Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Nov 2003

Vol. 573 No. 4

Leaders' Question.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have political responsibility for the administration of justice. Until last Monday, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was supremely confident that he was winning the war against crime, that the Garda had sufficient resources to do their job and that he had sufficient legislation on the Statute Book to enable justice to be administered properly. Monday's collapse of the trial and the revelations in a television programme about the true extent of the growth of gangland lawlessness were a wake-up call for the Government and there is now a crisis in the administration of justice across the land. I regard that as the biggest threat to the central core of our democracy since the murder of Veronica Guerin. In the aftermath of that tragedy, the rainbow Government set in place a clear and comprehensive strategy backed by manpower and resources which allowed the Garda to sit on these criminal gangs, remove them from their operations and put them out of business.

Yesterday's response from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not a clear strategy and is not comprehensive. It is contradictory for him to say we do not need a knee-jerk reaction or changes in the law, yet we must change the law of evidence, that the Garda have sufficient resources and that he will provide another €2 million from his own Vote. That is neither comprehensive nor clear and it is not a strategy that will win the war on the streets.

This crisis affecting our State will not be won in this House. It will be won by this House resourcing the Garda and giving it the opportunity to go into those communities and deal with those gangs where they have to be dealt with, removing their operations from the streets, thereby allowing the citizens of this State to know they are safe in their homes at night and free to go about their business. The cornerstone of this strategy should be the setting up of a special organised crime unit backed by resources, man power and firepower, if necessary, and giving the Garda the opportunity to sit on these gangs and put them out of business. I would like to hear the Taoiseach's response.

The Taoiseach

As I stated yesterday, I particularly want to sympathise with the family of Eric Leamy because they have suffered more than anybody else as a result of the trauma of recent days. I reiterate the utmost gravity with which the Government view the challenge Deputy Kenny has correctly raised. Recent events pose a challenge for our criminal system, our communities and society and it is a challenge the Government will take on, as the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform outlined here at length yesterday. It is important that where the democratic institutions of the State are challenged, those of us who are elected to represent our communities and defend our democracy and the constitutional principles which define a society should work together to that end. I appreciate the House is anxious to do that.

We should come together with a firm determination to work to defeat the sinister elements Deputy Kenny mentioned who work to undermine what is decent and good in this country. We should not allow one or two cases to determine all that is happening. That would be the wrong impression for this House to give. It is important to emphasise that, day in and day out, the criminal justice system deals very successfully with a huge number of cases involving serious criminality, including loss of life and what would be regarded as organised crime. It would be wrong, because of difficulties in one or two cases, to assert that the entire system has collapsed.

It is a challenge, however, and for almost two hours in the House yesterday, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I outlined what we believe is the situation. The additional €2 million was to provide for extra overtime for the rest of this year. That is in addition to huge resources that have been put into parts of Dublin City, Cork City and particularly into Limerick over the course of this year to deal with particular organised gangs who believe they can take the law into their own hands. These people have no respect for their neighbours, communities, the law, gardaí or anybody else.

There has been a high level conference of the Garda. They have already put in place their plans to deal with these issues. The Minister also outlined yesterday that he would undertake an examination of Canadian law whereby statements, which are subsequently disavowed, can be admitted in court as evidence where people have been intimidated or otherwise after making them. He also said there was a possibility of strengthening the law on failure to report serious felony and that failure to give an account of one's specific knowledge in such an event would also be taken into account.

On behalf of the Government, I warmly welcome the initiative of the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights to assist in the review of legislation. However, I accept this is a challenge and it will be taken on, as the Minister has stated clearly. The Garda Commissioner and his senior colleges have already had a high level conference. We will deal with this issue as quickly as we can.

Mr. Kenny

The response from the Taoiseach is completely inadequate. What he said presumes we are in a position to catch these criminals and that they are getting off with sentences which are too light.

The late James Dillon used to speak about the badge of honour on the caps of gardaí. They are all citizens have to protect them and they must be given the resources necessary to do their job. Unfortunately, in the case of this Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, it is as if he has woken up like Rip Van Winkle and missed the inter-generational change in the crime culture. He is a Minister who, unfortunately, has trampled on the pride and morale of the Garda on a number of occasions in the last 12 months. He rightly praised the gardaí who captured those who shot a publican in this city but he has done down the pride and morale of others.

What will the Taoiseach do, as leader of the Government, with the Ministers for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Defence and Finance, to see that the Garda gets the resources and the authority it needs to deal with these criminal gangs now? We have been living in a fantasy world about which he has been well warned. A programme on national television has said there are 40 criminal gangs operating in this city and the price of a life, or the cost of a death, is €5,000.

Mr. Deasy

€500.

Mr. Kenny

We have been removed from reality.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has gone long over his time.

Mr. Kenny

A cornerstone of the Taoiseach's strategy should be the setting up of a special criminal operations unit to deal with organised crime and to take on these people so that citizens can feel comfortable that the Government is responding to reality and not living in a fantasy world.

