Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 2004

Vol. 595 No. 3

Private Members’ Business.

An Post: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Broughan on Tuesday, 14 December 2004:

That Dáil Éireann,

—recognising the critical importance of a vibrant universal public postal service;

—alarmed at the repeated failure of the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to clearly set out the Government position on the future of the universal postal service and to clarify the deep confusion on the financial outlook of An Post and its subsidiary, SDS;

—deeply dismayed by the refusal of An Post management to award the workers of An Post their due pay entitlements under Sustaining Progress and to pay the linked cost of living rises to the An Post pensioners;

—disappointed by the unilateral decision of An Post management to close the State SDS parcel and courier company without debate in this House and abandon a strategic recovery plan agreed with the workforce and its trade union representatives;

—noting the challenges posed to the An Post workers and management by the development of e-commerce and market deregulation; and

—opposed to any attempt to dismantle or privatise the universal public postal service;

calls on the Government to:

—ensure that the management of An Post immediately pays the arrears due to An Post workers under Sustaining Progress and the linked arrears due to the An Post pensioners;

—suspend the closure of SDS pending a departmental investigation of the financial record and outlook of the company and full consultation with the trade unions and workforce;

—utilise the 1990 Industrial Relations Act to request the Labour Relations Commission to urgently investigate the present crisis at An Post and to provide a platform for its resolution through agreed industrial relations procedures, including the full involvement of the workers and their trade union representatives in the CWU, CPSU and PSEU trade unions; and

—prepare a Government White Paper on the future development of the postal service and on the economic means to enable An Post to discharge its universal service obligation, including any necessary State supports to postal services as with other critical universal public services.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

An Ceann Comhairle

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

—recognises the:

—critical importance of a vibrant universal public postal service;

—commitment of the Government to the postal network as set out in European Communities (Postal Services) Regulations 2002 which explicitly provide for the universal service obligation in relation to nationwide postal deliveries at uniform tariffs and, in recognition of the universal service obligations on An Post, the designation of part of the postal market as reserved to An Post;

—difficult financial situation faced by An Post in recent years with losses of over €24 million between 2001 and 2002 and a loss of €43 million in 2003;

—challenges posed to the postal service by electronic substitution, potential liberalisation by 2009 and the entry of strong international operators into the Irish postal market;

—need for An Post to develop a customer service ethos and to offer a range of high quality, competitively priced services and products to customers who increasingly will have a choice of postal provider;

—difficult issues arising in SDS, the parcels division of An Post, arising from the loss making situation of €12 million in 2003 and expected losses currently being dealt with in the National Implementation Body; and

—difficulties caused to An Post pensioners by the non-payment of Sustaining Progress.

notes the:

—work already undertaken by the Labour Relations Commission in brokering a proposal in regard to restructuring An Post collection and delivery processes;

—progress made by the LRC in facilitating agreement between An Post unions and management in agreeing Christmas mail arrangements;

—work being undertaken by Mr. Peter Cassells under the auspices of the National Implementation Body in resolving issues arising from the SDS closure; and

—work undertaken by the Labour Court in resolving issues between An Post management and the AHCPS.

urges:

—management and unions to continue to finalise these talks as a matter of urgency and in a spirit of partnership and expects that on agreement that both sides will honour all aspects of that agreement in spirit and letter.

and commends:

—the commitment of the Government to the renewal of An Post as demonstrated by the decision of the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to meet the An Post Board and the CWU this week to outline the Government's views on the future of the postal service."

— (Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources).

Mr. Deenihan

The debate is most opportune, as it is taking place one week after the spectacle of 8,000 postal workers marching on the Dáil. I spoke to a number of them and their morale is at an all-time low. Many who have dedicated their working lives to the postal service are disillusioned. The company has made it absolutely clear it will not pay all members of staff their cost of living increases, which have been refused for the past two years, and the 5% pay increase they are due under Sustaining Progress until changes are agreed and, even then, payment will depend on the regulator granting a price increase.

From a rural Deputy's point of view, the proposed changes on which this increase will be based are worrying. Five years ago major restructuring of the company was carried out. Fianna Fáil Members assured the House no sub-post offices would be closed. There were 1,900 sub-post offices at the time whereas now there are 1,400. This issue concerns the delivery of the postal service and not only the closure of such offices. I am convinced that if the restructuring proposals go through, people in all parts of the island and particularly in rural areas will be at a considerable disadvantage and will be exposed to a lack of service and hardship not previously experienced.

