Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 2 Dec 2003

Vol. 576 No. 1

Other Questions. - Social Welfare Benefits.

Joe Costello

Ceist:

62 Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the total number of persons receiving assistance from the MABS in respect of the latest date for which figures are available; the number who were in receipt of the supplement payable to persons on social welfare allowance; if her attention has been drawn to the concerns expressed that the abolition of this supplement may push people into the hands of illegal moneylenders; if she will reconsider the decision to abolish the supplement; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [28940/03]

Mary Coughlan

Subject to certain conditions, any person in the State whose means are insufficient to meet their needs may be entitled to assistance under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. The SWA scheme is administered on behalf of my Department by the health boards.

The objective of the scheme is to meet immediate, short-term income maintenance needs. The scheme is not intended to be a long-term ongoing solution in any individual case. My Department has overall responsibility for the money advice and budgeting service, MABS, which provides assistance to people experiencing indebtedness. There are 52 independent companies nationwide operating the service. The key feature of the MABS programme is the provision of money advice, including the publication of information on money management and debt counselling.

The service is targeted primarily at individuals and families who have problems with debt or moneylending and who are on low income or in receipt of social welfare payments. The service places an emphasis on practical, budget-based measures that succeed in removing people permanently from dependence on moneylenders and open up alternative sources of low cost credit.

In 2003, I have provided €9.9 million for the operation of the MABS service. The latest information available from the companies providing the service shows that some 12,000 people are currently availing of the service.

Separate from these arrangements, ongoing weekly payments known as MABS supplements have been paid under the SWA scheme. A total of 371 people currently receive these payments. Payments have been made in these cases because the people concerned have entered into repayment arrangements that are so onerous that they do not have enough income left to meet their basic needs.

This is unrealistic, it is not sustainable and providing a weekly SWA payment is not the solution. Creditors will have to accept a more realistic repayment arrangement that does not impoverish the debtor.

I am aware that concerns have been expressed over the withdrawal of this supplement. As I have previously stated, the objective of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme is to meet immediate, short-term income maintenance needs. The scheme is not intended to be a long-term solution in any individual case.

Over 50% of MABS recipients have been in receipt of the supplement for more than a year and nearly 25% of recipients have been in receipt of the supplement for more than two years. The duration of these payments confirm that the supplement has in effect become a long-term arrangement which is effectively a subsidy for creditors.

It is with the support and expertise of the MABS companies throughout the country that people can be best assisted in sorting out their debts and these companies will continue to provide their services after the withdrawal of the MABS supplement under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme.

Mr. Penrose

I suggest to the Minister that the figures she has given are an indictment in terms of the difficulties people are experiencing. Those are the people who will be hit directly, regardless of what the Minister says. I suggest this is a cruel cut. What about the people who have negotiated deals with creditors to try to keep their homes and meet their various debts? Where will they go? Will those creditors extend credit for a period or will these people end up in the hands of moneylenders? We have to be concerned about that because that could be a consequence of the Minister's action, although I know she would not like to see that happen. A large array of people have benefited from this service. Approximately 10,000 or 12,000 people use the money advice and budgeting service, which is worthwhile and we should support it. I acknowledge the Minister has supported it with a provision of €10 million—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's one minute has concluded.

Mr. Penrose

Is it not the position that a system has been put in place by MABS to deal with many of those debts?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I remind the House that there is a one minute time limit on supplementary questions.

Mr. Penrose

If the Minister is concerned that MABS will become a long-term crutch, is there a possibility that she would introduce an alternative scheme to allay the fears of people who are genuinely concerned?

Mary Coughlan

There have been huge changes in MABS. We have negotiated with the credit unions, which are very much to the fore in supporting people, and An Post and many other creditors have been more than helpful. That is a reflection on the MABS people who are voluntary workers and have been exemplary in the way they have helped those with indebtedness.

Mr. Penrose

Agreed.

