Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Mar 2004

Vol. 582 No. 4

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

Has the Government addressed the crisis of despair and hopelessness particularly among young people? The average number of suicides is now running at approximately 450, which is in excess of the number of people killed by road accident. The victims are, by a ratio of four to one, young males and 85% to 90% of those who commit suicide suffer at some stage from mental illness.

Professor Anthony Clare stated some time ago that the mentally ill are the most stigmatised group in our society, the lepers of today. Is the Tánaiste aware that last year more than 10,000 people, mostly young persons, presented at accident and emergency units having attempted suicide? This figure does not include those who did not present or who presented at general practitioners. Does this not indicate a colossal failure of Government to address a fundamental crisis of despair and hopelessness affecting the future generation?

What has the Government done about suicide? What programmes are in place to deal with it, in view of the fact that with regard to Australia, for instance, it is now internationally accepted that suicide rates have dropped by 30% as a result of the implementation of government programmes? Will the Tánaiste comment, on behalf of the Government, on what action is being taken and the reason for the colossal neglect of what Amnesty International described as the neglected quarter?

The Tánaiste

We all share Deputy Kenny's views on the level of suicide. Suicide among young males is increasing at a frightening rate and I suppose the saddest thing of all is that many young people who take their own lives do so without ever seeking assistance from experts who may be in a position to help them.

Increased resources are being put into the mental health area, whether in the school psychological service, the five new acute centres the Government has opened in the mental health area since 1997, or the additional funding of €1 million by way of revenue increases and €1 million by way of capital increases for the Central Mental Hospital. This in itself is not enough and we have also established the mental health policy review group but review groups and resources can only go so far.

The level of suicide among young people requires intervention in families and identification, probably through the school system. It also requires us, as a society, to be more open in order that young people and adults — suicide does not only affect young people and suicide incidence is high across population thresholds — who feel vulnerable are able to come forward and seek the assistance they require.

Various State services are available to people, whether directly or in the voluntary sector. Greater awareness is needed, perhaps through more open debate, something which has, thankfully, occurred in recent years. For many years, the issue of suicide was covered over. People did not want to talk about it or admit to it, and families and vulnerable people across all age groups were reluctant to come forward and seek assistance. This is changing, however slowly, and there is an onus on all of us in politics, particularly those of us in Government, to ensure that crisis facilities are available that the people in question will use and that will, I hope, dramatically reduce the level of suicide.

Nothing leaves a family more saddened than suicide. It leaves a terrible mark on families who for many years feel guilty, vulnerable and responsible when they should not. Society generally must be more open and responsive to the needs of vulnerable people in this category.

I share the views expressed by Deputy Kenny. As public representatives, we have become aware of the increasing incidence of suicide, which is an issue I hardly heard about at the start of my political career. One of the sad features of the past 20 years has been the huge increase in suicide among young people, as the Deputy stated, and among the population generally.

Mr. Kenny

While I accept the genuineness of the Tánaiste's feelings on this issue, the point is that she and the Government are in a position to do something about it. Just 7% of the health budget is spent on mental health. The targets set out in the 1984 mental health programme have still not been reached. There is no community health service of any real benefit offering the attention and assistance to which the Tánaiste refers.

The report of the national task force on suicide presented to the Minister for Health and Children in 1998 contained 86 recommendations. Very few of them have been implemented and those which have been implemented have been of minimal cost, yet at the same time we hear Ministers speak of expenditure of millions and billions on other projects.

Fundamental to our society is that every school, town, village, parish and street now has its own tale of trauma, tragedy and grief. I stood recently in a kitchen in a western county trying to absorb the confusion of parents whose 22 year old son hanged himself.

The Tánaiste is right that these matters were swept under the carpet for too long but we have the means to deal with them in the report of the national task force on suicide. She and the Government are in a position to do something. Will she now confirm that the Government will re-prioritise suicide, the 7% of health expenditure currently allocated to mental health will be significantly increased and the recommendations of the national task force on suicide will be implemented as a matter of urgency — not by setting up another strategy committee but by direct Government action?

