Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Nov 2003

Vol. 573 No. 3

Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach said in this House on 2 July 1996 that the time for rhetoric, slick sound bites and empty promises was past. He said it was time for action and for us to set out in a reflective and calculated way what we intended to do about organised crime. He said the time for reviews, reports and surveys was over; that it was time for considered action. He and his Government have been in office for six and a half of the seven years since those words were uttered. He has had the time and resources to follow them through.

The rule of law seems to have been abdicated and the rule of criminal gangs is worse than ever. We are now told that 30 warring gangs rule Dublin city and that the cost of a life or death is €5,000. We see trials collapsing because of the intimidation of witnesses and young men being brutally murdered as a warning to others. The Garda Commissioner in his recent attendance at the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights said the force had not been given adequate resources to tackle organised crime. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has failed in his duty to properly administer justice. His predecessor failed to deliver on his commitment to zero tolerance.

The Government, under the Taoiseach's direction, has been an abject failure in the administration of the oldest reason Government was formed, namely, the administration of justice. Will the Taoiseach take personal responsibility and show leadership in dealing with this direct challenge to him, his Government and the State? Organised crime must not rule this country. The Taoiseach must show personal responsibility and ensure the resources required by the Garda Síochána are made available to it to protect our citizens and administer justice.

The Taoiseach

Crime is an enormous issue as reflected in the resources dedicated to tackling it in terms of manpower, technology, prison construction and infrastructural facilities. There have been major reductions in levels of crime in recent years, including this year. However, there are still criminal gangs operating in our society, engaging mainly in drug-related activities. The Government is conscious of this and has enforced some of the toughest laws ever, to the extent that those involved in civil liberties groups have been dubious about them. In spite of this, in the area of criminal law, among others, we continue to put laws on the Statute Book and provide the necessary resources to implement them.

For a number of months we have been putting in place manned Garda resources to deal with crime in parts of this city, the names of which there is no need to mention. Our efforts in Limerick city have received a huge amount of media attention. I sympathise with the family of Mr. Eric Leamy because of the difficulty in which they find themselves. I cannot talk about the issues involved in great detail but the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will deal with them later today.

The Government discussed this matter at length today, as it has many times. We are not prepared to tolerate gangs, drug barons and other criminals. Since 1997 the Government has been tough in dealing with this issue. There is no need for me to give a litany of the extra resources, including policing resources, provided but we spent almost €1 billion. We will continue to be tough on crime. Some are trying to put it up to the Government and the people. We must and will take action against this.

Mr. Kenny

On 12 November 1996 the Taoiseach commented in this House: "Confidence in the administration of justice is therefore equivalent to confidence in Government." Does he believe the people of the country over which he presides have confidence in the way his Government administers justice? Does he believe the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is a success? Is he not the Taoiseach who, with the Progressive Democrats, promised 2,000 extra gardaí on the streets? Do we not hear gardaí, from the Commissioner down, say every day they need extra resources to carry out the investigative work required to bring criminal gangs before the courts of the land? Were we not promised that administration of justice would be fundamental to the kind of Government the Taoiseach would run?

Last year saw the country's highest ever number of homicides. There were 13 gangland killings in the first half of this year. We can talk all we want about the resources being deployed – for six years we have been flinging money at problems but the action our citizens need is not being taken. People need to know that when they close their doors at night, they are safe. Gardaí themselves tell us they are not being given the resources they need. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform talks about all the laws he is introducing but they are not being effective. There are people in inner-city Dublin and parts of Limerick who are terrorised by organised crime on the streets. The Taoiseach must take personal responsibility for ensuring his Government pushes back the wave of crime about which he spoke in November 1996.

The Taoiseach

That is what the Government has been doing since.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Not very well.

The Taoiseach

The figures reflect this. We stated at the time that perpetrators would be brought to justice by the Garda, their cases would be dealt with expeditiously by the courts and there would be enough prison spaces to ensure their sentences were served. We set about bringing Garda numbers to a record high level and building the prisons that were not in place. We dealt with the revolving door syndrome. We brought forward the tough legislation necessary—

Mr. Allen

There is no enforcement.

