Other Questions Local Authority Housing.

Bernard Allen

Ceist:

6 Mr. Allen asked the Minister for the Environment Heritage and Local Government the proportion of new or existing local authority lettings which have been allocated to people in emergency accommodation throughout the country in the three year period since this commitment was made in Homelessness - An Integrated Strategy; the alterations which have been made in the schemes of letting priority approved by each housing authority under section 11 of the Housing Act 1988; the way in which these reflect the housing needs of people who are homeless as directed in section 9 of the Housing Act 1988 in view of the 2002 housing need assessment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23474/03]

Seán Crowe

Ceist:

57 Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for the Environment Heritage and Local Government the proportion of new or existing local authority lettings which have been allocated to people in emergency accommodation throughout the country in the three year period since this commitment was made in Homelessness - An Integrated Strategy; the alterations which have been made in the schemes of letting priority approved by each housing authority under section 11 of the Housing Act 1988; the way in which these reflect the housing needs of people who are homeless as directed in section 9 of the Housing Act 1988, in view of the 2002 housing need assessment; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23533/03]

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (Mr. N. Ahern):

I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 57 together.

Under section 9 of the Housing Act 1988 local authorities are required to identify persons who are homeless as a specific category when assessing need for housing. The results of their most recent assessment of needs, undertaken in March 2002, have been published in my Department's annual housing statistics bulletin.

The adoption of schemes of letting priorities setting out the criteria for the eligibility of individuals for local authority housing is a reserved function of the elected members. It is the case that schemes of letting priorities generally give additional points or priority recognition for persons who are homeless. The allocation of local authority housing is a matter for individual local authorities having regard to the terms of schemes of letting priorities.

While my Department publishes the number of first time lettings in the annual housing statistics bulletin, comprehensive details of the number of lettings to specific categories such as homeless persons are not available in the Department. I am however aware that significant progress has been made in housing homeless persons. Current indications are that in the three-year period ending in December 2003, approximately 1,400 homeless persons will have been housed in the functional areas of the four Dublin local authorities by the authorities themselves, voluntary housing associations and the Threshold access housing unit. Significant progress has also been made in the provision of emergency and move-on accommodation and day care facilities.

The proposed introduction of an integrated housing IT system for local authorities and the LINK data system being piloted in the Dublin area will facilitate the effective collection of housing data in the future.

Mr. Allen:

I tabled this question because despite the unprecedented prosperity of the past ten years, one can walk around the streets in the immediate vicinity of Dáil Éireann and see more and more homeless people in the doorways, side by side with the plush restaurants that have sprung up in recent years. I find it incredible that the Minister for State, in response to my question, admitted in this House that he does not have the figures of percentage allocations made by local authorities, that are obligatory under the integrated strategy. Does the Minister agree with me that the fact that the Department has not collected data on allocations is an absolutely negligent act? Will the Minister embark immediately on the task of getting the information in order that we can assess the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the strategy? The Minister is saying that he has a strategy but does not know how it is working.

Mr. N. Ahern:

Huge progress has been made in the area of housing and looking after the homeless in recent years. According to the figures, most homeless people are located in the Dublin area. Approximately 1,400 people off the homeless list—

Mr. Allen:

How many are on the streets at the moment?

Mr. N. Ahern:

If anyone believes the figures, there are approximately 5,500 people, involving in the region of 3,700 households, on homeless lists in the country.

Mr. Allen:

The Minister of State does not believe the figures.

Mr. N. Ahern:

No, I do not. There is huge doubt in that area.

Mr. Stagg:

Shame.

Mr. N. Ahern:

There is huge doubt.

Mr. Durkan:

How then can the Minister of State's Department do anything about the problem?

An Ceann Comhairle:

I request Deputies not to interrupt. The purpose of Question Time is to elicit information from the Minister. Deputies will be allowed to ask their questions without interruption. The Chair has an obligation to ensure that Ministers are afforded the same courtesy. I ask the Deputies to allow the Minister of State to answer without interruption.

Mr. N. Ahern:

Huge progress has been made in looking after the homeless in recent years. In money terms, the expenditure has increased from something like the equivalent of €12.5 million in 1999 to €43 million last year, with a figure of about €50 million expected this year. There are some 3,700 households on the homeless list. Approximately 1,400 homeless people have been housed in the Dublin area, directly from the homeless list.

There is a doubt about the number of people on the homeless list. Even in the Dublin area, where most of the homeless are located, there are 1,450 homeless households. When one goes to try to find those people, fewer than 400 are looking for any form of homeless service. It is obvious that many people with different local authorities sign on as homeless, and perhaps are homeless at that time, but the data is not updated correctly, and these people are not coming forward as homeless, or using homeless services. This is why the Department is sponsoring the installation of an IT system to supply proper comprehensive data, so that those on the homeless list can be tracked.

Mr. Morgan:

In view of his scepticism about the homelessness figures, is the Minister aware of how these people are actually counted as homeless? Is he aware that for example if two people from the corporation walk around, shining lights in doorways, and see two people, one of whom happens to be sitting up perhaps having a cigarette while the other is sleeping, then only one of those people is counted as homeless? The person sitting up is not deemed homeless. Perhaps that is the reason the Minister of State is out of touch with the real figures on homelessness. Does he accept that local authorities blatantly discriminate against single homeless people? Is he aware that fewer than half of those officially deemed homeless appear on local authority waiting lists and that, as a consequence, many of them will never have the opportunity of getting a house through the system?

