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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 4 Nov 2003

Vol. 573 No. 3

Private Members' Business. - Hospital Services: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

– aware that after more than six years in office at a time of unprecedented economic growth, the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government has failed to deliver an acute hospital service that meets public need;

– aware that despite the publication in 2002 of the national health strategy and the Brennan and Prospectus reports in June of this year and the promise that hospital waiting lists would be eliminated by May 2004, no fundamental reform of the health service has taken place;

– notes the report of the national task force on medical staffing, the Hanly report;

– believes that equality and ease of access to the highest quality possible of medical care should be a central feature of our hospital service;

– calls for an immediate commitment, as required in the Hanly report, to the provision of and funding for:

– 3,000 additional hospital beds,

– a doubling of hospital consultant numbers to 3,600,

– the establishment of regional speciality self-sufficiency, and

– the upgrading and retraining of emergency medical technicians; and

– further calls for the absolute recognition of the principle that all citizens in every part of the country must have access in reasonable time to world class accident and emergency services.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Howlin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

On 6 May 2002, the Taoiseach promised the people that he would end hospital waiting lists within two years. There are now 184 days remaining for him to make good his promise but, of course, he will not do so. It was never anything other than an outlandish commitment made in bad faith and deliberately perpetrated on the people in the middle of an election.

The extent of that deception is revealed in today's published figures which show that 28,130 patients are still waiting for hospital treatment. These patients have already been forced to wait to see a specialist and they are denied necessary treatment. The only evident change is a slight reduction of a paltry 2% over the figures of the last quarter. By the end of 2002, according to the health strategy, the Government promised that no adult would wait over 12 months for treatment. We are coming to the end of 2003 and 4,252 adults are still waiting over 12 months. The stark reality is that at the rate the Government is delivering, we will have to wait 30 years to abolish hospital waiting lists.

It is worth remembering that the Minister for Health and Children colluded in what was a callous deception, and that deception continues in the health services. The truth is that this and the last Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats coalition have failed abjectly to provide a high quality health service despite unprecedented resources. That is why the Labour Party is proposing this motion. Ours is a challenge to the wasteful, wanton squandering of time and resources which could and should have gone into making patients better instead of making them wait. It is a challenge to the Minister for Health and Children to state clearly how he intends to fund the thousands of beds and hundreds of hospital consultants necessary to improve the health service and make it accessible to patients who are sick and in pain.

Rather than making a difference, the Government has made itself busy with reports and working groups and with consultation and commissions. Management consultants have grown fat while the health service and those working in the front line struggle to overcome Government cutbacks that undermine their patients' care.

Over 140 reports and commissions have been established since Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats took office six years ago. The publication rate of these reports is matched only by their attrition rate. In 2002 the health strategy was launched with great fanfare before the general election but even before its publication, the Minister for Finance informed the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, that no money would be made available for its initiatives. The strategy was launched anyway as it was election year and again the people were made promises the Government knew it would not keep – 200,000 new medical cards, 3,000 new beds, shorter hospital waiting times and new legislation. Each one of these promises has since died a death.

The primary care report was published soon after, but it has been strangulated because of a lack of funding. Recently, the Prospectus and Brennan reports were published and these have been beaten into unconsciousness under the weight of a myriad of committees that are stuffed with health board and Department officials who cannot even decide among themselves who is to chair the meetings.

When it comes to health the Government has displayed an ongoing and long-standing pathological aversion to the truth. The reality with which the public is all too familiar is that Government cutbacks mean fewer home help services and the closure of hundreds of hospital beds. It also means crucial medical equipment cannot be replaced – for example, the cardiac equipment in St. Vincent's Hospital which is so defective that it has failed at least 28 times this year – and hospital waiting lists are as high as ever.

Today, we read in the newspapers that Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children was promised an MRI scanner after years of prevarication, yet it is still waiting. In this case, the truth is that even desperately sick children are being betrayed by unfulfilled ministerial promises.

As public cynicism grows, the Government is trumpeting the latest report, the Hanly report. It offers the promise of a high quality health service with consultant provided care, better training for junior hospital doctors and an end to their ridiculously high working levels resulting from the extension of the EU directive. However, this directive is like a train coming straight at the health care system, according to the president of the Irish Medical Organisation, and he is right. The Hanly report contains major implications that cannot be shredded or binned in the same way as other reports.

The Labour Party and others have argued for a consultant provided service, significantly more hospital consultants, streamlined medical training and resourcing general practice, but they are under no illusions. That the Government is now in agreement with us means little. Unless the Government is committed to investing funds wisely and well, change will come, because it must, but it will be paid for in reduced patient services and greater limits on access rather than in an improved service. Frankly, the prognosis is not good. The Government has promised change but made no commitment on funding, timing and implementation. That is why we tabled this motion.

It is important to note that like all the other reports the Government has published there is the token nod in this one in the direction of equality. We have a two-tier health service unique in Europe in that it discriminates against public patients who end up on waiting lists while private patients are fast-tracked to treatment. Equality is central to real reform. Creating a new basis of equality would bring about a more effective and efficient health service in itself. The Hanly report states that it is important to ensure that all patients, whether public or private, have equal access to services based on clinical need. The report does not mention how this aim might be achieved. As in all other Government reports, lip service is paid to the principle of equality but no action is taken and nothing real is ever done. It too is a form of deception, this kind of tokenism that refers to the great scandal of apartheid in our health service and then proceeds to ignore it.

Hanly has made clear that his report was formulated without political, funding or industrial relations considerations. The rest of us live in a world where these considerations are only too real and we know from bitter experience that Government promises are made to be broken. A weakness in the report is the lack of costings. No cost is given for infrastructural development and there is no mention of costs arising from industrial relations negotiations or from the great investment required in general practice. The only figure relates to increasing hospital consultant numbers. The Minister should spell out the total estimated costs for the implementation of the Hanly report in full. He should also inform us from where the money is to come because it is clear the Minister for Finance is yet again refusing to support his colleague's ambition.

The silence of the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, is notable. It is likely that the Department of Health and Children will only receive €500 million extra funding for next year. The Revised Estimate for 2003 was €7.9 billion. The additional amount would constitute a 6.3% increase. The Secretary General of the Department is on record as saying that it would take €900 million to maintain the current level of service. Taking into account medical inflation and the cost of benchmarking, there is only one conclusion to be reached, namely, that services will be cut next year and not extended.

The most likely outcome from the Hanly report is that the cost cutting elements of it will be implemented and the parts that cost money – the positive agenda – will be ditched. That is the fear people have and it is justified because the funding simply does not add up. What Hanly is proposing is change of seismic proportions. This requires good management and, in particular, skills in change management, but these are not the characteristics that define the Department of Health and Children. The sorry experience of the Brennan report should be a warning to us all.

The Brennan report was published in July of this year. The Minister, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste promised that its implementation would be swift; that it would include the abolition of health boards and bring about major efficiency in the health service; and that the implementation body would be set up in mid-October, as would the shadow HSE. Instead the process is bogged down in a total of 14 committees and there is still no independent person appointed to drive the reform for which Brennan argued so trenchantly. Health boards meanwhile are merrily adding numbers to their staffing complement, even though they are supposed to be cutting back. Since the July date when the Minister for Health and Children announced their abolition, health boards in the ERHA area alone have recruited 232 new temporary staff and ten new permanent staff. Is it any wonder that Niamh Brennan is scathing in her criticism?

I ask the Minister for Health to state how he intends to meet the deadline of August 2004, as defined in the EU directive. According to a rough estimate almost 1,000 new non-consultant hospital doctors would be required by that date to comply with the EU directive. Since Hanly rightly rejects that solution, we need to hear from the Minister how many new consultants will be in place on that date. The loss of 75,000 medical working hours cannot simply be made up by new rostering arrangements and cross-cover.

