Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Oct 2003

Vol. 572 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 17 motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a Council Regulation on the law applicable to non-contractual obligations (Rome II) (back from committee); No. 18, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Health Act 1970 (section 76) Simpson's Hospital Estate Act (Amendment) Order 2003, back from committee; No. 19, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Freedom of Information Act 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations 2003; No. 20, motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the International Treaty on Plant Genetic Resources for Food and Agriculture; No. 21, motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Cartagena Protocol to the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity; No 26, Oil Pollution of the Sea (Civil Liability and Compensation)(Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 3, Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Powers and Functions) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders that: Nos. 17 to 21, inclusive, shall be decided without debate; the Report and Final Stages of No. 26 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources; Private Members' business shall be No. 4 – Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage and the proceedings on Second Stage thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 22 October 2003.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 17 to 21, inclusive, without debate agreed to?

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Chief Whip for providing a brief note on the meaning of these motions. Could that be followed with a simple paragraph as to whether or not the committee discussed these matters and, if so, what did it say about them? For instance, in the case of Simpson's Hospital which Deputy Rabbitte referred to as being for poor, decayed, blind and gouty men, the House does not know what the committee thought of this or what it said in discussion. There is nothing in the Chief Whip's note to that effect. I thank the Chief Whip for providing Opposition Deputies with these explanatory notations but I request that she follows that with a simple paragraph as to the committee's opinion of the referral.

Mr. Stagg

The Order of Business today requires the House to take Nos. 17 to 21, inclusive, in one block and they are very different. There was a discussion earlier about Dáil reform and certainly this is badly in need of reform. There is no connection between Nos. 17 and 18. As Deputy Kenny said, No. 18 is about blind, gouty, decayed and poor men, and now includes women as well. No. 17 is about the non-contractual obligations of Rome II, back from committee. They bear no relationship to each other and the House is being asked to take them together.

In the same breath, the House is being asked to take three other motions of referral to committee. There might be some sense in grouping together the referring of some matters to committee but for the House to make decisions on them together when they come back from committee makes a nonsense of the whole procedure.

We discussed this at the Whips' meeting and I understood that there would be a short report from the committee to the Dáil on foot of the discussion that had taken place and the decision made by the committee. It is quite extraordinary that the House is now being asked to take these motions together without any report being available. That is not what we were told would occur.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Deputy's first question about taking the proposals together, a proposal grouping one or more items of business in one proposal is in order when the proposed arrangement to be followed is the same for all items. The proposal in this case is that the House takes all items without debate. The items can be voted on separately when put before the House after the Order of Business. It should be borne in mind that a proposal on the Order of Business is a narrow procedural motion making arrangements for debate and nothing else. The proposal is a motion put forward by Government and is in accordance with precedent.

Mr. R. Bruton

I wish to make a point of order. If a party wishes to oppose one of these items that have been grouped together, is the Ceann Comhairle ruling that the party must vote to oppose that without having the opportunity to express to our colleagues whose support we seek in that vote our reason for taking that position? I can see that no parliamentary approach to proper responsible debating would agree to such an order. If we want to oppose one of these items, we should have a brief opportunity to express our view. The bundling together of these items is a deliberate attempt by the Government to prevent such opportunities.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Mr. R. Bruton

It is contrary to the proper running of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The proposal is a motion put forward by the Government and is in accordance with precedent.

Mr. Sargent

On behalf of my party I welcome the breakthrough and the agreement that an election is to be held in Northern Ireland on 26 November. This is such an important issue it is essential that all pro-Agreement parties recognise the common cause they share and that they co-operate and co-ordinate the advocacy of the Agreement so there is not a victory for anti-Agreement forces. I ask the Government to allow time for a debate in the House on the situation in Northern Ireland to allow Members have an informed participation in that process.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this time.

Mr. Sargent

I wish to speak about the Order of Business and the taking together of Nos. 17 to 21, inclusive. I understand the Ceann Comhairle's ruling about procedures. I disagree because two of these motions are referrals back from committee and three are being referred to committee. I ask the Ceann Comhairle to recognise that they are quite different.

An Ceann Comhairle

They can be dealt with separately when the time comes.

Mr. Sargent

I disagree with the referral of Nos. 20 and 21 to committee on the basis that the House has not had a full debate on genetically modified technology since the tests in the UK have demonstrated that the idea of co-existence between genetically modified and conventional organic crops is a nonsense. It is a fallacy put out by the biotechnology industry. We need to debate this in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House cannot discuss the content of the motion.

