Vol. 574 No. 2
98 Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Education and Science if he has satisfied himself with the Hibernia course in teaching; the way in which the participants are policed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26527/03]
Hibernia College made an application to the Higher Education and Training Awards Council, HETAC, for validation of its graduate diploma in primary education in the format prescribed, setting out the programme objectives and outcomes, structure and outline content, assessment arrangements for learners, and facilities and staff expertise available.
The role of HETAC is to establish policies and criteria for the making of higher education and training awards and the validation of programmes, to determine the standards of knowledge skills and competencies to be acquired by learners for an award, to make or recognise awards, and to monitor the quality of programmes, ensuring that providers have procedures for assessment of learners which are fair and consistent.
A panel of assessors examined the documentation and visited the college. The programme accreditation committee of HETAC considered their report and accredited the programme, subject to all the conditions set by HETAC being met, including those relating to quality assurance. A certificate of course approval was issued in July 2003.
As the designated authority for recognition of qualifications for the purposes of employment for the regulated profession of primary teacher, I have decided to recognise the qualification of graduate diploma in primary education of Hibernia College for the purpose of employment as a primary teacher provided all the conditions set by HETAC are met, including those on quality assurance.
As part of the course, students will be engaged in teaching practice for a period of 14 weeks. A percentage of the students will be inspected by my Department's inspectorate in keeping with a standard formula applied to other providers.
On what basis has the Minister decided to recognise the qualification to allow people to teach? Does he rely solely on the fact that HETAC validated it or does he apply other stringent hoops, so to speak, through which the college must go before the qualification is recognised?
I believe there is no cap on the numbers attending Hibernia College. Does the Minister intend to introduce a cap or can he do so? Will this development affect the graduate diploma courses of other colleges, on which, I believe, there is such a cap? Does the Minister envisage a situation arising where all graduate diplomas will be done on-line?
The basis on which I gave my recognition to this was largely the fact that the higher education body set up to establish the policies, criteria, etc., and to recognise third level courses did its job and made the recommendation in this regard. My only role in this was to recognise it for employment purposes. People could have done this course in any case. Had I not recognised it for entry to teaching, the course could have proceeded and people could have taken their chances. However, based on the HETAC approval and recommendations, following which a number of conditions were attached to the course, I recognised it for teaching purposes. The minimum requirement for the course applicants would be a degree.
There is no cap on the numbers on the course. This is a commercial venture. I have no role in saying how many are enrolled in such courses. I am sure the market will decide that after a while. If too many primary teachers are produced as a result of this course and the others available, market forces will decide that there will not be jobs for them and people will not pay fees of €5,500 to obtain a qualification which would not be of much use to them. The market will decide that.
The graduate diplomas which have been running in colleges in recent years will continue this year. They are always decided on an annual basis. An assessment is made of the vacancies that may be within the primary teaching sector and the number of places on the graduate diploma are decided on that basis. It will proceed this year in colleges.
I am alarmed by the Minister's use of the term "commercial venture" and statement that he therefore does not have control over the numbers enrolled. Who has control over the numbers and ensuring adequate provision is made for the practical aspect of the course? Any number of people can complete the on-line part, but surely the practical subjects so important to primary teaching and the hands-on aspect of the training of primary teachers cannot be thrown to commercial ventures to do as they will. Will there be ongoing monitoring of this by the Minister, HETAC or whoever?
The Minister stated that the course was approved in July. When was the application submitted? In other words, how long was the process of approval?
Has the Minister a role in the use of education centres for this course run by Hibernia College? I understand these are being used and they are obviously publicly-funded.
How does this approval square with a report commissioned by the Minister's Department, entitled Preparing Teachers for the 21st Century, which recommended the extension of the postgraduate course from 18 months to two years to prepare teachers more adequately? Does it make sense that the Minister is allowing a part-time Internet course on the one hand while, on the other, his Department is calling for more skills?
