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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Oct 2003

Vol. 572 No. 5

Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003 [ Seanad ]: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I wish to advise the House that I am a member of the Institute of Certified Public Accountants. I am pleased to bring this Bill before the Dáil. Before outlining its content, it should be recalled that it was initiated in the Seanad on 14 February 2003 and completed all stages on 29 May. There were a number of amendments on Committee Stage in the Seanad and these are contained in the text of the present Bill. I propose to refer to the principal amendments in the course of this presentation.

I wish to acknowledge the many insightful, constructive and useful ideas which Senators contributed in the course of the Seanad debates on the Bill. They were helpful to my reconsideration of the Bill and provided some fresh perspectives on a number of its draft provisions. I regret that scheduling logistics did not allow me to translate several of these into amendments of that House. They did, however, facilitate a further more comprehensive and enhanced examination of the measure on my part and, indeed, by my officials in the period since then. For that the Senators have my thanks.

The observations and proposals made by Senators were augmented by a sizeable number of submissions, 50 or so, received from various interested parties. We have done our best to digest this substantial quantity of material and to distil the wisdom, insight and technical improvements it contains and, along with other improvements of our own devising, put them into suitable form to be proposed as amendments on Committee Stage in this House. It was obviously not possible to accommodate all of the requests for amendment contained in the submissions for varying reasons. Some, for example, were simply considered unworkable or unfeasible while others would have delayed progress on the Bill to an unacceptable extent because of the work which they would have entailed. However, all were examined and some will be borne in mind for possible inclusion in future legislation.

One of the latter categories to which I wish to make specific reference is that of legal protection for the term "accountant". This is an issue which would benefit from some further consideration and research and I will request the supervisory authority, when statutorily established, to examine the issue in detail and report back to me when it has completed its deliberations. In that context, I wish to take this opportunity to exhort members of recognised bodies to emphasise their membership of these bodies on all appropriate occasions, as well as the protection which that affords to those to whom they proffer their services. Recognised bodies could usefully promote themselves in a similar way.

In the course of my presentation I intend to give an indication of the more significant areas in which I will bring forward amendments on Committee Stage. Deputies will appreciate that it is not appropriate either to attempt to encompass all amendments which will be brought forward or to have a detailed discussion now on the more significant ones. That is for the later stages of the House's consideration of the measure. I look forward to a constructive and informative debate on the Bill.

The origins of the Bill can be traced back to the report of the Committee of Public Accounts of December 1999 which recommended, among other things, that the Minister and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment establish a review group to examine in detail a number of matters, including auditor independence, the auditing of financial institutions and the role of the external auditor in ensuring statutory compliance. That same month, having considered the recommendations of the committee, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, decided to establish a review group on auditing with 12 terms of reference. Besides dealing with all of the issues suggested by the Committee of Public Accounts, two of the terms of reference were new and dealt with self regulation in the auditing profession. In summary, the review group was asked to examine the following principal issues: self regulation in the auditing profession; auditor independence; the auditing of financial institutions; and the role of the auditor in ensuring compliance with statutory provisions.

The review group had its first meeting on 23 February 2000 and concluded its deliberations by the end of June 2000. The group was chaired by Senator Joe O'Toole. The final report of the review group was presented to the Committee of Public Accounts on 11 July 2000 and was further discussed at that committee on 28 November 2000. I would like to place on the record of this House the Government's appreciation for the professionalism and dedication with which the review group addressed its task and the scope, quality and timeliness of the report which it produced. The members of the review group, chaired as I have already mentioned by Senator O'Toole, are to be congratulated on its achievements. The report of the review group contains some 80 recommendations covering all aspects of the matters under review. I would like to clarify at this point that those recommendations of the review group that relate specifically to financial institutions will be dealt with by the Minister for Finance in the context of further legislation that he will be introducing regarding the new Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority.

Following a public consultation on the report and its recommendations, the Government endorsed the report and also approved the establishment on an interim basis of the new oversight board recommended by the review group, the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority, primarily for the purpose of advising the Minister and her Department on the implementation of the recommendations in the report. The recommendations contained in the report of the review group have provided the blueprint for the legislation before the House today. Its evaluations and recommendations underlie the Bill and, in what I hope is a schematic way, provide for a new regime in the auditing and accounting area which clarifies and, where it was felt appropriate, redefines the roles of the various parties involved in those processes.

At the time when that blueprint was developed, those concepts and solutions were particularly novel and pioneering, and, depending on the perspective of the commentator, some might have said audacious and unwarranted. The latter comments would arise from the fact that the proposals themselves and the thinking behind them were not in vogue elsewhere at the time. However, some time after the recommendations of the review group had been placed in the public domain, several financial crashes occurred in international business, most notably Enron and WorldCom, because of issues including compliance failure and supervision. Those collapses focused attention in jurisdictions worldwide on those subjects, and indeed many of the administrators in those countries, charged with the task of developing governance systems aimed at preventing a recurrence of those situations, looked for guidance to the work which had been going on here, especially the report of the review group on auditing.

Obviously it has been necessary to transform the recommendations of the review group into draft legislation, and that required time, but it is probably fair to say that the road map devised should ensure that Ireland will remain at the forefront of prudential initiatives in the commercial arena. That is imperative if we are to maintain international confidence in Ireland as a place in which to invest and do business.

I will give a very brief summary of the legislation which I am bringing before the Dáil to try to convey an overall sense of what is proposed. One of the Bill's key features is the proposed establishment of the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority, or IAASA. The authority will have a wide range of oversight functions regarding accountancy bodies, as well as, for example, examining the accounts of defined companies for compliance with the Companies Acts. In the case of prescribed accountancy representative bodies, certain aspects of the disciplinary procedures operated by them in respect of their members are to be given statutory underpinning.

Existing controls on auditors are being enhanced, and they will be subject to new audit-related requirements. Other procedures are being put in place which are designed to ensure that auditors are genuinely independent of those companies whose accounts they audit. There will be greater strictures and impositions on companies themselves regarding the preparation of accounts. Moreover, directors of companies are being required to confirm their company's compliance with all statutory obligations relevant to it, not just those arising in company law. The company's auditor is to vet that statement. I will return to that issue later.

One hopes that it will be clear from this compressed account of what is proposed that an interplay between the relevant parties is provided for, based on their respective roles. The legislation strives for a balance between objectives of unduly high standards and those pitched at a very low level, and indeed, in the apportionment of new responsibilities between the various parties involved in corporate governance.

I will now turn to the provisions of the Bill and explain in greater detail what each is designed to achieve. Obviously this is not intended as an exhaustive account of the contents of each section, but one hopes that it will give a feel for the essence of the provision. Part 1 of the Bill contains some preliminary technical matters. In that regard, the first three sections contain provisions that are found in most Bills where there is existing legislation. In this instance, it sets out how the Bill will relate to the existing Companies Acts. Part 2 of the Bill contains the provisions dealing with the establishment of the new authority, the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority.

In summary, this new body will take over certain functions relating to the granting of recognition to bodies of accountants under section 191 of the Companies Act 1990, which forms the basis for the supervision and regulation of auditors. Additionally, the IAASA will have the power, among other things, to: intervene in the disciplinary processes of the accountancy bodies where it deems it necessary; carry out independent investigations of possible breaches of standards of prescribed accountancy bodies by their members; and apply to the courts to compel directors of a company to amend accounts that are not in compliance with the Companies Acts.

The establishment, powers, functions, modus operandi and practical aspects of the functioning of the supervisory authority are provided for in the sections which follow. Section 4 contains interpretations used in Part 2. Of particular interest are the definitions of “designated body” in the context of bodies that will nominate persons to be directors of the new supervisory authority. “Prescribed” accountancy bodies include “recognised” accountancy bodies, which already has a particular meaning in the Companies Acts and is the basis on which members of such bodies can act as auditors. Section 5 deals with the manner in which it is proposed that the new supervisory authority will be established. Under that section the Minister will be empowered to designate a company incorporated as a public company limited by guarantee to be the supervisory authority.

Section 6 deals with the membership of the supervisory authority. Subsection (1) provides that each of the prescribed accountancy bodies will be a member, as well as designated bodies. Subsection (2) identifies those designated bodies. In that regard, it will be noted that various parties interested in accounts and auditing matters will be members. By way of amendment in the Seanad, the Law Society was added to the list of designated bodies. I wish to draw particular attention to the fact that section 46(1)(a) enables the Minister to prescribe any other body that may subsequently be identified as having an interest in the area to be a member of the supervisory authority.

As the supervisory authority is being set up as a company limited by guarantee, it will have to have a memorandum of association and articles of association. Section 7 provides that, following the incorporation of the company, any subsequent amendments to the memorandum or articles of association can take effect only with the Minister's prior approval.

Section 8 sets out the principal objects of the supervisory authority. Those will have to be enshrined in the memorandum of association of the authority. The objects are: to supervise how prescribed accountancy bodies regulate and monitor their members; to provide for adherence to high professional standards in the auditing and accounting profession; to monitor whether the accounts of certain classes of companies and other undertakings comply with the Companies Acts; and to act as a specialist source of advice to the Minister on auditing and accounting matters.

Section 9 sets out the main functions to be discharged by the supervisory authority. In that regard, the functions will include certain matters relating to the recognition of bodies of accountants which up to now have been undertaken by the Minister. Deputies will see that the section also makes provision for: the approval of the constitution and by-laws of each of the prescribed accountancy bodies; the ability to undertake investigations into prescribed accountancy bodies; monitoring the effectiveness of provisions of the Companies Acts; co-operation with prescribed accountancy bodies and other interested parties in developing auditing and accounting standards and practice notes; and reviewing whether the accounts of companies and other undertakings referred to in section 26 comply with the Companies Acts and, where that does not turn out to be the case, to seek High Court directions to secure compliance.

Section 10 of the Bill empowers the supervisory authority to carry out its functions and, where necessary, to adopt rules and issue guidelines concerning any matters that relate to its functions or powers. In addition, subsection (4) of that section enables the supervisory authority to apply to the High Court for an order compelling a prescribed accountancy body to comply with a rule adopted or a guideline issued by the supervisory authority. Section 11 deals with the appointment of directors of the supervisory authority by the Minister. In that regard, and arising from changes which I brought forward in the Seanad to deal with concerns in some quarters about the perceived underrepresentation of accountants at board level, there will now be 14 directors appointed by the Minister, nine of whom will be nominees of the list of designated bodies at section 6(2) with the chief executive officer holding his or her directorship ex officio.To ensure the independence of the new supervisory authority, no more than four of the directors appointed by the Minister may be members of prescribed accountancy bodies. Three may come from the accountancy bodies and one of the nominees of the designated bodies may also be an accountant. There is no restriction of that sort regarding the chief executive officer. The outcome, therefore, is one of enhanced board representation for members of prescribed accountancy bodies of up to five directors.

When the Bill was published, there were differing schools of thought as to the appropriate level of representation by accountants on the board of the supervisory authority. Some considered that the original apportionment was just about right, while others disagreed. I deliberated at some length and with considerable care before altering the permissible level of representation by accountants. The formula which I devised in so doing was designed to achieve what I am convinced is a fair, realistic and equitable balance in terms of overall representation on the board. I am still of that view.

The number of directors can be altered by means of a ministerial regulation under section 46(1), as a consequence of changes made in respect of prescribed or designated bodies. Moreover, while enjoying the right of nomination of directors, the members of the body, unlike the position in a normal company, are not permitted to instruct directors in the discharge of their duties as directors of the supervisory authority. This is designed to secure the independence of the authority. The term of office of a director will be not less than three years and not more than five years. It will be possible to re-appoint directors.

Section 12 deals with the appointment of the chief executive officer to the new authority and also sets out in summary what will be his or her functions. Essentially, these are to carry on, manage and control generally the administration and business of the supervisory authority as well as performing any other functions determined by the board. The chief executive officer will hold office on terms and conditions approved by the Minister with the consent of the Minister for Finance. If the chief executive officer is to be removed, the board of directors will take that decision.

Section 13 deals with the work programme of the supervisory authority. The authority is required to draw up and submit a work programme setting out its strategies, planned activities and intended outputs for a three-year period. This will also give information on the staff and resources required, including an annual programme of expenditure. As it is intended that the authority will be funded by the State and the accountancy bodies, the Minister will consult the prescribed accountancy bodies before approving the annual programme of expenditure. Provision is also made to ensure that the work programme is laid before each House of the Oireachtas not later than 60 days after the date on which it is submitted to the Minister. It is worth noting that subsection (10) provides that the Minister may not give directions concerning the discharge of a work programme or, if it arises, of any amended or supplementary programme.

Section 14 deals with the funding of the supervisory authority. The authority will be funded by the State and the prescribed accountancy bodies. The review group on auditing recommended that the split should be 40% from the State and 60% from the accountancy bodies and that is the basis on which section 14 has been drafted. In acknowledgement of the financial contribution of the prescribed accountancy bodies to the funding of the supervisory authority, an amendment was made on Committee Stage in the Seanad requiring the Minister to consult with them before agreeing to the imposition of a levy under this section.

Section 15 provides for the establishment by the supervisory authority of a reserve fund exclusively for the purposes of carrying out investigations under section 24 or conducting reviews of whether accounts of companies that fall within the scope of section 26 comply with the Companies Acts. It is difficult to estimate in advance the likely nature, extent and cost of recourse to these provisions and, in particular, those relating to investigations under section 24. However, it is absolutely imperative that when such issues arise, they can be examined immediately and that the absence of funding does not delay IAASA taking appropriate action. This is the basis for the development of a reserve fund, as provided for in section 15.

The second of the functions in respect of which the reserve fund is being developed is to enable the accounts of certain companies to be examined for compliance with the Companies Acts. The provision will apply to all public limited companies, other than those used as investment vehicles by the financial services industry, and certain private companies or undertakings which meet a threshold of a €25 million balance sheet total and a turnover of €50 million. In the circumstances, it is considered reasonable to impose a levy on such companies to fund this aspect of the supervisory authority's activities. However, before any levy is imposed, the authority will have to establish criteria and submit them to the Minister for approval.

Section 16 is in the nature of good housekeeping and simply provides that any excess revenue will be carried forward by the authority from one year to the next.

Section 17 provides for the engagement of staff by the authority and makes it clear that advisers can be engaged, if necessary or appropriate, to assist it to discharge its functions. Sections 18 and 19 provide for the disclosure of interests by directors and staff of the authority and will ensure that conflicts of interests will be avoided. Section 20 will enable the authority to establish appropriate superannuation arrangements for the chief executive officer and the staff of the supervisory authority.

Section 21 obliges the supervisory authority to prepare accounts and submit these for audit to the Comptroller and Auditor General. It also requires that the Minister lay copies of the accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General's report before the Houses of the Oireachtas and provide them to the accountancy bodies.

Section 22 requires that an annual report on its activities be submitted by the supervisory authority to the Minister and that that report should be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas within six months of the year-end. It also contains provisions that would require the chairman and the chief executive to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts or any other committee of the Oireachtas to account for the performance of the functions and exercise of the powers of the supervisory authority.

Section 23 empowers the authority to intervene in respect of the investigation and disciplinary process of a prescribed accountancy body to ensure that it has complied with such procedures approved under section 9(2)(c). Depending on the outcome, the supervisory authority is given the power to advise, admonish or censure the prescribed accountancy body. Provision is also made for the publication of decisions of the authority.

Section 24 empowers the supervisory authority, where it considers it appropriate or in the public interest, to investigate the possible breach of a prescribed accountancy body's standards by a member. The section contains the necessary powers to facilitate such an investigation by the supervisory authority, including requiring the production of documents, the attendance of relevant persons before it and the power to certify cases where relevant persons have refused to cooperate with an investigation by the authority to the court, with a view to the court determining the extent to which they should co-operate with the authority. Appropriate appeal mechanisms are also built into the section.

Section 25 allows the supervisory authority to undertake a review of how the members of recognised bodies are being regulated. Under section 26, the supervisory authority will be exercising a role other than supervising the activities of prescribed accountancy bodies. Under its provisions, the authority will be able to examine the annual accounts of companies falling within the definition of relevant undertakings. Essentially, these are: public limited companies, other than investment companies; large private companies; and unlimited companies and partnerships, all of whose members have effective limited liability and which were brought within the requirements to prepare and submit accounts to the Companies Registration Office under the EU regulations of 1993.

Arising from its examination, the supervisory authority would send a notice to the directors of the companies specifying the manner in which the accounts were considered to be defective and seeking to have them brought into compliance. Failure to comply with such a direction could result in the supervisory authority bringing the matters before the courts, seeking to have an order made directing that the accounts be brought into compliance with the Companies Acts. The section also provides that, subject to any more specific directions that may be applied by the court, any provision of the Companies Acts relating to the preparation, auditing and disclosure of annual accounts applies, with the necessary modifications, to the revised accounts.

Section 27 is in the nature of housekeeping to enable the authority to delegate its functions to a committee of its directors, employees or professional or other advisers, as it considers necessary or appropriate. This provision is particularly important in the context of the authority having available to it the requisite expertise when reviewing the compliance of accounts with the Companies Acts under section 26.

Section 28 sets out the procedures when the authority, or parties subject to rulings by it, need to bring matters specified in the section before the court for determination. In particular, it will be noted that court confirmation is necessary before any monetary fine imposed by the supervisory authority takes effect. Section 29 provides for the recognition of the supervisory authority's seal and instruments in any court processes.