The Taoiseach

—although many were dubious about it and wanted it to remain for only a short period on the Statute Book. We will continue to do these things and from wherever the threat comes, we will deal with it.

In Limerick and Dublin there are only a handful of problem areas. Resources have been dedicated. In some areas of Limerick whole estates have been closed down for weeks on end with everybody moving in and out being searched, at huge inconvenience to the law-abiding public. In parts of this city there have been enormous efforts by the Garda to deal with criminals and many have been apprehended. There is a deeply evil group of individuals—

Mr. Allen

We know that.

The Taoiseach

—who will stop at nothing to prevent others from giving evidence. I cannot say too much but we know what is happening.

Mr. Allen

One is not even safe in the Four Courts now – one is intimidated.

The Taoiseach

There are people who think they are above the law. It is for the Government to deal with this.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Where are the 2,000 extra gardaí?

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

If this requires additional legislation, we will introduce it. I hope the House will be helpful to us later when the Minister mentions some of our suggestions. As I recall, whenever tough legislation has been brought forward in the House, whether in the mid-eighties or the mid-nineties or more recently, people—

Mr. Allen

We do not need legislation any more.

The Taoiseach

We need tougher legislation. Legislation alone will not deal with the problem but we have provided the resources.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Why did the Government welsh on its promise to provide extra gardaí?

The Taoiseach

I do not accept that these problems are the result of a lack of resources. In these areas we have pumped in enormous amounts of money and manpower to deal with crime levels.

Mr. Allen

That is not what the Commissioner said.

Ms O'Sullivan

The Government has not pumped Garda resources into Limerick.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Sullivan, please allow Deputy Rabbitte to put his question.

Mr. Rabbitte

How can the Taoiseach reconcile his last statement about focusing on resources and sitting on serious criminals with the statement of Garda Paul Browne in October's edition of Garda Review: “There are days in Limerick city when there are no members available to go out on the beat”? I am quite happy for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to brief the Taoiseach if he wants to.

Mr. D. Ahern

He is entitled to do so.

Mr. Rabbitte

Absolutely but it is a little late. Can the Taoiseach take issue with any single statistic mentioned by Deputy Kenny? Is this not a shameful legacy from the era of zero tolerance instigated by the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform?

Mr. Allen

The Kerry joker.

Mr. McDowell

That is the fault of the Deputy's selective memory.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is everything Deputy Kenny said not true? Is this not a policing problem rather than a need for more laws? The problem is that existing laws are not being enforced. An Agreed Programme for Government, published in June 2002, states the Government stands for a society in which "people can feel safe in their communities, business and homes". The Taoiseach said Fianna Fáil in government would commit even more resources to tackling crime and breaking up the gangs involved in serious crime. They are multiplying by the day. According to a television programme last night, there are 40 gangs operating in this city alone. Is it not time to demonstrate political determination and leadership and take on the gangs which are controlling communities and forcing law-abiding citizens to live under their rule? What happened to the commitment the Government made to recruit 2,000 additional gardaí? A net amount of 51 gardaí have been recruited since June 2002. What kind of response is this to the problems outlined here?

The Taoiseach

I wish it was as easy as that. Deputy Rabbitte says policing is the issue. For the case that sparked these questions in Limerick the Garda has put together an excellent prosecution case. It did a fine job, on which I congratulate it. The problem in this case was interference with witnesses. Let us not forget this. The article quoted by the Deputy, which the Minister has pointed out to me, goes on to state that so many resources were moved into this area in Limerick there were fewer resources available for law-abiding areas. The same has happened in this city.