We need to hear from him too the planned timetable for industrial relations negotiations in relation to both NCHDs' and the consultants' contracts. Already difficulties have arisen because the employers have not resolved the ongoing disagreement over rosters still in place in some hospitals. This is causing problems in setting up new negotiations.

It is incredible that the Department of Health and Children refused to begin negotiations before now, considering the tight deadline which confronts it. I understand that in March of this year the IMO wrote to the Department to seek a meeting and was told that nothing would happen until Hanly was published, yet the Hanly report makes very clear that it would not deal with industrial relations issues at any stage.

The Hanly report, it can be argued, presents a producer-driven, centralised model that ends up suiting consultants rather than patients. One major hospital to serve a population of 350,000 people may make sense in terms of multi-disciplinary teams and providing a range of specialties but there is a sacrifice involved and a cost that has not been counted. The sacrifice is that made by patients who will no longer be able to access accident and emergency services and acute services to which currently they have access. There will in all likelihood be no accident and emergency department between St. Vincent's Hospital in Dublin and Waterford in the ECHB region, for example. According to this proposal every emergency case will be funnelled into the major hospitals. All acute beds will be taken out of the local hospitals but there is not even the reassurance of a commitment to provide additional acute beds in the major hospital.

In the East Coast Health Board region, which is one of the pilot areas, there are hundreds of acute beds in three locations. After Hanly there will be no accident and emergency department or any acute beds in St. Colmcille's or St. Michael's hospitals. The same will be true of Nenagh and Ennis hospitals.

This will create major problems for my constituents in County Wicklow. The distance to St. Colmcille's is already significant for someone living in Shillelagh or Tinahely. I heard Dr. Peter Kelly state that it takes only seven minutes to travel on to St. Vincent's hospital from St. Colmcille's in Loughlinstown. His comment would be met with hilarity and disbelief in Wicklow. Anyone who travels the gridlock that is the N11 would know better. There is a suspicion already that this report is about concentration of services to suit consultants rather than to serve patients, and comments like that only fuel that suspicion.

At present an acute cardiac surgical or medical case can access treatment in these smaller hospitals and thousands of people do, particularly older acute patients for whom a local service is invaluable. This service is to be lost but we have yet to hear of a commitment to enlarge the capacity in the major hospitals. Already the big hospitals are overstretched and unable to cope with demand without going over their budgets

Again let us look at the Government record on delivery. The Minister for Health and Children promised 709 new acute beds. Only 568 beds have been provided by 2002 and some of them have meant taking older beds out of the system. However, there was in that same year a daily average of 269 beds closed. According to the Minister's own figures 23,413 bed days were lost for the first quarter of this year alone because of bed closures. How is the Minister to give any guarantee of keeping these acute beds open let alone providing the significant increase in new acute beds that Hanly would require?

I would also like the Minister for Health and Children to explain why he accepts the argument in this report that bigger is better, without hard scientific proof. Is he aware, for example, of recent research carried out by health economists in the University of York that proves otherwise? In Britain similar hospital rationalisation has been taking place as is proposed now in Hanly, but there is a danger that yet again Ireland is adopting a system just when it is coming under question in other countries.

The empirical literature shows that the optimal size for acute hospitals is relatively small and ranges from 200 to 400 beds. Above that figure average costs increase. Hanly is ambitious on this point and recommends the end of single specialty hospitals and the combining of these with acute hospitals on single sites. The National Maternity Hospital in Holles Street, for example, would go to the St. Vincent's complex, yet we know there are additional costs when managing a larger organisation. The only clear way to reduce costs is to reduce capacity in merged hospitals but that is hardly what Hanly has in mind.

Hanly argues that patient outcomes will be better in major hospitals and that is generally accepted to be the case. Again the York study challenges this presumption. The study states:

There is no reason to believe that further concentration in the provision of hospitals will lead to any automatic gains in efficiency or patient outcomes. Maybe the research base is inadequate, but the onus is on those who advo cate the benefits of concentration to prove their case.

In withdrawing local services and downgrading local hospitals the least the Minister can do is prove the case for greater efficiency and outcome. He has not done so. Instead the public is being told that because junior hospital doctors will no longer be exploited the entire hospital service is to be reconfigured. No one doubts that change is inevitable but serious doubts are being expressed about the Government's judgment, its inability to manage change and its failure to target funding effectively. It is the patient who will pay the price of Government incompetence.

We have had report after report after report. We are committeed out. After all the effort the picture is even more confused. There is no one road map forward for the health service. We have a number of maps and they need to be brought together. If the Minister for Health and Children intends to implement reforms he needs to create an overall template from all the different reports.

He must be able to guarantee ring-fenced funding for his reforms and agree a timetable for implementation. On the basis of his record there is little public confidence that this Government is capable of meeting the challenge. Indeed today's published hospital waiting lists confirm that the Government has totally failed in its much vaunted claim to create the world class health service.

The Hanly report was in its own terms formulated without any political, financial or industrial relations considerations. It described an ideal world in ideal conditions. The truth about our health service is the indignity of an elderly patient lying on a trolley for hours and even days in an accident and emergency department; the torment of waiting in pain for months and even years for treatment that a private patient can access in days or weeks; and an incompetent Government that was presented with a growing healthy economy and squandered a golden opportunity.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Upton and Burton.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

In approximately 20 minutes' time, the Minister for Health and Children will respond to this motion. I can safely predict that he will list endless statistics, huge sums of money, percentage increases in expenditure and figures with lots of noughts, from which he will contend that he is doing a wonderful job and that all is well in Ireland's health services, but it is too late for this. We have all been there and the truth is that when there is an enormous budget, as in the case of health, hundreds of millions of additional euro have to be spent to stand still. While in the past we could have been bamboozled with talk of millions and billions, there have always been huge increases in health expenditure. Save for the time when "Mac the knife" was wielding the cuts in the late 1980s, every Minister for Health and Children could stand up and boast of historically high levels of expenditure on health services.

The House and, more importantly, the people have heard it all before. We have heard the promises of change and improvements, endless reports and analyses. Whatever the Minister says tonight, the first sentence of the Labour Party motion before the House is the truth: "after more than six years in office at a time of unprecedented economic growth, the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government has failed to deliver an acute hospital service that meets public need". Whatever the Minister or any Fianna Fáil backbencher says, the public, health professionals and even the Minister and his Department know the truth of this. That is why he is clutching at all those reports. He knows that six years of this Administration has failed to produce a health service that provides for the needs of the people and in which they have confidence.

Like all real problems, the first step on the road to putting matters right is an acknowledgement of the scale and depth of the problem itself. The Minister would be well advised to bin the script that he has prepared. He should not give us the litany of millions and billions and noughts and percentages, rather he should face the truth. Labour's motion acknowledges all the work done in recent health studies. It is now time for a commitment to action. We urgently require 3,000 additional hospital beds. Will the Minister tell us that they are to be provided? We immediately require a commitment to the doubling of hospital consultant numbers to the 3,600 that the Hanly report says are required. We want a commitment in a measurable timeframe to the provision of an acute hospital service that is consultant-delivered. This has been the promise of the Department since the Shaping a Healthier Future document – I know something about that. When will we see it delivered? Will we be given the timeframe and commitment for this tonight?

Will we see the establishment of regional speciality self-sufficiency that Hanly has promised and outlines? Will we have the upgrading and retraining of the emergency medical technicians so that people can get first class delivery of care at the point of an accident and, more importantly, the relief of pain rather than facing long journeys by ambulance in pain?