Section 30 deals with the issue of confidentiality of information obtained by the authority. It also sets out the specific bodies to which information can be communicated where the authority believes the information is connected to the functions of the body to which the disclosure is made.

Section 31 deals with the transfer of functions to the authority. These are set out in the Schedule to the Bill and include the recognition of a body of accountants for the purposes of its members being able to act as auditors. The section also deals with the continued recognition of an existing recognised body of accountants for the purposes of its members, who are appropriately qualified, being authorised to act as auditors.

Arising from judicial proceedings taken against the Minister in respect of the recognition of the Institute of Incorporated Public Accountants in 1996, subsections (3), (4) and (5) of this section provide that the institute must apply to the supervisory authority for recognition, as soon as is reasonably practicable, after the commencement of the section. In the meantime, however, persons who are members of that body and who were authorised to act as auditors will be able to continue to act in this capacity. I intend to introduce some adjustments to these subsections on Com mittee Stage to take account of other elements of the settlement of the judicial proceedings to which I have just referred.

Section 32 is designed to protect the supervisory authority and any of its members, directors or employees from any liability for damages for anything done or omitted to be done, unless the act or omission is shown to have been done in bad faith, and includes the authority indemnifying members, directors, officers and employees in carrying out their duties.

Part 3 of the Bill contains a number of provisions which, having regard to the future consolidation of the Companies Acts, as recommended by the company law review group, primarily amend provisions of Part X of the Companies Act 1990 which deals with auditing matters. While some of the amendments are essentially implementing recommendations of the audit review group, others are inserting into primary company law provisions that were already introduced by way of the Companies Act 1990 (Auditors) Regulations 1992 – SI 259 of 1992 – which are then being revoked.

The first of these amendments, section 33, inserts a number of definitions into section 182 of the 1990 Act. These definitions are of terms subsequently used in a number of the new provisions being inserted into the said Part X. I draw attention in particular to the definition of "affiliate", which covers relationships an auditor may have with individuals or firms.

Section 34(a) implements in primary law some of the provisions of the 1992 regulations which were designed to facilitate the manner in which recognised accountancy bodies regulate their auditor members. Paragraph (b) of this section adds to the provisions of section 187 that specify circumstances where a person is not qualified to act as auditor of a company. Paragraph (c) is in the nature of a transitional provision. Under it, persons who hold individual authorisations to act as auditors will have a three-year period during which they have to become a member of, or become subject to, the regulation of a recognised body of accountants, or cease to be qualified for appointment to act as an auditor under the Companies Acts.

Section 35 is designed to give statutory backing to the disciplinary procedures of prescribed accountancy bodies. Members of such bodies are already subject to such arrangements, but they did not have such statutory backing as is now proposed. The provisions contain the usual checks and balances and, where necessary, matters can be appealed to the courts for final determination. I should say that arising from submissions I have received from the accountancy bodies and amendments which were tabled in the Seanad, it is likely that I will be bringing forward some amendments to this section on Committee Stage.

Section 36 implements the recommendations of the audit review group that persons should not act, advertise themselves or hold themselves out as being able to audit, unless they comply with the requirements of the Act. I am reviewing the draft provisions that enable the Director of Corporate Enforcement to apply to the High Court to have a person's name removed from the register of auditors and it is likely that I will be bringing forward amendments regarding this aspect of the section on Committee Stage.

Section 37 contains a number of specific technical amendments designed to update section 199 of the 1990 Act, having regard to the new approval mechanisms that are being put in place, namely, the supervisory authority rather than the Minister will be the authority recognising bodies of accountants in the future. It also updates the notification procedures and the manner in which information is to be forwarded to the CRO, as had been provided for in the 1992 audit regulations. Section 38 makes similar adjustments to section 200 of the 1990 Act.

The background to section 39 is as follows. At present, the Companies Acts require that when a company prepares accounts these must give a "true and fair view" of the financial state of the company. There is no specific obligation in law to say that accounts had to be prepared in accordance with accounting standards. Section 39 now introduces such an obligation. It is important to note that the accounting standards that are applicable to a company are those that are relevant to its circumstances and its annual accounts. This means that some accounting standards will not be relevant to some companies.

Section 40 introduces a requirement for the establishment of audit committees by certain companies. Under subsection (2), the obligation to establish such a committee will apply to the board of directors of all public limited companies, other than investment companies. As regards the directors of large private companies and relevant undertakings as defined, the obligation under subsection (3) is to establish an audit committee that meets the requirements of the section or to state in the annual directors' report that they have decided not to do so and explain the reasons for that decision. In other words, there is no mandatory obligation on large private companies or on other relevant undertakings that meet the turnover and balance sheet totals of €50 million and €25 million, respectively, to establish audit committees. However, where they decide not to do so they are required to say why they made such a decision.

The section also contains the matters that the audit committee should deal with in the company. The composition of the audit committee is stipulated, and is essentially designed to ensure that it is an independent committee. This accords with international best practice. This section attracted significant comment and debate in the Seanad and I undertook in that House to look at and further reflect on the provision in light of the discussion. I have considered the provision as a whole and its various elements in detail during the intervening period, and placed in the balance the clear and comprehensive nature of the recom mendations of the review group on auditing on the one hand, and some of the observations from Senators and submissions to me on the other. Based on this exercise, I will be proposing certain amendments on Committee Stage.

Section 41 introduces for the first time in statute law a requirement for companies to disclose the accounting policies that are adopted in determining in particular the amounts included in the balance sheet and profit and loss account.

Section 43 introduces an obligation on directors of a company to prepare a compliance statement concerning the company's policies respecting compliance with its obligations under company law, tax law or any other statutory law which would have a material impact on the company's financial statement. It also introduces an obligation that these be in writing, be approved by the board of directors and be reviewed every three years.

Under subsection (4), the directors are obligated to include information in their annual report that they are responsible for securing the company's compliance with their relevant obligations, what procedures they have in place to achieve such compliance, and confirm that they have, where necessary, reviewed the procedures. Under subsection (5), the directors are required to give their opinion regarding compliance with their obligations.

I would be in agreement with the Minister if he wanted to conclude his statement.

I think that would be agreed.

Section 205(F), also being inserted by section 43 into the Companies Act 1990, requires the auditors of a company to give their opinion on the directors' compliance statement and, in circumstances where the directors have failed to prepare such a compliance statement report that matter to the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

This section has attracted a significant amount of attention in written submissions that I have received from interested parties, in the media and in the passage of the Bill through the Seanad. I have been reflecting on the various concerns and criticisms made and voiced, some of which appeared, either intentionally or through misreading of the provision, to have completely missed the point that the section is designed to address, which is that directors have to satisfy themselves that they know what their company's obligations are, have in place procedures designed to secure compliance and give their opinion regarding compliance with these obligations. These requirements are entirely reasonable and should not create difficulties for directors who are committed to due diligence in the execution of their duties as directors, and this fact has been acknowledged in many quarters. It is neither the intention nor in my view, the effect, of these provisions to impose draconian requirements on company directors, as some would seek to suggest. Notwithstanding this, I have re-examined the section and the proposed scope of its application, and I expect to bring forward some amendments on Committee Stage.

Section 44 seeks to address a particular problem that has arisen with section 127 of the Companies Act 1963 as inserted by section 60 of the Company Law Enforcement Act 2001. Essentially, the provision has the effect of confirming that, where a company makes an annual return on a date prior to its existing annual return date, the anniversary of this new earlier date will be the new annual return date, unless the company opts to retain its previous return date or otherwise establishes a new return date under section 127(9) of that Act.

Section 45 is designed to ensure that for private non-profit making companies that at present do not have to submit any accounting information with their annual return, in future the auditor's report on the annual accounts which has still to be prepared by the company will be submitted to the CRO. This is already the case in respect of public companies not trading for profit or charitable companies.

Part 4 of the Bill contains six sections. The first three of these relate to the powers of the Minister to make regulations regarding matters referred to in earlier provisions of the Bill. These include the prescribing of bodies of accountants and designated bodies, as well as varying monetary amounts in particular circumstances, for example, threshold levels which trigger particular requirements or levels of financial sanctions. In addition, paragraph (j) is designed to enable the Minister to exempt certain classes of companies and other undertakings from specific provisions in circumstances where, and to the extent that, they are otherwise regulated. This will apply in particular to entities that are used by the financial services industry and are subject to regulation by the Central Bank. As I have already said in the Seanad, it is my intention to make such a regulation exempting investment companies used by the financial services funds industry from the seven sections specified at paragraph (j) at the same time as these sections are being commenced. It is also my intention to undo four of the provisions from “qualifying companies” within the meaning of section 110 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997.

Section 49 amends the Company Law Enforcement Act to enable the Director of Corporate Enforcement to act as a member of the new supervisory authority.

Section 50 is designed to ensure that where the supervisory authority engages in its activities and issues reports and summaries of decisions and directions, these will have the protection of qualified privilege, providing they otherwise meet the provisions of the Defamation Act. Section 51 revokes the 1992 auditors regulations. These have now been incorporated into Part X of the Companies Act 1990, as I described earlier.

I hope I have given a reasonable picture of the background to and content of the provisions of the Bill and I thank the House for its co-operation in arranging this debate. I look forward to the contributions of Deputies and I commend the Bill to the House.

I thank the Minister of State for his exhaustive statement on the sections of the Bill arising from the Seanad debate. Some areas were debated extensively in the Upper House and Senators took their business very seriously in going through this important Bill.

The accountancy profession, of which the Minister of State is an esteemed member, has suffered major blows to its confidence and public esteem in recent years. This started with the beef tribunal report that exposed issues which were unsavoury to the public interest. I am starting from the point of view that auditors are there to protect shareholders and the public interest and the auditing profession has a major responsibility to guarantee its objectives are upheld. Reports emanating from the various tribunals indicate that there were deficiencies in law, which allowed certain practices to develop which were not in the interests of shareholders or taxpayers.

The audit review group chaired by Senator Joe O'Toole did an excellent job in identifying best practice not only in the neighbouring jurisdiction but around the world to determine the practices which could be implemented to improve the regime here. This occurred because of issues arising during the beef tribunal, the parliamentary DIRT inquiry, the McCracken tribunal as well as other practices which were brought to the attention of Parliament as a result of other reviews. These practices had to be tidied up. When citizens trust a profession to uphold the highest standards, all that parliamentarians can do is to create the conditions in and rules by which that can happen. There is an onus on individual accountants and companies to ensure that the highest possible standards are met. If those standards become lax over a period of time it does not give a country a good name.

The report of the audit review group took a considerable length of time to produce and considerable time has also passed between the report's publication and this debate, in which we are proposing the necessary changes. Those changes will ensure that our country can hold its head high because we will have good practices, good standards of shareholder protection and good standards of auditing that will protect the taxpayer from wilful neglect.

Upon examining the Bill, one cannot avoid the sense that this could constitute an avoidable bureaucracy that will solely benefit professions and civil servants, while costing businesses money, time and effort. It accompanies a large body of company law, ethics legislation, existing criminal law and regulatory standards and it is hard to understand the purpose of setting up another statutory body. We have already set up the offices of the Competition Authority and the Director of Corporate Enforcement, so why do we have to set up another supervisory body? We should debate that point on Committee Stage. Is this just another strategy to beat and cajole Irish limited companies, public and private, from corner shop upwards, into ensuring corporation malfeasance does not take place? If so, it could be interpreted as going a little too far. If not, and if the Bill is attempting to address "Enronitis" it is already a bit late, given the impact it has already had on PLCs.

Although this will have an impact on large private companies, the reality is that in the wake of the global downturn and stock exchange investigations in New York, PLCs have had to implement wholesale reviews to protect their market capitalisation. They have probably gone further than any statutory obligation, because of the exposure of WorldCom, Enron and Tyco, than any legislation. If people want to get around the rules they will do so, and that will always be a temptation. The issues exposed by tribunals in Ireland and through companies hitting the headlines elsewhere go further than any legislation can go.

Moreover, the fact that one of the biggest losers in this episode was an Irish company, Elan, will ensure a level of internal corporate enforcement that legislation could not achieve. Corporate culture is more malleable than the legal framework around it and a Minister responsible for both jobs and businesses should understand that an editorial in the Financial Times is often far worse for a share than the huffing and puffing of an inspector's report. Nevertheless, we need basic rules of protection regarding the issues I raised earlier.

If companies are already widely regulated and have large legal and ethical obligations under health and safety provisions as well as environmental and fiscal legislation, not to mention existing company and commercial law, why should they have any problems complying with this Bill? The answer is that nothing is free and the office has to be funded. Professional services like auditors, solicitors, engineers and planners have to be engaged, new standards of documentation must be maintained, an extra head-count is incurred, product and service portfolios are impinged upon, insurance is hiked and the board of management and directors are implicated. In brief, it will cost a lot of private capital to implement this Act's provisions at a time when there is a downturn in the economy and to bring a statutory regime to a situation the market probably arrived at culturally 18 months ago. Is it necessary to have another regulator?

Many regulators have been established recently and there is a lot of empire-building going on in regulatory authorities. Those authorities could be housed in one body to deal with cross-cutting issues. There could be common legal depart ments, common investigative departments and common inspectorates for the authorities set up to deal with taxis, airlines, financial services and, now, the accountancy profession. This should be examined in the context of an overall competition and regulatory authority. We do not need empire-building to resolve these issues, particularly new empire-building with IAASA.

We should encourage questions as to what level of regulation assists business, investment and new entrants setting up, and what level of regulation works against them. An examination of the Bill shows there are positive elements that can be isolated but these could be brought within the remit of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and I am interested in the Minister of State's response to this. The Bill provides ample opportunity for Government to drive efficiencies within its own bodies and the idea of further levies on the private sector or the tax-payer to fund IAASA is possibly unnecessary. There is no reason to have the Competition Authority, the ODCE and the IAASA as stand-alone bodies when both operational efficiencies and effectiveness could be improved by having one overarching body with a clear concise remit,

This Bill is a compromise. There was much debate on whether one wanted totally independent regulation by the State or whether self-regulation should continue, albeit supervised by IAASA. That goes to the heart of the Bill. I am prepared to give the Minister of State's proposal a chance on the basis of a number of measures dealing with IAASA's powers in the legislation. It will be empowered to intervene in the disciplinary practice of accountancy bodies where it deems it necessary and carry out independent investigations of possible breaches of standards of prescribed bodies or their members and apply to the courts to compel directors of a company to amend accounts not in compliance with the Companies Acts. That is an important power.

That the work programme of the new body will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas on an annual basis under section 13 is important. The chairman and the chief executive of IAASA will be required to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts under section 22. That is also an important provision. These provisions alone give me comfort that if the system of supervised self-regulation does not work, it will become apparent after a while, in terms of investigation by the Committee of Public Accounts and examination of annual reports, and the issue can be revisited in the future.

The composition of IAASA will be crucial to its success. It must be seen to be operating in a genuinely independent way in the conduct of its supervisory function. Section 11 deals with the directors of the supervisory body and there is the issue of the number of directors from various bodies who should be members thereof. Representations have been made in respect of the 13 positions on the body to ascertain who should be nominated to it, what level of representation the prescribed bodies should have and what level of expertise the body should have. Three nominations from the designated accountancy bodies have been proposed – two or three are the numbers that have been mentioned. Business representation and expertise that can only come through the accountancy profession and financial directors of companies should be brought to the fore in the nomination process that, ultimately, will have to be brought into play.

We are amending the legislation in that regard.

I am glad the Minister of State has said he is taking account of the representations that have been made in that respect.

Section 11 states that eight of the directors will be nominees of the designated bodies in terms of the social partners and so on, one will be the chief executive officer of IAASA and this will leave four open ministerial nominees. It is important that there is consumer, academic and small business representation on the body. Perhaps we should not amend this section but rather leave future Ministers with the flexibility to ensure that these needs are met.

We have also provided for that.

That is welcome. The Government is concerned that auditors can offer a mix of services in terms of audit and management consultancy and can earn more than they classically would have done from audit, hence allowing the perception to arise post-Enron that they have gone soft on top clients. There may or may not be some truth in this, but it ignores some key global changes that have taken place following the settlement of the Andersen Consulting legal case that ran from 1989 to 1992. These huge accountancy firms have not only had an IPO but they have also tended to spin-off or sell off their management consultancy division. For example, Arthur Andersen management consultancy limps along, but it is unique in so far as its audit section was the worst affected. Ernst & Young sold its management consultancy to Cap Gemini, KPMG has spun off as Bearing Point and PricewaterhouseCoopers has sold its management consultancy to IBM. There have been many changes in recent years, even during the course of many of the unsavoury matters that came to our attention. This has had the dual effect of at the same time increasing the obligations of the mostly publicly funded audit firms and plcs and of reducing their level of services by virtue of the spin-offs made in the run-up to the successful IPOs. Is it still necessary, therefore, to look into how auditors conduct audits in companies of major pubic and private standing? The answer to that is "yes", but only as long as the penalties that can be imposed by IAASA, under the regulations of the authority to which the auditing firm belongs, are clear. How this master audit is done and who does it is a bigger question. Will it be the board of IAASA, which as it is currently constituted, will have only two qualified accountants out of the 13 members sitting on it? The answer must surely be "no", but to where does one turn; does one go back to the five? We know that this would fly directly in the face of international best practice where 40% of the board in similar bodies comprise experts from the audit profession. We should not be dependent on a political appointee or a neophyte of some description to conclude whether an audit was independent, judicious or prudent.