The Taoiseach

I have no great disagreement with Deputy Kenny on this issue. We will have 12,200 gardaí as soon as the present recruitment is completed. We have approximately €1 billion in resources and well over 1,000 extra prison places. We have good criminal legislation, although perhaps when challenged and something happens, we will have to look at it. It is a combination of tough law, good resources and well trained and well motivated gardaí. Anything the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has done is to help the reform and updating of the Garda and to give it more technology.

Public opinion is also important. Too often people are soft on crime and when gardaí go out to tackle crime, people line up to say the gardaí over-reacted. We saw that a few years ago with demonstrations. People jump up and down and abuse—

Mr. Gormley

He over-reacted.

The Taoiseach

Yes, and he suffered for it. However, we must defend them. We cannot ask 12,200 gardaí to have the best handwriting skills in the world. That is not what gardaí are about, taking names and addresses. They have to be tough. If we are serious about it, we have to let them get on with the job. They have to be tough about the job. They cannot take on a crowd of gangsters and criminals with their peann luaidhe. That is not the game we are in.

An Ceann Comhairle

Taoiseach, your minute has concluded.

The Taoiseach

If we in this House are serious—

Mr. Timmins

Let them off.

The Taoiseach

—let us be consistent.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach

Let us take on the criminals and back the Garda. That is what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is good at and let us support him in his job.

Ms Harney

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Rabbitte.

Mr. Durkan

It is disgraceful.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption.

Mr. Allen

What about the 2,000—

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak.

Mr. Rabbitte

I want to ask the Taoiseach about the report taken on 5 March of this year by the Minister for Transport from PricewaterhouseCoopers. The Minister commissioned the report on Aer Rianta. The purpose of the report was to compare running costs on the basis of the status quo with running costs on stand alone projections for the independent airports. Having read the report I appreciate that for reasons of commercial sensitivity the Minister would not want to put it completely into the public domain, but I am amazed he has not brought its conclusions to the attention of SIPTU in its negotiations about the future of Aer Rianta because they are quite striking.

The report concludes that Shannon Airport is not viable as a stand alone airport and that Cork Airport would be a serious loss maker. It concludes that there would be incremental additional costs imposed because of the imposition of stand alone status on the individual airports.

There is the related issue of so much of the debt –€250 million – being denominated in bonds. The bond holders would be of the opinion as a result of this that they would be moving from a risk free environment to a riskier one, on the basis of which expert advice suggests to me that the cost of borrowing could rise by as much of 2%. Given that they were the conclusions of a report commissioned by the Minister to compare the status quo, as it is called in the report, with the new stand alone projections and since they are presumably the opposite of what he wanted, why is the Government still going ahead with its original plan?

The Taoiseach

The Government made a policy decision after much discussion on the splitting of the three airports into independent entities. We believe that is in the best interest given our conclusions of the examinations and the reports undertaken by the Minister, some of which have been mentioned by Deputy Rabbitte. The Minister and the Government discussed this at length and it was our considered view that we should give the airports autonomy to allow them to grow, to deal with regional issues which arise and which are different in every area and that the airports would have a far healthier future.

Cork Airport is a fine airport and is undergoing huge expansion and investment by the State. It is well capable of being able to stand alone and to make profits into the future. With all the difficulties in Shannon, the changes in the stopovers – those which have taken place and those which are still under deliberation in terms of European Union law – the industry in the region being unhappy with the flights and the autonomy to organise flights in and out of the airport, Shannon Airport also wants an opportunity to work on its own. Dublin Airport is doing extraordinarily well with Aer Rianta handling approximately 15 million passengers, which will rise to 20 million in this period. It should have the capacity to take on the debt and continue to work into the future.

That has been the consideration of the Government. We believe in the three airports standing alone, driving forward on their own and that the combined effort of the three will be far bigger than their individual positions. The Minister has gone ahead with that policy decision which the Government made. One of the boards has been announced and the other two will be announced in the coming weeks. We have many difficulties with which to deal in respect of Aer Rianta but that is the policy position.

Mr. Rabbitte

I know the Taoiseach has decided to go ahead but the question asked was the basis on which he decided to go ahead. The Minister decided to commission the report. Aer Rianta was sent scurrying to provide the figures. The consultants came back with conclusions which did not recommend themselves to the Minister, he ignored them and the Taoiseach proceeded. On what basis did the Taoiseach decide to proceed? The Minister felt he had to have consultants' advice, which he got, but which was not the advice he wanted. Why did the Taoiseach proceed?

This is manifestly an ideological decision politically driven by the Minister. The loss making Cork Airport will end up in the ownership of the Taoiseach's friend, Mr. O'Leary. The bond holders who had the security of the total company, Aer Rianta, the Great Southern hotels, the international company – I am sorry for mentioning Michael O'Leary. The Taoiseach must not go off at a tangent and tell me he is no friend of his—

The Taoiseach

The Deputy said he was a friend of mine.

Mr. Rabbitte

—and that he published foul advertisements about the Taoiseach dithering. No one would ever accuse the Taoiseach of dithering.

The Taoiseach

I heard Deputy Rabbitte set him up.

Mr. Aylward

Does Deputy Rabbitte agree with him?