There is one urgent and critical component of the motion that I wish to spend some time on, namely, the final clause of the motion which calls for "the absolute recognition of the principle that all citizens in every part of the country must have access in reasonable time to world class accident and emergency services". That is not too much to ask. This is something that is a basic right and one that we would want for our loved ones if they were ever faced with a critical medical condition.

We know that phase two of Mr. Hanly's work is under way. He and his team are looking at other than the two regions they have already looked at. All the good work that has been done to date by his team will be fatally compromised if this essential principle is not recognised and accepted. Whatever mathematical formulation is used to decide on hospital services location – Deputy McManus talked in terms of a table top analysis – what cannot be missed is the issue of population distribution and geography. This must be at the centre of health care provision. Health care provision is about nothing if it is not about access for people who need it. People must have ready access to hospital care in a timely fashion in the event of an emergency.

Bluntly put, it cannot be acceptable, or even contemplated, that there would be no accident and emergency unit between St. Vincent's Hospital in the centre of Dublin city and Ardkeen Hospital in Waterford. It simply will not be allowed to happen and people know that. It would defy logic. That such a concept seems to be anchored in the Hanly thinking has caused difficulties for the explanation of the full report. I have raised this directly with Mr. Hanly. I detect, in advance of the detailed examination he and his team have embarked on, that there will be flexibility on this critical issue. I believe that it will assist Mr. Hanly, and perversely will be of great assistance to the Minister if he seriously wishes to bring about structural reform and meaningful change in our acute hospital system, that it is expressly and specifically approved in a motion in Dáil Éireann tomorrow night. I ask him to seriously reflect on this matter between now and the vote on the motion.

The figures on public expenditure for the first ten months of this year, released today, make interesting reading. They should strengthen the Minister's case when he goes to Cabinet regarding the needs I outlined, namely, specific commitments to beds, hospital consultants and the support team requirement, the development of services on a regional basis and the preservation of acute accident and emergency and maternity services in many of the hospitals that currently have them. All those will cost significant amounts of money. It is mind-numbing that the capital budget target of the Minister for Finance was underspent by 19% – almost €750 million – in the first half of this year. I understand current expenditure is in the order of €726 million below target. The money is there, even within the figures provided by the Minister for Finance.

I want the Minister for once to abandon the doublespeak and gobbledegook, the smokescreen of figures, numbers and percentages, and to spell out clearly the reform programme on which he will stake his reputation. I also want him to be clear on the matter of preservation of acute accident and emergency services in those hospitals that absolutely and clearly require them, so that the needed reform on which we can all agree is not long-fingered again. I ask the Minister and his Department for once to seek consensus on a way forward that will result in an acute hospital service that meets all the needs of every Irish citizen, regardless of where they reside.

I would like to share my time with Deputy Gilmore.

I welcome the publication of the Hanly report, though not necessarily its recommendations. I welcome it because it highlights so many of the deficiencies in the health system. The report fails to address or deliberately omits any reference to political or industrial relation issues or funding. It refers to a timeframe which is driven entirely by the need to meet an EU directive and nothing else. Without the political will to implement it and without the industrial relations issues being addressed, or the necessary funding being in place, I fail to see how the Hanly report can be in any way meaningful.

One of the report's recommendations is that primary care services, including community care, should be an integral part of the proposed network. I welcome this recommendation because it implies an awareness of the particular needs of community care, but if it is to be successful, there is a crying need for a serious injection of funding into this vital area.

Community care, particularly for the elderly, is considered to be very satisfactory if properly applied and suitably funded. The ideal situation is that elderly people would be able to stay in comfort in their own homes with an appropriate facility and back-up. This implies that the basics are in place. I draw the Minister's attention to the current situation of the home help service, for instance. Will this be adequately funded and guaranteed? It is certainly not funded or guaranteed adequately at the moment. The service is anything but satisfactory and as we speak it is being decimated, with the number of hours being reduced almost on a daily basis. Elderly people are becoming more and more isolated. Their communities are being more fragmented and they are more and more being left to fend for themselves, with no back-up facilities.

The kind of services that are needed include, for example, chiropody for old age pensioners. There is a major problem emerging in my constituency involving a requirement or a request from a chiropodist for a top-up €10 fee from an old age pensioner who already has a medical card. I have asked parliamentary questions on this matter. I would like to know what the situation is and whether it is an acceptable state of affairs that people who already have a medical card are being invited or requested, or whatever conventional word one would like to use, to contribute an additional €10 before the service is provided. This issue must be addressed.

The situation with occupational therapists and elderly people is no better. The waiting list appears to be measured not in weeks or months but in years. This is totally unacceptable for elderly people. By their very nature they cannot afford to wait for years. They are either suffering on in pain, or tell the doctor that it scarcely matters since they will be dead before the occupational therapist visits to find out their needs. I accept that there is a shortage of occupational therapists but I do not believe there is any genuine effort being made to address that shortage in any significant way. There are ways in which it could be addressed. For example, student occupational therapists could be drafted in on work practice, and while they cannot have responsibility for delivery of the service, this is the kind of innovative step that must be considered to shorten the waiting time.

The other issue related to the shortage of occupational therapists and other health care professionals is the lack of places for them in the medical schools. There will have to be more places opened up for speech therapists, occupational therapists and physiotherapists. There must be some fast-forwarding of the system.

In recent weeks a number of respite beds were closed in the Cherry Orchard hospital. The victims again are the elderly and the carers, the people most in need of support and help. If the implementation of the Hanly report removes some of these obstacles to the well-being of the elderly, I welcome it, but as far as I can see there is no funding, no question of addressing the industrial relations aspect and no question of the political will being there to sort out these problems.

I want to address two aspects of the Hanly report. The first is the assumption it contains that as far as hospitals are concerned, big is better. Running right through the report is the assumption that the larger hospital will deliver a better outcome. In order to arrive at that conclusion the Hanly report relies on three studies, which I confess I have not read, but on which I have had a report from a constituent who has read them, and who makes the point, which I put to the Minister, that those studies do not bear out what Hanly has concluded.

The first study on which Hanly relies is the Batista study, which was confined to patients over 65. The authors of the study warned against generalising from that study to the rest of the population and in particular to younger patients. The second study, the Chassen study, concluded, as I understand it, that a bigger hospital was better but only for five named procedures rather than a generalised situation. The third study, the Nuffield study, reviewed the literature and concluded that much of the research which gave rise to the conclusion that bigger hospitals were better was technically flawed, and that in any event, bigger hospitals tend to have a higher number of elective patients. If one has more people going into a bigger hospital who are healthier in the first place, they are likely to come out healthier, which does not support the argument that bigger hospitals are better.

I make that point because Hanly's conclusions on the organisation of hospital services are based on the assumption that a bigger hospital is better. I put it to the Minister that the research on which Hanly relied in reaching that conclusion may not have suggested that conclusion in the first place.

The pilot study in the East Coast Area Health Board has now produced for us the bizarre conclusion that there will be no general major hospital between St. Vincent's Hospital in Elm Park and Waterford, an area which has the fastest population growth in Ireland. It does not appear to me that any account was taken, for example, of the Dublin strategic planning guidelines, which refer to very significant population growth and development in the south Dublin/ Wicklow/Wexford area, or of the conclusions arrived at by the Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government or by the Department of Transport. The latter is planning a motorway between Dublin and Waterford to accommodate 85,000 cars. If the level of population growth and activity in that triangle between Dublin and Waterford is such that it will require a motorway to service it, then it will certainly need more than one hospital located in St. Vincent's and another in Waterford, with nothing more than what the report calls nurse-led injury services, or glorified band aid stations, in place of the normal accident and emergency services.