Mr. N. Ahern:

People regularly confuse those registered with local authorities as homeless and those sleeping rough. If 5,500 people are registered as homeless, the number sleeping rough is, at most, 300.

Mr. Morgan:

They are in dormitories.

Mr. N. Ahern:

Those who seek out homeless persons are not civil servants or departmental officials but outreach workers who know where to find these people. They found only 130 of them. They go out at quiet times of the morning between 3 a.m. and 5 a.m. They do not go out on Friday or Saturday nights. To say that these people do not know where to find homeless persons and that one does not count as homeless when awake or walking is a red herring.

Mr. Morgan:

Would the Minister of State live in a dormitory?

An Ceann Comhairle:

Please allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Mr. N. Ahern:

There are approximately 130 homeless people in County Dublin. That is 130 too many. What is the Deputy asking? Is he saying that homeless people should be given priority for all local authority housing that comes available? Approximately one in four, 30%, of housing which becomes available is given to homeless people.

As public representatives we have all met people in our clinics who complain that the only way to obtain a house is to render oneself homeless and jump the queue. That is the view on the ground. I am a little amused by the Deputy's question. What is the Deputy seeking? Does he wish all accommodation which becomes available to be given to people on the homeless list?

Mr. Morgan:

I want the Minister of State to provide them with houses.

Mr. N. Ahern:

Is he encouraging people to take their name off the points list and get on to the homeless list in order to have their case dealt with quicker?

An Ceann Comhairle:

There are four Deputies offering. I will take a brief question from each of them, time permitting.

Mr. Gilmore:

Is the Minister of State, as the Minister with responsibility for housing, not ashamed that after six and a half years in Government, the richest period in the history of this State, there are now more homeless people in this country than before it took office? After 15 months in office, if he is not about to tell this House how many homeless people there are and identify the size of the problem – he wrongly claims that approximately 430 people are sleeping rough in Dublin when the collective agencies set the figure at 5,500 – should he not resign? Is he seriously telling this House that he has not been able to grasp the size of the problem having spent 15 months in office? Everyone involved in voluntary organisations is capable of giving him that information.

Mr. Allen:

I asked a straightforward question. Can the Minister of State give me figures on new or existing tenancies allocated to those in emergency accommodation? Is that percentage in line with the commitment given in Homelessness – An Integrated Strategy? That is a simple question. I did not mention the word "homeless" in my contribution. I referred only to those in emergency accommodation.

Mr. Cuffe:

Two serious issues are emerging from this. One is whether we can rely on figures and if they are correct. We appear to have far better statistics on cattle than we do in regard to homelessness. If the Minister of State does not accept or queries the figures he is given, should he not put pressure on the Central Statistics Office to provide more reliable statistics so we can better assess the problem?

The second issue arises from the Minister of State's assertion that spending on homelessness has increased significantly in recent years. Will he agree that the vast bulk of this increased spending has gone to landlords who provide emergency bed and breakfast accommodation and that very little of the €50 million is being spent on capital projects to directly support the homeless?

Mr. Durkan:

I am appalled at the Minister of State's admission that he does not accept the figures made available to his Department. How does he propose to resolve the housing crisis when he does not accept the statistics made available to him? Why should he rely on such figures anyway? The Minister of State's Department is charged under the Housing Acts with looking after housing and he has failed.

An Ceann Comhairle:

The Deputy must ask a question.

Mr. Durkan:

I know the Minister of State's predecessor left him with a one-off legacy. I thought, as incoming Minister, he would do something about it. The Minister of State has done nothing. What new initiatives does he intend to take to address this serious and escalating problem? This problem is not going to go away.

Mr. N. Ahern:

On Deputy Cuffe's question, much of the money referred to was spent in the provision of emergency accommodation and yes there are landlords involved. They provide emergency accommodation which may not be the long-term answer but it is the short-term one.

Deputy Allen's question refers back to the specific point. Agencies in Dublin set themselves a rough target – it is not a firm commitment in any strategy – of trying to give 30% of their allocations to homeless people or those in emergency accommodation. They are not reaching their target, the current figure is 26% or 27%, but they are close to it. How high would one like them to go? I note the questions asked are identical and from people in very opposite parties. These questions are coming from a specific quarter that is particularly interested in people living in emergency accommodation. We are looking at things in the round. We know that local authorities cannot allocate houses to homeless people alone. Many people in my area have been on the waiting list for years. Some 27% of housing in my local authority area is allocated to the homeless and 20% is allocated to the priority or medical category. We will soon reach the stage where people will realise there is little point going on the points list because one will be jumped by everyone else. We have to divide up our accommodation in a fair way and ensure all categories of people receive accommodation. It is difficult to get a balance between the homeless and those on the medical, welfare and general points system.

The target for Dublin for providing accommodation for the homeless is set at 30% and we are nearing that figure. On the other points, Deputies are simply throwing abuse at me and not listening. I tried to answer those questions earlier. There has been an enormous increase in the resources being spent on the homeless, from €12 million four years ago, to €40 million today.

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht - Thursday, 16 Oct 2003