I refer to a number of the proposed changes, about which I am worried. Local postmen will no longer be assigned on a long-term basis to an area. In other words, the postman to whom we are accustomed calling to our doors will no longer do so on a regular basis. The connection, friendship and trust built up and enjoyed between customers and postmen will be no more. This is especially the case for people who live alone in isolated rural areas and in urban areas. The postman may be their only contact with the outside world and that bond may be broken if the proposals are implemented within the overall context of saving money and achieving a rationalised service. Reference has been made to social capital and social imperatives but the management of An Post and, ultimately, the Minister and the Government are not taking those concepts into consideration in regard to the postal service.

That is why the debate is helpful and I thank the Labour Party for tabling the motion. There is also a need for a broader debate on the future of the postal service and its importance. This issue is being highlighted because people have taken it for granted for years but it is under threat. People are becoming aware of what will happen if these proposals are implemented.

The extensive use of roadside boxes and the replacement of postmen with contract delivery personnel have been proposed. The issue of roadside boxes highlights the problem facing people living in isolated areas up long boreens. They have no contact with the outside world or they may be incapacitated in various ways. In many cases, the postman delivers their shopping and he or she provides other services but that will not happen if roadside boxes are introduced. Recently I read a magazine article which pointed out the US is retaining its postal service in public ownership in recognition of its strategic importance for the economy. The Government should consider what has happened in the US, where almost everything has been privatised but where the postal service is considered important.

The postal workers deserve immediate payment without conditions under Sustaining Progress. It is also important that major public debate takes place throughout the country on the future of our postal service. The universal service obligation must apply to postal services in the same way it applies to other State agencies. I am sorry I do not have more time. However, it is important that this debate is taking place now.

Mr. Blaney

I wish to share time with Deputy Healy-Rae and a number of Fianna Fáil Deputies. I thank him and those Members for sharing time.

Acting Chairman (Mr. McCormack)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Blaney

Our postal services are about to enter what might be described as a new era. This could be detrimental to rural postal services as we know them if the dispute between An Post and its workforce is not handled with extreme care. Some basic infrastructural needs are required to sustain rural Ireland as we know it, namely, the retention of local schools; the retention of local Garda stations that are fully maintained and manned, and local post offices with postal services as they are today. These are the basics for any rural community to survive.

If I had more time, I would develop the argument on the important role of the postman and what he contributes to local communities. Postmen and post offices are important aspects of the fabric of rural areas. Their services will be greatly diminished if An Post continues with its current proposals.

I wish to put two points to the Minister. No other semi-State organisation would put up with the treatment currently being dished out by An Post management to its workers who deserve their increase and must earn their living like everybody else. I urge the Minister to intervene to ensure they receive their wage increases immediately. Second, by 2006 some 44% of An Post mail revenue will be exposed to competition. This is in complete contrast to the rest of Europe where the average is much less. The competition will be in urban areas resulting in much loss of revenue for An Post. This means An Post will have to pick up the pieces in rural Ireland, leaving it in a position where postal services will not be financially viable.

If An Post implements its current strategies, there will be thousands of job losses. This has the potential to give one of the biggest blows to rural areas in the history of the State. We should not under estimate the consequences of such a scenario. With this in mind, I urge the Minister to intervene and ensure the future of An Post and its workforce is secure. By doing this the Minister will ensure we retain the backbone of rural Ireland.

Mr. Healy-Rae

I thank Deputy Blaney and the Deputies from Fianna Fáil for sharing time. I am concerned at the current situation regarding postmen and post offices around rural Ireland. An Post employs over 10,000 people directly and many thousands more, including postmasters, on a contract basis. Morale among staff is at an all time low. Many of them who have given their working lives to the postal services are disillusioned.

As already stated, by 2006 An Post mail revenue will be exposed to competition. The private sector companies will undercut An Post. They will cherry pick the profitable city and town business and leave the loss making rural areas to An Post. If this is allowed to happen, the delivery of mail in rural areas will be unviable and An Post will probably not deliver it. The local postmen will no longer deliver to local areas on a consistent basis. The personal touch will be gone for people living alone or in isolated areas. In some cases postmen are the only contact these people have with the community. This is not just a sentimental point, but a real part of rural Ireland. As such, it should be valued.

The public has an affection for the local post office which is a well regarded institution and important part of the daily life of people from all walks of life. Unless a consensus of national agreement by all social partners is sought and achieved, there will be a major strike. This must not happen as it would be a disincentive to investment in the country. A stable and predictable regulatory environment is required so that investment decisions and business strategies can be pursued with confidence.

The United States has retained its postal services in public ownership as it recognises their vital importance and strategic value for the economy of the country. I urge the Minister to take immediate action to prevent a strike and do something to help postmen and postal services which we are in grave danger of losing.

Mr. Finneran

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on this important matter. I have spoken on the issue in public on a number of occasions over recent years, in particular during the past few weeks.