These pilot studies are likely to be the model for the hospital services in the rest of the country. The pilot study for the East Coast Area Health Board is reported in Hanly in one and a half pages. If a study has been done of that health board, I am assuming there is documentation summarising that study, detailing who was consulted, what options were examined and what matters were taken into account, such as population growth and future need. I ask the Minister to publish the background documents which led to that being included in the Hanly Report. I assume that when looking at this the Hanly team had before it a summary of the discussions engaged in with medical and health management personnel in the East Coast Area Health Board. I do not think there were any discussions with patients or the wider public interest. I assume a larger summary exists than that contained in the Hanly report and it should be published. The public, who are being sold short by the conclusions in that report need to know what was examined and what options were considered.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"– notes the extensive additional resources, both capital and revenue, which have been allocated to the health services since 1997 and welcomes the increase of over 25% in the number of patients treated in acute hospitals in the period;

– endorses the innovative health service reform programme which has been initiated by the Government as reflected in the health strategy, Quality and Fairness – A Health System for You, and in its consideration of the Brennan and Prospectus Reports;

– welcomes the Report of the National Task Force on Medical Staffing, the Hanly report, which outlines a blueprint for the reduction in the working hours of non consultant hospital doctors and provides a model for the configuration of the acute hospital services;

– notes the reduction in waiting lists, and in particular notes the significant reductions achieved in the last year in the number of adults waiting more than 12 months for inpatient treatment in certain specialties e.g. cardiac surgery down by 78%, gynaecology down by 65%, vascular surgery down by 60%;

– commends the national treatment purchase fund for arranging treatment for over 8,000 patients since July 2002;

– recognises that equity of access is one of the key objectives which underlines the health strategy;

– acknowledges the 34% increase from 1,292 to 1,731 in consultant numbers which has taken place in the last six years;

– welcomes the Government's commitment to increase the number of acute beds by 3,000 of which close to 600 are already in place; and

– endorses the Government's commitment to improve emergency medicine services and, in particular, welcomes the approval of a significant increase in the number of emergency medicine consultants."

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the unprecedented developments in our health service in recent years and the fundamental reform programme upon which we have embarked. It is opportune at this time in the light of the recent publication of the report of the National Task Force on Medical Staffing, the Hanly report, to address the provision of acute hospital services against the background of impending change. It is important to point out that our primary focus remains on the provision of the most effective and efficient service for patients whose need to access acute services happens at a time when they are most vulnerable.

No one can deny that the system is providing more and better services than ever before. Activity in our acute hospitals continues to rise. In 2002 alone there were some 958,000 in-patient discharges. The 2002 figure represents approximately 2,620 patients per day being discharged for each day of the year and is an overall increase of nearly 25% on the number of discharges in 1997. In addition, in 2002, there were some 1.2 million attendances at emergency medicine or accident and emergency departments and some 2.2 million attendances at acute hospital out-patient departments. Provisional figures for the first eight months of 2003 show activity to be up approximately 4% on the 2002 figure.

Day activity is now a significant component of hospital-based care in Ireland. Evidence shows that much of the growth is the result of technological and medical innovations, such as less invasive surgery and advances in anaesthetics. There was an increase of 65% in the number of day cases between 1997 and 2002. That is a staggering increase in productivity by any yardstick.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

It is regrettable the Opposition could not acknowledge that dramatic and staggering increase in activity between 1997 and 2000.

Hear, hear.

This reflects the increasing ability of the hospital system to treat more patients on a daily basis where patients are admitted and discharged on the same day. It also reflects the increased investment made to facilitate this happening. It shows that money invested in the acute hospital system was not squandered as suggested by Deputy McManus. It is time that was said.

Hear, hear.

The Minister should ask the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, about that.

The staff have produced the goods in terms of productivity.

The Minister has not.

I am making the fundamental point that an increase of 65% in activity is a good illustration of the kind of innovation in which the staff have engaged and which justifies the benchmarking awards made to those working in the hospital sector.

We are not criticising the staff.

The Deputy is criticising the benchmarking awards and has cogently done so.

I am criticising the Minister.

These additional services are now being provided by an increasing number of medical consultants. According to the Comhairle na nOspidéal report on consultant staffing, on l January 2003 there were 1,731 consultant posts in the public sector in Ireland. This represents an increase of 439 or 34% from January 1996 to January 2003. The recently published Hanly report deals with the future expansion of consultant posts which I will refer to later. It is interesting that we exceeded the recommendations of the Tierney report published ten years ago.

Why was it not done in 1998?

The time for this debate is limited. Members who commenced the debate were afforded the opportunity to speak without interruption. I ask that the Minister be afforded the same courtesy.

The Hanly report deals with consultant posts. People ask if the recommendations will be achieved. The Tierney report published ten years ago was a similar exercise to that undertaken by the Hanly team though it was not as comprehensive. That report recommended we increase our numbers to 1,500 by 2003. We now have 1,731 consultant posts which shows such numbers are achievable. What we are doing is a slight change from what was recommended in the Tierney report in the context of a fundamental reform of how we staff our hospitals, changing the equilibrium between consultant numbers and junior doctors. That has to happen. I would appreciate if that fact were endorsed by the House. There has been a bit of dodging and fudging and sitting on the fence regarding the Hanly report. I would like to know if the Labour Party is in favour of or against the Hanly principles.

I thought we were very clear on that.

The Deputy was not clear on that.

Is the Deputy for or against them?

We are very clear on where we stand on them. Where does the Minister stand?

One of the areas on which we have placed much emphasis in recent years is in the development of cancer services. Since 1997, there has been a cumulative additional investment of approximately €400 million in the development of such services. This includes €29 million allocated in 2003 for cancer services. This substantial investment has enabled the funding of 87 additional consultant posts in key areas such as medical oncology, radiology, palliative care, histopathology, and haematology. Additional oncology nurses have also been recruited throughout the country.

The benefit of this investment is reflected in the significant increase in activity which has occurred. For example the number of new patients receiving radiotherapy treatment increased by 58 % from 1994 to 2000; the number of new patients receiving chemotherapy treatment increased by 30 % in the same period and in-patient breast cancer procedures increased by 37% in the period 1997 to 2001.

This Government has maintained a particular focus on those waiting longest for hospital treatment. Despite pressures on the acute hospital system considerable progress has been made by health agencies in reducing waiting times for public patients. Hospital in-patient waiting list figures stood at 16,658 at the end of June 2003. This is a decrease of 4,916 or 23 % since June 2002. The waiting list data for the period ended 30 June 2003 showed that there were significant reductions in the number of adults and children waiting longest for in-patient treatment. The total number of adults waiting more than 12 months for in-patient treatment in the nine target specialties fell by approximately 43% from 7,402 to 4,252 from June 2002 to June 2003. The total number of children waiting more than six months for in-patient treatment in the same specialties and for the same period has decreased by approximately 57% from 1,576 to 676.

Noteworthy decreases have been made in the various target specialties in the period June 2002 and June 2003. The number of adults waiting longer than 12 months for in-patient treatment in cardiac surgery, gynaecology and vascular surgery are down by 78%, 65% and 60% respectively. These are significant decreases which should be acknowledged. They are the result of increased investment and of a different way of doing things. Those children waiting longer than six months for in-patient treatment in plastic surgery, general surgery and orthopaedics have fallen by 71 %, 69% and 55% respectively.