Mary Coughlan

With regard to those who are on supplement, they will be fine this year. For those whose circumstances merit a payment, that will be facilitated under an exceptional needs payment.

Mr. Boyle

Did the Minister indulge in prior consultation with MABS on a national level on the likely impact of this decision before she made it? Has she since received representations from MABS offices throughout the country on the effect of this decision or on any of the other cuts she is proposing? I received a letter today, which I believe has been forwarded to her Department, from the Cork MABS, which was the area where MABS was first piloted and where it has been hugely successful. I would like the Minister to comment on the critical comments from people on the ground within the MABS system who are not happy with the proposals she is making.

Mr. Ring

Does the Minister not believe that we are pushing these people to moneylenders? The point of setting up the MABS was to keep people away from moneylenders. We are approaching Christmas and temptations are everywhere for people. Advertisements are being put into letterboxes offering them this, that and the other, but MABS worked with those who had difficulty controlling their finances. I would be concerned that this measure will push people towards moneylenders and we do not want to give them any more business. They should be taken out of existence if at all possible.

Mary Coughlan

I would not indulge myself in anything, but I had the opportunity to speak with my officials in the Department who have responsibility for MABS. It should be remembered that I provide all the money for MABS but they are voluntary organisations and they are totally independent. I received representations, which I am examining, from the south and I will be taking those into consideration before I finalise my decision on a number of these schemes. As I indicated, however, where particular hardship is experienced, people will be facilitated through exceptional needs payments, but I do not want to see people in such huge indebtedness that they cannot manage. Our support for the scheme has included the provision of additional funding and, since I became Minister, there a MABS service has been set up in every part of the country. The last place to be looked after was my own town.

Trevor Sargent

Ceist:

63 Mr. Sargent asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if her Department has instructed the Department of Health and Children and the various health boards to instruct community welfare officers to be less flexible in the payment of supplementary welfare allowance; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [29024/03]

Thomas P. Broughan

Ceist:

109 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if her attention has been drawn to the serious concern expressed by the trade union representing many community welfare officers regarding the implications of the series of cuts announced by her on 13 November 2003; if, in view of the experience of CWOs on the ground in dealing with those on low incomes, she will reconsider these cuts; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [28939/03]

Mary Coughlan

I propose to take Questions Nos. 63 and 109 together.

Subject to certain conditions, any person in the State whose means are insufficient to meet his or her basic needs may be entitled to assistance under the terms of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. The scheme is administered on behalf of my Department by the community welfare officers in the health boards, and neither I nor my Department have any function in deciding entitlements in individual cases.

The legislation that underpins the SWA scheme provides that it shall be administered under my general direction and control, which is exercised through primary legislation, regulations and instructions issued to health boards. There is specific provision in the legislation for the use of discretion on the part of the boards. This flexibility is a very important aspect of the SWA scheme and I have not amended that in any way. I can confirm to the House that I have not instructed health boards to be less flexible in the payment of supplementary welfare allowance.

As the Deputies are aware, I announced a number of policy measures on the SWA scheme when the Estimates for 2004 were announced. I am well aware of the concern expressed by the trade unions representing community welfare officers about these measures. My Department holds quarterly meetings with both SIPTU and IMPACT trade unions which represent superintendent CWOs. The most recent meeting took place last Thursday at which the union representatives expressed their views on the changes being made and discussed those changes with officials of my Department. Ultimately, however, it is a matter for the Government to bring forward changes to the scheme where we consider they are necessary. My officials will discuss further with the staff involved the details of how the various measures will be implemented.

My Department has regular contacts at various levels with the community welfare service. These contacts range from daily telephone and e-mail exchanges to informal meetings as well as more formal structured meetings. Monthly meetings take place between officials of my Department and managers of the community welfare service.

All the measures I have introduced have been carefully considered and evaluated. The measures are designed to ensure that supplementary welfare allowance is paid in appropriate circumstances, in accordance with established policy, and takes into account the objectives of the scheme, which is to focus on meeting immediate, short-term income maintenance needs. In the implementation of these measures, particular care will be taken to ensure that the interests of vulnerable groups such as the homeless, the elderly and people with disabilities are fully protected.