It is unacceptable that a public service worker is denied his due entitlement to his wages. This is what has happened with regard to postal workers. There is no point in An Post blaming its workers for any financial difficulty in which it now finds itself. The blame must be fairly and squarely laid on the desk of successive management teams at An Post over recent years. They have caused the financial difficulty in which they find themselves. Everybody knows the deficiencies at management level are a disgrace. If those deficiencies existed in any private organisation, management would have been sacked long ago. The public service workers in An Post are entitled to their pay rise and should get it. Otherwise, there cannot be any movement forward with regard to how the workers can engage in meaningful discussion with management.

I have had ongoing discussions with people in my area who work in the SDS unit in Athlone. It is hard to understand how an operation dealing with 35,000 parcels per week could be closed on the basis that it is uneconomical or inefficient. There is surely something seriously wrong with management that can make such a decision. I know the people who work in Athlone and I assure Members they are the finest and hardest working people one could find. They worked in the system and were proud of it. I found it hard to understand that for a time private operators were able to accept parcels, send them through the post and get them delivered by An Post after taking their cut. There is something wrong with a management that allows that.

I have had a great interest in universal postal services over the years. The universal postal service is enshrined in European and Irish law. Those laws provide that we have a service to every address in Ireland and across Europe. For that reason, I recently placed a motion before my parliamentary party calling on my Government colleagues, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, to bring forward a financial package to computerise paper based post offices. Approximately 400 post offices here still use a paper based system. I urge An Post and the Government to be forward thinking and consider a computer based system which will be more cost effective in the long term. Many rural and regional post offices provide communities with a social dimension where people can gain access to social welfare payments and banking services. The services offered by An Post have become essential for many people living in rural areas. These services would only improve with computerisation. An Post has argued that the introduction of computerisation is not commercially viable. I take that with a pinch of salt.

I urge my colleagues to become the front-runners in considering adoption of a package similar to the one being brought forward in the UK, which I believe would improve the social aspect and accessibility of rural post offices.

Mr. McGuinness

I compliment the previous Minister in the Department, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on the work he did and the challenge he made to An Post management in regard to the inaccurate figures it brought forward. I also compliment the new Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, on his work. Both men have been the recipients of unfair criticism in this House. Deputy Broughan should have more respect for the work they did on behalf of An Post and the postal service to ensure continuity of service into the future. Perhaps we should direct our positive energies to asking——

Mr. Broughan

The Government has had eight years to sort this out.

Mr. McGuinness

——the workforce and management to pursue the matter through the Labour Court to ensure a satisfactory outcome. That is the direction in which we should go, rather than playing around with negative politics.

I come from the transport industry and I find the closing down of SDS staggering, particularly given the growth in that industry here and worldwide. It is time to acknowledge what is due to the workers and to resolve the dispute. An Post employees have been complimented by all speakers on the way they have contributed to the postal services and to ensuring efficiency of service delivery in every town and rural area.

The former chief executive, Mr. Hynes, and the management came before a committee of the House and said An Post would make money. Instead of being profitable in that year the company lost a substantial amount of money. It is difficult to project the figures for this year because it depends on what way one adds or subtracts the figures as to whether the company will be on the right side of profitability. We will have to await the outcome of those figures to make any judgment on the performance of management in this instance.

Over the years management has been appalling. There was a recent decision to move the sorting and distribution section from Kilkenny to a neighbouring county. This led to great inefficiencies in terms of the management. I urge that this decision be reviewed. The postal workers who deliver post have a far better understanding of how this matter should be managed but their contribution has been largely ignored. I urge management to reconsider its position.

The Minister should examine what has taken place in regard to the UK's postal service. I understand more than £600 million has been invested in the automation of post offices there. We have 450 paper-based post offices throughout the country that should be automated. It would require an investment of €3.2 million with an annual service charge of €1 million.

The income of postmasters and postmistresses ranges from €8,000 to €15,000. We should look at supplementing this income. Post offices are far more than just that, they are part of a social network providing social infrastructure within rural Ireland. They are absolutely essential in today's society in terms of what they deliver in social capital. In acknowledgement of that, we should not be afraid to invest in the same way as did the UK in terms of automation and in supplementing the income of those people who work in the postal service.

We should negotiate with a substantial financial institution to ensure we can add to the services already being provided. We should also look at the transaction costs involved. It is ludicrous to pay someone 30 cent to 50 cent on a transaction. We should look at the value of our post offices, the payment on those transactions and ensure the staff get fair play.

The post offices get one third of the €50 million paid for the social welfare contract but do two thirds of the work. A serious overhaul and investment in our post office infrastructure is required.