The Tánaiste

While I acknowledge Deputy Kenny's concern in this area, it would be wrong to assume that resources alone could prevent suicide. We all must acknowledge that. That is not to say we cannot and should not do more and that we cannot make available the kind of expertise, assistance and guidance vulnerable people need which might prevent incidents of suicide and the loss suffered by the individuals involved and their devastated families.

As the Deputy will be aware, substantial increases in expenditure on health have been made in recent years. We now spend more than €10 billion on health annually. Much of the effort in regard to mental illness generally is about developing greater community facilities, moving away from institutional care. It was too easy in the past for people to be institutionalised. One of the awful hallmarks of our society in the past has been the high level of institutional care in this area. Community facilities and facilities supporting families in the community are what the Government wants to target.

In regard to health spending generally and health reform, this is an important area that deserves priority and I give the Deputy the assurance that it will get the priority it deserves. The Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, has visited many of the facilities. He has worked extraordinarily hard to try to bring reform and some fresh thinking to this area and, I hope, additional resources over time.

Mr. Rabbitte

Why has the Government decided to go after widows? They are one of the most vulnerable and defenceless groups in our society, yet the Government has chosen to implement a decision that imposes hardship on a group who have no voice and are electorally insignificant because they are scattered throughout the 42 constituencies. The Government has decided to remove the half-rate payment of unemployment benefit and disability benefit to which they are entitled when out sick or unemployed.

What is the justification for this decision? A little more than 2,000 people are affected by this measure to save €5.8 million when the Government has got just over €1 billion in moneys retrieved from tax evasion, more than €700 million in moneys from the DIRT inquiry alone, €25 million in the past three months, as reported by the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners last week and when the Government's revenue for the first two months is €430 million in excess of that forecast. What is the justification for this decision? The Minister who denied that there was ever any tax evasion is the beneficiary of €1,000 million. This is the Minister who could find €15.9 million for pony jumping at Punchestown and who found €157 million to clear the site at Abbotstown and repurchase land in his own constituency for the laboratories. This is the Minister who decided to pay lawyers at the tribunals an increase of €800 per day at the same time that he cut widows' entitlement to half-pay on social welfare and disability benefit. He decided to give those lawyers an increase of €800 per day while going down in a populist fashion to the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis claiming that he would intervene to stop the cost of tribunals. He approved that increase of €800 per day, but the Government decided to go after the widows and widowers of Ireland, people who have had the traumatic experience of losing a spouse and who must go out to work to support their families to keep bread on the table. The Government decided to save €5.8 million on their backs. It is a disgraceful decision and I ask the Tánaiste to commit herself today to reversing it.

Mr. S. Ryan

Shame on the Government.

The Tánaiste

I want to make it clear that there is no question of the Government going after widows as Deputy Rabbitte——

Mr. Stagg

It is going after them.

Mr. Howlin

It has gone after them.

The Tánaiste

Maybe the Members opposite could listen and give me an opportunity to respond. The highest spending of all Departments, notwithstanding the low level of unemployment in Ireland, is the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

Mr. Stagg

We will know about that when the Government is finished with it.

The Tánaiste

Listen to the facts for a moment.

Mr. D. Ahern

Listen to the facts.

The Tánaiste

We spend more than €11 billion per annum on social welfare. This year we increased spending by €750 million. Therefore, there is no question of cuts; we are spending more money than ever.

Mr. Ring

How much of that went out of the country?

Mr. Stagg

We did not see any sign of it.

The Tánaiste

We have an extraordinarily sympathetic and caring Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan.

Mr. Stagg

We do not see any sign of that.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to continue without interruption.

The Tánaiste

As she made it clear last night, all social welfare reforms are constantly kept under review. Where there are incidents of hardship or unfairness the Government will always respond.

Mr. M. Higgins

We will see about that at 8.30 p.m. this evening.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to continue.