Mr. Sargent

We need to.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Under No. 17 on the Order of Business, the House is being asked to approve Government participation in the nego tiation of the final draft of an EU resolution covering the area of non-contractual obligations. I understand that it was afforded about half an hour of discussion by committee. From the information I have gleaned, the Minister concerned did not outline exactly the Government's position on the upcoming negotiation. This is an important development that will have significant effects in a range of areas such as the interests of consumers, business and the private citizen. Article 12F specifies that non-contractual obligations arising out of nuclear damage will be excluded.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, the House cannot discuss the contents of the proposed motion.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Please, a Cheann Comhairle, there is no other means of highlighting that there are so many important and critical areas—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another means.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

—that this House will not have the opportunity to have an impact on Government thinking in its approach to negotiations that lie ahead. A significant domestic democratic deficit arises as a result of this failure to find a formulation that will accommodate proper scrutiny of EU regulation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I appeal to the Tánaiste and the Chief Whip to take on board my concerns and those of my colleagues.

The Tánaiste

On the matters referred to, the Chief Whip informs me that there are ongoing negotiations with the committees about reporting back to the House. This has been under consideration for some time with the committee clerks and others. Virtually all those who spoke on this matter are committee members and I am sure they are as well informed as I am.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We are trying to be.

The Tánaiste

Regarding Deputy Ó Caoláin's question, the Government is seeking the approval of the Dáil in supporting the regulations in question. We are talking about a procedural matter, in that we are either taking things back from committee or sending them to committee. That is why they have all been grouped together. As the Ceann Comhairle indicated, they will all be voted on separately, which will give Deputies an opportunity to support them or not.

Mr. Stagg

Is the Tánaiste saying there is no need for committees to report back?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this stage.

Question, "That Nos. 17 to 21, inclusive, be taken without debate," put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

We now move on to the proposal for dealing with No. 26, conclusion of Report and Final Stages of the Oil Pollution of the Sea (Civil Liability and Compensation) (Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad]. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' Business agreed? Agreed.

Ms O. Mitchell

I want to ask about the European Working Time Directive for hospital doctors which has been delayed due to the delay in the publication of the Hanly report. Now that the report is out, it is essential that plans are put in place for the implementation of the directive. What legislative changes are planned to transpose the directive into law? Can it be done by regulation or does it require a new Act? If so, when can we expect it? If it is to be done by regulation, will we have a chance to discuss it in the Dáil?

The Tánaiste

It does not require legislation. The Minister for Health and Children will inform the Deputy of the precise way in which it will be done. The Working Time Directive is a matter for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. The manner in which we intend to implement this will be communicated to the Deputy in due course but it does not require any primary legislation.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Tánaiste is probably aware of a dispute involving a company called Greenstar that has, disgracefully, been allowed to continue for five and a half months. Arising from discussions with the social partners, is it her understanding that legislation is promised on trade union recognition?

The Tánaiste

The Deputy should be aware that legislation on this matter has, in fact, been published. I understand it will be debated in the House shortly.

Mr. Rabbitte

It does not cover the situation—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the content of legislation.

Mr. Rabbitte

—to which I referred. Is that the only promised legislation pertaining to this area?

The Tánaiste

If the Deputy is asking whether trade unions will be recognised, which is what I think he is asking, that is not the case. No legislation is promised in that regard.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Bill does not provide for the right of representation.

Mr. Kenny

The House is due to hear the usual statements tomorrow on matters arising from the Intergovernmental Council meeting last week. While I do not have the latest information on what is happening regarding Northern Ireland business, can I take it that we will be in a position to have a full debate on it in the House? Depending on the circumstances as they unfold, I hope that everybody will be able to speak in a positive manner about the holding of elections on 26 November and the possibility of the heralding of a new dawn for the entire island. Assuming that all goes well, will the necessary flexibility be provided for a real discussion in the House?

The Tánaiste

The Government is anxious to have a debate in the House, perhaps tomorrow, if that is in order with the Deputies opposite. The Chief Whip will be in discussion with the other party Whips on this matter.

Mr. Sargent

I, too, support the call for a debate and hope it will happen tomorrow.

Will the Government bring forth primary legislation to deal with the void which the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has acknowledged exists in connection with EU Directive 2002/20/EC? This relates to price rises in services such as that provided by Chorus and the failure to deliver on any quantifiable increase in quality? Will the Minister promise to deliver this legislation?

An Ceann Comhairle

The question must relate to promised legislation.

Mr. Sargent

It has been promised in correspondence, but does not appear on the list. Is it awaited?

The Tánaiste

I understand that no legislation is promised in this area.

Mr. Sargent

The Department is promising it.

Ms McManus

We were promised that the national treatment purchase fund would be put on a statutory footing. Now that it is clear that money has been pilfered away from the waiting lists initiative by health boards from patients who need care, for other uses, when is it intended to put the national treatment purchase fund on a statutory footing and can we have the waiting lists initiative included in that statute?

An Ceann Comhairle

Questions on the content of legislation are not appropriate.