The premise of all company legislation is that all companies are large, complex entities, with significant internal resources governing the maintenance of records and the production of financial statements, and whose directors are considered to be knowledgeable and sophisticated business people. It assumes, further, that the external auditor is one of the big five firms which presents itself once a year to carry out purely audit procedures. This premise does not represent the reality of business for the vast majority of companies registered with the Companies Registration Office. More than 95% of companies are small, owner dominated companies in so far as the directors and management comprise the two persons who were allocated shares on incorporation and who rely on the accountant or the audit to mind them in their efforts to carry on the affairs of the company and to keep the company compliant with mainly tax issues, including VAT, PAYE, PRSI, corporation tax, income tax and filing obligations under the Companies Acts.

That auditors of such small companies are now culpable and liable under this Bill, the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud) Act 2001, section 74 of the Companies (Amendment) Act 2001 or the Companies (Amendment) Act 2000 – being indictable officers for failing to keep the seven statutory registers – is an over the top response to all of the issues about which I have spoken. Small companies which could not have been involved or would not have had the resources to be involved in the various "Enronitis" that has gone on, in the tribunals established or in association with the big players in the market could not be charged with the same responsibilities as the major public limited companies or the large private companies this Bill is setting out to tackle. The scandals over the years involved a small number of very large practices carrying out audits of the accounts of publicly quoted holding companies and their subsidiaries and branches.

The majority of accountants in small practice are of the view that the audit exemption threshold and the turnover threshold for small companies introduced in 1999 should be substantially raised to a more realistic level. The Minister of State indicated that he is prepared to do something in this regard. The amount of extra work that arises from the recent and proposed legislative changes is making small audit unaffordable, placing an enormous burden on small business and affecting their competitiveness.

I wish to draw the attention of the Minister of State to the following matters. The Company Law Enforcement Act 2001 imposes a mandatory duty on the auditor of all companies to report company law infringements vis-à-vis section 74 reports where the auditor reports directly to the Director of Corporate Enforcement, where the company or an officer has committed an indictable offence. The Companies Act 2001 was used by legislators to create some 400 indictable offences for auditors, who are not company law specialists, to detect and report. The suggestion that auditors are expected to be familiar with the more than 400 possible breaches is impracticable and unworkable at small practice level.

Under this Bill, it is proposed to include in the director's report a statement of compliance with all relevant legislation. The auditor must refer to any breaches of law in his or her audit report. There currently exists more than 400 offences under the Companies Acts. Effectively, the auditor must carry out a legal audit as well as a financial audit. The Bill extends the reporting requirement to breaches of environmental legalisation, employment legislation, Road Traffic Acts, Central Bank Acts, Health and Safety Authority legislation, food hygiene laws and any legislation considered relevant to the conduct of the company's affairs.

Legal opinion would suggest that if an auditor considers that he is not sufficiently competent to carry out a review, he or she must engage a number of external persons who are sufficiently competent to review compliance with legislation in their respective specialist fields. This type of legislation applies in the United States only to companies listed on the stock exchange whose turnover exceeds $1.2 billion. I do not want to see such a regime applying in this jurisdiction. The Minister of State might get an opportunity at the end of the debate to set out his position regarding the matters I mention.

I will make sure the procedures are in place.

All companies commence with a small and possibly risky start-up operation. Because of legal exposure felt by both directors and auditors, entrepreneurs with new ideas will set up in, or move their ventures to, less punitive jurisdictions where legislation quite properly sets out the role of the auditor as a watchdog rather than a bloodhound.

Deputy Howlin and I were recently on a trade mission with the Tánaiste, looking at research and development projects and how they can be commercialised so as to develop into start-up small businesses. The regime all such companies will look at will involve not just the benign nature of the grant assistance they would get to establish business, but also a lot of other issues, including the regulatory regime in the jurisdiction, particularly in relation to financial and auditing criteria, and the imposition or otherwise that would have on their competitiveness.

On account of the significant number of orders made by the accountancy bodies against their members engaged in small practice in this country, the professions will possibly have great difficulty in attracting people into public practice to audit the financial statements of small companies.

Regarding the audit exemption, the obvious and most realistic amendment to the proposed Bill is to increase the limit to a substantial and realistic commercial level. Exemption is permitted under the 1978 company law directive. For a change, the EU does not have a problem with this. Under this directive, small companies are exempted from filing full accounts under the audit requirements. The turnover threshold in many of the jurisdictions with which we compete is €6.3 million. In the United States, which, following the events of 11 September 2001, is most vocal in the area of money laundering, company law permits exemption from the burden of audit for companies whose turnover does not exceed a significantly greater sum than that to which exemption applies in this jurisdiction.

In the UK, the company law review group chaired by Margaret Beckett MP last year recommended an increase in the order of exemption threshold for small companies to €7.7 million. I do not think we should go that far in this jurisdiction, coming, as we are, from a very low level, but the Minister should have the authority to increase the figure substantially in the years ahead. The accountancy bodies do not have such authority.

Neither do the accountancy bodies in Britain.

It appears to be the view of some people that a significant rise is required to exempt small practitioners from the particular onus of responsibility. I draw attention to one of the submissions I received from the high-tech sector. Peter McManamon of ParthusCeva and chairman of the ICT Ireland taxation working group has described the Bill as one of the most far-reaching items of legislation ever introduced in this country, which is a tribute to the measure we are discussing today.

If we only had a euro for every such description.

Exactly. It is like every election ever held, it is always the most important election in the history of the State.

The ICT sector supports and applauds the spirit of the legislation, but has expressed concerns in the form of its submission to the Opposition as well as to Government in relation to corporate governance from the accounting perspective. I would like the Minister of State, in the course of his concluding remarks, to refer to the statements made by people like Mr. McManamon and to offer some hope that the draconian regime proposed, or perceived by people in the high-tech sector to be proposed, will not act as a major disincentive to people, particularly those taking on the role of non-executive directors.

One of the issues discussed at length in the Seanad debate was the director's compliance statement. The proposed requirement that all company directors prepare an annual compliance statement is impractical, unnecessary and unwieldy, and comes with a heavy price tag. The requirement is also unnecessary given in particular the extent of recent reforms such as the establishment of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and other new company and competition compliance legislation.

The existing measures are working well. They are not long in operation and should be allowed to develop and tackle the remaining compliance problems that exist. To challenge the vast majority of compliant companies with yet more regulation at this time and in this way is ridiculous. The cost of this proposal in terms of personnel who will be available to act as non-executive directors and the hiring of expensive legal and other expertise to put together a compliance statement is going over the top.

In the US, the requirement under the Sarbanes-Oxley Act states that only the chief executive officer and chief financial officer of public companies certify to the Securities and Exchange Commission that accounts fairly present in all material respects the operations and financial condition of the business. This Bill requires all directors of all but the small audit-exempt companies to certify in their annual reports, rather than to a competent authority, that they comply with company and tax law and all other relevant obligations that may materially affect the company's financial statements.

The Minister is asking all directors to sign a compliance statement covering every aspect of the company's operations. That is the perception.

We are bringing in an amendment.

The Minister has indicated he will bring in an amendment but we have not seen it yet. I can deal only with what is in front of me. The way the arrangements are constituted is unfair and impractical. Every director cannot be expected to be fully familiar with every activity of the business. That proposal in the legislation would bring about the situation where a non-executive director like myself, or any Member of the House, or someone outside it, will be expected as part of their day job to employ expertise to ensure—

We have already changed that.

The Bill as constituted will require that every non-executive director and director of a business will be expected to know and be familiar with all aspects of the business, which only the chairman, the chief executive or the financial director could be expected to know.

We do not have a serious problem with the establishment of audit committees for large private companies. The fact that an explanation must be given for not setting up an audit committee suggests that those whose names appear in the annual report would be perceived as hiding something. If a private company publishes an annual report which reveals the names of people who do not feel obliged or feel it unnecessary under the turnover limits imposed to set up audit committees, a cloud of suspicion will hang over those private companies. I ask the Minister to look at this issue again to see if it is necessary for those companies which will have done nothing wrong to have the names published in that way. The people involved should be able to explain, perhaps to IAASA, why they have not set up an audit committee. To publish the names gives the impression of something having been done behind closed doors and creates an element of suspicion in relation to those people's activities.

Recognition of the term "accountant" was the subject of much debate in the Seanad. I am disappointed the Minister of State has not indicated in his speech today what the definition of accountant is likely to be in the amended form. Turf accountants were mentioned in the other House as a possible interpretation. We all know that turf accountants are very poor people. A former Member and colleague of mine would be interested in the term "accountant" in this regard. He is doing quite well as regards tax compliance under the term, "turf accountant".

It is important to set out criteria on who can get involved in the accountancy business and the nature of such involvement. We should have proper controls regarding turf accountants from the point of view of the consumer, taxpayer and auditing profession. I welcome the fact that this matter is being examined.

The Bill provides that fines for those in breach of the procedures of this legislation must be verified by the High Court. I do not see why, if we have a supervisory regulatory body in the form of IAASA, such matters should be referred to the High Court. There are clear-cut disciplinary procedures in place to deal with problems involving an accountancy practice or auditing company which breaches this legislation. There is also agreement on what those disciplinary procedures will be. From my understanding of the Bill those matters will have to be verified by the High Court. Perhaps the Minister of State will clarify that point.

It would be remiss of me in such a debate not to address the aftermath of the Blaney inquiry which commenced in 1997 and which has recently concluded its deliberations. The chief executive of the Institute of Chartered Accountants described the findings of that inquiry – which was painful for him and the institute – as "very serious for those affected". The Minister, in welcoming the findings, described them as "robust" and, as "obviously very serious for those concerned". The companies involved appear to have missed the so-called very serious nature of the findings expressed. Deloitte & Touche noted the technical nature of the findings against the firm regarding work for private companies. As it happens, Dunnes Stores, one of the biggest companies in this country, was involved. Mr. Oliver Freeney also sought to play down the nature of the findings. That is a little incredible when one recalls that one of the findings against the firm related to the fundamental issue of the independence of audit work carried out for the above mentioned company.

The vast majority of accountants are decent, honest, law-abiding people seeking to meet their professional responsibilities. The responses by the people I mentioned earlier do not provide the type of confidence or level of understanding required by the general public of professional bodies and companies charged with working in the public interest, on behalf of shareholders and in providing confidence in our system by ensuring that people obliged to pay tax do so. If there is not a fundamental change of culture in this regard, this House will have no option but to introduce even more draconian legislation to ensure such accountancy practices comply.

I am interested in hearing what the Minister intends to do about the recommendations outlined in the Blaney inquiry. Has she written to the institute and the two firms involved expressing concern about their comments? Has she inquired what actions they have taken to ensure there is no repeat of the events? In the absence of a clear public statement by these firms, will she indicate to this House at a future date if they will be awarded public work? We must take a serious view of the wrongs which took place in the 1980s and 1990s. This Bill, in my view, offers a framework for the future. However, we must also deal decisively with the past and, in this case, the very recent past given that it is only a matter of weeks since the institute published its findings regarding the Blaney inquiry.

The introduction of this Bill is an important development for the accountancy profession and business. I do not wish to see a situation develop whereby we go from one extreme to the other in putting in place an over-the-top compliance regime.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this legislation, the first companies Bill to fall into my purview as Labour Party spokesperson on enterprise, trade and employment. This is important legislation. I am not sure I would go as far as Deputy Hogan who intimated it was the most important Bill ever to come before the House. Such characterisations are very frequent nowadays.

I welcome the Minister of State's contribution which outlined in clear form the contents of each section. I would have welcomed his speech being circulated with the original explanatory memorandum. Perhaps we might, as a way of assisting in the analysis of future legislation, look at providing more comprehensive explanatory memoranda of the nature normally provided in Second Stage scripts. The civil servants may not be too keen on that because they would then be at a loss to know what to do on Second Stage. Such explanatory memoranda would facilitate debate.

There has been considerable debate on these proposals in the Seanad and outside the House. The Minister of State will also be aware that submissions were received by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, chaired by that dynamic Member of this House, Deputy Cassidy, who brings his own expertise to bear on these matters. We had an opportunity as members of that committee to hear the views not only of those interested professional bodies but also of a wider domain of people who will be affected by what might appear, at first reading, to be a very technical set of proposals which will regulate the accountancy profession.

The genesis of these proposals has already been referred to by the Minister of State and the Fine Gael spokesperson. They are the series of concerns relating back to the beef tribunal and, more importantly, from our jurisdiction perspective, the concerns outlined in the DIRT inquiry report, a parliamentary report on foot of concerns identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General which sought a stricter and more transparent regime of accountability by the auditing profession in particular. That is what is intended to be met by the proposal before us. It is of concern that those domestic pressures which inexorably led to the establishment of the review group on auditing were matched on the international stage by a series of international accounting scandals, notably, Enron, WorldCom, Global Crossing and Tyco International.

There is, not only in this jurisdiction but internationally, a fresh appraisal of the requirements of standards of decency and honesty within the accounting profession. Unfortunately every profession has been under that level of scrutiny in recent times. We have been required to introduce ethics legislation governing public service and politicians. Higher standards and higher levels of transparency are required right across public administration. There is no doubt that serious action is required to give effect to a transparent and fair system of accounting and auditing. It is now an absolute requirement that there be public trust in the professions we register to operate and guard normal commercial activity in the public interest. This legislation, is for all those reasons, to be welcomed but it will require careful consideration on Committee Stage.

In the course of my contribution, I will touch on a number of issues already referred to by Deputy Hogan. Like Deputy Hogan, I am a little at a loss because the Minister of State has indicated he intends amending a number of the issues of controversy following the debate in the Seanad but we do not know what they will be. Our points may, therefore, be moot because the Minster of State may have changed his mind on them. In view of this, it would have been helpful if he had indicated the content of the changes he envisages.

While the objective of rigid, enforceable and transparent standards is something I and the Labour Party strongly support, it must be achieved without incurring the cost of overly cumbersome regulation which would impact on the nature, type and volume of business being conducted in the State or impede the migration of new businesses into Ireland. Some may be surprised that a Labour Party spokesperson would express such views. However, we are pro enterprise and business. We want the highest standards to prevail, but we are not interested in creating bureaucracy for the sake of it, even for the sake of addressing a perceived weakness.

Deputy Hogan rightly expressed the view that rather than addressing each perceived weakness in the regulatory structures by creating new agencies, there is a case to be made for having an over-arching agency. When more than one agency is responsible for a defined area of regulation, it creates more paperwork, accounting procedures and bureaucracy while not necessarily creating more transparency. Rather than having one joined up process, issues often fall between cracks. While the Bill will not address this, it merits consideration by the Minister of State and his Department.

The establishment of a new supervisory authority, IAASA, is the most significant proposal in the Bill. It would provide for the structured oversight of the accountancy profession in Ireland, review of the financial statements of large companies and a new mechanism to improve corporate governance in the State. Members have had the benefit of submissions by various interested parties and those of us who will contribute to this debate have met a number of them. Therefore, we have had the opportunity to reflect on the Minister of State's proposals, weigh them against the submissions and develop our own ideas.

The Minister of State may be aware that I expressed a view on a model of regulation to the Oireachtas joint committee. I have concerns about the model presented in the Bill, which I accept is the developed model of the distinguished review group on auditing, chaired by Senator O'Toole, whose recommendations must be given serious consideration. The report of the review group and the Minister of State's proposals essentially call for a dual system of self-regulation with independent oversight and validated standards. That is a laudable model, but I am concerned that as a dual system, it might prove to be lengthy and costly in practice. Investigations carried out by the individual bodies could, as we have learned, take a considerable length of time and could be costly. Ultimately, they would be subject to the overview of IAASA, which could, under the terms of the legislation, overturn their verdicts and cause a new investigation. This may mean that a practitioner under investigation could be subject to double jeopardy. He or she could have argued and proven the case only to have it set aside in favour of a new inquiry. In that situation, the right of a person to go to court to vindicate natural justice cannot be precluded.

My original view on this aspect, which has not been wholly abandoned although it has been dented by some of the strong arguments made to me, was to favour IAASA taking over the disciplinary powers from the member bodies in the public interest. Under this model, complaints against accountants would be investigated directly by IAASA and a concept of fitness to practise would be applied, with certificates of fitness to practise issued not by the respective professional bodies but by IAASA. The Minister of State may be aware that as Minister for Health, I acquired some experience of a version of this model in relation to the medical profession. Before he consults recent cases dealt with by the fitness to practise sub-committee of the medical supervisory authority, I acknowledge that the model is not perfect. However, in essence, it is a single layered structure with recourse to the courts after only one mechanism. It could prove to be a more efficient, reliable and safer model. While the Minister of State appears wedded to the dual system set out in the legislation, I propose this model for consideration, although I accept it is unlikely to succeed.

I now turn to considering how the model set out in the legislation can be improved. The Minister of State referred to the absence of a definition of the word "accountant". As Minister for the Environment, I became aware of some of the difficulties implicit in having a statutory definition of a professional title. I and my officials in the Department of the Environment gave careful consideration to the registration of the title "architect" in the Department because many people term themselves architects even when they do not hold a professional qualification. This has long been a source of contention with the architects' profession. Some of these people do not term themselves architects but architectural advisers or an architectural firm. There is difficulty in nailing down specifically a professional title when people can hold themselves to be part of that profession.