Very significant progress has been made in many health board areas to achieve the target of no adult waiting longer than 12 months and no child waiting longer than six months. The following hospitals have reported no adults waiting more than 12 months for in-patient treatment: St. James's Hospital, Portlaoise General Hospital, Wexford General Hospital, Mayo General Hospital and Roscommon County Hospital. This has been achieved through active management of long waiting lists at a local level and the involvement of the national treatment purchase fund. This is in line with health strategies. It is now the case that all health boards outside of the eastern region are reporting that, in general, those adults currently reported to be waiting more than 12 months and those children reported to be waiting more than six months have been operated treatment under the national treatment purchase fund or have conditions that are complicated or outside the remit of the NTPF.

While the rate of progress in achieving the targets set out in the health strategy has been slower than anticipated, the targets not only remain a goal to be achieved but are being substantially met outside the capital. We acknowledge that the eastern region is still an area of some difficulty. Funding through the waiting list initiative and the national treatment purchase fund will continue to keep the focus on reducing waiting lists and waiting times.

The national treatment purchase fund, which was established in April 2002 to purchase operations for those public patients who have been waiting longest on hospital waiting lists, has been effective. Its functions include working in partnership with health boards, hospitals, GPs and consultants to ensure that waiting times for public patients are reduced as quickly as possible. The NTPF initiative is about the patient. It is about treating patients who have been left on waiting lists for years. That is not a new phenomenon in Ireland and is a problem that has faced successive Governments. However, what is new is the particular focus which the Government, through the NTPF, has cast on the waiting list problem. Since its establishment it has removed from waiting lists more than 8,000 of the people longest waiting. The fund referred 200 patients per month at the beginning of this year and that has now risen to 800 per month.

The fact that public hospitals are carrying out work for the NTPF is in accordance with the NTPF's remit, provided it does not interfere with core funded activity levels or upset the workings of the public hospital system. That is the basis on which the NTPF work is performed in public hospitals. The single most important limiting factor for admission to hospital is bed availability. Therefore, increasing the bed capacity of the acute hospital system is an immediate priority for the Department of Health and Children. The extent of the shortfall in acute capacity has been identified in a report by Dr. Mary Codd entitled Acute Hospital Bed Capacity – A National Review. That recommends an additional 3,000 acute beds in hospitals by 2011. I introduced the first phase of that process in January 2002 and provided ring-fenced funding of over €117 million for an additional 709 acute beds for public patients. One must remember that the health strategy stated that there should be 450 public beds in the first year rather than 709, with 200 to be purchased from the private sector. We have got the private beds through the NTPF and we have commissioned 568 public beds to date.

The Minister has closed half of them.

Deputy Howlin said that every Minister could boast about increases in spending, but this is the first time in over two decades that there has been a substantial increase in bed capacity in the system and funding provision foreseen. It is the first time that a Government has been able to do that.

It is the first time that a Government has had the money. It has had six years of unprecedented wealth.

The same is true of emergency medicine and the difficulties there.

The Minister has closed 250 beds.

Beds have closed every year, and Deputy McManus can read out the figure of 23,000 hours or whatever it is for every year of the past 30 years. We know that there were particular funding difficulties this year, but ward refurbishment and seasonal closures have been a feature year on year.

The Minister is telling us that he spent all this money.

Please allow the Minister to be heard. The Member has had her opportunity.

That is trotted out by Opposition spokesmen from time to time.

Let us have the Minister for Defence.

No, because I need time to finish my speech.

(Interruptions).

Please allow the Minister to continue.

To deal with current pressures on acute services, both in the shorter term and the longer term, I would like to outline some of the key actions that I have taken. It has been widely documented that a number of patients in acute hospital beds have completed the acute phase of their treatment and are ready for discharge to a more appropriate setting. In addition to the very substantial base funding of up to €130 million that has been put in place for nursing home subventions and so on over the past few years, we have made additional funding available this year to the eastern and southern regions to try to manage the issue of moving people from the acute phase to the continuing care phase of their treatment more effectively and efficiently. That money has been allocated to facilitate the discharge of patients from acute hospitals to a more appropriate setting. It allows for funding through the subvention system of additional beds and other ongoing support in the community. The Eastern Regional Health Authority has confirmed that in the region of 200 patients are expected to be discharged from acute hospitals as a direct result of that additional funding. To date, more than 140 people have been discharged to a variety of settings as a result of the initiative.

There was much cynicism in the House about the winter initiative package of 2000-01. We provided €40 million to alleviate service pressures and so on, and as a result 20 additional emergency medicine consultants have been recruited, the largest increase in consultants in any specialty apart from cancer. There were only 16 accident and emergency consultants in 2001. Deputy Howlin speaks about accident and emergency services across the country—

Working from the car park.

—but most hospitals did not have a notion or sense of an accident and emergency consultant being appointed up to the time I took that initiative. Then everybody put their hands up to say that they wanted one, but there was an obligation on the regions and health boards to do things strategically and in accordance with best medical practice – I will deal with that later.

On primary care, we have taken very significant—

Who decided that?

Those who were under a statutory obligation to decide should do so, and that is currently the health boards, although they keep looking for guidance on it.

On the primary care issue, we have funded the substantial initiative of GP co-operatives, which is making a difference across the country. We have put about €46.5 million into this area. Deputy McManus might sniff at that, with the IMO. Depending on which way the wind is blowing, Deputy McManus can be the best articulator of the IMO's views on such issues, particularly when the industrial relations situation becomes hot. Then, when we have settled the industrial relations, she changes tack and says that we should not have given them so much money. I get a sense that she is doing the same tonight in her commentary regarding the most recent statement from the IMO.

The Minister should stick to his script rather than straying.

I am not straying. We have put very significant funding into primary care and will continue to do so. The €46 million spent on GP co-operatives has not been going on for years.

It has been going on for years.

It has not been going on for years. It was not there in Deputy Howlin's time.

We developed it, as the Minister knows well.

I do not. The Deputy should look at a graph and he will see what has happened to funding and so forth. Emergency medical technicians are a very important issue regarding the Hanly report and first responses. There have been significant developments in the ambulance service in recent years, including a major upgrading in training and standards, the equipping of emergency ambulances with defibrillators and the training of ambulance personnel in their use. The introduction of two-person crewing has been implemented in nearly all regions. It is a relatively recent phenomenon. Progress has been made in upgrading the ambulance fleet and equipment, and there have been improvements in communication equipment and control facilities. We have more to do.

The Minister certainly does.

In the context of the Hanly report, it is a key area. The report of the national task force on medical staffing will have a very significant impact on the organisation of our acute hospital services. It completes the package of reforms that we set out in the health service reform programme announced in June. It represents a radical greenfield approach to the development of acute services which will ensure better services and outcomes for patients. In the beginning we said that we did not want Mr. Hanly to become involved in industrial relations issues because he would never have completed the exer cise, and everyone in this House knows that. A former Minister would know that. If we had said to the Hanly group that it should anticipate and resolve the industrial relations issues before publishing the report—

No one is arguing with the Minister.

The Deputy has argued with me. Several speakers tonight drew attention to the fact that the report is wonderful, ideal and far removed from industrial relations, the implication being that it should not be. The point was also made about politics.

An t-Aire, without interruption.

In terms of the working time directive, the IMO was not involved – I note that Deputy McManus read a letter from the IMO. The issue was that until the Hanly report was published, the LRC was not in a position to arbitrate between the two sides in terms of the hours NCHDs work. Our position is that reducing NCHD hours by next summer does not mean their replacement by consultants.

So there will be no new consultants.

I did not say that.

Then the Minister should tell us how many.

The Deputy should listen. I am simply making the point that the Hanly report describes several initiatives which would have an immediate impact on the number of hours worked.

