at a range of proposals and he will bring forward proposals. When those proposals are brought forward everyone is entitled to express a view in every political party, including my own, on what they would like to see. The Minister will take all of that into account—

Mr. McCormack

And back down.

The Taoiseach

I will follow my own and the Cabinet's responsibility. The issue will be circulated within Departments, Ministers will give their observations, the matter will come before Government, a decision will be made soon and that will be communicated. That is the proper procedure.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is it the Taoiseach's view that only people earning an income in excess of several hundred thousand euro ought to be subject to a fee, if reintroduced? Has he figures for the number of taxpayers paying more than €100,000 or €150,000, not to mention several hundred thousands, and how many of them would be likely to have students in third level education? What is the Government's position in a country where, if one puts one's money into an SSIA one attracts a 25% bonus, if one puts it into a holiday home one gets tax relief, if one buys a stallion one does not have to pay any tax, but if one puts one's children into third level education this Government screws one?

What is the attitude of the Government on a fundamental question in a modern economy that requires the skills honed in third level education in order to maintain its economic potential for the future? Is the Government going to reintroduce fees or not? What is the Taoiseach's view? We know the views of the Minister for Education and Science, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Tánaiste and the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Noel Ahern. We know the views of would-be Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, and the views of a clutch of dissatisfied backbenchers. Does the Taoiseach have a view on this?

The Taoiseach

In the past few years the Government has put enormous resources into school building, curricula and staffing numbers. We have improved funding for third level education by hundreds of billions of euro.

Mr. Durkan

This is history.

Mr. Howlin

Anything but an answer.

The Taoiseach

It is regrettable that Members opposite have no interest in examining the sad plight of those from socially disadvantaged areas who have no opportunity of getting into the educational system.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

The changes made in 1996 did nothing to improve their lot. It is clear the Opposition parties do not give two hoots about those people.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Answer the question.

The Taoiseach

They have no concern for those who cannot access third level education.

Mr. Howlin

Is there any chance of an answer?

The Taoiseach

As I stated last week, the Opposition parties know well that whatever decision is made, it is highly unlikely that there will be large numbers of the middle class or those on relatively good salaries paying anything.

Mr. Timmins

No-one will have to pay so.

The Taoiseach

The Government will make a decision when a review has been properly carried out and put before us. It will not be made off the top of our heads or based on whatever comes into people's minds. That is not a review and we are not going to do that.

Mr. Sargent

If the Taoiseach is saying some people have too much money then obviously there are other ways to collect the excess. Will he answer some of those in very dilapidated schools? According to his list, he is planning to help them. Is he aware that many of the schools on the list, which is published in today's Irish Independent, thought they were already on the list and were going to get their improvements anyway? Is there a letter to be sent by the Department stating that the plans which were in place were undone and have now been put in place again? Many of those schools did not realise they were off the list and it is a surprise to them to see they are now mentioned in the newspapers as being restored to that list. What game is being played by the Department to give the impression it is caving into pressure and realising there is a need here which they did not recognise before?

I am surprised the Taoiseach is not more active on this issue as I see him in various schools as often as I see him here. Is he saying he was not aware of the rat-infested prefabs used by schools and that he has been visiting only solid structures? Where is the new information coming from which has given rise to the new plan for schools we see on the website?

Will the Taoiseach cease using terms of self-congratulation about spending €343 million on schools building projects? To put it in context, that sum is approximately one quarter of the annual emissions trading charge that will be levied on Ireland after 2008 due to our failure to come to grips with climate change. If the Taoiseach can only spend one quarter of that charge on schools, it will be a sorry day when we have to face up to our responsibilities under international obligations. He cannot give money to schools now, before we start paying the price for our failure to deal with international problems.

The Taoiseach

The Department of Education and Science set out the comprehensive list of schools, which the House has sought for some time, under all categories and stages back in January. The list to which Deputy Sargent refers is an update of the schools building programme and the changes are reflected in the details available on the Department's website. At the launch of the programme it was stated that the information would be updated regularly and the published programme clearly identified a contingency sum. That sum was required for accommodation, health and safety works and other urgent work which arose during the school year. The schools were listed on the website yesterday following that examination and details were published and sent out to the schools yesterday – individual primary and post-primary schools where approval had been given in respect of emergency works, health and safety works and temporary accommodation. These additional projects are typically small scale rather than large scale capital projects and relate mainly to temporary accommodation. The total number of schools involved is 122, 113 primary and nine post-primary schools, and the changes are highlighted and listed in sections 11 to 13 of the website.

There is also a programme involving a list of 20 schools for new pilot initiatives, where grants will be paid to the boards of management to provide maximum flexibility to respond to their accommodation needs. The schools selected were in need of accommodation as a matter of urgency and the pilot initiative is aimed at reducing the amount of temporary accommodation in schools.

It is not a question of congratulatory sentiments about the hundreds of schools on the programmes of the past few years. Substantial resources have been provided compared to the paltry sums paid a few years ago.

Mr. Sargent

That was almost self-congratulatory from the Taoiseach although he tried to hold himself back. He must admit that the Government lied to the people before the last election by sending out letters promising improvements to local schools only for the new Minister to say, in essence, that those were daydreams from the previous Minister and that he cannot accept responsibility. Does the Taoiseach agree that this update will beg the question of how regularly we will receive updates of the school building programme? Will this updated programme be enacted within a certain timeframe or is it just another wish list which will never see the light of day? Are the Taoiseach's officials being listened to when they say that if they had an idea of the building projects required and if there was clarity of funding over the next four to five years, then they could get much better value for money? The funds we allocate to primary and secondary education are quite paltry in comparison with other countries.

The Taoiseach

I agree with multi-annual programmes and they are being examined in regard to education; annual programmes involve too many stops and starts. We have a capital programme in education worth several hundred million euro – in comparison with the €13 million being spent a few years ago – which will allow us to do so. I reject Deputy Sargent's comments on last year's programme. The budget provision for primary school capital programmes was €153.6 million, five times greater than it was a few years ago. The then Minister, Deputy Woods, secured an additional €19 million from Department savings and from other Departments for the primary schools budget. That gave a revised total of €173 million, an unprecedented level of investment. All that money was spent although a few schools were not in a position to take up the resources so the funds went to other schools.

Mr. Sargent

So it was their fault.

The Taoiseach

No, there were planning issues in some cases. The money was moved to other schools, which were upgraded, and all the resources were spent. The then Minister achieved a record level of expenditure of €173 million.