Mr. Rabbitte

He should not go off at that tangent. Why was the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which was commissioned by the Minister and which made definite conclusions, ignored by the Government? Are there other reports in existence which we do not know about? Has a business case ever been made for the break-up of the three airports? No business plan has ever been presented either to management of local airports or to SIPTU, the trade union involved. On what basis did the Government decide to go ahead?

The Taoiseach

There are other reports and examinations. I understand from the Minister that all the studies and reports will be made available to both sides in the discussions which the Minster has begun and which will continue over the next month. The Minister has stated this previously. The discussions are not on policy but on related issues.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will he make the reports available?

The Taoiseach

He will make the reports and the cases available to both sides.

Mr. Rabbitte

Who authored the other reports?

The Taoiseach

The Minister will make all these issues available to both sides in the discussions.

It is the Government's considered opinion that local and regional autonomy should be encouraged and airports allowed to grow capacity and look at new markets. A decade ago no one thought Dublin Airport's capacity would grow beyond 6 or 7 million passengers. In the United Kingdom there are many airports which had been far smaller than Shannon or Cork and which have turned around and become successful operations. This is an opportunity for Shannon and Cork to grow. There is huge regional support for this.

I understand staff concerns. The Minister is engaged in discussions and I have been engaged in discusions during the year. We will continue to deal with the matter. It is in the interest of regional autonomy to allow these airports to grow in the future.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

When the Dáil resumed in September the Government chose the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill as its flagship Bill in its list of proposed legislation. In February, on the Adjournment, I raised the disastrous cost of insurance cover and the damaging effect it is having on all aspects of business, social and economic life. The Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, responded on behalf of the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and said the Tánaiste regarded insurance reform as her number one political priority.

Since that time another Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, advised us that the Personal Injuries Assessment Board would have no effect on insurance costs. There are reports that the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Finance are also opposed to the Bill.

Mr. Rabbitte

Where is Willie? He must be mediating.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Given that the Bill is, allegedly, so dear to the Tánaiste, is it now a dead duck? While the Cabinet squabbles about this Bill, what action is being taken to address the exorbitant demands of the insurance companies and the effect they are having on the economy?

Is the Taoiseach aware of the devastating effect of insurance costs on jobs and that jobs are being lost? Is he aware of the effect it is having on sporting, voluntary and community groups which are having to scrap their activities because insurance cover is beyond their reach? As a sporting person, the Taoiseach must be aware of the effect the cost of insurance cover is having. In my constituency a senior citizens' group in Cootehill in County Cavan is being forced to provide its own insurance cover to access a day-care centre operated by the health board. Is that not also a scandal?

Will the Taoiseach take on the insurance companies and is he prepared to introduce price controls on insurance premiums?

The Taoiseach

I am sure Deputy Ó Caoláin has been following the work of the Government, and particularly of the Tánaiste, in this matter over the last 15 months or so.

Mr. Rabbitte

It has been six years.

The Taoiseach

It is a major issue. Everyone is well aware of the effects of high insurance on employment and on sporting and community groups. That is why the Tánaiste has made it her number one priority to deal with this issue.

There is no argument about the legislation. I stated yesterday in reply to a Fine Gael Deputy that the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill would be published in about a week. There is related legislation which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform hopes to complete shortly after Christmas.

The Central Statistics Office reported last week that insurance costs are coming down because of the related action. Of course the industry is putting forward its case for protection. The Government is going ahead with its proposals. We believe they are justified and right, are bringing down the cost of insurance and will bring them down further.

There have been reports that resources are not available. Resources are available. Deputy Ó Caoláin will have the opportunity to speak on the legislation in the House very shortly.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

When he responded to me last February the Minister of State, Deputy Lenihan, indicated that the Tánaiste was "willing to be benchmarked on this issue". Is it not the case that we have had zero productivity from the Tánaiste and the Government on this issue since then? Has it not been continually argued that price control in insurance cover is something with which the EU would interfere and that the Government has not taken on the real task of challenging the EU and seeking to effect change at that level in order that effective price control can be introduced, not only in this country but in any of the member states? Price control is what is needed to arrest the steady increase in premiums that people are having to accept.

What does the Taoiseach say to young drivers, particularly in areas of the country where there is no public transport, who cannot afford their own cars to go to work, to small businesses, many of which have gone out of operation because of high insurance costs, or to sporting, community and voluntary groups which cannot carry out their full raft of activities because of public liability insurance and all that that entails?

The Taoiseach

I am sure the Deputy supports the measures the Government is taking because everything he has said is in support of our efforts of the last 15 months, which the Tánaiste has been driving.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What are they?

The Taoiseach

Insurance rates are falling, although not fast enough. Price control is prohibited under EU law.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Is the Taoiseach addressing that issue?

The Taoiseach

We must continue to reduce the number of false claims and there has been a substantial drop in those this year. Court awards have moderated and that is to be welcomed. We need more competition. New competitors in the market will help to drive down prices. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill will be published in about a week's time and the related legislation will be published soon by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Central Statistics Office has already reported that premiums are coming down. We want to see more of that and we must work to achieve it. The proposed legislation will help to do that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the full Cabinet support the Taoiseach?