The Minister of State's solution to this is to ask IAASA to provide a suitable definition. It is understandable he should take this option because it is easy to let the new supervisory authority undertake that burden. However, this is a fundamental weakness in the legislation. The Minister of State will have received a submission from the Institute of Chartered Accountants. Appendix 1 on page 35 contains a reasonable stab at a definition of "accountant" and I ask the Minister of State to examine it between now and Committee State to ascertain whether it can be incorporated in the legislation. Such a definition would greatly benefit the framing of the Bill. It does not need to be set in stone because it can be referred to again, if the authority determines that an amended definition would be more appropriate upon its establishment next year. The Minister of State should examine the definition in the submission in the context of this legislative measure.

High Court approval will be required in the dual system for fines imposed on members. According to the professional bodies, that is a significant hurdle and burden. Drafters of legislation are mindful of the separation of powers and are concerned not to give any body other than the courts themselves the authority to levy a fine. That is an understandable concern but they are overly cautious in this regard. Many bodies, including those representing the accounting profession, are capable of levying such fines. They have codes, to which members sign up voluntarily, and they accept the disciplinary procedures. It is not analogous to a court. It is possible to do this without trespassing on the separation of powers, which is the motivation for inserting the section. It provides that a High Court imprimatur will be required for the imposition of fines by the professional bodies.

I will table an amendment in this regard.

I am glad these issues will be addressed because we are at a loss to know how the Minister of State's thinking has evolved since the drafting of the legislation.

Following the consideration of complaints by the bodies concerned, they will be considered by the new authority, IAASA. This raises the issue of the composition of the board of the IAASA, referred to by Deputy Hogan. If one is evaluating the competence of a recognised professional, there must be significant input by people duly and properly experienced and qualified to make such an evaluation. The Minister of State proposed to amend the balance of representation of the board so that four of the 14 members would be accountants. The number of board members will increase from 13 to 14 and the number of accountants will increase from two to four. There is also a possibility that a fifth accountant could be appointed as chief executive. That is a significant improvement on the initial proposition given that four or possibly five of the 14 members could be accountants, which is much better than two out of 13. The majority of members should not be accountants but the Minister of State is close to a proper balance and we can tease this issue out on Committee Stage.

I am concerned about section 16(1), which provides for a catch-all ministerial power whereby he or she can amend the number of members as he or she chooses. I am always wary of a catch-all provision at the end of a proposal. A debate is held to get the balance right, submissions are made but, as is the wont of many Departments, a catch-all provision is lobbed in to provide that the Minister can make his or her mind up and if he or she wishes to amend the membership subsequently, he or she can do so through an executive order without referring to anybody.

Corporate governance reform is another major area that is addressed in the legislation through a number of significant proposals. The Minister of State indicated he will table amendments and, therefore, we do not know what is his current thinking on them. The first proposal relates to compliance statements. When this was addressed by Deputy Hogan, the Minister of State rejected the points he made. I do not know whether that was because he intends to amend the proposals or because Deputy Hogan misinterpreted the section. I presume the Minister of State has changes in the compliance statement requirement in mind that will make it less burdensome.

It has been changed.

I have received a number of over the top e-mails on this issue but they are indicative of a concern that this burden will have serious implications on a number of fronts. Under the proposal, company directors will be required to prepare and sign a compliance statement that the company has complied with "all relevant obligations." Deputy Hogan asked how far "relevant obligations" stretch. If a company is trading internationally, must it ensure, for example, that it complies with the air quality order of Guinea-Bisseau? How does one sign off on such a catch-all statement without hiring an international legal expert to track where one's company is doing business?

Companies will not have to do that.

I accept that and I presume the Minister of State will focus on domestic company and tax law. If the compliance statement were confined to domestic law, it would not cause a difficulty.

The scope of the statements, which will apply to all companies, except those eligible for audit exemption, has also caused concern. I would like the Minister of State to clarify what is involved when he responds. Voluntary companies operating in the arts sector often recruit distinguished business people to lend weight to their boards. The interaction of the business person with the arts company, in turn, often involves little more than attending performances or adding his or her name to the company's letterhead. It would be a significant burden on businessmen to take on compliance statements and they will not do so, which will result in a negative impact on businesses.

I am also concerned this might have an impact on emerging businesses, which are sometimes mentored by established business people. They will be discouraged from doing so, resulting in a negative impact on the potential of companies to expand in this jurisdiction. I would like the Minister of State to address that issue by giving assurances that business people will not be driven from signing up for nominal directorships of pro bono businesses involved in the arts sector. We should not put disincentives in the way of such companies. Similarly, we should continue to allow business people to mentor and support developing companies as they have been doing.

I would also like to mention the audit committees that are to be established for certain companies under this Bill. There is concern that the role of such committees is to be set out in statute law. The existence of audit committees has been discussed by Deputy Hogan. I do not have a difficulty with the requirement to establish such committees for designated appropriately sized companies. It is a good idea and I support it. A fair point was made in the submission from the professional organisations, however. The Bill defines the requirement for an audit committee and the structure of such a committee, but it has been argued that the notion of outlining the role of such a committee in statute law is going too far. The role of audit committees cannot be set in stone, because it will be an evolving role. There will be new practices. New best practice will come about. One needs the flexibility to change.

Will we include that in the amendment that has been mentioned?

Another amendment will be needed. It is very hard to deal with this issue on Second Stage.

We can have a "catch-all" amendment.

It is good that the Minister of State is indicating that he will deal with the flaws that are being mentioned. I welcome that.

It is very good.

Is the Minister of State indicating that the difficulty in changing the role of the audit committees will be dealt with in amendments on Committee Stage?

I refer to the provision to which the Deputy objected some time ago.

That is the "catch-all" provision. We have not yet reached the audit committee provision.

Is that what the Deputy is speaking about?

The Minister will do that as well. That is very good.

I did not say that.

The Minister of State did not say that.

Would the Deputy be in favour of it?

I am arguing that the role of the audit committees should not be set down in statute. The flexibility to change procedure in accordance with evolving best practice, without a requirement to return to the House to change the law, is needed. The Minister of State may wish to embrace this point, which was strongly made by the professional organisations, on Committee Stage. It makes eminent sense to me that such flexibility should exist. We should not enshrine in law something that makes it difficult to agree best practice, which is what is at stake. If one needs to change the law, one will have to compete for parliamentary time and space.

I am conscious of the amount of time I have remaining as it is difficult to deal with a very long Bill in such a short space of time. I endorse the point, without restating it, that the exemption limits for audit committees should be examined. Perhaps the Minister of State will reveal his thoughts in that regard at the conclusion of Second Stage or on Committee Stage.

The Blaney inquiry was a watershed for those of us who are interested in best practice in the company law area. I refer to people who believe that we have a regulated auditing and accounting profession that is in control of itself, is accountable and in respect of which best practice applies. The jury must be out in terms of the follow through. It is not good that some of the most respected auditing companies in this State can dismiss as a technical fault what was, to any fair-minded person, an extraordinarily strong criticism. There must be a visible accounting for that. Most of us were aghast that the criticism was dismissed in such a manner. The attitude of "that's that, next business please" cannot be allowed to prevail. Somebody must be held to account. Recognised failure that has been properly investigated, as well as duly noted and published, must have consequences.

I hope this Bill will provide a framework for the future. The professional organisations and the Minister of State should indicate the specific measures that are planned to ensure that the failures of the past, which caused us all great anxiety and concern, are dealt with. Those who are perceived to have acted improperly should also be dealt with.

I would like to share time with Deputies Finian McGrath and Eamon Ryan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

We all agree that this complex Bill is necessary. When we examine the behaviour of companies like Enron and WorldCom, we see how auditing services can be seriously abused. It is an incentive to reflect on the idea of self-regulation. I commend all involved on the fact that this initiative commenced before the scandals broke. It is unfortunate that much of this work was delayed because big business was threatening not to come to Ireland if the new regulations were introduced. I appreciate the difficulty of balancing the need for effective regulation with the need to ensure that companies continue to come here to create the jobs we need.

This Bill will establish the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority. The members of the authority will be drawn mainly from financial institutions. The competencies of the supervisory authority will be primarily financial. I would like the Minister of State to clarify whether organisations other than financial institutions will be required to make declarations. Some speakers have already alluded to this issue. What is the status of the law in respect of activities such as employment, equality, drug control, health and safety, waste recycling and insurance? Such areas affect the financial statement in terms of cost provisions and the unsecured liabilities of the company. If a company does not spend money on these areas, it will have an unmet liability. Will the supervisory authority deal with such issues? Does anything other than financial statements fall within the remit of this Bill? Guidelines or good practice can also be seen as obligations. The focus of the Bill is on obligations, but are obligations other than financial obligations included? I am trying to establish the responsibilities of the directors who must sign off on this.

What is the position in respect of companies that operate in Ireland but which are based outside this jurisdiction? Are they subject to the provisions of this Bill? If, as I suspect, they are not covered by the Bill, are they totally exempt from it? Will this legislation apply to them in any way, in terms of their responsibilities to their employees in this jurisdiction? I hope such companies will not be able to rout this legislation. The Bill should not encourage companies to set up in the North or Britain to avoid the terms of the new regulation. I have highlighted the need to strike a balance between corporate governance and attracting industry. Nobody will dispute the fact that corporate governance has changed to a phenomenal extent in recent years, particularly when one examines the power of companies in light of the concept of globalisation. Many states could be financially overrun by the power of these strong companies.

I return to the issue of declarations versus competencies – are directors expected to know every aspect of the company down to how the floor sweeper cleans the floor? The Minister of State is indicating "No". I look forward to clarification on that matter as it is at the heart of the legislation.

I am concerned at the overly authoritarian approach of the Bill. Given the penalties involved, many people would think twice before taking on directorships. At one time directorships connoted a handy time. In many cases, not much more was involved than signing off annually on the accounts, invariably with either little or no responsibility. From the example cited earlier it is evident that bigger companies managed to completely flout not only their legal obligations but also their obligations to their employees and many others as well. I look forward to Committee Stage so that some of these issues can be examined in more detail. I have no doubt that the definitions will create great excitement and that we will have great sport.

The concept of self-regulation is welcome, whether regarding the Medical Council, for example, or in terms of the health industry or the legal profession. Regulation of the auditing sector is long overdue and, to that extent, I warmly welcome the Bill – subject to some amendment.

I have some concerns in regard to the €25 million threshold, given the rate at which prices seem to go up in the retail sector – a €20 note is gone in an instant. In a short time, perhaps all companies will come within that remit. In his concluding remarks, I look forward to the Minister's response to some of the issues I have raised.

I welcome the opportunity to put on record my views in regard to the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003. In recent years we have seen financial matters coming to the fore and it is essential that we have an open and frank debate on the Bill. Public confidence has been shattered by recent events. This debate gives us the opportunity to discuss such matters. Ireland was once known as the island of saints and scholars; today it is better known as the land of scandals and tribunals. The world of politics, banking, the church, business, medicine, the legal profession and the Garda have all suffered from an erosion of public confidence in the wake of scandals. We have undergone major socio-economic and political change over the past decade which has had a profound impact on our value system. The Bill is part of that debate, which has to be about change and reform. It must also be about listening which, as legislators, we are obliged to do.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland consulted its members, carried out widespread research and sent in detailed proposals. As parliamentarians we have a duty to listen to them. I thank the institute, particularly its communications director, Ronán O'Brien, for its excellent and detailed submissions on the legislation.

Part 2 deals with the supervisory authority. This part contains the various provisions required to establish the supervisory authority as a company limited by guarantee, setting out its members, objects, functions, powers, reporting and funding arrangements as well as its more specific functions in relation to the prescribed accountancy bodies. It also gives the supervisory authority the power to delegate any of its functions to sub-committees or staff of the supervisory authority and provides for confidentiality of information obtained by the supervisory authority.

Section 4 defines terms used in this part of the Bill. Most of these are self-explanatory. A point of clarification worth making is that the definition of "prescribed accountancy body" encompasses all accountancy bodies recognised for the purposes of the Companies Acts to reflect the scope of the supervision provided for in the Bill, which extends, alike, to auditor and non-auditor members of these recognised bodies. The Minister also has the power under section 46(1) to prescribe other bodies of accountants for the purposes of the Act.

Section 11 provides for the appointment by the Minister of directors of the supervisory authority. There is provision for 13 directors, 12 appointed by the Minister, based on nominations from each of the eight bodies referred to in section 6(2)(a) to (h), with two nominations from the prescribed accountancy bodies, and a further two by the Minister. The chief executive will be an ex officio director. Not more than two directors appointed by the Minister can be members of prescribed accountancy bodies.

Members of the supervisory authority are not permitted to instruct directors in the discharge of their duties as directors. The term of office of a director will be set by the Minister as being for a minimum of three years and a maximum of five years. The Minister shall, if he or she so wishes, re-appoint directors to the board. The section also provides for the resignation and removal of directors from the board.

It is essential that we take on board the views of the institute. On 12 October 2003, the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland, ICAI, called for the two distinct elements of the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill before Dáil Éireann to be de-coupled and proceeded with separately and on a different basis. The Bill establishes the new supervisory authority for auditors and accountants, the IAASA, on a statutory basis and amends company law in respect of corporate governance issues. The deputy president of the ICAI, Terence O'Rourke, said he believed the Government should proceed immediately to establish the supervisory authority but revisit the corporate governance issues contained in the Bill. The IAASA has been in preparation for some time and already meets on an interim basis. He suggested that it needs to be established on a statutory basis as soon as possible to allow it and the professional bodies to begin their new working relationship.

The areas that deal with corporate governance have been the subject of considerable controversy in recent months. In particular, the issue of the compliance statements to be made by directors has given rise to concern within the business com munity. A number of important developments have occurred in this area even since the Bill was debated in the Seanad. The ICAI has always argued that corporate governance issues should not be addressed in primary legislation except at a very high level. Legislation is simply too inflexible to deal with the pace of development in this area and opens up the prospect of an ongoing need for legislative amendment.

Significantly both the UK and the European Union recommended the code approach. The latest version of the UK code was published in July. It was updated to take account of global accounting difficulties which is binding on Irish companies quoted on our stock market. The European Union issued its communication paper on the subject in the same month.

The ICAI is strongly of the view that this is the way we should proceed. The review group on auditing, the RGA, made similar recommendations to those contained in the Bill. As a result of Enron and other scandals, other jurisdictions have adopted practices that will allow them to react to events more easily than the approach to which the Government is committed. In fairness to the Government, those involved have said that the RGA consulted widely but events have overtaken that approach. It would be inappropriate not to respond in a manner similar to our European colleagues and competitors. The measures that are advocated in the Bill are important but they will be equally effective if incorporated in a code, while still allowing the flexibility to amend them in line with global developments. It is more important to get the overall framework correct. The views of the deputy president should be listened to by the Government.

I have some recommendations regarding the legislation. I recommend that the scope of the supervisory authority be applied to all accountants, which will necessitate a definition of "accountant". The proposed changes to section 187 of the 1990 Act should be revised in order that it is compliant with the requirements of the eighth directive.

The prescribed accountancy bodies, the designated bodies and the Minister should nominate persons with the necessary competence, experience and professionalism to fulfil the objectives and functions of the board. The nominating bodies should not be precluded from nominating a person who is a member of a prescribed accountancy body, subject to a maximum of 40% of the membership of the board being members of a prescribed accountancy body. No member of the board should be an employee of any Department or Government agency, any prescribed accountancy body or any designated body.

The Freedom of Information Act should not apply to confidential information which comes before or into the possession of the supervisory authority. Information should only be disclosed as empowered under section 30. In the event that the supervisory authority delegates any of its functions to a third party, the relevant pro fessional body, the member, or the company should be informed of the person or persons who will carry out the functions of the supervisory authority under sections 23 to 26, inclusive, before that person is appointed to assess if any conflicts of interest exist.

I hope the Minister will take these views on board. More important, he should listen very carefully to the detailed ideas of those on the front line. We need major reform of accountancy and business practices and if we are serious about it, we must listen very carefully to and take on board the views of the people who are working between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., as well as those who work outside these hours, all of whom make a massive contribution to the development of our economy.

Furthermore, we must ensure there is transparency and honesty in all business. We are moving towards such a society and things have changed. Despite many of the scandals, the reality is that the vast majority are trying to do their best in their jobs for their companies and their country. I encourage people to continue along this track. If people in business want to serve the community, they must do their best to develop the economy and, above all, treat their own staff well, keep their businesses in order and pay their taxes. Then they can make a major contribution to society in a broader way.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for affording me the opportunity to address this legislation and I hope the Government will take on board some of my ideas.

I, too, welcome the Bill. I welcome the Minister of State's speech and the other interesting speeches we heard. They are a good example of the good work done by the Houses. We note the good work the Seanad has done and I hope the Minister will take on board some of the comments of my colleagues who have already spoken. There is not much contention regarding the purpose of the Bill. The interest will be in the amendments the Minister of State is willing to accept. He has shown himself to be flexible in his approach.

I am a director of two very small companies. My dealings with chartered accountants and auditors have been quite positive, and this colours everything I have to say. I regard highly the work of the accountant connected with my two businesses and the relationship I have had with that person over the years. It has been hugely beneficial to business. We need to be careful when amending legislation that affects the auditing profession that we do not abolish some of the good things that exist or the positive role the accountancy profession can have within businesses. At the same time, we must ensure they are properly regulated.

In spite of my positive experience with my accountant, I, like many others, was shocked in recent years to hear some of the disclosures about what took place particularly in some of the larger accountancy firms and larger public, private and limited companies. Maybe the culture that existed was associated with a former Taoiseach, who was an accountant in the past. He possibly embodies in part the culture that existed 20 or 30 years ago, namely, the notion that it was acceptable to bend the rules and the accounts. When we saw how this culture operated in respect of the Dunnes Stores case, it seemed that, in certain circumstances, the auditor in question was providing a cheque book on the same basis that Ray Burke had his "walking around" money, which was available for various reasons and for dispensing to different directors. This activity was quite shocking and, based on my experience with my sole-practice auditor, I could not have imagined it was taking place in the bigger firms.