Mr. Rabbitte

For a person listening to us this morning who has been widowed, who has lost her spouse, been forced to go back to work and who has to be out of work due to illness and who had been entitled to a half-payment in disability benefit, what is the relevance of telling her that the Government spends €11 billion on social welfare? What is the point in following the Taoiseach down this all-embracing defensive mechanism he has of rhyming off that the Government spends so many million euro? Some 2,000 widows and widowers are affected by this mean cut. The Minister poses for photographs with the National Association of Widows, giggles her way through "Morning Ireland", beguiles David Hanley and tries to come in here and do the same thing, when in fact she made this hard-hearted, harsh, mean, petty cut on people who cannot defend themselves. What is the point in going out and posing for photographs with the National Association of Widows and then coming back into the House and shafting them behind their backs? That is what she did. There is no point in a macro-economic lecture. These are cuts on real people who have already suffered in their lives. That is the issue.

Mr. M. Higgins

That is the issue.

The Tánaiste

It is not a macro-economic lecture to tell the Deputy that the rate of increase we have given to widows since 1997 is four times higher than anything the Government of which his party was a member did.

Mr. Ring

Go back to the war.

Mr. Durkan

Tell us about the Famine.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to continue without interruption.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputies opposite have poor memories.

Mr. Hogan

The Minister's memory is not too good either.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to continue without interruption.

Mr. D. Ahern

An increase of €1.50 is all that Government gave them.

Mr. S. Ryan

Remember Charlie's dirty dozen cuts.

Mr. Hogan

The Minister, Deputy Ahern, is not good at remembering. He could not recall something 47 times in the one day.

Mr. D. Ahern

Listen to the facts.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to allow the Tánaiste to continue.

The Tánaiste

We introduced for the first time a widowed parent grant in 1999 so we have done an extraordinary amount for widows because they are an important group and, in particular, in our social welfare system. The hallmark of any society is how it treats its most vulnerable.

Mr. Hogan

The Minister, Deputy Ahern, could not remember 47 times on the one day. He is giving bad value for money to the taxpayers.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Members to allow the Tánaiste to answer the question without interruption. Deputy Rabbitte who is entitled to do so submitted a question to the Tánaiste and she is entitled to answer that and Deputy Rabbitte and other Members are entitled to hear the answer. I ask Members on both sides of the House——

Ms Burton

The Minister, Deputy Ahern, keeps interrupting.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Hercule Poirot of the Fianna Fáil Party.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has already addressed the Minister, Deputy Ahern, and I ask Members on all sides of the House to allow the Tánaiste to continue without interruption.

Mr. F. McGrath

The Minister should solve the postal dispute.

The Tánaiste

The Minister, Deputy Coughlan——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Minister, Deputy Ahern, to desist.

The Tánaiste

The Minister, Deputy Coughlan, held a meeting yesterday with the widows association. It is clear that Deputies do not want a response.

Mr. Stagg

We just want an answer.

The Tánaiste

There is no point in wasting our time if they do not want a response, if this is all game-playing.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

Do Members want a response?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to continue without interruption.

The Tánaiste

The Minister, Deputy Coughlan met the widows association yesterday. I repeat she is a caring Minister who understands the needs of social welfare recipients.

Ms Lynch

So we are wronging her?

The Tánaiste

She met them to consult and listen to them.

Mr. Stagg

And told them to get stuffed.

The Tánaiste

It is a good thing when Ministers listen and consult.

Mr. Allen

We will know how well she listened to them at 8.30 p.m. tonight.

The Tánaiste

As I said earlier, the Government has always responded when hardship or unfairness is caused in any decisions made.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Last month, I asked the Taoiseach if Fianna Fáil had initiated a full investigation into the misappropriation of an estimated €500,000 in donations to that party, ostensibly made but which, importantly, did not find its way into party coffers.