Mr. Nolan

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion. As previous speakers have outlined, nobody in the Oireachtas is unaware of the commitment and dedication of the staff who have worked with An Post over the years. It is regrettable that we now have great unease and distrust between An Post staff and management.

I spoke to union members in Carlow and it is fair to say there is a total conflict of interest between the figures we are getting from An Post management and those provided by An Post staff. The financial projections the board has given to the Minister are in complete contrast with the financial advice the union got from its financial advisers. Some balance should be brought to try to discover where the truth lies because unless we, as Members and legislators, know where the truth lies, it is very difficult for us to come down on one side or the other.

Both sides admit that the SDS service was haemorrhaging large amounts of revenue from An Post and that something had to be done to stop that. Competition was one of the major factors in that case. The new Minister must look at the overall picture. We have a tradition of a first class postal service for more than 150 years. It would be a sad state of affairs if we were to do anything to allow that service to deteriorate or find itself in an inferior position when the market opens up in four years time. The Minister and the Government should look seriously at the difficulties being experienced by An Post.

Initially, pensioners of An Post contacted me and highlighted the fact that their pensions had not increased. I note that the Minister said he would speak with the Minister for Finance to try to overcome that difficulty. In doing that, he has to be mindful of the dedicated workforce in An Post and he should try and resolve that problem as well. It will not go away, it is something that will have to be addressed. The sooner it is sorted out the better.

Dr. Devins

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this Private Members' motion. I commend the Labour Party for tabling it.

An Post is a vital service that extends into all aspects of life in Ireland. Very few services have the same impact as An Post. It is interesting to note that the universal postal service is enshrined in Irish and European law and provides for a postal service to every address in Ireland and in Europe. At present, An Post has the benefit of having normal letter post deliveries solely reserved for the company. However, in future, liberalisation will be introduced, which will bring competition. Currently the delivery of letters accounts for 61% of overall turnover in An Post. In future there will be increased competition and it is essential that An Post deliver on its assets, the main one of which is the nationwide delivery network of letters and parcels.

An Post now has the equipment and staff to deal with this aspect of its service. It is essential that all this is utilised to secure the future. There is no doubt that the future holds promise but it would be foolhardy to imagine that there can be success if all players are not singing from the same hymn sheet. To that end, I urge the unions and management to engage in constructive dialogue so that their future can be safeguarded. Increased competition will become a fact of life, with which they can deal together. However, if they are isolated from one another, the future will be very bleak. If that happens, the main losers will be the public. Like most Deputies, I have met the unions recently and there is no doubt that there are serious difficulties between its members and the management, but I urge all parties to engage with the industrial relations mechanisms available to them so that this essential public service, the nationwide delivery of mail, can be secured into the future.

The Government is committed to a viable and sustainable rural post office network. As a representative of a predominantly rural constituency, I support this commitment. In that regard, the fact that the Government invested €12.5 million in modernising the postal network in 2003 is to be welcomed. I have no doubt that future injections of money will be available to ensure the continued modernisation of the services An Post offers. At present, more than 95% of An Post's counter business is delivered through the automated network. More than 1,000 automated post offices deal with 95% of An Post's business throughout the country. It is a moot point as to whether further automation will lead to increased business. However, I have no doubt that, should evidence be produced to the Minister that further automation of the 475 non-automated post offices will lead to increased business, he will look kindly on such investment. An Post is a national asset and its management and staff must work together to ensure that the future of this national treasure is secured into the future. I commend the amendment to the House.

Mr. Cassidy

The matter before the House is a very serious one, on which I welcome the opportunity to say a few words. As a former postman who worked in the bad old days, I have not seen much improvement in the way An Post and its predecessors treated workers in the 40 years since I began work in County Westmeath. Nothing surprises me about how workers are treated by An Post. The company seems to have gone out of its way in the past 40 years to treat workers in the manner it has. At no time did it provide an incentive to or demonstrate an appreciation of a group of people who have provided such an essential service throughout the length and breadth of the country. As an employee of An Post's predecessor, it was a miserable experience. I appreciated the job for the £3 17s 6d which I was paid in the 1960s, but I worked six days a week for it, riding a push-bike 28 miles, half of it on untarred roads, as well as delivering an evening post in Castlepollard.

I agree with speakers on all sides of the House, that no Deputy from any political party wants to see the door to door postal service, which has been in existence since the foundation of the State, interfered with by any Minister, union or employer. We want to see this service continued in its present state. If there is to be a trial period for the private sector, it should be undertaken in the centre of the cities because I will not allow it to interfere with rural Ireland.

Mr. Broughan

The Deputy can leave the cities alone too.