I completed a business degree in university and, at the time, one achieved Brahmin status if one received a call to work in Arthur Andersen. I am not impugning anyone who was working in the company but it was noticeable to those who came through the same education system that this company, which was supposedly the very best and the highest of the high, was engaged in some very questionable practices. Outside Ireland – I am not particularly aware of its business in Ireland – it seemed that those at the very highest level were involved in such practices. Therefore, it is important that this Bill be enacted. There is a need for regulation and it is difficult to understand how accountancy bodies could have sanctioned companies engaged in malpractice. It is good that the accountancy bodies are welcoming the introduction of the supervisory body.

I very much share the sentiments of Deputy Hogan, namely, that we do not, in trying to address the aforementioned issue, set up a new bureaucratic structure in the State and a new level of regulatory authority with a quango whereby we would have very extensive and expensive systems of administration and regulation.

While shadowing the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I have seen very little legislation pertaining to enterprise and a considerable amount related to superannuation, administration, board selection and hugely expensive and cumbersome State procedures. In promoting enterprise, we should be careful that we do not just provide regulation and administration and that we do not fail to free people up. The Minister should be flexible regarding the new authority. We have a number of regulators in the telecoms and broadcasting areas, with considerable staff and very significant budgets. They are very interventionist, which is necessary in many cases, especially in respect of telecoms and electricity providers. The new regulatory body will not be involved at that level. It is a stand-back authority, which, on occasion, will have to provide an independent and legislative framework for investigating certain issues. It should not be seen as a full-time bureaucracy that has to carry out work to justify its existence.

On the issue of membership, the Minister should consider the academic institutions as a source of very knowledgeable people in the area of accountancy standards and of people who can have a good feed-in role. When I made one of my submissions, the professions stated that many accountants should be on the board. I query this. The accountants certainly need representation but there are other experienced people who may be appointed on a part-time basis, in the same way that we appoint people to the Arts Council. We do not necessarily need full-time people to make up the body of the authority. The authority needs to be knowledgeable and wise, but knowledge and wisdom can be brought in from other disciplines on an as-needed basis.

The legal system, another significant financial burden and restriction on enterprise and business, frequently – I should choose my words carefully – saps the potential for enterprise activity. It imposes massive costs and causes serious difficulties and delays. I am particularly concerned about the provision in section 35 that a decision of a disciplinary committee will automatically go before the High Court. I hope this will be changed, as the Minister of State appears to have indicated, because automatic recourse to the High Court, given the current delays in taking a case before it and the costs associated with doing so, is madness.

I hope, when reading through the Bill, the Minister will decide to remove the legal profession from the equation because it involves money and wasted time. We have too much recourse to the law. The Bill establishes another tier of recourse, namely, the High Court, which has another tier above it, meaning we have a three tiered structure. We should remove the role of lawyers to the greatest degree possible. I welcome the Minister of State's apparent indication that he will take certain measures in this regard.

I have received representations on the need for disclosure by directors, the other main issue of contention, which was also raised by a number of speakers. I am concerned about the obligations imposed on directors, particularly with regard to smaller firms, and agree with Deputy Hogan that we need to increase the level of turnover at which auditor compliance is required. Having read closely the wording of this provision, it is difficult to work out the precise requirements in this regard. The Minister of State put it well when he stated that people are perhaps over-reacting.

As a director of a small company, I know precisely what will happen if we enact the legislation as it stands. When my annual audited accounts are returned to me, I will sign the various forms and on reaching the page on auditor compliance I will ask my accountant what I am signing. While I will sign when he informs me I am undertaking that the company is compliant, I will not really understand to what the amendment to section 205F of the 1999 Act relates. Directors may be deterred if they become aware that signing may be an offence. It is necessary, however, to take action to ensure that company directors police to a degree their company's operations.

This brings me to my earlier point that we should not set up bureaucratic, administrative structures. I accept the reason for legislating to make directors act as a kind of police force in their companies as it means that a bureaucratic system in which the supervisory authority has to investigate every company will not be necessary.

We will clarify the matter on Committee Stage.

This issue requires clarification. Amending the section to clarify and narrow down the issue of compliance could satisfy some of the concerns, many of which I do not share. Some people who approached me were concerned the provision may frighten off overseas investors. This is not credible because we deal with large companies, many of which operate in markets in which there are serious concerns about corporate governance. Foreign investors prefer to invest in countries with a proper regulatory and business framework in which the rule of law applies and one does not have to bribe anyone or bend the law. A straight environment is a good one for business.

We need to clarify what is meant by the title of accountant. The Bill refers to auditors throughout. The title of accountant is often confused with bookkeeper by the small businessmen I represent, while accountants often confuse bookkeeper with auditor. The Minister of State said he would allow the supervisory authority to investigate and analyse this issue. My concern is that we may discover that legislation is required to define what is an accountant. We should avail of the opportunity to do this now, which may require the Minister to seek legal advice. Will legislation be required or could we achieve this by ministerial order or by order of the supervisory authority? If legal opinion is that legislation is not required, I would be happy to leave the matter to the supervisory authority to address. It would be good practice to do everything at once. I welcome the Bill and look forward to debating it further on Committee Stage.

I am delighted to have an opportunity to contribute on the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003. The genesis of this legislation was the DIRT inquiry, chaired by the late Deputy Jim Mitchell, which seems to have many tails. I have come to the House from a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts which is considering look-back audits and the behaviour of certain banks. The DIRT inquiry, of which I was fortunate to be a member, raised many questions, not least of which was the issue addressed by this legislation. One of the main questions arising from the inquiry related to the independence of a group of auditing firms which appear to have established an oligopoly with regard to the banking business. Not only were members of this group auditing the banks, but they were also doing consultancy work through other arms of their businesses. The question needed to be addressed, which is what the Bill does.

One of the most important outcomes of the inquiry was the questions it raised about corporate governance among banks and public companies in general, the independence and objectivity of audit committees and the competence and ability of their membership. I am glad these issues are comprehensively addressed in the Bill. The question of self-regulation – who will judge the judges or guard the guardians – also arose at the inquiry. It is good the Bill will put the question of regulation and discipline by the accountancy bodies on a statutory basis.

At the time the question of compliance arose, I suggested to the chief executive of one of the banks that those in his position should have to sign a statement to the effect that their bank or company had complied with tax law. The suggestion was not met with great enthusiasm, which is an issue to which I will return. There is a responsibility and onus, not on the directors of companies, but on whomever is the chief operating officer. They are at the coalface doing the work and should, therefore, take responsibility for ensuring, in as far as can be reasonably expected, that their company operates within the law in all respects.

I congratulate Senator O'Toole on the great work he did on the review he undertook of auditing and auditing bodies at the request of the Tánaiste. He invested a huge amount of time and effort in the review and demonstrated the work Members of the Oireachtas are prepared to put into public service over and above the call of duty. He deserves to be congratulated on this and on the report he and the other members of the review group compiled. Many of its recommendations are encapsulated in the legislation. It is necessary to instil confidence in the public that the operation of companies is the best in terms of regulation, systems of governance and the standards that are adopted.

I have been considering whether the concept of auditing companies could be extended, now that the opportunity is available, although it might be beyond the scope of this Department. Yesterday, the Hanly report was published. The objective of the report is to improve patient care, to have a consultant-provided rather than a consultant-led hospital service, to improve medical education and training and to improve access to services regionally so that each region will have additional suitable services which are not available to them at present. The number of junior hospital doctors is to be reduced from 4,000 to 2,200 while the number of consultants is to increase from 1,700 to 3,600. Various major hospitals are to be put in place in each region in addition to the smaller hospitals. Perhaps there should be a medical auditor who would examine whether this happens in each area. The auditor could ascertain if patient care has been put in place in a measurable way with regard to the number of consultants. This could also apply to the environment with the appointment of environmental auditors to ensure that the objectives set out by Departments are measured and reported on to ensure they come up to the required standards.

In many cases the reports received by the Dáil are quantitative. They deal with the pounds, not with quality. The amount of outputs is not measured in the same way as the pounds are measured. There should be some way to measure the quality of the outputs. Perhaps there is a way the audit concept can be broadened, not necessarily in this Bill but in other ways, to ensure that all the services we expect from Government are put in place, that programmes are measured and reported on and that if there are deficiencies, these will be reported in order that we can try to improve them. It is not a stick with which to beat people but a carrot to improve the services. One of the issues that has arisen in the major hospitals is the question of clinical directorates. I am vice-chairman of St. James's Hospital, in which clinical directorates operate. We would be amenable to having an audit of the services of the various directorates. It is something that needs to be developed.

The word "audit" is derived from the Latin for the verb "to hear". It is not just a question of pound notes, accounting and adding. It is hearing, listening and reporting. It has come to mean money but that should not be its primary purpose.

A catalyst for pushing this legislation forward was what happened recently on the international scene with Enron and WorldCom and with Elan in this country. The dotcom industry in 1999 had put values on intangible assets which were astronomical and out of all proportion to their eventual value. That shook the business community and commerce generally and had a huge effect on the stock market. It also affected pensions. Many people who were about to retire were concerned and worried about the pensions on which they would have to live. This Bill is being introduced to ensure, in so far as possible, that the same thing will not occur in future.

The Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority or IAASA will have oversight of accountancy bodies and will examine annual accounts of relevant undertakings, which are public limited companies, large private companies, unlimited companies and partnerships, all of whose members have effective limited liability. I do not know how it will do that. The auditors will perform their audit and, with standards having been improved and made more rigorous, the examination by auditors has changed dramatically and is changing each year. The value of another body examining accounts is questionable. That body should be examining the stan dards and the work practices of the institute or recognised body of which those auditors are members to ensure that from the bottom-up, not top-down, things are operating properly.

The IAASA will also be responsible for recognition of a body of accountants for the purposes of its members being able to act as auditors. Members will be aware that there was great disagreement in the early 1990s as to whether a body was sufficiently competent and should be given recognition. The body concerned was the Institute of Incorporated Public Accountants. I am glad that this body will now have to apply, after the commencement of this Bill, for recognition. In the meantime, all members of that body will have the right and ability to audit public companies. This will not do anything to the institute or delete or negative its work but it will help to improve the standards of all institutes of all public accountants in the country. There are a number of bodies, institutes and groupings of public accountants and anything that helps to improve their educational, accounting and auditing standards is worthwhile and welcome. I hope all the bodies will improve their standards.

I have a vested interest in this issue, which I probably should have mentioned earlier. I have an individual authorisation from the Minister. Each individual authorisation – I believe there are now less than 100 such authorisations – will be, within three years, subject to the regulation of a recognised body of accountants. I am subject to the regulation of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland at present. It is good that all individual authorisations, which are probably less welcome than the recognition of the Institute of Incorporated Public Accountants, are now being dealt with and that everybody who operates as a public accountant will be regulated in Ireland by a body which will be responsible to IAASA.

The audit committee has to be satisfied that where remuneration for non-audit work exceeds the aggregate of audit and audit-related work, the independence of the auditor is not affected. The Minister told me that contributors today had discussed the question of the audit committee and whether it would be right and proper for all the relevant companies. For a company with a turnover of €25.5 million, having to put in place a fully fledged audit committee empowered and able to do all the things expected in good corporate governance and under the regulations set out in this law, will be very difficult. Being a member of an audit committee is an onerous and very responsible task. It takes a great deal of time and effort to ensure that proper corporate governance is being adopted by the company and to satisfy oneself as a member of an audit committee that one is prepared to stand over the accounts, the auditor's independence and everything else. There is a question about the level. The sum of €25 million was very large ten years ago, but not today. Many companies in Ireland with that kind of turnover have the competence and ability to make money, produce efficiently and operate legitimately and ethically, but there is a question over having to have an audit committee at that low level. For bigger companies, it is certainly an absolute necessity.

The IAASA should review procedures in place and insist on changes, where deemed necessary, in disciplinary procedures. It should not be an appeal body for individual cases. I agree that there is the potential for double jeopardy. The IAASA should set out and agree with the accountancy bodies the broad parameters of the disciplinary procedures. Those, along with the constitution, would form the basis of a judicial review for any disaffected person. However, I do not believe that one should be tried twice or that the chance of being tried twice should exist, so long as the procedures are in place. The whole reason for the IAASA is oversight. It should not be for the nitty-gritty at the coalface. It should ensure that accountancy bodies do their work, particularly regarding disciplinary matters. It would be wrong for the IAASA to examine disciplinary procedures regarding problems with individual accountants.

Several Deputies mentioned the compliance statement. I heard the Minister say that changes are coming through on Committee Stage. If someone asked me if I had operated as a Deputy in compliance with company law, tax law, environmental law, competition law and everything else in the book, I would not know, since there are always small items. The devil is in the detail, as a former Taoiseach used to say. Stating categorically that one has fully complied with all the laws of the land, as is our duty, means that somebody could pick one up on it. The directors of many private companies are the spouse, partner, son, daughter or friend of the owner, and the one person who operates that company is the chief executive officer. That is the person who knows whether things have been done right, and that person should be primarily responsible for any compliance statement.

There is a question about whether a company operating in Ireland from another EU country has an unfair advantage, since it would not have to sign a compliance statement. Should non-national companies which operate here also have to produce one? Even though they do not have to produce audited statements or register with the Companies Registration Office, should they not have to sign a compliance statement, at least to say that they are operating on a level playing field with companies in Ireland?

I will comment on the question of whether companies should be subject to audit at all and the level at which that should happen. The issue of compliance is probably connected with that of SMEs and big companies, but the level at which they should be audited should be at least €2 million. However, it is not necessarily the case that only that should be taken into consideration. Today I saw the van of a pork sausage and bacon wholesaler. The owner could easily have a turnover of €2 million, yet there would be only one employee. Is it necessary that he or she be audited, when another company with a turnover of less than €1 million that may have ten employees operating in the business of cash services, for example, a security services company, need not have an audit? The factor should not only be the level of money. It should also include the number of employees or people working for the company indirectly through subcontractors. Both those should be taken into account in deciding whether a company should have to undergo an audit each year.

I am delighted that this legislation is coming forward. It will improve and enhance corporate governance in Ireland and make legitimate business fairer, more just and more equitable. I commend it to the House.

The Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003 is the most significant legislation affecting corporate governance for many years. Broadly speaking, Fine Gael welcomes the Bill's publication and supports the spirit and intent of the legislation. It imposes several new requirements on Irish companies and their auditors and has major ramifications for the directors of businesses at all levels.

However, Fine Gael has concerns about the extent of some of the new requirements. While no one would argue that business should not comply with the law of the land, certain aspects of the Bill are draconian. They will impose a significant compliance cost on companies and make Ireland less attractive as a location to set up a business. Though we all agree that it is important to have corporate governance arrangements of the highest quality in place, in this case we have gone a step too far. The Government is imposing regulatory overload on small business. The proposals are, in many ways, very radical and go further than similar legislation in the US or recent proposals from the European Union. Ireland is fast becoming the most regulated economy in the world.

The Bill's provisions will impact on everyone, from the small publican with an empty, smoke-free pub to the large, publicly quoted companies. Fine Gael has concerns that the imposition of the new regulations will impact negatively on the cost of doing business, particularly for small businesses. It will stifle new business growth and lead to an exodus of non-executive directors from the corporate landscape. Some of the Bill's features, such as the director's compliance statement, are unique in the European Union. No other member state has anything like it. The unfortunate result is that prospective inward investors may well go to another country that takes a more pro-business approach. Ireland will be seen as an unattractive place in which to do business. The high-technology group ICT Ireland has said that the proposed legislation on company directors is so serious that it will make Ireland one of the most regulated countries in the world. More importantly, the group also claims that it will impose significant additional costs on indigenous companies and seriously undermine Ireland's attractiveness as a location for foreign direct investment.

Two specific problems have been identified:

the obligation on all company directors to prepare an annual compliance statement and the requirement to establish audit companies in PLCs. The IDA has similar concerns about other aspects of the Bill, arguing that if amendments are not accepted the consequences will be frightening. The IDA's big clients are incorporated outside the country but say they are worried that the message being sent out is that Ireland is no longer a friendly place in which to do business, adding that the additional cost of firms being audited in Ireland was of great concern to them. The implications for non-profit-making companies and voluntary agencies will also be enormous.

There is a balance to be struck between effective regulation and bureaucratic red tape. Unfortunately, while the Bill has many worthy provisions, it does not have that balance right. Fine Gael will introduce a number of amendments which will continue to protect the integrity of the Bill without imposing undue burdens on business. The new requirement for a director's compliance statement is our primary area of concern.

The Bill requires the directors of a company, other than those which are ineligible for the audit exemptions, to make positive statements regarding the company's compliance with company law as well as taxation law and other relevant statutory requirements. Those will cover issues related to employment, the environment, health and safety and many other regulations. Failure by the directors to prepare a compliance statement or to include a statement in the annual report will be an offence. A company's auditors will be required to review the directors' compliance statements and the review will be incorporated in the auditors' report on the financial statements. If the auditors form the opinion that the directors have failed to comply with their obligations under the Bill, the matter will have to be reported to the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

This is a very onerous burden of personal responsibility for directors. It will be difficult, if not impractical, for directors to state that a company complies with all relevant statutory requirements. It will be extremely difficult in such circumstances to attract non-executive directors to boards, and this at a time when it is already difficult to attract people to boards. Everyone agrees that good non-executive directors are of tremendous benefit to any company.