We acknowledge that one in ten primary school teachers are temporary. Does the Minister agree that, rather than opting for an ill-considered and half-baked course on which there was poor consultation, as this seems to be and let them prove otherwise, one way to ensure there are properly skilled teachers in the classrooms would be to examine the Irish language requirement in the recruitment of more teachers from Northern Ireland, for example, some of whom find it a major barrier?
I concur with Deputy O'Sullivan because the practical side of teaching is the most important aspect in preparing teachers for the future.
Who is policing the system? Does the Minister know who is taking part in this on-line course? If not, who knows? Perhaps "vetting" is not the best word to use. Does the Minister know exactly who is doing the course? A paedophile could do it. While I do not wish to make accusations about people, someone unfit for teaching young children could enrol on this course. We should nip this in the bud, rather than discovering in six or seven months that certain people on this course are not fit to teach.
People's main concern relates to whether the quality of teachers undergoing this course will be undermined. Does the Minister share the genuine concerns of students who recently protested outside the House about the way this course is being run? Has he investigated the position regarding the course?
I am rather surprised by some of the comments made by Deputies in respect of this matter. The course is exactly the same as that run in the colleges at present and offers practical teaching experience. I suggest that the Deputies contact HETAC or Hibernia College and request further details about the course before making wild statements. I understand that between 40% and 50% of the course is delivered on-line, while the remainder is delivered through tutors. As with the postgraduate course, it offers practical experience. I have heard a great deal of nonsense about it taking three years to qualify from St. Patrick's College while people will now be able to qualify in 18 months. That is similar to comparing apples with oranges. There is an 18-month postgraduate course given by the colleges at present, and this is an 18-month course. Instead of people from Donegal, Kerry etc. being dragged away from home, they can access some of their tutorials and course work on-line. These individuals must, like everyone else, gain practical teaching experience and they are subject to the same level of inspection as teachers who qualify from St. Patrick's College, Mary Immaculate College or elsewhere.
I was not surprised to hear the comments made earlier on phone-ins to radio shows, but I would expect more from Deputies.
It is our duty to ask questions.
Yes, but Deputies do not have a duty to talk about—
The Minister did not answer the questions we asked.
The Deputy should try to make the statements he made about the course outside the House. I answered the question regarding the control of numbers. However, I reiterate that there is no control of numbers in respect of this course. There is a shortage of primary school teachers at present and we expect it to continue for a couple of years. This course will be useful in terms of ensuring that by 2005 we will be able to meet my aim and that of the teacher unions that unqualified teachers will not be involved. The course offers practical, hands-on experience and involves ongoing inspection. I cannot answer the question in respect of when it was submitted. I understand that it might have been submitted early last year, perhaps April or May, for consideration by HETAC.
With regard to the use of education centres, such centres are entitled to make their own decisions regarding this matter. I understand that they are being paid for the use of their facilities. Education centres are there for the use and benefit of teachers, parents and anyone else, provided they are used for an educational purpose.
The policing of the system is exactly the same as that which applies to the postgraduate courses offered in the colleges. I understand that approximately 90% of the people on the course are currently teaching at second level or are working as unqualified teachers at primary level.
I do not know whether I should even answer the question relating to paedophiles on the course. I do not know whether—
I did not state that there are paedophiles on the course, and I would like the Minister to withdraw that comment.
I said that I did not know whether I should make a comment about paedophiles on the course. I did not state that the Deputy indicated that such people were on it. However, the Deputy raised the possibility in an attempt to scare everybody. I do not know—
The Minister is playing politics.
The Minister is playacting and trying to waste time.
The Minister, without interruption.
—whether there are paedophiles doing courses anywhere in Ireland. I do not believe it is my job to halt courses or stop them being offered because I suspect that a paedophile may wish to undergo such a course. That is a ridiculous statement.