Mr. Allen

That is not enough.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked about the extra gardaí. We have recruited 1,100 or 1,200 extra gardaí into the force and we have to pay for them every year. That is why almost €1 billion is spent on justice. We provided for over 1,000 extra prison places. We have brought in additional laws and we have to continue to do that. We cannot stop reviewing, reforming and examining the issues. If it is a question of laws, resources and the dedication of the gardaí, we will continue to do that. Over the past few years we have taken many of the criminals on our streets out of circulation. Many of them are in jail serving long sentences but a new breed is coming up, many of whom are very young, and we now have to deal with those issues. We are doing that and the taxpayer is putting in almost €1 billion a year to deal with it. We have to do that in a way that deals with a new type of young criminal who is vicious and extraordinarily ruthless. Some of them are quite close to subversives in this country.

Mr. Rabbitte

Sometimes when I hear the Taoiseach answering I do not know whether we live in the same country. I did not make a comment on how the book of evidence was compiled or the reason the Director of Public Prosecutions felt unable to give the direction other than the one he gave.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy said it was a policing issue.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am talking about policing and the Taoiseach pledged 2,000 additional gardaí, but there are 51 additional gardaí. What is the purpose of the State if it is not for security, both external and internal? There are many areas of our cities under the reign of young thugs who are being directed by new criminal gangs which have been established and which are not capable of being dealt with by the gardaí because they either do not have not the manpower or the resources. This is the legacy of zero tolerance. What is the answer to the question about additional gardaí?

When the tragedy occurred concerning Veronica Guerin, the Government of the day decided to make whatever legislative change and resources were necessary to deal with the break up of the gangs that dominated this city at that time. The same is required here. If we could bring in an amendment to the Offences Against the State Act in 1998, following the atrocity in Omagh, that created the crime of directing terrorist crime, why can we not create a similar offence in terms of those who direct criminal conspiracies and combinations? That is the kind of measure that is necessary to deal with this problem. It is not being dealt with and what happened yesterday is shameful in any democracy, especially one governed by a Government that claims to be putting so much emphasis on the administration of justice and enforcement of the law.

The Taoiseach

I do not want to divide this House on the issue of crime because every Member of this House wants to tackle crime, but I want to make three points, one of which is on policing. I was responding to Deputy Rabbitte who said this is an issue of policing. I said it is not in this case because the Garda put together a good case and saturated an area, but it is dealing with very vicious people, there is no doubt about that.

Ms O'Sullivan

It does not have the numbers to cover those areas, and the Taoiseach knows it.

The Taoiseach

On the issue of gardaí, we keep talking about an additional 51 and 100. There are 12,200 gardaí in the country. When we take on 1,100, as we have in the past few years, they do not go away.

Mr. Connaughton

The retired ones do.

The Taoiseach

There are 12,200 in total and the college in Templemore is full so that number is being replaced. We are spending almost €1 billion on this area.

Mr. F. McGrath

Rubbish.

Mr. Connaughton

There are only 51 extra gardaí.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to respond. There is only one leader of the Labour Party and that is Deputy Rabbitte. He is the only one entitled to ask a supplementary on this question.

The Taoiseach

On the issue of criminal justice, Deputy Rabbitte said that we need more legislation, and I agree with that. I brought legislation through this House in 1998 and I stated at the time that we should have tougher legislation. I argued in this House in the mid-1980s that we should have tougher criminal justice legislation but, as always happens, people from the do-gooder society believe we should not have tougher legislation. Let us have tougher legislation, more resources and more gardaí. I agree with that but people should not get weak-kneed on a tough day. I believe in being tough on crime but there were people on the opposite side of the House who stood up here and opposed the provision of extra gardaí because they wanted more rehabilitation programmes – we can name those Members.

Mr. Connaughton

Name them.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Members opposite forget about that.

The Taoiseach

Let us be consistently tough on crime and not just change our minds every day.

Mr. J. Higgins

The courts are not in a position to call alleged murderers to account, but the High Court this morning could send six innocent residents from south Dublin to jail for three weeks and fine them very heavily. Their crime was to participate in a two hour, entirely peaceful protest against the decision of South Dublin County Council to leave uncollected the refuse bins of thousands of householders who are boycotting the bin tax. The Taoiseach might as well have worn the grey wig and banged the door of Mountjoy behind those decent taxpayers because he is responsible for those jailings.