The European Commission's proposals to modernise company law and enhance corporate government in the EU made no mention of any similar proposal. In fact, this is not required in any other EU country. The only other country to introduce similar provisions is the United States and the provisions in the US are nowhere near as wide-ranging, as they only apply to companies quoted on the stock exchange and statements only need to be signed by the chief executive and the chief financial officer.

It is predicted that these onerous requirements will lead to a loss of competitiveness, particularly relative to the United Kingdom, in attracting overseas investment to Ireland. There is no equivalent legislation in the UK and American companies in particular are likely to choose locations such as Scotland and Northern Ireland in preference to Ireland because of these excessive compliance burdens. These proposals will give rise to serious compliance costs and the personal responsibilities will very likely lead directors to seek extensive legal advice and other due diligence before making a public statement on their annual reports. ISME estimates there will be an increase of 40% in audit fees alone, together with substantial costs involved in extra administration and owner/manager times. It also claims that the provisions will have a negative impact on the competitiveness of many companies which are under severe pressure due to Ireland's already high cost environment.

At present it is proposed that the provisions will apply in Ireland to all public companies, companies with more than 50 members, and to private companies which are not eligible for audit exemptions, companies with a turnover in excess of €317,000. This threshold is ridiculously low and ensures that the vast majority of companies will require directors' compliance statements. It will also apply to other entities, such as charitable companies and management companies for apartment blocks, as the number of shareholders may exceed 50.

Ideally, these draconian provisions should be removed and Fine Gael recommends replacing them with a report stating that the company has processes in place to address its risk management and compliance responsibilities. If these draconian, anti-competitive provisions remain on our Statute Book, then at the least the turnover threshold for the audit exemption should be raised significantly. Fine Gael recommends a threshold of €3 million, as the current Irish level is significantly below those adopted by our fellow EU states. The EU allows countries to set an audit threshold of up to €7.3 million. The threshold in the Netherlands is €7 million and it is €6.8 million in Germany. The current exemption for UK companies is €1.27 million and it is proposed to increase this to almost €5 million, specifically to benefit smaller companies in that jurisdiction.

Once again we are out of step with the rest of Europe. Furthermore, the threshold should be set by order rather than through constant changes in legislation, The implications of these exemption limits mean SMEs across Europe have less compliance costs than Irish companies, adding to their competitive advantage. In a recent survey conducted among members of the Institute of Certified Public Accountants in Ireland, an overwhelming 97% of respondents felt that the threshold should be raised substantially. There should also be exemptions for charitable companies and certain management companies.

The Bill introduces a requirement for an audit committee for all PLCs and large companies. While this may be reasonable for PLCs and other public interest companies, we argue that it is not necessary for private companies. One of the reasons that many companies stay private is that they do not want third parties having access to privileged information. Again Ireland is out of step with the rest of Europe in requiring every company incorporated as a PLC to have its own audit committee, even if it is a wholly owned subsidiary of another parent company. Many Irish companies have quite a large number of PLCs as subsidiaries and each company must now have its own separate audit committee.

This Bill seeks to increase the cost and complexity of doing business in Ireland and goes far beyond the EU strategy on the regulation of corporate governance. While it is generally accepted that the principles regarding audit committees may be enshrined in law, the detailed rules on the functions of such committees are more approximately dealt with in a code since it is easier to change, and so can react more rapidly and effectively to the environment in which business operates. One would have expected a requirement for at least some of the members of the committee to have substantial financial expertise.

The Bill proposes to establish the new supervisory authority, the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority, IAASA, whose principal function is to supervise how the accountancy bodies regulate and monitor their members. Fine Gael broadly supports the setting up of this authority, but has some reservations about its implementation from a practical point of view. This new authority has 12 members, only two of whom are from the accounting bodies. The function of the authority would require an in-depth knowledge of the workings of the profession and of company legislation. It is not clear who will conduct the review of companies. If it is to be IAASA, some of the members may not have the required expertise to inspect accounts and pass a comment on them. There should be a greater number of accountants on the board. Most boards, such An Bord Altranais, contain a significant number of professionals from that field. The accountancy and auditing professions consider it would be appropriate to review this section and increase their representation on the board. It is unusual for a profession to be so underrepresented on its own supervisory body.

Fine Gael also recommends that we follow the UK example and establish a high level panel that would have the experience to do the job on behalf of the IAASA. While we all want effective corporate governance, this Bill seeks to impose excessive costs and responsibilities on companies and their directors, which go further than seems necessary by reference to international norms. There is a proper balance between proper and effective regulation and unnecessary burdens on business. Unfortunately, this Bill has not got that balance right.

The Government is intent on Ireland being the most regulated state in the European Union. This anti-business approach will slow down inward investment. It is likely to stifle entrepreneurship, to discourage our own people from setting up businesses and it will also make it more difficult to attract non-executive directors to many boards. This legislation, in its current format, is all the more surprising because it has been introduced by the Minister's Department. Deputy Harney is a member of the Progressive Democrats and constantly lectures us on how keeping the economy competitive is the central plank of this Government's economic policy.

The unnecessary excesses in this Bill will add substantially to business costs. More importantly, the red tape and excessive bureaucratic elements of this Bill will discourage expansion of existing companies and the setting up of new ones. Many of these provisions would be totally at odds with at least the proclaimed policy of the Progressive Democrats, a sort of laissez-faire attitude towards business, which would normally create the right environment and the private sector would do the rest. However, perhaps we should not be that surprised, when one considers the amount of stealth taxes the Government has imposed on business in terms of the massive increases in rates, the development charges and planning charges because it has utterly failed to deal with the proper funding of local government. More importantly, and potentially the most serious of all, will be the new carbon tax, which will affect our competitiveness as a nation. This tax does not need to be as harsh as it will be, and it would not be had the Government not totally mismanaged the renewable energy sector over the past number of years. It is too late to rectify the problems created by stealth taxes, but the Minister can rectify the problems with this Bill by accepting Fine Gael amendments, which would eliminate the draconian anti-competitive provisions, while not interfering with the main objectives of the Bill, which my party welcomes.

I welcome the Second Stage debate on this Bill. I wish to make a number of comments on this general area and on the Bill. I am a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland and have a keen interest in this area. I was contacted by a number of practitioners in the field during the summer months regarding concerns they had in respect of the Bill, as originally published, which I duly passed on to the Department for consideration. Their concerns can be broken into two issues. One is the threshold that will be set requiring a company to carry out a statutory audit and the other is the level at which companies and directors will have to sign, and express an opinion on, an auditor's statutory statement. These are related but separate issues.

The issue of the limit that will be set requiring the carrying out of a statutory audit applies only to companies. If a company wants to obtain the benefits of limited liability, responsibilities go with that. If a person, be it a shopkeeper or a small business person, continues to operate as a sole trader, notwithstanding a high level of liability, he or she will not have to carry out a statutory audit. It is up to such individuals as to how they organise themselves, taking into account all the relevant factors.

Another issue raised with me during the summer, which the Minister might address on Committee Stage, is the matter of unlimited companies. I am not sure if they are adequately dealt with in the legislation. A person operating an unlimited company does not have the protection of limited liability. Such a person could be in the worst of all worlds, he or she would have unlimited liability and may be caught for a statutory audit. While there are a limited number of unlimited companies, that issue should be examined and clarified as this legislation passes through the Dáil.

The Minister has yet to set a figure at which a company will be required to carry out a statutory audit – he will probably announce that on Report Stage. This is a different decision. In an ideal world such a figure should not be based only on the turnover of a company but on its size. That may prove difficult from a practical point of view, but it would be the best possible solution. For example, if the proprietor of a shop operating as a company has a turnover of €500,000 and a gross margin of 10%, he or she would have only €50,000 to run the business, pay the overheads and, hopefully, obtain a salary. That would be a tiny operation, even though it would have a turnover of €500,000. All any company has is its gross margin. In the retail trade where margins are tight, one can have a high turnover but limited scope to do business. A Fine Gael speaker mentioned that the threshold that should be set requiring a company to carry out an audit should be €3 million.

In some cases a company with a turnover of less than €3 million could have more than 50 employees, depending on the nature of its business. It will be very difficult to strike a balance, but I hope the figure will be raised to €1 million because otherwise there will be an enormous burden on very small operations, in effect sole traders operating through limited companies, and perhaps employing only themselves and another family member. I do not want to see an undue burden placed on such small companies. I ask that the figure be pitched close to the €1 million level.

There is a strong new provision in section 43 dealing with compliance statements which directors are required to sign, after which the auditors are expected to sign an audit report on that compliance statement. The level of turnover figure to attract an audit should be totally different. A figure of perhaps €1 million should have to be reached to require a statutory audit, but a direc tor compliance statement should not apply at that low level of activity. Some companies involving that turnover are very small. I suggest that a turnover figure in the region of €2 million or €3 million would be more appropriate for the mandatory requirement for a compliance statement. Such a figure should be looked at in the context of the filing limits which companies currently operate in dealing with the Companies Office. To debate the audit figure and the compliance figure together is wrong and suggests that one compromise figure would be correct. They are two separate issues requiring substantially different levels at which the relevant statements come into play.

The Minister has said that there are some crazy notions, suggesting that directors will be responsible if a sales representative is driving a mile over the speed limit and so on. I know that is not what is required under the legislation, though some people have read it that way. The legislation states that directors will have to sign a compliance statement with the relevant obligations defined in the companies acts, tax laws and enactments within a legal framework in which the company operates and which could materially affect a company's financial statement – I am reading from the explanatory memorandum.

I am concerned about this reference to the compliance statement materially affecting the company's financial statement. I will give a well known example, published in the media. Consider some of the large public companies accused of being complicit in illegal dumping taking place on their property. One could argue that if these company directors were required to sign a compliance statement in terms of the Waste Management Act and pollution Acts, they would not be in breach of those Acts. It is, however, necessary for all major companies to operate within the legal environment of waste management Acts, planning Acts and so on. In circumstances where company directors have to sign the compliance statement and liability is contested – it might not be quantified for a long time – a serious question mark could be put over the company's accounts. That should be taken into account.

Everyone operates within the legal framework of the planning laws. It should not be required of directors, every time they sign an annual report, to confirm that every shed, property and asset is fully in compliance with the planning laws. They should of course be in compliance, we all agree, but to ask for a specific certificate to be produced may complicate the signing-off of the financial statement. That needs to be considered. There are mechanisms under the existing waste management and planning laws and under other legislation to deal with companies and organisations where there are people in breach of regulations, without the need to bring in such a draconian requirement as a director's compliance statement. This is why the legislation has attracted so much attention. The legislation was meant to be worthwhile and this issue must be clarified. It is important that we strike a balance between regulation and normal acceptable business practice.

I recall a previous Minister who was very prominent in Irish public life. He was a former Minister for Industry and Commerce, the former name of the Department now sponsoring this legislation. He eventually had a very prominent name, but most people say he was anti-business, pro-regulation and pro-rules. He did not trust business people or professional advisers. Most of what he set out to do was anti-business. When we are passing legislation it is important to assist the consumers, the users of the accounts and the public at large. We should not go over the top and be considered anti-business in our legislation, where it is not necessary to do so.

It has been noted that some of the biggest financial undertakings in this country are major foreign operations. Many are operating as branches of foreign-registered companies. In my constituency recently, an organisation decided to close down and people wanted to know the company's financial situation. We found out that the company was not incorporated in Ireland though it had been in the country for 40 years. It was a branch of a company registered in the United States of America and therefore had no legal requirement to file accounts in Ireland under the Companies Act. This sort of organisation, of which there are many in Ireland, will not be caught by this legislation, but domestic Irish-owned and Irish-run companies will be caught by these new compliance statements. We are putting Irish businesses in Ireland at a disadvantage in comparison with some major foreign operations in Ireland which choose not to incorporate here. There is no requirement on them to do so. I hope that issue will be addressed.

Considering the detail of the legislation before us, we must ask why we are considering it now. The background is a report to the Committee of Public Accounts in a previous Dáil term. A review group was set up by the then Minister, the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, and was asked to examine the following principal issues: self-regulation in the auditing profession, auditor independence, the auditing of financial institutions and the role of the auditor in ensuring compliance with statutory provisions. The group was ably and effectively chaired by Senator O'Toole, a Member of the Oireachtas who did his work quickly. The group began its work in February 2000 and completed it at the end of June 2000. I commend the group on its important work.

Since then, new issues have come to light which have made the review group and the legislation now before us far more relevant in the eyes of the public. I need merely mention Enron and WorldCom and some of the dotcom failures and fiascos. The public has in recent years seen large-scale financial disasters caused by bad management, bad directors and bad auditing. People now feel that there is a very strong need for such legislation, though they may not have felt that five, six or seven years ago. Those companies which collapsed, primarily in the US, would have had subsidiaries operating in Ireland. Some of the accountancy firms which audited them operated in Ireland. We cannot therefore pretend such disasters could never have happened here. There is no difference between circumstances in the US and Ireland. We are fortunate that disasters did not take place in Ireland to the same extent. I know people will list one or two cases where there were major difficulties involving Irish companies, but we will not discuss these now.

There is one reason for all these disasters, and that is corporate greed. Chief executives and boards of directors were greedy. They wanted to increase the level of their business, their net wealth, their turnover, their share value, their options and so on. Greed was the sole motivating force behind the artificially created figures placing an inordinately high value on intangible assets that were not there when the chips were called in.

It is part of the human psyche that people are greedy. We must therefore ensure that regulations are in place so that such greed does not translate into false financial statements when presented to an unsuspecting public. The auditors have a key role in this regard. Many business correspondents in the US say more damage was done to the corporate culture in that country as a result of the Enron and WorldCom scandals than by various terrorist attacks. Their mismanagement and corporate greed did more damage to their financial credibility on the world stock exchanges than any other action.

The auditors involved in the Enron case were Arthur Andersen who also operated out of Ireland. That company ceased operating a few weeks after it was caught shredding its audit files and was rendered in contempt of court proceedings. The entire business community simply walked away from the company overnight. The partners and staff involved had to disperse and find new jobs. The Enron case left a true trail of misery for those who lost money and stocks, the employees, the unsecured creditors and the auditors.

Something which I learned while training as an auditor and accountant is that an accountancy firm has only one asset, its reputation. The value of its office, company cars, staff or money in the bank means nothing if it does not have a good reputation. It is important that we produce legislation which ensures we operate to the highest possible standards taking account of the integrity and credibility of those involved in preparing and auditing financial information. That is the reason this legislation is before us today. It is now more relevant that when we set out on this road some years ago.

It is important that the recommendations of the review group on the financial institutions are dealt with by the Minister for Finance in the context of the new legislation on the financial regulatory authority to be introduced by him later this year. That particular aspect is not covered by this legislation. One of the main objectives of this legislation is to establish the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority whose duty it will be to intervene in the disciplinary process of the accounting bodies when it deems necessary, to carry out investigations of possible breaches of standards of prescribed accountancy bodies by their members and to apply to the courts to compel directors of a company to amend accounts which are not in compliance with the Companies Act. The new authority will have a very clear-cut role and that is to be welcomed.

On the appointment of the supervisory authority by the Minister, I note that she intends to amend the Bill as a result of the debate in the Seanad. I understand the supervisory board will now comprise up to 14 director members of which up to five may be members of relevant accountancy bodies. The vast majority of people on the supervisory board will be non-members of the accounting profession. Perhaps that is good. I firmly believe, from reports produced by professional organisations, that it is not their view that is important, rather it is how it reads to an unsuspecting member of the public that matters. It is difficult for members of the profession not to have a majority on the board but they will accept the increase in representation announced by the Minister on Committee Stage. Having up to five members on the board is a significant improvement on the current position.

The Bill states that bodies such as IBEC, ICTU, the Association of Investment Managers, the Stock Exchange and Pensions Board will be able to nominate people to the board. Also included are, the Central Bank, the Revenue Commissioners and the Director of Corporate Enforcement. On first reading, all appears fine. I now wonder if there is a possible conflict between the latter offices and issues that might arise at a future date. For example, the first question that will be asked if the IAASA do not pick up on an a audit scandal involving an issue of corporate enforcement or a breach of Revenue or Central Bank regulations is why the Revenue Commissioners, Central Bank and Director of Corporate Enforcement were represented on that body in the first instance. Those responsible for nominating them to the board will investigate possible breaches by them of the law. We should reconsider that in the light of future breaches to ensure members of the supervisory boards are not required to investigate breaches under the headings mentioned. If there is a good, valid reason for the provision to remain as it is, I will accept it.

Funding of the supervisory board is to be provided on a 60:40 basis by the Exchequer and accountancy bodies. I understand the Minister has agreed to consult the bodies before agreeing to the imposition of this levy. There are a number of other issues which I wished to raise. However, I will have an opportunity to do so if I attend the Committee Stage debate which is open to all Members of the House.

Deputy Fleming and others referred to changes the Minister proposes to make following the debate in the Seanad six months ago. It is a pity the changes were not made before today to allow us to properly debate this matter. The Deputy also said this Bill was introduced as a result of malpractice on the part of greedy managing directors and so on. Does he agree that greed for power can often lead to malpractice? That can happen closer to home than in companies.