Mr. Gregory

It will not be done in the cities.

Mr. Cassidy

I am speaking on behalf of the people who elected me. I have not seen many city Deputies who put their shoulder to the wheel when rural Ireland needed a break.

Mr. Broughan

We always did so.

Mr. Cassidy

While I am here, I will not allow this to happen under any conditions. It took a great deal for 1,000 men and women to take a day off at their own cost to let politicians know there was a serious crisis with their employment.

Mr. Broughan

The Deputy should vote with us. That is a challenge to him.

Mr. Cassidy

I do not want to be interrupted by the Deputy or anyone else.

Mr. Broughan

Vote with us tonight.

Mr. Cassidy

I am not vote-catching here.

Ms Shortall

Stop the hypocrisy and vote with the motion.

Mr. Broughan

Stop the hypocrisy.

Mr. Cassidy

Deputy Broughan has no experience of what goes on.

Mr. Broughan

The Deputy should put his money where his mouth is.

Mr. Cassidy

The postal workers' harvest was the two weeks before Christmas, about which the Deputy would know nothing. For them to give up one of their days at their own cost sounds alarm bells to me because I understand how serious and important it is.

I cannot understand the management of An Post. There is a big growth in direct marketing on television throughout the world. In America, it is in this area that the postal sector is growing. For God's sake, let the management take a flight and see how it is done in the United States. A 48-hour trip would demonstrate to them what is happening. Television marketing is a new concept, which has only become big in Europe in the past year and a half. RTE television is now embracing it. We have all seen advertisements for greatest hits collections on CDs and various new inventions are promoted through the post, even to the golfing fraternity.

Mr. McHugh

Foster and Allen.

Mr. Cassidy

Now that I have made my case, I will stay positive. However, the concept of this not being a profitable business is a joke. I do not know what is going wrong. When multinational companies around the world encounter difficulties because of recessions and so on, they deal with it. We do not have a recession in Ireland. Moreover, the CSO has informed us that there will be another million people in Ireland in 15 years' time. Therefore, the market base will be there.

An Post management cannot state that the workforce is expensive because it has been one of the most poorly paid for the past 40 years, which I know from personal experience, and I am not trying to score points. There is nothing but opportunity in regard to what can be achieved by the workforce and the management.

I do not know what happened in the past but we must always look to the future. It behoves us all to try to do whatever we can. I have made my voice heard to the Minister, who is new to his portfolio. Moreover, a part of County Westmeath which I have represented will be represented by him after the next general election. I will make my voice heard as strongly as possible to him in regard to the problems and the challenges that exist.

Mr. Sherlock

The Deputy should vote with the motion.

Mr. Cassidy

It is good to be given an opportunity. If ever I was found wanting before, I was always found to be a person who could deliver. I will take this cause as one of my priorities in the coming months.

Mr. Broughan

Vote with us tonight.

Mr. Gormley

I wish to share time with Deputies Ryan, Crowe, Gregory, Cowley, McHugh, Finian McGrath and Breen.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Gormley

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this very important motion and I commend the Labour Party for tabling it. The postal workers will breathe a sign of relief having listened to Deputy Cassidy; they will know they are in good hands.

Mr. Cassidy

Thank you, Deputy.

Mr. Gormley

They know he will make them a priority and that he will save them. It is wonderful to know that.

Mr. Cassidy

I thank the chairman of the Green Party for saying so.

Mr. Gormley

I am sure they appreciate it. Deputy Cassidy should stay in the House and listen to what I have to say because I am not quite sure if he can deliver. He might have delivered leaflets in his time but I do not think he can deliver this with the Government.

Mr. Cassidy

We are on the inside looking out.

Mr. Gormley

I agree with many of the points made by Deputy Broughan at the outset of the debate. In general, An Post workers have delivered a very good service for many years. I thank the postal workers in my area who deliver leaflets and letters to my constituents in Dublin 4, 6 and 2. Anyone who has done this work knows it is a difficult task. Many people trivialised postmen's complaints some years ago that letter boxes were too low. Anyone who has done that type of work knows they were right. The type of damage that can be done to one's back from doing such work should not be dismissed and neither should their concerns.

The industrial relations problem must be seen in the context of the continuing debate about the liberalisation of services. There is a tendency to equate private with progress and public with outdated work practices. The right-wing agenda of this Government has seen us become the most open and globalised economy in the world. We have embraced neo-liberal values with a vengeance. Is it really about better services for the public or is about making major profits for the few?