Mr. J. Brady

What about the money from the bank in Navan?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

In his reply, the Taoiseach stated that——

Mr. D. Ahern

How come the SDLP spent just one tenth of the amount Sinn Féin did on the election in the North?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin to submit his question without interruption.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Fianna Fáil committee on ethics was precluded by the party from pursuing these matters until the tribunals had concluded and reported on their work. What is the Tánaiste's view of this strange decision by her partners in Government? Does she agree a political party should not investigate the misappropriation of its own funds pending the outcome of a tribunal's report, although the tribunal has nothing in its terms of reference which cover the matter of the misappropriation of party funding and cannot make findings in its report relevant to it?

For the Taoiseach to claim he received the advice of senior counsel——

Mr. O’Donoghue

The Deputy's party should have carried out a few investigations.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin without interruption.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——that Fianna Fáil must await the outcome of the tribunals strikes me as strange to say the least. Is the Tánaiste equally as incredulous of this advice as I and so many other Members are?

Mr. Cregan

The Deputy's party should investigate itself.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Does the Tánaiste recall that the Taoiseach confirmed to her in 1997 that, as she told the planning tribunal in May 1999, in June 1999 JMSE gave £30,000 to Ray Burke, only £10,000 of which went into Fianna Fáil coffers? Does the Tánaiste recall being subsequently told by the Taoiseach that the information he had given her was not accurate?

Why was it acceptable to the Tánaiste in 1997 to go into Government with a colleague in the position of Minister for Foreign Affairs who clearly had more interest in his own affairs than those of this State and its external relations?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has gone well over his two minutes and has now gone beyond three minutes. I ask the Deputy to give way to the Tánaiste.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Why was it subsequently also acceptable for the Tánaiste to continue in office with the Taoiseach who had clearly misled her at the time?

Mr. D. Ahern

How much money did Martin McGuinness get in America last week?

The Tánaiste

What I find incredible is the neck of Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Tánaiste answer me?

The Tánaiste

I am here to respond on behalf of the Government, not to comment on the funding arrangements of any party. That is not a matter for me in my position as Tánaiste.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Tánaiste is here as a spokesperson for the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy Ó Caoláin, allow the Tánaiste without interruption.

The Tánaiste

Exactly. I am here to speak for the Government. I am here to deal with Government business, not the private funds of any party, including other parties in Government. At a time when my party was accused of demanding heads between 1989 and 1992, virtually everyone in the country was critical of the role of the Progressive Democrats for being harsh and uncaring and constantly looking for resignations. It seems to me we can never get it right.

Mr. Durkan

The party has not been looking for enough resignations.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

If the Deputy's party lies down with dogs——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Ó Caoláin without interruption.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Tánaiste's relationship with the Taoiseach in the past seven years has taught her one lesson, namely, how not to answer a question on the floor of this House when it is put directly to her. She has refused not only to answer the questions of Members in the House but those which many throughout the country would like to put.

With whom in the Progressive Democrats did the Tánaiste discuss all the matters I referred to this morning? Did she discuss them with Deputy McDowell in his capacity as Attorney General during his term in office? Has she discussed these matters with him since in his role as president of the Progressive Democrats? Is it not the case that, contrary to the high moral ground which the Tánaiste and the Progressive Democrats like to claim, it amounts to nothing against the party's eagerness and anxiety to be in power for power's sake, which is the real driving force behind the party and the Tánaiste herself?

The Tánaiste

I will not take any lectures about morals or integrity from the Deputy or his party.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions.

Mr. D. Ahern

How did Sinn Féin spend ten times more than the SDLP on the Assembly election?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Can the Ceann Comhairle direct the Tánaiste to answer the question?

An Ceann Comhairle

Before coming to the Order of Business, I propose to deal with a number of notices under Standing Order 31——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Tánaiste has again refused to answer the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy I ask you to resume your seat. The Chair has no responsibility for the answers given by Ministers.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Are you not responsible?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. I am not responsible and I ask the Deputy to resume his seat or I will have to take appropriate action.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Whatever appropriate action you take, I ask that you——

Mr. D. Ahern

Why are there never any leadership crises in Sinn Féin?

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have to ask Deputy Ó Caoláin to leave the House if he does not resume his seat. If the Deputy does not resume his seat he will have to leave the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I will not give the Ceann Comhairle that satisfaction.