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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 2004

Vol. 582 No. 1

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take No. 9a, motion re consideration of report of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings; No. 18, Finance Bill 2004 — Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 1, Equality Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 9a shall be decided without debate, and the Report and Final Stages of No. 18 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance. Private Members’ business shall be No. 4, International Peace Missions Deployment Bill 2003 — Second Stage (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9a without debate agreed?

No, I seek additional information before agreeing to this. Will the Taoiseach indicate whether an investigation has been ordered by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform into reports that key files on the Dublin and Monaghan bombings were removed from Harcourt Square on the orders of a senior Garda officer and were subsequently found under the seat of a Garda car? These reports were highlighted in the Sunday newspapers. Will this matter be investigated urgently and will the results of the investigation be forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr. Justice Barron, and the Oireachtas committee investigating the findings of Mr. Justice Barron? I would like the Taoiseach to indicate this as a prerequisite to agreeing to this matter being allowed to proceed without debate.

The Deputy has made his point. I can pass on his comments to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Deputy can table a question to the Minister. I will pass on what he said but this motion asks the Dáil to extend the period in which the committee can report back to the House as it has scheduled more meetings and analysis. That is all I ask, but I will pass on the Deputy's comments.

Will the Taoiseach indicate that this should be investigated?

I will certainly pass it on.

We cannot have a debate on the matter. Is the Deputy agreeing to the proposal?

I agree to the proposal in the hope the Taoiseach will accede to my request.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 18 agreed?

No. As we have consistently done in recent months, we oppose a guillotine in this case. There is a particular reason I would like the amendment tabled in my party's name and that of others, on the consideration of the credit for amateur sportspersons to be debated in full. For that reason, I am opposed to this matter being rushed through.

The use of the guillotine has been debated in this House many times but if we were able to sit until 10 p.m. last night, I cannot see why we are not able to do so tonight in the interests of avoiding a guillotine on this Bill.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 18 be agreed."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 55.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Andrews, Barry.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Browne, John.
  • Callanan, Joe.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cregan, John.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Curran, John.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Tony.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Devins, Jimmy.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Glennon, Jim.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Hoctor, Máire.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kelly, Peter.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Mulcahy, Michael.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O’Connor, Charlie.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • O’Donnell, Liz.
  • O’Donoghue, John.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Keeffe, Batt.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • Parlon, Tom.
  • Power, Peter.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Sexton, Mae.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G. V.

Níl

  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connolly, Paudge.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Cowley, Jerry.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Cuffe, Ciarán.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Olwyn.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Harkin, Marian.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Padraic.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McHugh, Paddy.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Morgan, Arthur.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Murphy, Gerard.
  • Naughten, Denis.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Keeffe, Jim.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Penrose, Willie.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, Eamon.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Timmins, Billy.
  • Upton, Mary.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Broughan.
Question declared carried.

The vote we have just had concerned the Finance Bill. Members of the Gaelic Players Association are meeting across the road to discuss the matter of tax relief for amateur sports persons, which was down for discussion here. Most of the Fianna Fáil Deputies had their photographs taken with the players.

Do you have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

This is the Order of Business, a Cheann Comhairle, and it is very appropriate.

We have not got around to discussing the Finance Bill yet.

This is the Order of Business.

All those Deputies had their photographs taken on the basis that they support the Gaelic Players Association having a tax credit of €2,000 for themselves——

Do you have a question appropriate to the Order of Business, Deputy Kenny?

—and for other top sports persons, yet they have voted against allowing the matter to be discussed in the House. That is typical of them but it is not right.

It is an own goal.

A question on the Order of Business, please.

Following the Taoiseach's clarification yesterday that the heads of the Bill approved for the introduction of electronic voting, which were passed by the Government yesterday, will be debated here in a fortnight's time as part of a reintroduction of the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2000, a number of issues have arisen regarding the election process in general. When the Bill is reintroduced in its expanded form in a fortnight, will Members of the House have an opportunity to address the entire Bill or will the debate be confined only to the heads of the amended section, as passed by the Government yesterday? This is a matter of fundamental concern and we do not expect a guillotine to be imposed since Opposition Members, at least, will want to debate the matter fully.

Obviously, Members may discuss any part of a Bill that comes before the House.

What is the Taoiseach saying? We cannot hear him.

As usual.