Deputy Healy-Rae correctly stated that the US has protected its postal services. It is interesting that the people who pushed for liberalisation are not the big bad neo-conservatives of the US but the European Union. We know that from the leaked documents from the World Trade Organisation. US consumer and environmental groups have raised concerns that the services negotiations could open the door for private sector firms to take over many Government services. The response from one of George Bush's sidekicks, US Trade Representative, Mr. Robert Zoellick, was that the Bush Administration opposes the privatisation of postal delivery, higher education, water services and other governmental functions as part of the WTO talks.

We always view the EU as the good guys and the US as the bad guys. However, in this case that simply is not true. When we speak of the new European constitution and the Charter of Fundamental Rights we must also consider the section which enshrines neo-liberal values in that constitution. It is clear from the leaked documents that the issues being considered are privatisation, deregulation of public energy and water utilities, postal services, higher education, alcohol distribution systems, the right of foreign firms to obtain US Government small business loans and extreme deregulation of private sector service industries such as insurance, banking, mutual funds and securities.

Many of the services listed in the leaked documents are regulated in the US at local or state level yet state and municipal officials are excluded from these closed door negotiations. The leaked documents are European Union demands on other countries to privatise public services and to deregulate the services sector as part of the WTO General Agreement on Trade in Services. I ask my Labour Party colleagues to look at this issue. While some of us are pro-European, there are things in this document that cannot be overlooked. We cannot suggest this came out of no place, it came from the European Union. The European Union has led the charge in this case.

I am on record as saying during a previous debate that the political philosophy of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats is not about socialism, rather it is about cynicism. Those parties know the price of everything and the value of nothing. We should not ignore the value of the 1,500 post offices and sub-post offices which are an invaluable part of the rural communications network. The manner in which management at An Post has treated workers is disgraceful.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Gormley

The pay commitments should have been honoured. Postal workers have modest incomes. If Deputy Cassidy wants to deliver for them he will defend their rights to the last.

Mr. Cassidy

I have just done so.

Mr. Crowe

"Sold Down the Swanee" was one of the captions on a placard carried at the recent protest by postal workers outside Leinster House — a play on the letters SDS in terms of the closure of the parcel service which also accurately reflects what is happening to An Post in general. It has been sold down the Swanee. Short-sighted, dysfunctional and shameful might be an even better description of management and Government's handling of the mounting crisis in SDS and An Post

That it took thousands of postal workers to march on Leinster House to get the Minister's urgent attention on such a matter of strategic national importance is a scandal. The Minister told us last night that all is not lost. An Post management is taking steps to integrate its parcel service back into main business thereby saving 180 jobs. It would be nice if that were the case. However, a letter sent by An Post to its SDS customer base indicates rather than having a point-to-point parcel service, customers would have to process their packages over the counter at their local post offices. That is not the same as a modern day parcel service and I cannot see many business people queuing up to take advantage of such a service. It is a sham offer.

An Post management spokesperson, John Foley, made a little jibe at the Communications Workers Union and Sinn Féin in a recent radio interview. In a feeble attempt to be sarcastic he said the CWU were a little like Sinn Féin. If being a little like Sinn Féin means the Communications Workers Union is prepared to stand up for the rights and interests of its members, the taxpayer and general public then what of it?

It could be argued that the current crisis facing An Post is primarily one of serious mismanagement. How can a projected €1 million profit turn into a loss of €43 million in a matter of months? How can that be when inflation was rampant across so many sectors of Irish life? Why had An Post management not requested price increases for almost 11 years? Why the rush to shut down An Post's SDS parcel service when it is considered the one area of the delivery service with potential for financial growth and customer expansion? These and other questions should be considered by the Committee of Public Accounts.

The company has failed to honour its commitments under Sustaining Progress and payments have not been made to workers and pensioners of An Post. The Minister said he very much regretted that. Regret will not put food on the table. What message is sent to the private sector when a semi-State company cannot or will not meet pay agreements? The role of the Government has been one of utter neglect. As with all other semi-State companies developed over the decades with taxpayer's money and which have served the Irish people well, there is a tremendous rush to cut An Post loose and to let the entrepreneurial vultures pick over the more succulent bones.

Much was made by the Minister and others yesterday of the need to take a partnership approach to the issues involved. Unfortunately, such calls are completely meaningless when one considers the record in this area. The only partnership arrangement agreed between workers and management in the recent past was that relating to owner-drivers at SDS. Workers could be forgiven if they are sceptical about entering another partnership considering what happened then. We are told sacrifices have to be made. Why is it always the workers who have to make the sacrifices?

The Government, as Deputy Gormley said, seems to know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. This issue is not just about a postal delivery service or about getting a letter from a profitable point A to a profitable point B. It is about much more than that. The postal service is a social and community service as much as it is a commercial interest. In many instances it is a vital link between local and rural communities.