Mr. Boyle

Will the Minister confirm that a letter has been issued by the principal officer in her Department responsible for the supplementary welfare section to the chief executive officers of all health boards requesting them to ask community welfare officers to be less flexible in the payment of supplementary welfare allowance, citing specific examples where her Department did not want payments to be made and stating that, where possible, such payments could be transferred to other Departments, for instance, if money was needed for emergency payments for the repair of roofs, housing repairs in general or transport to and from hospital in cases where no other direct payment was made? Does this not confirm the real concern community welfare officers would have if they were to operate directly within her Department because it is placing a restriction on their activities, which they do not operate under currently and which they do not wish to operate under in the future?

Mary Coughlan

I do not know what letters my principal officer sent to people but when I was appointed I examined the SWA scheme and I met the chief executives of the health boards for the first time. Their views were that it was not their money and they would continue to spend. I examined the areas where exceptional needs payments were made and I said that there were certain instances where exceptional needs payments should not have been paid because they did not reflect the scheme. What I am saying is that exceptional needs payments and flexibility will continue. They are part of the regulations and there has been no change in the way the scheme is to be implemented.

With regard to housing policy, sometimes that happens but the Deputy knows there are particular circumstances where somebody who is getting a grant may not be able to get a top-up or a loan from the credit union etc. I have no problem with people being facilitated, nor would anyone in the House have a problem with that. The regulations are in place. Directions are given on the implementation of the scheme. It is true to say that if other Departments pay, why should this Department pay, but in circumstances where people cannot be facilitated, there is no problem with an exceptional needs payment being made. I cannot answer the Deputy's question on a letter issued by a principal officer because I have not seen it, but I will speak to him.

Mr. Penrose

Is this an example of lack of co-ordination in Government more than anything else? The Minister is saying the problems arise in other areas and she has to fill the void. Before announcing these measures there should have been co-ordination between the Departments and agencies in this matter.

The Department is drafting directions to define and constrain to a straitjacket the discretion of community welfare officers. Does this not mean in practice that they will no longer act on a discretionary basis? What will be the extent of the review? Will community welfare officers operate on the basis of generalised directions or instructions from the Department? Will they be so hamstrung that they have no power? Effectively, it will be game over for community welfare officers who will be put off the pitch as regards operating a number of schemes which, as the Minister stated, have become established or structured over the years. What will happen to those who wish to avail of such schemes?

Mary Coughlan

The flexibilities will remain. They are in primary legislation and will be exemplified in the regulations. Implementation is a matter for community welfare officers as I am not in a position, nor am I entitled, to instruct community welfare officers on how they may administer the scheme on an individual basis. This is the flexibility of the system and it will continue, a point which is made at our monthly meetings with superintendents.

I will not put a straitjacket on community welfare officers because they are among the only people in the public service available on weekends when people are most in need. They have been exemplary in the administration of many schemes and have taken a pragmatic and practical approach to dealing with issues. While the flexibility in the system will remain, abuses cannot be tolerated and I will address them.

Pádraic McCormack

Ceist:

64 Mr. McCormack asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs her plans in the current budget to facilitate full-time carers who are in receipt of other social welfare payments to be also eligible for the carer's allowance while they continue to be full-time carers; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [29058/03]

Jan O'Sullivan

Ceist:

80 Ms O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs her views on the recent call from the Carers Association for a charter of basic rights for carers; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [28959/03]

Brian O'Shea

Ceist:

88 Mr. O'Shea asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs when she intends to publish the promised consultation document on the future financing of long-term care; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [28958/03]

Finian McGrath

Ceist:

349 Mr. F. McGrath asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the position regarding schemes to assist the elderly; if she will investigate a plan for full parental leave to allow families to care for their elderly parents in the home; and if she will investigate other creative schemes to assist the elderly, for example, in Sweden, and to ensure they are rewarded for their positive contributions to society. [28980/03]

Bernard J. Durkan

Ceist:

361 Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs the extent to which she has examined the needs of carers with a view to expanding and improving the scheme; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [29307/03]

Mary Coughlan

I propose to take Questions Nos. 64, 80, 88, 349 and 361 together.