If there were fewer interruptions, Members could hear the Taoiseach.

He just mumbled something but we did not hear him.

I think Deputy Kenny heard me.

I did not.

I call Deputy Rabbitte.

In fairness, a Cheann Comhairle, we did not hear him.

I am sorry but you were interrupting him.

You have already deprived me of a Whip, Sir, and now I cannot hear the Taoiseach. What is happening here?

He should repeat what he said.

I said that, obviously, any parts of a Bill that come before the House may be debated.

We cannot hear the Taoiseach.

We cannot hear the Taoiseach, Sir.

Do not tell me I have another problem on my hands.

(Interruptions).

We did not know he was a member of the army council too.

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply, Deputy McManus. If you wish to hear the reply, please keep silent.

That is exactly what I want.

Right, well keep silent.

Deputy Kenny asked me if only the sections concerning electronic voting would be debated but, as I said yesterday, almost the entire Electoral (Amendment) Bill has to be re-enacted. He asked me if the debate would be only on limited sections or on the entire Bill and I am stating, for the third time, that it will be on the entire Bill.

We thought the Taoiseach was trying to get away with something.

Irrespective of when we enact this promised legislation, will the Taoiseach tell the House before it rises for the St. Patrick's Day recess that he will not proceed to implement electronic voting for the forthcoming elections, as indeed was requested by all his tallymen? It was the only vox pop I have ever heard where everybody was opposed to it for a variety of reasons. Given the widespread disquiet outside the House, among the electorate, the Taoiseach’s own backbenchers and his supporters, what is the rush in proceeding with this on 11 June? If we cannot count the European ballot until Sunday evening, what is the point of electronic voting?

You have made your point, Deputy.

Whenever the legislation is to be introduced, will the Taoiseach tell the House that the Government will not proceed with electronic voting on 11 June?

I have no more to say. The Bill will be before the House in a few weeks' time.

Will the Taoiseach make up his mind then?

Will the Taoiseach join me in congratulating the people of Latvia in electing the first Green Party Prime Minister in Europe to head a coalition with the Union of Farmers and Christian Democrats?

Is the Deputy changing his vote on the Nice treaty now?

Does that mean "Yes" to the Nice treaty?

I refer to the level playing field for housing and the building control Bill. Fingal County Council is adamant that private and social housing should be built to the same standards in terms of space and so on. Could this issue be addressed under the building control Bill?

The substance of the Bill is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

The Bill will be introduced in the middle of the year.

That is another victory for the Technical Group and positivity.

Pandoro Limited is talking about withdrawing from the live export trade, which will make a farce of the EU Single Market and threaten the livelihoods of almost 100,000 cattle farmers in Ireland. When will the mercantile marine (amendment) Bill be taken so that this issue can be debated? The Minister for Agriculture and Food also wants to respond to the question.

I do not have a date. The heads of the Bill have been approved.

I thank the Taoiseach for his communication regarding the continental shelf Bill and his confirmation that it will be taken separately to the foreshore Bill. When will the Bills be introduced?

The continental shelf Bill will be introduced in 2004.

It is on the shelf.

The coastal zone management Bill will be incorporated in the marine services Bill. My latest information is that the Bill will be introduced in late 2004.

Deputy Naughten raised an important issue, which is the threat to live cattle exports. This trade is worth €200 million annually. In addition, the Minister for Agriculture and Food is chairman of the Council of Ministers and proposals have been made to ban staging posts in the EU.

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister to sort out these problems and to desist from engaging in soft photo opportunities? When will the land Bill be introduced?

This session.

Will that be before St. Patrick's Day? What about the difficulty with the live cattle trade? Opposition Members have been up and down non-stop raising this issue.

That issue does not arise. I call Deputy Upton.

The Minister is doing a good job on it.

What has he done? What about Spain?

It would be helpful if the Minister for Defence would not interrupt so that the House can hear Deputy Upton.

The Minister for Agriculture and Food said he would solve all the problems. There is complete silence.

What action does the Taoiseach propose to take to ensure the live cattle export trade will not be seriously hampered?

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

A short time ago, the Cheann Comhairle allowed a Private Notice Question regarding the deaths of people following an accident involving Dublin Bus. Yesterday, a parliamentary question regarding deaths on the Luas line was ruled out of order because the Minister for Transport claims he has no responsibility to the House. I protest the inconsistency of the ruling. People have died in my constituency. I am entitled to raise this issue.