Why were those initiatives not taken years ago?

Let us hear the Minister without interruption.

That is the position.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mitchell will have an opportunity to make a contribution shortly.

We will be taking that position on board in the negotiations in an industrial relations context that will be officiated over by the Labour Relations Commission.

How many new consultants will there be?

Deputy McManus has had her opportunity. Please allow the Minister to continue.

With respect, our record on the appointment of additional consultants is far superior to that of Deputy McManus. She is in no position to lecture me about appointments.

I am asking for information.

Deputy McManus, I ask you to resume your seat.

I want to ask a question.

Deputy McManus is not entitled to ask a question at this stage. The Minister is in possession. The Deputy had an opportunity to speak and the Minister is now entitled to speak without interruption.

How much time do I have, a Cheann Comhairle?

The Minister has too much time.

The Minister has ten minutes.

There is no relief in sight.

I want to respond to the points made by Deputies, which is what a parliamentary debate is all about.

Since when?

I am not just reading a script but responding to points made. I think Deputy Upton said the Hanly report was just about meeting the terms of the EU directive on NCHDs. It is not just about the directive, an important imperative coming down the tracks, particularly for 2009. The Hanly group had the very difficult challenge of determining how we could get to the 2009 position if there would be a 48 hour working week for junior doctors and consultants. The aims and terms of reference of the manpower forum related to a service provided by consultants, as opposed to the current service which is over-dependent on doctors in training for service provision. How can one achieve all of this without a fundamental reconfiguration of acute hospital services?

It is easy to condemn the Hanly report. It is far too simplistic to say, as Deputy Gilmore did, that it is crudely saying a bigger hospital is better. That is not representative of the entirety of the report which is interested in examining how we can move to a service provided by consultants. Such a service should provide cover every hour of every day but that is not the case at present.

It should be accessible to everybody.

There should be flexible rostering in the context of a 48 hour working week. The implications of providing such a service are huge.

One could be talking about seven consultants per specialty on the basis of a 24 hour roster in the key specialties of anaesthesia and surgery. That, in itself, would have implications for what could be done in hospitals of a certain size and other hospitals of a larger size. It is not a case of big being better but of multidisciplinary teams of care being available. Expertise is built up when there are large volumes of cases. One achieves better survival rates in such circumstances.

That seems fine but it is no good if one cannot get there in time.

That was challenged in this evening's debate. The idea that multidisciplinary centres of excellence would produce better outcomes was challenged. Deputy Gilmore quoted certain research, as he was entitled to do.

The concept has not been challenged for some time. Successive Governments have believed multidisciplinary teams should be available to deal with certain key specialties such as heart disease, cancer, neurosurgery—

Liver transplants.

—transplantation and paediatrics in centres that have developed excellence over time because of the volume of patients coming through.

That was not the point he made.

This idea is a cornerstone of national health policy going forward.

We all know that.

It was questioned this evening.

It has been misinterpreted.

It has not. If the Deputy who made the statement wishes to withdraw it, he can do so.

There are national and regional specialties.

The matter was raised in the context of the debate. I believe passionately in the idea of multidisciplinary teams being available.

Nobody is arguing with the Minister.

I believe passionately in giving better outcomes.

Nobody disputes that.

The Hanly report is predicated on that belief.

But it is—

I will come back to that.

Deputy Gilmore was talking about research.

The other key point about the Hanly report is that it does not state hospitals will be closed. I accept, to be fair, that nobody has made such a claim this evening.

They will be downgraded.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to finish.

I have no intention of closing any hospitals.

The Minister will call it something else.

The task force does not recommend it. The Deputy is playing games again.

I am not.

Yes, he is.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please. The Minister should proceed without interruption.

What will the Minister do?

The Hanly group has not proposed the downgrading of any hospital.

Yes, it has.

It has cogently argued that we must bring as many services as possible closer to patients, while ensuring those services are both safe and sustainable. What has the existing acute hospital services system produced in the last 30 years? We should analyse what it has produced.

It has produced the opposite to what the Minister claimed in the first 15 minutes of his statement.

Despite the fact that we have exceeded the recommendations of the Tierney report on consultant numbers, regions such as the mid-west have only one rheumatologist. The big issue is the number of trauma cases that will or will not be referred to Limerick or Ennis.

That is a big issue if one is a trauma victim.

It is a big issue.

I argue, in the interests of regional self-sufficiency, that there is a need for four rheumatologists, dermatologists or urologists in that region, as the Hanly report has pointed out.

Will the Minister pay for it?

Perhaps the provision of such professionals is of greater significance for a region than some of the other matters we have debated. We need an informed debate.

The Minister is saying rheumatologists are more important than trauma surgeons.

I did not say that.

He did not say that.

That is extraordinary.

No, I did not say that. Does Deputy Howlin wish to discuss the issue of trauma?

I do. Where does the Minister stand on it?

I will tell the Deputy. We need to get the patient to the most appropriate setting – the setting with the best survival rate for patients of that type.

Hear, hear.

The patient will be dead by the time he or she arrives.

Let us not cod that patient any more.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please. We cannot proceed with the debate in this manner.

Let us not pretend to the patient. The Deputy knows that will not happen.

Where will the patient be placed between St. Vincent's Hospital and Waterford?

We will have to bypass another area.

What will happen?

I will tell the Deputy.

Will the Minister accept that recommendation?

The Deputy knows well where I stand.

Tell me.

I have adopted the same position as the Deputy when he was Minister for Health and Children.

Tell the House.

The Deputy and his predecessors said the exact same thing. The bottom line is what I said about emergency medical technicians as the first respondents, about which nobody is arguing. No member of the Hanly group said we should not stabilise patients or that we should not do everything we possibly could to save lives. Action can be taken where the accident takes place, in the ambulance or the nearest hospital. Somebody has to make a call about where the best place is to go.

What is the Minister's call?

The Government has supported the Hanly group which says that if we want to guarantee the best survival rates for patients, we have to take them to the place where that can be guaranteed. The Deputy knows that there is only so much one's local hospital can do if one has a serious back or head injury.

Absolutely.

That is the point. We should stop arguing about it if we agree about it.

The Minister has outlined what is happening.

Many lives have been saved under the present system.

The Hanly group is also saying local hospitals can do much more than they are doing to provide for an increasing volume of elective procedures. We have said this. The Hanly process will involve an enhancement of the type of services that can be provided in local hospitals.

The Department has engaged in a major consultation process in respect of the reform of the health service, just as it said it would when it made a decision on the Prospectus and Brennan reports in June. It contacted all of the health boards. The consultation exercise involved over 20,000 staff from all aspects of the health service and, as a result, a report has been compiled by the Office of Health Management. It is important that we consult staff. I do not accept the argument that this should not have been done, or that it was a waste of time. We always said there would be a three month consultation phase. We are working to finalise the list of nominees to the Health Service Executive and implementation group.

The list was supposed to have been finalised by mid-October.

I will not apologise for not rushing that exercise, as I want to get the right people of the right calibre and the right quality to lead what is a huge process of change.

Why does the Minister not make promises he can keep?

The bottom line is that this is the most fundamental reform of the health service since 1970. It will involve significant time and effort on the part of the people in question.

When will we see them?

We will see them in due course, when I have completed this process.

We did not see them in mid-October.

In the interests of ensuring fair access, the strategy identifies the need to ensure equitable access to services. This involves improving access to hospital services for public patients and recognising other barriers which affect people's ability to access services. The Government is committed to ensuring equity of access to services for all persons. This debate illustrates the Labour Party's cynical approach to the important issue of health reform.

The Minister should not give us this argument.