A few months ago the Government brought in this draconian change in legislation allowing county mangers to set out on a scandalous cam paign of blackmailing compliant taxpayers and entire communities by withdrawing a crucial service for which they have paid over a century through central and indirect taxation. The Taoiseach's gutless backbenchers did not utter a peep when this legislation was going through the House. They do not even bother to come into the Dáil any more, but it is the Taoiseach who is responsible for the system that has honest taxpayers banged up in jail within days of a peaceful protest, while years after being found out, corrupt councillors from his party, Ansbacher thieves, strut around with absolute impunity.

If the Taoiseach wants to retrieve even a shred of credibility for the flawed and ailing political system over which he presides, it is in his hands to take action to defuse the current situation. Will he call off the attack on the communities of working people by instructing the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to suspend the bin non-collection order and allow the debate on the bin tax and his local taxation policies to proceed at pace but without thousands of decent men and women being forced to use their peaceful people power in opposition to his draconian policies?

The Taoiseach

I dealt with this issue previously. Nobody is in jail today for peaceful protesting. They are in breach of a court order. They defied the court.

Mr. J. Higgins

They are in jail for peaceful protest but not for murder.

The Taoiseach

That is the reason they are in jail. On the wider issue, I have said previously that direct user charges for household waste collection are widely applied throughout Europe. The polluter pays principle is a requirement of the Waste Management Act. The vast bulk of householders pay the charge for waste collection and disposal. It is the law of the land. It has been passed through the democratic process and it should be respected by all citizens equally. I have no comment to make on the courts but if people do not comply with the order of the courts, the law is handed out to everybody equally.

Mr. J. Higgins

As usual the Taoiseach completely ignored the stark double standards over which his Government presides. Is it not incredible that gardaí say they cannot muster sufficient resources and personnel to prevent the abandonment of a murder trial through naked and brutal intimidation? Working class communities wait hours, if not days, before gardaí respond to their calls but the county and city managers in Dublin can at any time muster endless numbers of gardaí to push and pull at peaceful protesters against the policy of bin non-collection. The gardaí can be freely used to brow-beat and frighten communities into giving up their opposition. Within the suburbs, incredibly, Garda stations are closing down to deal with entirely peaceful protests.

The Taoiseach's Government has turned the standards of a civilised society on its head. The innocent and compliant taxpayers, the lifelong taxpayers who are now contributory pensioners, are being hounded, harassed and jailed because the Taoiseach wants to use the courts and the paraphernalia of the State to force new taxation policies upon them, but millionaire bankers who have organised massive fraud and knife-wielding gangsters are out of reach. The Taoiseach can open the gates of Mountjoy Prison tonight for these decent residents and ensure that nobody else goes in by simply saying to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to instruct the county managers to suspend the non-collection of refuse and to allow the debate to continue. Will he do that in the interests of at least cutting across some of the double standards over which he presides?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy knows the answer so there is no point giving him a long answer because he will accuse me of giving facts he does not want to hear. I cannot open the gates of Mountjoy Prison or anywhere else tonight for people who are in contempt of court.

Mr. J. Higgins

The Taoiseach can.

Mr. D. Ahern

There is the double standard.

Mr. J. Higgins

The Taoiseach can end the stand-off.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Joe Higgins could call off the protesters who are mainly from his party.

Mr. J. Higgins

That is absolute nonsense.

Mr. D. Ahern

Let ordinary people have their refuse collected.

Mr. J. Higgins

The Taoiseach knows that tens of thousands of householders and hundreds of thousands of taxpayers are—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, allow the Taoiseach to speak.

The Taoiseach

Then the debate could continue – I agree with the Deputy on this – on how we try to deal with refuse which has increased enormously in the last number of years. We have a major problem with which to deal. I am sure Deputy Joe Higgins wants to deal with it as well and does not want to see landfill sites and the other difficulties.

Mr. J. Higgins

What has that got to do with my question?

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy could help us to find a solution, then perhaps we could move on and try to deal with the problem.