This Bill will be significant legislation for a long time in terms of Irish business. I am not sure if, in the future, we will regret its introduction or will stand back and pat ourselves on the back. Most of the provisions are required to deal with large companies and their auditors and the legislation will help to instil confidence in the system. I fear the major headaches it will cause for small and medium-sized business. Small businesses are the backbone of the Irish economy particularly in our rural villages and small towns. We need to pave the way for them, not put up barriers. In order to keep control of the big dogs, we hurt the small ones. A few bad eggs often spoil the show for others, not alone in the area of corporate governance but also in the area of alcohol, crime and so on. In trying to get at a few, we get at everybody.

The Bill will cause great hardship for existing small business and may prevent or discourage new start-ups. It may lead to an elitism of accountants and auditors lining their already plump pockets as small businesses try to cope with all the new laws introduced by this Bill and others. For example, the Meath County Enterprise Board has assisted more than 500 new businesses in the last seven years creating almost 1,000 new jobs. These jobs are sustainable because, unlike the foreign multi-nationals, they do not pack their bags and leave when the tax incentives dry up. They stay and weather the storms and do their best. We need to protect such people.

I am a member of an enterprise board and have met many entrepreneurs whose backs are to the wall trying to survive the first couple of years in business. I fear that Bills like this might make things a little too hard for them. It will increase audit fees and administration costs and will make the option of becoming a sole trader an easy but riskier alternative. It is not good enough to say people can remain as sole traders. That is not fair because it puts their homes and families at risk. We should encourage people to operate limited companies. I would not like us to introduce a Bill that sneakily pushes people into becoming sole traders. It is difficult to control sole traders so we should try to bring people into the loop rather than put them out.

Like my colleagues, I accept this Bill is important legislation for our accountants and auditors. I support its intent, but I would like to hear from the Minister how she intends to ease the burden of smaller businesses. The Bill brings into effect the recommendations of the review group on auditing established following the inquiry of the Committee of Public Accounts into the DIRT scandal. That scandal rocked the country and proved the need for change to regain the confidence of the public. More recent scandals, such as those involving Enron and WorldCom, have added increased pressure for new controls and regulations.

However, it is important not to go too far in this area. If regulation becomes too draconian, Ireland will lose out and become unattractive to foreign investors. In addition, many Irish entrepreneurs will think again before becoming involved in the risky world of business. The added costs that will come with new legislation will probably render many small companies uncompetitive.

The Government has done nothing in the past seven years to protect established businesses and industries, such as furniture and carpeting, from ever increasing competition from abroad and increasing costs, be it insurance, electricity, staff and so on. Rather than solve these problems it proposes to add more costs and burdens.

The gist of the report of the review group is the need for a new model to regulate the accountancy profession. Some change was needed as the existing model is based on self-regulation by the profession. While the majority of the members of the various accountancy bodies, such as the Institute of Certified Public Accountants and the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland, are honourable and decent women and men, bad eggs always seem to emerge. In view of this, a system of self-regulation is not always satisfactory and is certainly not perfect. It can create the wrong perception and leaves room for questioning and doubt.

Self-regulation happened because it suited those involved. The members of the profession, the customers and the Government were happy with the service being provided. However, change is needed. Doubtless there was much debate on how far the new form of regulation should go, including the question of complete regulation by the State. The form proposed in the Bill is satisfactory. A model which allows the State to play a greater role in regulation while not taking over all aspects of it is sufficient.

A major benefit of self-regulation was the avoidance of direct cost to the taxpayer. The proposal to establish the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority will allow for an examination of how accountancy bodies undertake self-regulation. I hope the new authority will ensure that the right procedures and processes are in place and that fair, independent decisions are made. This should go a long way to preventing bad practice, either on purpose or through error, and will help to prevent dodgy or creative accounting practices. It should also go a long way to dispel the concerns of members of the public that they are being exploited.

The perception of accountants and auditors looking after themselves will be gone as "chaps regulating chaps" is no longer good enough. Deputies have highlighted that it will still be very difficult to prevent those who do not hold membership of any of the accountancy bodies from portraying themselves as accountants. This is quite common and can lead to many problems, both for the customer and the image of the accountancy profession. I look forward to the Minster of State's views on this. It is easy for a person to pass himself or herself off as an accountant because after a few years studying on an accountancy course and working alongside some fully trained accountant, one could easily perform the functions required by small businesses or personal clients. I studied an accountancy course for a couple of years and am regularly approached by people asking me to do their accounts. I am not fully trained, nor am I a member of any organisation. Most people want to get the job done and as cheaply as possible. They are not aware of the various accountancy bodies and the importance of membership of them. In view of this it is important that people's credentials are checked before they are hired.

This issue needs to be addressed, especially as the legislation might discourage potential practising accountants from joining a professional body because of the regulations in place. Perhaps a good advertising campaign, similar to the current campaign warning of fraudulent practices in the insurance industry, alerting the public to the dangers of rogue accountants might be sufficient. It would make people aware of the pitfalls and alert them to the fact that the chances of follow-up services are poor if they employ an accountant who is not regulated.

The emphasis in the new legislation is to increase regulation and red tape at a time when we should be looking at ways to reduce the burdens these impose. It is a matter of having regulation at the right price. We want to encourage and help small businesses, not discourage them.

I am also concerned about the proposed audit exemption thresholds. A figure below €1 million is too low. It is crazy that consideration is being given to a figure of approximately €317,000 when the figure in Northern Ireland is £1 million and £1.27 million in the United Kingdom, with proposals to increase the limit to over £4 million. We should level the playing field to give domestic companies a fair chance to compete on the European and world stage. I understand the Minister of State is considering a change to the threshold figure, which is to be welcomed. While we wish to send out a clear message that Ireland is taking the lead in this area, we must apply common sense. We do not want to create a situation where Ireland becomes less competitive and less attractive to inward investment.

The legislation provides for strict compliance statements to be prepared and signed by members of boards of directors, many of whom act as mentors on behalf of their communities. This provision could lead to a brain drain from the boards. While I understand why it is proposed, it must be asked if it is going too far. Some local credit unions have huge turnovers. If their directors are to be compelled to sign these statements they may prefer to resign. Many of them are not professionals but local community activists with a good solid head on their shoulders. They have chosen to represent their communities on these boards. If they are to be subject to this requirement they will not become involved. There is a need to reconsider this aspect.

In another life I almost became an accountant. The education system tends to encourage students to follow examination results rather than vocational choices. Eventually I found myself stumbling towards foundation two level examinations for certified public accountancy, at which point I had a road to Damascus conversion and decided on other pursuits.

Including making money.

I am not sure about that. My experience at least instilled in me an ability to read accounts and acquire a fascination with figures, even if these days they are more concerned with election results and football tables.

The report of the review group on auditing and the reaction of the various accountancy bodies says something about the lack of public confidence that has accompanied the presentation of figures, not only in Ireland but globally, including the reaction to the catastrophic events involving Enron and WorldCom. Smaller scale events in this country do not bode well for instilling a sense of public confidence. In view of this, the need to establish the review group and act on its recommendations was unanswerable.

There will be a need on Committee Stage to ascertain if what is proposed to deal with the review group's recommendations is appropriate in all circumstances. I noted with interest Deputy Fleming's remarks. While I escaped the accountancy profession, many of my friends stayed in it, some becoming gamekeepers turned poachers when they became finance officers with various companies.

Many accountants are one-person operations, many are in partnerships while others are involved in unlimited liability situations. It must be asked, therefore, if the additional responsibility to be imposed on them is appropriate. There should be a more graded approach to deal with different types of accountancies and accountants. Accountants I know tend to specialise in certain areas. Some are involved solely in the social economy and have no involvement in widespread commercial activity.

Over the years the State has rightly developed accounting mechanisms to account for how State money has been allocated, such as the FÁS and community employment schemes. Audits are produced at a cost of €200 to €400 per audit. However, they are often done on a voluntary basis because of the trouble involved for the accountant concerned. It amounts to an additional cost for many of the largely voluntary organisations concerned.

The Bill contains provisions to deal with the auditing requirements of charities, but there is a need to question if the requirements are commensurate with the scale of activities undertaken by charities or voluntary organisations and the accountants or accountancy firms who choose to deal with them.

According to the Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland, Ireland is likely to have the toughest regulatory regime as a result of the legislation, but that is hyperbole. Even if it were true, what of it? The highest standards are needed, given that Ireland is competing in the global market as it tries to encourage people to invest here. Nod and wink accountancy should not be the norm. If foreign companies locate here, they should account for what they produce and their profits. The review group is to be congratulated in this regard. The Minister of State has adopted the correct approach, subject to my caveat regarding the size of firms.

The Committee of Public Accounts, of which I am a member, earlier discussed the Revenue Commissioners' dealings with banks. There has been a number of controversies in recent years relating to National Irish Bank, the Ansbacher Cayman deal and the DIRT inquiry. These scandals highlighted failures in auditing and accounting. Sometimes banks were audited by the Central Bank, while on other occasions individual accountants advised clients to invest money in different ways to avoid tax. This is the Irish equivalent of the Enron and Worldcom scandals. Money slipped out of the system and double standards operated. The accountancy profession, even through its representative bodies, was found lacking by not asking questions that needed to be asked about proper standards. That is why I am disappointed by the reaction of the ICAI.

It is to the credit of the review group and the Minister that the introduction of the legislation puts Ireland ahead of other jurisdictions in this area. Our nearest neighbour is lagging behind us, even though it suffered as a result of the behaviour of the large accountancy firm, Arthur Andersen, a major contributor to the Enron scandal. The IAASA must act as a proper policing authority to strike off individuals and firms. It is an international scandal that the firm of Arthur Andersen is still operating. I am not sure whether the company still conducts business in Ireland but it established different companies in individual countries while still operating as part of an international conglomerate that observed unacceptable standards. Hopefully, the supervisory authority will demand better standards.

The reason the authority will not be established on a statutory footing is beyond me. This will compromise its independence in terms of achieving better accounting and auditing standards. The provision of a limited guarantee mechanism to companies suggests that, on ideological grounds, the Minister of State wants the authority to be regulated as a public private partnership. If the Government intends to go down this road in regard to independent regulators of other professions, such as the legal profession, I am not sure this model lends itself to making bodies more politically accountable to Ministers and the House. This mechanism might be an attempt to make sure there is less political accountability, although it is promoted in such a way as to pretend it has greater independence.

The use of regulators for many services under competitive pressures highlights an inability of Members to ask the correct questions to ensure those who act as regulators are properly brought to account. The Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority was established recently. No mechanism has been provided for the Oireachtas to question its operations, whether that is through the House, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service or the Committee of Public Accounts. The same applies to the communications regulator and other regulators who have been appointed over the past ten years, ostensibly to ensure undue political influence is not brought to bear. However, that has been done at the expense of proper political accountability. I am sceptical, in the absence of a satisfactory explanation by the Minister of State, as this mechanism may remove further powers of accountability from the House, which would be unfortunate.

While the authority is a partnership between various State bodies and ministerial representatives, a significant number of representatives of the accountancy profession will be appointed. It is only a marginal move away from self-regulation. The authority will comprise 13 members – I do not know whether that bodes ill for its future – and many of the appointees will be accountants and auditors. That will make it difficult for the authority to establish itself and gain the public confidence it needs to make sure the profession is going about its work independently and with integrity.

The Green Party is generally happy a stronger framework will be implemented because it is necessary in terms of international standards and in terms of generating greater confidence in how standards are applied nationally. We are concerned the legislation will be a broad brush stroke, which will disproportionately affect those who do not engage in commercial activity. The structure of the proposed authority and the new mechanism that has been devised undermine our ability to question it effectively and make it politically accountable. Significant representation of the accountancy profession on the authority means it is a halfway house between self-regulation and what might be achieved.

I hope these issues will be teased out on Committee Stage and the legislation will put Ireland ahead of other jurisdictions in terms of setting standards for the accountancy profession. The challenge is to make sure the best standards are implemented and do not have to be revisited so that the legislation remains in place a long time.

I am delighted to contribute to this debate and to welcome this important legislation, the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003. I have often heard it said that the public sector is wasteful of public funds. Some people claim there is no accountability in respect of how public funds are spent. Since being appointed Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, however, I have realised that the levels of accountability and responsibility that apply to the expenditure of taxpayers' funds in the State are very high. If most private commercial entities were subject to the same levels of scrutiny and assessment as the Comptroller and Auditor General exercises over public entities, I assure the House there would be far less corporate fraud or white-collar corruption. While the system of public accountability is not perfect, it has considerably more merit than some private sector models.

I welcome the establishment of the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority. I hope the authority will function effectively to ensure that auditors and accountants operate to the highest possible standards. An independent regulatory entity that operates effectively and efficiently is an essential prerequisite for the maintenance of the highest possible standards in corporate life.

The need for this legislation is perhaps a sad reflection of the deterioration in professional standards. The role of professionals as an unassailable and trustworthy bulwark of commercial life has been seriously dented by recent scandals. This is due, in part, to an increase in greed and a general deterioration in ethics and professional standards. In another sense, it is due to increased competition in professional services where price is not the only currency traded. Some clients may prefer to use advisers who are prepared to cut corners and to turn a blind eye. As a society, we need to address and tackle this tendency with vigour.

Mr. Frank Daly, the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, stated clearly at today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts that any tax evasion on the part of the banks will be dealt with very decisively in future. The role of financial advisers and the financial institutions in accommodating those who wish to avoid paying tax, for example by recommending ways of evading tax through off-shore bank accounts, will be examined. Those who aid and abet tax evasion on the part of banks will be prosecuted in the courts and may be liable for imprisonment. It is certainly a very solid approach.

The fact that a great deal of tax evasion has been encouraged and accommodated by financial institutions was clearly evident today. The Bank of Ireland's off-shore accounts in Jersey were focused on the evasion of tax, which cannot be condoned. I was delighted Mr. Daly put down a clear marker today that any future accommodation of tax evasion on the part of financial advisers or the State's financial institutions will be dealt with in a very decisive manner. Such action is very much needed.

I hope the new culture of compliance being created in response to the recent scandals can operate in a proportionate and balanced manner. It is important that the new regulations and the system of supervision do not stifle initiative or enterprise. The costs of compliance should not be prohibitive. In this sense, we need to review some of the regulatory controls and requirements that we impose on small enterprises. It is ludicrous to expect a small family company to be subject to the same compliance requirements as a large plc. Balance is needed in this regard.

It is important that we pursue the concept of effective but simple control. Many small companies cannot afford to employ an in-house accountant and may depend on secretarial back-up. It is critically important that they are not burdened by bureaucracy. Managers should not have to fill out many forms.

The controls the Government puts in place should be simple. The State is becoming very bureaucratic. People feel that power is being exerted on the lower levels by the higher levels. It is important that we achieve a balance in this regard. The rules relating to VAT, PRSI and PAYE should be simple. The regulatory reforms and accounting procedures deemed necessary for small, private and owner-managed operations should provide for a clear distinction between a company and a family-owned concern. The latter type of operation may not benefit from the protections enjoyed by a company. People who take certain risks in their operations may not be prepared to enter into the company structure.

The chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Frank Daly, said there should be total compliance in respect of outstanding tax arrears. There has been a considerable tax write-off. In May of this year the level of outstanding taxes was €1.3 billion. It will be impossible to collect some €750 million of this figure, as it has been outstanding for more than ten years. The Revenue Commissioners might be best advised to write off this inherited debt, given that good compliance and accountancy procedures are about to be put in place. The commissioners should accept that they will be unable to get the money. Some €1.5 billion in outstanding taxes was owed to the State in May 2002, a figure that decreased to €1.3 billion by May 2003. The difference, which was written off by the Revenue Commissioners, was €178 million. The reduction between 2002 and 2003 was €200 million. There was a difference of €8 million. In a real sense, the difference was not actually the amount that was reduced, but the revenue that was written off by the Revenue Commissioners. In terms of accountancy practice, one has to face the reality that the system needs to be cleared out.

I hope the new authority will retain its original objective of maintaining the high level of standards that, I am sure, exists in the accountancy and auditing professions. The authority should ensure that standards are not compromised. That should be the authority's bottom line if it is to achieve its objective.

Fine Gael welcomes the chance to debate this Bill which, as Deputy Hogan said, is vitally important. It brings into effect the recommendations of the review group on auditing, which sat between February and July 2000 and was ably chaired by Senator Joe O'Toole. The review group was established following the inquiry of the Committee of Public Accounts into DIRT. The group was asked to address a number of issues, including the regulation of accountants and the independence of auditors. The Minister of State spoke about these issues at some length. This is a critical test. The fact that up to €1 billion will be collected as a result of the DIRT inquiry is a great achievement. The Revenue Commissioners and all involved in the DIRT inquiry should be commended. One of my esteemed colleagues was involved.

I thank the Deputy.

They did a great service for the nation. The Comptroller and Auditor General has also given extraordinary service to a process that will earn up to €1 billion for the Exchequer. The foundation of this Bill has come from the DIRT inquiry. It is clear that lessons have been learned.

This Bill seeks to establish the Irish Auditing and Accounting Supervisory Authority, which will have powers to supervise the functions of recognised accountancy bodies. The review group concluded that we need to move to a new model of regulating the accountancy profession. The existing model is based, effectively, on complete self-regulation by the profession. Such self-regulation is very hard to control. That model developed over the years for two reasons. The accountancy profession wanted self-regulation and successive Governments and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment were happy to give this responsibility to the profession. There are difficulties with self-regulation.

It is very important that we have a totally independent body. The Government did not seem to have the inclination or desire to invest the necessary resources to carry out an effective regulatory role. It was perfectly happy for accountants to regulate themselves. The review group on auditing decided that this had to change and, as a consequence, this Bill is before the House today.