If the Deputy wishes to discuss the matter——

This is a matter of life and death. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has raised the safety of Luas in his constituency and I have raised it in mine.

It is a matter for the Chair to rule in accordance with Standing Orders.

Two people died last week and another man fell off his bicycle last Friday.

If the Deputy wishes to discuss the ruling, he is welcome to come and discuss it in my office.

I am protesting the inconsistency of the ruling. I tabled a question for written reply

I call Deputy Gormley.

Given that Report Stage of the Road Traffic Bill is due since last April, I ask that it should be brought forward so that I can raise this issue. I am aghast that my question was ruled out of order.

The Deputy should resume his seat. I call Deputy Gormley.

I asked about Report Stage of a Bill. I do not like to be fobbed off. Two people died on the Luas rail line in my constituency and another man fell off his bike last Friday and could have been killed.

The Deputy has made his point. The Chair ruled on the matter and I ask him to obey the ruling. When will Report Stage be taken?

Amendments are still being considered and, therefore, I do not have a date.

On a point of order, Deputy Gay Mitchell is correct. He referred to an inconsistency.

The Chair has ruled on the matter. We cannot have a debate on it.

The Chair may have erred in its ruling. Deputy Gay Mitchell has raised a valid point.

The Chair has not erred on the ruling.

On one day a question on safety was valid but, on another, it was not. This has also happened to me today. Let us have consistency. If a question is ruled out for one person or group, it should be ruled out for everyone.

The Deputy will find there is consistency.

There is not consistency.

If the Deputy wishes to pursue this in the appropriate manner, he will be facilitated. He has made his point. I call Deputy Gormley, who has been patient.

I accept the Chair is calling Deputy Gormley and I am sorry to interrupt but this matter must be resolved once and for all.

I have been patient. The Minister for Health and Children has set up yet another task force, which will deal with obesity.

No. 163 and climbing.

When will the task force report? Will the House have an opportunity to debate it?

Yes, if the Deputy tables a question to the Minister for Health and Children, he will obtain the details in the first instance.

That is not an answer. When will the report be published?

In 12 months. The Deputy sought the task force.

It is yet another task force. The Minister did nothing with the task force report on alcohol.

It is not appropriate for the Minister for Health and Children to debate this issue.

Given that hospitals such as Temple Street Children's Hospital depend so much on charitable donations, when will the charities Bill be introduced so we can ensure that institutions that deserve money get it?

I call Deputy Sherlock.

The Ceann Comhairle is on automatic today. He has had a number of victories.

I do not see it that way.

With regard to the charities Bill, public consultation was formally launched on 16 February, with a deadline for responses of 28 May. The outcome of the consultation will be made public and it will inform the preparation of the draft legislation. The heads of the Bill are expected at the end of 2004.

Given the imprisonment of large numbers of people for the non-payment of fines, when will the enforcement of fines Bill be introduced to end imprisonment for such charges?

Work is at a preliminary stage of examination. I do not have a date for the legislation.

The Civil Liability and Courts Bill is expected to be published this session to amend the law on personal injuries cases and the in camera rule in family law cases. Can the Taoiseach confirm the Bill will be published this session and before the beginning of the next session, as committed to in the Government’s legislative programme?

The Bill was published on 13 February and Second Stage was ordered for 11 March.

Some time ago the Government indicated legislation would be introduced to amend the Electoral Acts, arising from the Kelly judgment. Since the entire Electoral (Amendment) Bill will be re-introduced, is it intended to address the issues raised in the Kelly judgment when it is presented or does the Government intend to introduce amendments on Committee Stage?

To the best of my knowledge, I gave the answer to the Deputy yesterday and that has not changed today. I said there would be no other changes to the Acts.

The Taoiseach will not get away with it a second time.

Will the Taoiseach take a second look at the social welfare Bill and ensure it complies with the Government's policy on poverty?

That does not arise on the Order of Business. Has the Deputy a question on legislation?

I have, the legislation is the social welfare Bill and——

What is the question on the social welfare Bill?

Does it comply with the poverty proofing policy which the Government has taken on board?

I suggest the Deputy submit a question to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs.

Unfortunately, a Cheann Comhairle, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs has not been in the Chamber for a number of weeks.

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