The Labour Party has twisted and turned too often in a sad attempt to put its popularity above the needs of patients.

The Minister did not write this.

I have witnessed this approach again tonight. The Labour Party is trying to place an each way bet on the Hanly report because it wants to have it every way.

Where does the Minister stand on accident and emergency services?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

I know where the Deputy stands.

I am asking where the Minister stands.

Where does the Deputy stand on the Hanly report?

Deputy Howlin made a statement—

Is the Minister in favour of having no accident and emergency services between St. Vincent's Hospital and Waterford?

Nobody has said that will happen.

Where does the Deputy stand on it?

Is the Minister in favour of it?

Where does it say that in the Hanly report?

Will the Minister insist that it does not happen?

It does not say that.

Will the Minister insist that it does not happen?

It is a figment. The Hanly report does not say that.

Will the Minister insist that it does not happen?

The Hanly report does not say that.

Will the Minister insist that it does not happen?

Does the Deputy accept that the Hanly report does not say that?

Will the Minister insist—

Will the Deputy accept that the report does not say that?

The Hanly group has not looked into it.

That is the logic.

Why has the Deputy made such a suggestion?

It follows from the principle behind the report.

Rubbish.

The logic of Hanly is exactly that.

That is a classic illustration of the point I am making.

Where does the Minister stand?

Where does the Deputy stand on the Hanly report?

The Government is waiting until after the local elections.

Will the Minister answer that simple question?

The Deputy will not allow me to speak.

Will he guarantee that no hospitals will close?

The Deputy has acknowledged that the allegation he was throwing around the House all night does not even exist.

The principle of the matter—

It does not even exist. The Deputy drew a new geographical line in terms of the Hanly report.

Did it exist in earlier drafts?

Deputy Howlin made a very important point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister should be allowed to proceed without interruption.

He said that the Hanly report defied logic. I suspect that the only logic to which he refers is electoral logic.

Is the Minister saying he is in favour of the changes I have mentioned?

I mentioned a specific proposal.

I said the Deputy left out the word "electoral" when he said the Hanly report defied logic. The Deputy is interested in the electoral logic of his constituency.

I said the proposal defied logic. Does the Minister stand by the proposal?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister should conclude.

If the suggestion which—

There is no suggestion. The Deputy should not talk rubbish.

The Minister is talking rubbish

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister should conclude.

Deputy Howlin is inventing suggestions, by his own admission.

We want clarity in this. Rule it out and let us all—

There is a need for an informed debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister's time is up.

The Labour Party called the health strategy a sham and then went ahead and said we should not fund it.

I wish to share my time with Deputies Neville and Pat Breen.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I support the motion tabled by my Labour Party colleagues and welcome the opportunity to discuss aspects of the Hanly report. As I understand we are to have a debate on the report next week, I will confine myself to two points that need to be made.

In reply to Deputy McManus, the Minister stated the Hanly report did not require the appointment of additional consultants by next summer. He is wrong about this. The recommendations do require the appointment of additional consultants in the pilot areas. The Minister had better be very sure that they are in place by next summer or he will have no pilot areas, never mind a set of fully implemented recommendations. The initiatives apply to the other areas not included among the pilot areas. The initiatives the Minister suggests cannot be attained by next summer. If they could be, they would have been implemented long ago, certainly before he made the very expensive deal with non-consultant hospital doctors in 2000. He should put this idea to bed.

The House begged me to do that deal.

The Minister is now telling us he could have done a better one and that initiatives could have been taken—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

Avoid a strike.

I am angry at your absolute complacency in face of the crisis in the acute hospitals in Dublin. The way in which you have absolutely ignored—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should speak through the Chair.

It is absolutely outrageous that the Minister has ignored the crisis in Dublin. I disabuse him of his belief that simply because he has rolled out all of his reports, because he has run out of excuses for inaction and because he now has a neat little formula for reform, which may happen some day in the future, he has somehow absolved himself of all responsibility to do anything about the crisis. He is ignoring crises arising every day in the health service, particularly in the acute hospitals in Dublin. Those who are sick today need to be treated today and the Hanly report, the Brennan report or the Prospectus report are of no relevance to them. The Minister must deal with the problems of today.

For the past six months the Minister has been wittering on about a smoking ban while people are dying on trolleys in hospitals or cannot gain admission to them. He was nowhere to be found when there was a crisis in the health service, yet every time an unknown pub owner from the back end of nowhere had anything to say about the smoking ban, he was present with a camera and script to speak on the issue. He must have made 100 statements on the ban, yet none about the crisis of people dying with indignity in hospitals or their not being able to get into hospitals.

Did the Deputy hear what the Minister said? He referred to 200 beds—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order, please.

How could the Minister remain silent while an elderly woman was spending her fifth day on a hospital trolley in an accident and emergency department of a hospital in Dublin? This hospital had 100 beds closed due to a lack of funding and a so-called lack of staff.

Out of how many thousand?

However, the irony is that the staff could be found when public wards were being opened to treat people under the national treatment purchase fund. It was miraculous that they could be found for this, yet could not be found for an elderly person spending her fifth day on a trolley. Thirty-one people were on trolleys in the Mater Hospital yesterday, of whom one woman was on a trolley for her fifth day.

I am not criticising the national treatment purchase fund. It is a great idea if there is spare capacity and no demand to fill it. If this is the case, one can buy treatment from the private sector or abroad. However, none of the hospitals in Dublin falls into this category. They are all bursting at the seams and cancelling elective surgery. The Tallaght Hospital and the Mater Hospital have 32 and 31 people on trolleys, respectively. Day surgery in Tallaght Hospital has almost ceased completely. It has only 50% capacity whereas it was operating at 120% last year or the year before. This is because 12 beds are permanently used for the overflow from the accident and emergency department. What was supposed to have been an emergency provision has become permanent, resulting in the cancellation of elective surgery for an increasing number. One's surgery can be cancelled up to four times in Tallaght Hospital. Imagine what this means in human terms for those involved. It is an absolute outrage.

The only way this problem can be dealt with in the short term is through the provision of funding which must be released. It is unacceptable that we continue to lurch from crisis to crisis, with our hospitals every day having to threaten to go off call or go off call. It is always on a knife-edge and will end in tears for somebody. We cannot continue as we are.

We no longer believe in the 3,000 beds we have been promised. They are a little like the 2,000 extra gardaí. It is a mantra the Minister keeps repeating but nobody believes they will materialise. If the Minister cannot give us new beds, can he not at least open the hundreds of beds closed in Dublin? It is completely unacceptable that we continue like this.

What about the figure of €117 million and the 709 new beds?

What is the Minister of State wittering on about?

The Minister referred to increased activity, including cancer services. Not only can people not get into hospitals to have cancers treated but they cannot even get in to have a diagnosis made. It is too late to treat them by the time they are admitted to hospital. This is an absolute outrage. The Minister must do something in order that those who eventually get into accident and emergency units can be treated and resuscitated or, in some cases, die with some dignity and privacy.

Another point I wish to raise is unrelated and has been completely cast aside. There has been no mention in any of the Minister's reports about the future of private health insurance or how the health needs of the 45% with such insurance will be catered for. Will the Minister, tomorrow night or next week when addressing the Hanly report, articulate what role he envisages for private medicine? It seems from his utterances and the reports that have been published that fundamental change is envisaged or perhaps even the total erosion of private medicine. I do not know what he has in mind, if anything. The Brennan report, for instance, calls for all new consultant contracts to allow for public work only. The Hanly proposals for 24 hour rostering seem to preclude all private work. The ESRI regards the 20% of beds traditionally allocated to private patients as a way of solving the capacity problem in the public system. I am puzzled. With no consultants and virtually no beds, it is very difficult to see how private medicine will survive. Is this what the Minister intends or is there a plan? I want equity and no discrimination in the system but I see this happening through purchased insurance for everybody. Perhaps the Minister has another plan. If so, let us hear it.