Support of carers in our society has been a priority of the Government since 1997. Payments to carers have been greatly improved in the period since, while qualifying conditions for carer's allowance have been significantly eased and coverage of the scheme has been extended and new schemes such as carer's benefit and respite grants introduced. The further development of supports for carers continues to be a priority for the Government.

Any change in provisions for carers in 2004 is a matter to be provided for in the budget. As regards the issue of payment of other social welfare payments concurrently with carer's allowance, the general rule is that only one social welfare payment is payable to an individual on the basis that the primary objective of the system is to provide an adequate level of income support to individuals and their families. Persons qualifying for two social welfare payments always receive the higher payment to which they are entitled.

Earlier this year, I launched a comprehensive study on the future financing of long-term care carried out on behalf of my Department. To make further progress in the area of policy on long-term care, my Department is preparing a consultation document which will aim to focus all interested parties on the specific issues we need to address. The production of this document is a challenging task due to the complexity of the issues involved and the need to ensure that these are communicated clearly to the various target audiences in the consultation process. These issues, which include benefit design, cost and financing, are discussed at length in the report.

I intend to have the consultation document distributed to all interested parties as early as possible in the new year, after which a consultation process on the financing of long-term care will take place. I envisage that the feedback from this process will be the starting point for meeting the commitment in Sustaining Progress on examining the strategic policy, cost and service delivery issues associated with the care of the elderly. I hope the working group to conduct this examination will be established in the first quarter of 2004.

With regard to a scheme of parental leave for the purpose of providing care, carer's benefit was introduced in October 2000. The associated Carer's Leave Act, which protects the employment rights of the carer, was introduced by my colleague, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, in July 2001. These arrangements provide financial support and allow carers to avail of job-protected leave of absence for a period of up to 15 months. Any further expansion of this type of leave for the purpose of providing care is primarily a matter for consideration by that Department.

I understand the proposed carers charter sets out carers' rights, including recognition of the role they play in society, the right to support in that role and, specifically, the right to support services from Departments. The rights provided for carers in social welfare legislation provide a solid foundation of support for them. The Government will continue to develop the type of services which provide real support and practical assistance to the people who carry out this essential service on behalf of people who need full-time care and attention and, in developing such supports, will have regard to the experience gained from the operation of services already in place, the views of public representatives and organisations working in this field and information on the arrangements operating elsewhere.

Mr. McCormack

While I thank the Minister for her long reply, with all due respect, it does not answer my question. The Minister stated that carers have been a priority for the Government since 1997. I have been raising the same question since 1997 and have not yet received a response. I have also made representations to three working groups established by the Government, wrote to the Minister's predecessor on several occasions and raised the matter during every budget.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask a question.

Mr. McCormack

I did not delay any of the other Deputies.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has no control in that matter.

Mr. McCormack

Will cases such as that which arose in my constituency be addressed in tomorrow's budget? Is it possible to correct the position in which a full-time carer, who was looking after a doubly incontinent relative of her husband in her home, suddenly found herself when her husband was killed in a road traffic accident, in that a week after the accident the woman received a widow's pension and lost her carer's allowance, despite continuing to act as a full-time carer of the relative of her deceased husband? Will this be rectified in the budget tomorrow? Having asked this question for six years, I demand action. I was ignored by the predecessor of the Minister, who is compassionate. What will be done in the budget tomorrow to address this serious anomaly?

Mary Coughlan

Caithfidh an Teachta fanacht go dtí tráthnóna amárach.

Mr. McCormack

I wrote to the Minister about this matter.

Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.