Mr. Gregory

In the time available, I wish to put on record my support for the just demands of the postal workers. I worked with postal workers at Christmas time many years ago. They perform a vital social service delivering mail to all parts of the country. Sub-post offices are at the very heart of local communities and their closure has a major impact on people's lives. Such a service cannot be judged on the basis of commercial profitability. If senior management at An Post got their way they would turn the company into one staffed by temporary, casual workers providing a minimum service with all profitable business being handed over to private companies. That must not be allowed to happen as it would destroy An Post as a public service.

It is an outrage that the cost of living increases, due since November 2003 under Sustaining Progress, have not been paid to approximately 10,000 employees, while many thousands of An Post pensioners have not received the €11.25 increase due to them. These pensioners gave 40 years of loyal service to the people. It is no wonder the workers feel a deep frustration and anger at the failure of both management and the Government to secure the future of the postal service.

I join those who reject any attempt to dismantle or privatise this national public service. I reject any attempt to reduce the level of pay and conditions of postal workers. During the past two years, the postal workers were forced to pay for senior management's incompetence. The refusal to pay the most basic cost of living increases has left the postal workers behind all others and that is unacceptable. The treatment of the pensioners must also be condemned and the payments due to them must be paid.

Mr. F. McGrath

Hear, hear.

Mr. Gregory

The unilateral decision to close the parcel service, SDS, with a loss of 270 jobs has been another factor in the crisis. I support this motion.

Dr. Cowley

The Committee of Public Accounts must look at the recent shenanigans in An Post. I know from my constituency clinics that An Post is conducting a campaign by stealth of closing down every rural post office. Vacancies in the service are only advertised in the local areas concerned. People have come to me, disappointed that they did not know the vacancy had arisen. They expected it to be advertised in the national or regional media rather than the local media. I am aware of the shenanigans regarding appointing those who apply for positions in An Post. There is no transparency in the process. The remuneration for a postal worker in a rural area, working a six day week, who must carry the key to operate the office computer, is inadequate. When services are lost, people in communities are too. If a community has no place to post a letter or see a doctor, it only leads to a vicious circle. It is the same as the Hanly and Hollywood reports leading to centralisation of services, which is unacceptably anti-person and anti-rural.

Mr. McHugh

Last Tuesday, I raised the issue of An Post on the Adjournment debate. On that occasion, I argued there was a total breakdown of trust between unions and management in An Post. Events since have borne out my claim. I also asked the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to take a hands-on approach to ensure normal relations and services are provided. I am glad the Minister will meet the unions and management this week to bring sanity to the situation and applaud him for doing so.

However, it must be remembered that the future must be worked out between the unions and management. We can only look to the future with confidence if relations are based on respect and trust. To create that trust, several issues need to be addressed. The company's financial position needs to be clarified. Mr. John Hynes's forecast of €1 million in 2003 does not equate with Mr. Donal Curtin's forecast of a €46 million loss in the same year. We need to know who is right. Is management's story about SDS or the unions the true one? Will a subvention be paid to An Post to enable it to perform its universal service obligation? I object to the privatisation of rural deliveries. Postal workers should be retained to provide rural deliveries in the professional manner they have done down the years. The retention of rural post offices is vital to rural communities. The Minister should state his position on the payment of wage agreements, the retention of rural post offices, the payment of subvention to retain rural deliveries and the financial position of An Post.

Mr. F. McGrath

I support the postal workers in their dispute against multiple breaches of working agreements. As the son of a postman, it is my national and civic duty to support the staff of An Post. I commend the unions on how they are handling the dispute, particularly with their 91% mandate from the workforce for industrial action. I am dismayed by the refusal of An Post management to award postal workers their due pay entitlements under Sustaining Progress and to pay the linked cost of living rises to An Post pensioners. This is simply unacceptable. I am disappointed by the decision of An Post management to close the SDS parcel and courier company without debate in the House and abandon a strategic recovery plan agreed with the workforce and trade union representatives.

Rather than this type of disastrous approach to management, common sense is needed. I call on the Government to prepare a White Paper on the future development of the postal service and the economic means to enable An Post to discharge its services. That is the only way forward. People must take their heads out of the sand and stand up to defend our postal workers and service. I speak as a regular customer of An Post, a taxpayer and an elected public representative. The citizens are seeking justice and fair play for the staff, while having a quality and effective postal service with deep roots in the community. This is at the heart of this debate and the reason I support the workers. It is about people and a grave injustice to the staff and pensioners. The motion is about doing something constructive for the postal service and staff. I urge all Members to stand up and be counted in supporting the motion.