99 Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Science if there will be an intake of students in February 2004 to study for a graduate diploma in primary education in Mary Immaculate College and St. Patrick's College; the number of students he expects to sanction in these courses; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [26483/03]
The graduate diploma course is a full-time course run to enable third level graduates to train as primary teachers. The course was introduced as a response to a shortage in the supply of primary teachers. It was first provided in the 1995-96 academic year in four of the colleges of education and has been repeated on a number of occasions since then. The most recent course commenced in February of this year. My Department has requested the colleges of education to provide another course to commence early in 2004.
I understand that, since I tabled the question, the Minister made an announcement about this matter in recent days. Perhaps he will answer the other part of the question which relates to the number of students he expects to sanction in these courses. There might be no harm in referring to the reply to the previous question which apparently indicates that an unlimited number can take the course offered by Hibernia College. I presume the number who will take the courses offered by the training colleges will be determined by the ability of the colleges to deal with certain numbers. This will be particularly relevant with regard to the practical subjects which take up a great deal of the time of students at both St. Patrick's College and Mary Immaculate College. Will the Minister indicate the amount of time required for practical subjects? I accept that I cannot ask about Hibernia College, which we have just discussed, but this issue is relevant to both questions.
No new buildings have been put in place at Mary Immaculate College in 25 years and it is experiencing serious difficulties as a result in terms of accommodation. The college authorities want to be able to develop these courses further, particularly in light of the shortage of primary school teachers, but it faces a major crisis in respect of accommodation. I do not know if the Minister can indicate whether funding will be provided for the building programme at Mary Immaculate College, which was supposed to be top of the agenda before the third level budget was frozen.
The decision in respect of these courses proceeding is taken on the basis of calculations and projected requirements. There is an ongoing assessment, on an annual basis, of teachers' supply and demand needs. Those projected requirements are arrived at by taking a range of factors into consideration. I refer here to retirements, improvements in the PTR, special new posts in areas such as disadvantage or special needs, career breaks, job-sharing etc. When these are taken into account, a decision is taken on the number of places to be made available on postgraduate courses. This is the first occasion on which I have officially announced that these courses will be put in place.
I thought I read it in the newspapers.
The Deputy may have done so but I did not officially announce it. I will not say who may have announced or referred to it. I accept that a statement was made to the newspapers but I did not make it. This is the first official confirmation in respect of the courses.
The Minister, Deputy Dempsey, may be the first Minister to make an announcement about something of that nature in the House for a long period.
Accommodation is a separate question. There is nothing to stop the colleges of education doing what Hibernia College has done and providing some of their courses on-line. I would welcome that kind of competition.
The numbers are determined each year by what we perceive will be the shortage or the necessity. As a result of the increased number of students we have allowed into the teacher training colleges in recent years, 1,400 are to graduate next year and I hope that by the end of the 2004-05 academic year we will have fully qualified teachers in all primary schools.
Does the Minister envisage the presentation of all graduate diplomas on-line? How many students will be sanctioned in 2004? Does he envisage all teacher training courses going on-line? Will this mechanism become the norm for teacher training? Does he agree peer interaction on courses is important for the development of teachers and that such interaction will be reduced substantially because of the on-line development?
I do not have a problem with the delivery of courses on-line but I do not envisage that all teacher training will be presented on-line. The question relates to a postgraduate course and many of those who have taken up the course thus far have worked at second level. I do not have an objection to everybody doing the course on-line but I do not expect that to happen in the postgraduate area.
I accept that in teaching and other professions peer interaction is important. The course provides for this through tutorials in education centres, 14 weeks of practical teaching experience and time spent in the Gaeltacht. That will allow interaction to take place. Interaction in the staff room while practical work is undertaken is also important. It is expected there will be 280 places on the postgraduate course this year.
The Minister did not reply to my question on the building programme at Mary Immaculate College, Limerick. The college has room for 800 students but it caters for 2,300 full-time students.
I refer the Deputy to my earlier reply regarding the third level building programme, which is subject to the review being carried out by the HEA.