The Tánaiste

Legislation is promised in this area. I presume it will be done in connection with the legislation required to address the proposed reforms in the health service. The treatment purchase fund is one of the bodies that will remain in existence. As the Deputy is aware, it has been highly successful and cost-effective. I do not know when the legislation will be before the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Fahey, recently indicated that he is conducting a review of community employment schemes. Does the Tánaiste anticipate that legislation will be required on foot of the review and, in the interim period, would she not consider restoring the places that—

An Ceann Comhairle

The second question does not arise.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

—she savagely cut over the past 12 months, particularly to communities and people with disabilities?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste should only answer the question on promised legislation.

The Tánaiste

No legislation is promised in this area.

Mr. G. Mitchell

The role of the Joint Committee on European Affairs is to scrutinise legislation on behalf of both Houses. Is it intended to comply with the committee's request not to support a decision by the Council of Ministers on embryo research until the scrutiny procedure has been completed so that the Government is informed of the views of the Oireachtas? A report is before the House from the sub-committee in regard to this matter.

The Tánaiste

No legislation is promised in this area. As the Deputy is aware, the moratorium under existing legislation ends at the end of this year. Failure to reach a decision at the forthcoming Competitiveness Council would mean that the moratorium would end in December. I understand there has been a request for discussion at the committee and I am happy to facilitate that request.

Mr. Gilmore

I asked the Tánaiste some two weeks ago about planning legislation arising from the Taoiseach's comments in Sligo on one-off rural housing. She indicated that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is preparing a new planning Bill. When I subsequently asked the Taoiseach about the same issue, he informed me that there was a separate Bill to deal with the promised infrastructure board, from which I gathered that there are two items of legislation being prepared by Government, a planning Bill and a Bill dealing with the infrastructure board.

When I asked the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government about this, he informed me that a Bill is due in regard to the infrastructure board and no legislation is envisaged to deal with one-off rural housing. Will the Tánaiste clarify how many planning Bills are being prepared by Government, what they are for and whether there is proposed legislation to deal with the issue of one-off rural housing, about which the Taoiseach spoke in Sligo? The Minister told me on Thursday that there would be no legislation on one-off rural housing. Instead, there will be legislation on the infrastructure board. Will there be legislation on one-off rural housing?

An Ceann Comhairle

Has legislation been promised?

The Tánaiste

There is a Bill promised on infrastructure. The Minister tells me that if he requires new powers by way of primary legislation on one-off housing, the matter will be dealt with in that Bill.

Mr. Stagg

To do what?

The Tánaiste

If not, it may well be dealt with by way of regulations.

Mr. Stagg

To do what?

The Tánaiste

To provide for people to get houses.

Mr. Cullen

To do what the Labour Party does not want to do – provide homes for people who need them.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should allow Deputy Boyle to speak.

Mr. Cullen

It is a big island. It is not all Dublin.

An Ceann Comhairle

Minister, please.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

We can wave goodbye to tourists.

Mr. Rabbitte

Whenever the Taoiseach makes a promise, we know nothing will happen.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Boyle.

Mr. Boyle

We have already seen the danger of one-off planning legislation with the Government. In relation to the National Infrastructure Board, does the Government intend to engage in a process of consultation prior to the drafting of the heads of the Bill and the presentation of the legislation to the House given the unhappiness expressed by the chairman of An Bord Pleanála?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a parliamentary question to the appropriate Minister.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Will this involve consultation?

Mr. Durkan

Last week the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform informed me that there were 17 major criminal gangs operating in the greater Dublin area. The drug offenders Bill appears to be stalled. I wonder if, in view of the pressing need to deal with matters to which it relates, it might be possible to apply some urgency to it.

The Tánaiste

I understand work on the Bill is at a preliminary stage and that it is not possible to provide a firm publication date.

Mr. Durkan

In view of the urgency—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow Deputy James Breen to speak.

Mr. J. Breen

Does the Tánaiste intend to get rid of the Hanly report by recycling, incineration or sending it to a landfill site? That is what should be done with it because it is rubbish. The Minister for Health and Children has failed to bring meaningful legislation on the health service before the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order and will have to find another way to raise the matter.

Mr. J. Breen

How will the Tánaiste get rid of it? It is rubbish.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly and should allow Deputy Crowe to speak.

The Tánasite

I will send it to the Houses.

Mr. Rabbitte

The last thing we need is for it to be recycled.

Mr. Crowe

In view of the difficulties many communities have experienced in regard to the sale of so-called company cars to minors, is legislation promised in this area?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter has already been dealt with today.

The Tánaiste

Before Deputy Crowe came to the House, Deputy Rabbitte raised that point. I said I would put the suggestion he made to my colleague with responsibility in the area.