What role does the Minister envisage for all of the hospitals now under construction and incentivised through the tax system? Will it involve catering for a tiny elite? If what the Minister seems to be suggesting goes ahead, the vast majority of patients will cancel their insurance policies and be forced back into the public system because there will be simply no beds or consultants for them anywhere.

As the Minister knows, our health system developed in an ad hoc and unstructured way. It is now complex and intricate with the result that the private and public systems are interlocking in such a way that one cannot pull a support from one system and not expect the whole structure to come crashing down. It cannot be dismantled by stealth or simply by default because nobody has addressed how it should proceed. If the Minister is considering fundamental change, he had better be sure the public sector is willing and able and has the funding to accommodate the 45% currently buying private health insurance. The reason such large numbers of people are placing themselves under considerable financial strain to pay for health insurance is that they do not have faith in the Government to provide a health service or manage change in it. Nobody believes in the reforms we hear about or that there is sufficient financial commitment or political will to make the changes needed in the health service. All the Government appears able to do is publish or commission reports.

The financial demands of the Hanly report make it unrealisable, a view shared by almost every Member to have spoken, although I do not deny that elements of the report are welcome. The Minister has heard our reservations and will hear more next week. The health system will fall apart if he is not in a position, once the Hanly report or elements of it are introduced, to cater for the people whose health care is currently provided through private insurance. In light of the Minister's faith in the report and other reforms, have he or members of the task force given up their private health insurance and does he recommend that others do so? He should come clean and inform the House what is envisaged for private health insurance.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate and congratulate the Labour Party on taking the opportunity to table the motion. As Members will be aware, I am from the mid-west region. We have examined the Hanly report and while it has many positive features, concerns remain about whether the programme laid out in the report can be implemented. The suggestion that the number of consultants in the mid-west could increase from 109 to 304 does not appear realistic.

The report also refers to the rationalisation of hospitals in County Limerick and envisages the closure of the orthopaedic hospital in Croom. The Minister has indicated this is not the case but I have just read it in the report.

The Deputy should read it again as there are a number of qualifications.

The report also envisages the closure of the St. John's Hospital, a private facility, and the reconstruction and extension of the regional hospital as the setting for the various closed facilities. The cost of these proposals alone would be prohibitive. At a meeting of the Joint Committee on Health and Children last week, Mr. Hanly stated that for the report to be effective, it would be necessary to implement its main parts by 2005. His statement is on the record. Will it be possible to implement the main elements of the report within two years?

The Minister is aware that the Irish Hospital Consultants Association has stated it will not be feasible to implement the Hanly report in the mid-west. It points out that patients will be permanently on trolleys when the first hospital restructuring pilot scheme is implemented and the Mid-West Regional Hospital in Limerick becomes the main centre for all acute patients. The consultants warn that this will lead to a bed occupancy rate of 104% in the hospital unless the Department provides substantial capital funding for a large number of new beds there. Does the Minister propose to allocate substantial capital funding before 2005 to ensure implementation of the report can take place, or are the consultants not able to calculate the number of hospital beds needed to implement the proposals?

Research carried out by the Irish Hospital Consultants Association shows that patients will be permanently on trolleys if the bed capacity prob lem is not addressed. The IHCA also states there is no point in introducing the plan if the bed capacity issue is not addressed and calls on the Department to start delivering on the 3,000 beds promised in the health strategy two years ago. It is not feasible, according to the consultants, to implement the report in the mid-west region due to current bed capacity, which is a vote of no confidence by the Irish Hospital Consultants Association in the implementation of the pilot project in the mid-west region.

Furthermore, the Irish Hospital Consultants Association notes that the Mid-West Regional Hospital will not be able to cope with the extra capacity because already last year its accident and emergency department dealt with 55,000 people. I visited the department this week and, like other hospital accident and emergency units, it is chock-a-block. The report proposes to increase the level of activity in this department by changing the level of activity undertaken in Nenagh and Ennis and transferring services to the Mid-West Regional Hospital. The required capacity is not available. In addition, according to the Hanly report, this must happen before 2005, which is impossible.

The public is sceptical of the Government's commitment to the health service, every sector of which is in crisis. In the Mid-Western Health Board region, for example, waiting lists for orthodontic treatment are growing alarmingly, with a 20% rise in the number of children in County Clare waiting for public dental treatment. Unless parents are fortunate enough to be able to afford private care, their child must continue to go untreated for years which often results in the problem worsening. In some cases, children never get to see an orthodontist. The Minister should put himself in the position of a parent whose child is told that his or her teeth are not sufficiently crooked to warrant immediate treatment. How does a parent tell a child that he or she cannot afford private treatment and must wait because this uncaring Government has failed to deliver real reform in the orthodontic service?

The recently published Hanly report will have severe consequences for the people of the Mid-Western Health Board region, particularly in Ennis and Nenagh where the general hospitals will be downgraded to local hospitals without accident and emergency departments. As the Minister is aware, accident and emergency departments are the backbone of hospitals which serve populations of more than 100,000 people. The people of County Clare believed the Minister and local Members of the Oireachtas, including Deputy Killeen, when they promised before the previous election that the upgrade of Ennis General Hospital would proceed. They believed the wards, the accident and emergency, radiology and out-patients departments and general infrastruc ture would be upgraded. Last week, when I raised this matter on the Adjournment, it was noticeable that the Minister failed to mention it in his reply. Why was this the case?

To make matters worse, the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, who represents a neighbouring constituency, told a local radio station last week that he knew nothing about the upgrading of the hospital. He had to release a press statement later the same day confirming there was a development control plan in place for the hospital. Is this the type of communication that takes place between the Minister and his junior colleague? If it is, the health service is in poor hands.

The Hanly report states that our ambulance service needs to be upgraded. Where is the money to fund this recommendation? In the early 1990s, the Mid-Western Health Board published an ambulance report in which new ambulance stations operating a 24 hour service were promised. We are still waiting for them in County Clare. A journey for any patient in an ambulance is a traumatic experience regardless of how short it is, as one feels every bump. The Minister should put himself in the position of a patient in the west Clare peninsula who has a coronary attack. If the Hanly report is implemented, the person in question will have to endure a journey of 80 miles to Limerick Regional Hospital bypassing Ennis General Hospital. This is not progress but a dangerous experiment. The Minister is playing with people's lives.

I ask the Minister to mark the date of 15 November in his diary. This is the day on which the mother of all battles will commence. The people of County Clare will march through the streets of Ennis as they did in 1828 when they turned out to greet Daniel O'Connell. They will show this uncaring Government their opposition to the Hanly report's proposals to downgrade Ennis General Hospital. The Government's policy of shutting down vital accident and emergency departments in our small hospitals is not reform but a backward step. These departments are critical to patients' welfare and survival.

That is not happening.

It is happening. There will be a nurse led rather than a consultant led service.

No consultants are available after 5 p.m.

The waiting lists have reduced in certain areas. Recently, I met a constituent who has been waiting 18 months for a hip replacement. The Minister should ask him whether waiting lists have been reduced.

The mid-west has one of the best hip replacement services in the State.

There is also a woman in Kilrush who suffers from severe respiratory problems who must wait 18 months for a wheelchair. That is the reality. These are the examples on the ground. A woman with a respiratory problem must wait 18 months for a wheelchair. That is the type of service available. Is this progress?

Debate adjourned.
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