The Fine Gael Party has a number of concerns in regard to the Bill. As my party spokesman pointed out, over 95% of companies are small owner-dominated companies comprising the two persons who are allotted shares on a company being incorporated. These companies rely on accounting auditors to assist them in the area of tax compliance and company filing obligations. The statutory obligations on limited companies are huge. The Companies Registration Office is doing a good job. It is important that a company be struck off within a certain period if accounts are not filed on time.

It is an inappropriate response to the DIRT inquiry and scandals such as Enron and Élan, that the auditors of small companies would be culpable under the proposed legislation under the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. These scandals involved a small number of large companies – known as the big five – which carried out audits of publicly quoted holding companies and their associated companies and branches. What took place was completely fraudulent. The extent to which the principles of corporate governance was ignored is unbelievable. Private investors lost huge sums of money which they invested on the basis of the recommendation and certification of such companies.

Those major companies with international link chains did a serious injustice to the accounting profession. The majority of accountants in small practices are of the view that the €317,000 audit exemption turnover threshold for small companies which was introduced in 1999 should be lifted to a more realistic level.

The amount of extra work arising from recent and proposed legislative changes is making audits for small companies unaffordable. This unwelcome burden on small businesses will affect their competitiveness. Deputy Boyle referred to small community enterprise companies. Ballymote Show operates as a limited company. It has to spend up to €500 to audit a turnover of less than €400,000. This is wrong and I hope the Minister of State will take this point on board. There should be some exemptions where the company is a voluntary community-oriented one. A certain limitation could be placed on turnover. Communities have failed to secure grants for pitches because their accounts were not fully compliant. I urge the Minister to examine this area with the aim of securing a derogation for this sector, subject to certain controls, as it has driven the country's success. The work of voluntary community groups is critical to the economy.

Community enterprise companies are usually limited by guarantee. They are development companies solely for community use and should not require a full audit or certificate of compliance. A limited community company with which I am familiar had to pay €7,000 for an audit. The level of accountancy charges needs to be examined. There is a wide variation in the scale of charges. In the same way as it is hard to extricate oneself from an insurance company, it is also hard to change one's accountancy firm. If one makes an insurance claim one is locked in with the company as no other company is willing to take on the risk. It is difficult to get documentation released by accountancy firms and, as a result, one becomes locked in.

All companies start out small, possibly as risky start-up enterprises. Due to the legal exposure on directors and auditors, entrepreneurs will be more likely to set up ventures in less punitive jurisdictions where legislation, quite properly, sets out the role of the auditors as a watchdog rather than a bloodhound. There is a big difference between the two.

The Fine Gael Party believes that the obvious and most realistic amendment to the proposed Bill is to increase the audit exemption turnover threshold to a more realistic and commercial level. A sum of €300,000 amounts to a weekly turnover of only €6,000 per week. That is a low figure for any business and could be generated from the sale of postage stamps or greeting cards. The EU fourth directive of 1978 did not make a distinction between small companies for accounts filing purposes as against audit exemption purposes. In the Companies (Amendment) Act 1986, the requirements to file a balance sheet defined a small company as having a turnover of not more than £3.17 million, which is a considerable turnover. The 1999 Act ought to have stayed loyal to the definition of small company under the previous Act. This issue needs to be examined by the Minister. There is no parity in regard to the auditing exemption.

Research into exemption thresholds in other European countries clearly highlights the fact that ours is significantly lower than most of our neighbours. We need to aim for harmonisation with Northern Ireland, let alone Europe. In Northern Ireland the current threshold for turnover is £1 million compared to €317,000 here. A company trading in Newry with a turnover of £900,000 is not statutorily required to have an audit while a company trading across the Border in Dundalk with the same level of turnover is required to do so, thereby incurring additional costs. The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, who is from Donegal is familiar with the competitiveness issue in regard to Donegal versus Derry. This provision will hardly produce a climate conducive to cross-Border trade or an all-Ireland economy. I understand that a consultation paper has been published in the North suggesting that the threshold be increased from £1 million to about £4.8 million and that this is under consideration. This would put us at a clear disadvantage. The Minister of State might have some preliminary thoughts on this matter. I look forward to it being dealt with on Committee Stage. The Border counties are being put under pressure. There is currently a massive exodus in many areas. I look forward to debating this further and making amendments.

The proposed change to accountancy procedures is very much to be welcomed. It is important that the role of accountants be clearly monitored. The issue of derogations for community-based enterprises needs to be examined. This is a visionary Bill which is far ahead of developments in the UK. We should implement the best possible template for future procedures in this area. What happened in the United States with the big five companies clearly damaged the credibility of auditing and total compliance with legislation is paramount.

I listened with interest to the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Purcell, and the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners speak of the accommodation by big banks of tax evasion. A clear message went out today from the Committee of Public Accounts in regard to the matter of the accommodation by State financial institutions. This cannot be tolerated and those involved will be liable to prosecution and imprisonment. This is not half good enough for them because many innocent victims opened accounts that were implicated in the DIRT inquiry and they were accommodated and encouraged by banks to do so. This has led to a huge amount of difficulties.

We should recognise the origins of this Bill which springs from the famous DIRT inquiry referred to by previous speakers. We should also recognise the late former Deputy Jim Mitchell who chaired the proceedings at the time. Deputy Rabbitte, former Deputy Seán Doherty, former Deputy Denis Foley, Deputy Ardagh and my humble self soldiered with him. Because of the dedication of the Chairman and the single-mindedness with which he pursued his objective, we crammed into five or six months an inquiry that would probably have taken five or six years in another arena. The total cost was approximately €1 million while the net returns are approaching €1 billion. This is an example of how, in spite of shortcomings in the Oireachtas, its simple, humble Members were able to carry out a function at a much lower cost than would have arisen elsewhere. There was far less fuss and dramatic results.

We need to remember the efforts of the late Jim Mitchell during the DIRT inquiry and the work he did as Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts. It was sad that he lost his seat in the subsequent general election and that he passed on. I do not know if there is a salutary lesson for us in this but one would have always expected that there should be some reward for one's efforts. Jim Mitchell certainly did not receive it when he was alive. Let us hope he will be remembered for his work.

The Committee of Public Accounts was way ahead of its time in respect of what happened and continues to happen in other jurisdictions. It was way ahead in identifying the kernel of the problem. The reports produced as a result of the DIRT inquiry, now before us, serve as a clear example that we, in this small jurisdiction, were able to recognise the dangers of what had happened and what was liable to happen again.

We sat in committee over a period of about 18 months considering the Companies Bill 1990. It was most intricate legislation to eliminate mismanagement of an accountancy nature. This obviously did not happen. Despite the best inputs from some of the most highly qualified in the country during the consideration of that Bill, it was regarded as having shortcomings only five years after its enactment. It is intended that the Companies (Auditing and Accounting) Bill 2003 will do its job but it can only do so if the conditions and regulations laid down are observed to the letter.

During the DIRT inquiry a Sunday newspaper released information to the effect that there was something not entirely right regarding the operation of offshore accounts. All members of the Committee of Public Accounts at the time immediately thought back to ascertain if we had asked the right questions and had been present at the time. This is because some time had elapsed when the disclosure took place. We were all anxious to find out if the questions we had asked were capable of drawing out the relevant information and feared that we might have been negligent in some way. We discovered that we had been present at the time and did ask the right questions. However, if the information that should have been available was not available to the person to whom we were putting the questions, we were at odds and serving no useful purpose.

The same principle applies today. No matter what regulations we make or what restrictions or obligations we place on those carrying out audits, it is imperative that all relevant information is made available at all times to protect the professionalism and competence of the auditor and the company or companies on whose behalf the auditor is operating. Otherwise, the currency of what is being tendered in a report is of no significance.

As we progress, it is essential that we recognise the mistakes made in the past and do something about them. We should ensure there is continuity when companies change auditors and that information is carried forward, thus allowing a person doing a subsequent audit to refer to information gleaned previously. Not only should there be an exit report, there should also be one that can be stood over and which will stand up to tests.

I cannot and will never understand how certain events in Indonesia and the Allfirst scandal happened. With modern technology, it is possible to spot within ten minutes a glitch in a system or something that is happening that should not happen. I cannot understand how up to $700 million went offside, as it were, in Allfirst before anybody found out. When this occurred, the Committee of Public Accounts was told by the Governor of the Central Bank that all that could have been done had been done and that, because the operation was outside the country, it was not possible to access the relevant information in time, despite the fact that the parent company was located in this jurisdiction and that its overseas activities could have had serious implications for the economy.

The Allfirst affair was the second major warning we got in this jurisdiction in the past 20 years. The other concerned an insurance subsidiary based in the United Kingdom. They seemed to walk away afterwards, apologise and state there was a slight glitch in the system. What about the victims and those who lose money? The imprisonment of the perpetrators does not do anything for them, nor does it recover all of the jobs lost or the reputations that fall by the wayside as a result of somebody's negligence, deliberate or otherwise.

I still do not understand how, even under this legislation, we will be able to combat a repetition of what happened in Allfirst. While it will be argued that action was taken, it was similar in nature to that taken after a crime. Prevention is better than the cure and we need to be in a position, with the assistance of modern technology, to create circumstances in which it will be possible to detect a person plotting a misdemeanour before it is executed.

The accountancy and auditing professions perform certain recognised tests in companies and repeated failure to pass such tests is supposed to set off an alarm. A person who wants to carry out a scam must, therefore, play between the posts, so to speak, which means identifying where tests will be performed and on whom, and trying to avoid them in the hope that by the time detection occurs, it will not make a difference.

It is no good arguing that illegal practices will occur because the credibility of the economy often rests on the ability of the State to ensure they do not happen. An export-based economy such as this requires the highest possible credit rating. We need to be able to show our competitors and trading partners that we have the best systems in place and have learned from harsh experience here and elsewhere. We have learned from such experiences domestically through the DIRT inquiry and had similar experiences overseas with ICI in the United Kingdom, Allfirst Bank in the United States and countless others.

Companies which employ a firm of accountants or auditors have a reputation, on which their workforce and management have a right to be able to depend. Their accountancy or auditing firm must not tell them what they want to hear when it suits them, but what they should be doing and how to react to a changing economic climate in order to survive and expand healthily. They also have to warn them about pitfalls, snags, traps and snares – the facilities for doing so are available – to ensure other unscrupulous operators are not plotting their downfall and hoping to skim off a couple of hundred million euro before vanishing to sunny climes to indulge themselves for the rest of their lives. This is what infuriates victims. It is bad enough to lose one's life savings and be codded, but what really riles them is that they know the person who planned or plotted the scam is now living in a Caribbean hideaway where the sun permanently shines and he or she can rely on a steady supply of Cuba Libres under palm trees, while they have to rebuild their lives and companies.

The extent to which the new agency will be able to lay down strict parameters within which business operates will be determined by how well the agency enforces the rules and the frequency of its checks. I hope we do not have to return to this issue in a few years, as occurred in the case of the Companies Act. I am familiar with that episode because I spent 18 months buried out of sight in a committee across the road. The most awful place one can be is in a committee for a long period without anyone knowing, even if one is legislating. The so-called experts will argue this is what we should be doing all the time – working out of sight and out of mind. If, however, it emerges after such a lengthy exercise that one was unable to prevent unfortunate events, one feels one has wasted one's time in pursuit of one's objective. One then has a serious problem.

This legislation could be of considerable benefit to other jurisdictions. While other countries have similar mechanisms, I am not certain they work. If they did, why did the scams of recent years occur? A speaker on the Government side referred to corporate greed, which is a feature of today's society. Greed in general, not only corporate greed, is rampant in society. This is a sad development which reflects on all of us. A tendency has emerged for people to compete to make more money faster than ever before. Once one is seen to get away with doing so, everybody else wants to get on the bandwagon and although this is human nature, it does not do us any good. I am sure the Minister and Deputies present can recall many circumstances in recent years where getting greedy was not such a good thing. Ultimately, everybody pays a price.

The legislation will transfer the powers of the Minister over recognised accountancy bodies under the Companies Acts to the new supervisory authority. I welcome the change from having two Ministers with direct responsibility for this area to a single body with overall responsibility. The potential problem lies in whether the new body will be effective. The tendency nowadays is to create another body every time one encounters a difficulty. As the office of the Ceann Comhairle will inform Members, these bodies are not answerable to the House and Deputies who table questions about them are informed that the relevant Minister has no official responsibility for the body in question. While we have all complained about this, when in power, all parties have created new bodies with specific functions, for which the relevant Minister was not accountable to the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:

The Deputy has two minutes remaining.

Time runs out, regardless of how much one is enjoying oneself. The Minister for Finance will have some responsibilities and I hope he will not run away from them in future or deny that an issue is his problem. We have to prevent problems from occurring and tackle them as they arise.

As regards the requirement on companies to disclose non-audit fees to auditors, this issue was addressed extensively during the DIRT inquiry. It was devised by companies as a method of saying "Hello" to auditing companies and vice versa. Although it should not have created difficulties, we felt it did. I hope this Bill is sufficient to do the job required and that we have learned lessons from the past.

Hopefully, it will be possible through this legislation to counter the type of thing that happened with Allfirst. We were told that it could not be done at the time and that the type of body proposed in the Bill might not be able to do it either. If we cannot do that, we still have a problem. If it should transpire that the assets of a major player in the international arena can be siphoned from this country by an overseas subsidiary, it will present serious problems which we might have to revisit in the future.

I am glad to have the opportunity to speak on this important legislation. I cannot claim to have examined the Bill in detail but during a recent visit to the owners of a number of small industries I was given their reaction in strong terms and heard their anxieties about how they will be affected if the legislation is implemented as proposed. The Minister agreed to introduce amendments to the Bill as a result of the debate that took place in the Seanad. Perhaps those amendments or amendments put down in the Dáil will ease the burden on small companies.

My constituency depends on small companies and these companies depend on being able to compete with their counterparts across the Border. This can be a distance of one or a few miles. That is where these companies have their labour base and anything that affects it is extremely serious. Some days ago I spoke to a person who has been in business for more than 20 years. The company exports most of its products to the UK and further afield. It is already under serious pressure because it does not have access to broadband. I put down a parliamentary question about it but I was told that nobody knows when it will be available. It might come down from the sky but there are no plans to provide it. The company will have to pay for some type of service which will allow it to continue in business. If it cannot get its product specifications onto somebody's desk in Germany or elsewhere when it is needed, it will lose business.

This small company in Magheracloone in County Monaghan has worked extremely hard to reach its current position. It wants to use modern technology but cannot because the systems are not available. We were discussing this on the way to the company office but the issue that caused the company's owner even greater concern was this Bill. He has to travel to the UK, Germany and other countries to promote his product but, if this Bill becomes law, he will have to sign, as a director, that he is responsible for everything. The Minister is shaking his head, but it is important that he makes this clear in the Bill. This is a genuine example of somebody who dreads the Bill's provisions. I have not fully digested its provisions and neither had this company owner because he is so busy dealing with the other aspects of his business.

We will make that clear.

That is most important. He and his wife run the business. They employ approximately 40 people, depending on production levels.

A couple of miles down the road from that company, a young man set up his own company in his father's farmyard. He moved from that to a small industrial estate in Carrickmacross. He built a new factory, for which he received no grant aid. The first imposition he faced was a rates bill of €8,500. He, too, is extremely worried about how he could possibly know the more than 400 regulations with which he must comply. They range from environment to transport. We must ensure that businesses such as this do not have too many impositions put on them as a result of trying to tackle major blackguardism by people in a different area.

When I was involved with farm organisations, I visited the then Minister for Agriculture to discuss the Finance Bill at that time. Under the Bill, farmers would have had to produce audited accounts. The Minister said he would not worry about that; that he is an auditor and it is not a big job to do that. That was the attitude to accountancy in years gone by. We need to change it and whatever mechanisms are necessary should be put in place. However, they should not be over the top for small businesses.

Recently, I have had to deal with a number of clients who made a few pounds during the 1980s and were advised by their banks' staff to invest their money elsewhere. Tax levels here were high and interest rates were higher elsewhere. These ordinary people came to my office in desperation. They will have to pay an accountant a large sum of money to reconcile their books and show how much interest and penalties they owe. However, they were innocent parties. They were doing what they were advised to do, although I accept that these matters need to be tightened up.

The other issue I wish to deal with is community schemes. Other Members have mentioned this previously. Communities are being asked to provide all sorts of accounts and it is costing them a fortune. Some small groups have to pay up to €6,000 to have their accounts prepared. In the farming sector, up to this year it was possible to fill a simple 111 or 112 form and have it accepted. That has now become an extremely detailed form. We must be careful not to go over the top and expect small businesses in industry, farming or other sectors to comply with legislation that is directed at other people.

I understand that the figure covered by the legislation is in the region of €370,000. In Northern Ireland the figure is much higher. People in the Border areas have suffered a great deal of trauma over the last number of years. Could these figures not be arrived at on an all-island basis so that people in the South will not have to meet criteria at a lower or different level from people in the North? I understand the figure in the North is £1 million while the figure in the Republic is €370,000, although I am open to correction. There is cross-Border agreement on tourism and in other sectors. It is important to have a similar structure on both sides of the Border in order that we do not create an impediment that will force people to create jobs north of the Border rather than south. I am aware of one good business in the south Monaghan area that was anxious to build a second factory in the county. It opted for Enniskillen instead.

Debate adjourned.
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