Mr. J. Breen

I support the motion. I am deeply shocked by An Post management's refusal to pay An Post workers the increases to which they are rightly entitled and believe they have been unfairly treated. The dispute has been ongoing since March 2003. It must be resolved and payments of increases should be made to postal workers with the retention of postal services.

An Post's financial results for 2003 showed a deficit of €29.7 million and an operational loss of €43 million. Urgent measures to stabilise the situation were included in the strategic recovery plan, submitted to the shareholders in September 2003. Non-payment spending was targeted as a vital element in resolving the cash crisis facing the company. Since mid-2003 the level of spending has been reduced by €8 million, resulting in 2004 non-payment spending of 2% less than that in 2002, despite service inflation running at 6%.

A ban on recruitment, restrictions on overtime and the non-payment of Sustaining Progress wage increases has ensured that pay costs in 2004 are the same as 2002, a saving of €35 million against budget. It is imperative that the processes are initiated by January 2005, at the latest, if An Post wants to stay on course to deliver the targets in the recovery plan.

ComReg commenced independent monitoring of An Post quality of service in January 2003. This has led to a continuing dispute with the company over measurement mechanisms. Other issues including the SDS issue arose during the first 12 months of the implementation of the recovery plan. Despite SDS having a separate recovery plan, implemented in mid-2003, it failed to reach its target. The increasing unacceptable losses continued, leading to the decision of the board of An Post to close the service down and reintegrate its core operation into An Post's mail business. People in rural areas are entitled to the same level of services as those in urban areas without privatisation of the rural postal service. Why segregate those in rural areas who pay their taxes just like those in urban areas? This is a matter of national importance. It would be a shame to see one of the first modern means of communication go under for the nation as a whole.

Ms Shortall

I wish to share time with Deputies Paul McGrath, Lynch, Penrose, Rabbitte and Seán Ryan. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate.

I commend my colleague, Deputy Broughan, on tabling the motion. The current difficulties at An Post require an urgent response from both management and the Government if our postal service is to be secured into the future. The postal service is a crucial element of the social and economic infrastructure of the country. Whether it is a business person in Dublin 1 or a pensioner in the Aran Islands, we all depend heavily on the postal services. The public has a deep appreciation of the central role postal workers play in our lives.

Crucial to the Labour Party's views about the public service is the belief that everyone should be guaranteed access to a universal postal service in the form of a daily service delivered through uniform rates of postage. Last night, the Minister committed himself to a universal service but, crucially, did not specify it would be public. A myth which is widely held within the Government is that services can be provided more cheaply by the private sector. This thinking is being applied across many of our public services. It is based on two premises which the Labour Party utterly rejects. The first is that decent, secure public service jobs can be jettisoned in favour of "yellow pack" short-term contracts with little or no security. The Government needs to come clean on the downgrading of workers' rights and conditions and stop hiding behind the public sector managers as they wield the axe. The much lauded introduction of competition generally amounts to no more than cherry-picking the profitable aspects of the business by private sector interests determined to get a share of the action.

In the case of the postal service, such a move would be disastrous for much of rural Ireland. If a national postal service like An Post cannot afford to continue to provide a universal service obligation itself, how can a private, self-employed contractor afford to do so? This will be the beginning of the end for the rural postal service in Ireland. The Government must accept that if we are serious about supporting rural Ireland and ensuring some level of balanced regional development, those elements of our social services on which rural Ireland depends must be subsidised. Just as rural transport services are not profitable, and it is accepted that they must be subsidised, so too with our postal service deliveries and our post office network. It is time for the Government to engage in a public debate on what kind of postal service we need. The Government cannot opt out of this. It is scandalous what management is doing to the workers, but the Government has a clear role to set out policy in this area.

Mr. P. McGrath

I thank the Labour Party for sharing time and compliment Deputy Broughan on tabling the motion. As time is short, I will make just a few points.

I heard my constituency colleague, Deputy Cassidy, speak in glowing terms about An Post and the services provided by it. I hope he will follow through on his lovely talk on how successful and great An Post is. I hope he will have the conviction to vote for the motion supporting An Post workers, postmen throughout the country and all the matters about which he spoke. Will he have a nice talk on local radio and for the local newspapers but with the footnote missing that he voted against the postal workers? He will omit that from his public relations stunt when he goes to Westmeath. That is disgraceful. We will test him this evening to see what he will do.

I want to record my tribute to An Post workers. Postmen have been the backbone of this country as rural services have disappeared. At some Garda stations, one communicates with the nearest manned station by using the "green man" system. While many schools have closed down and amalgamated, the postman is still the person who provides a service to each home in Ireland, usually on a daily basis. This is something we must preserve. We should open up a wider debate on the issue to determine what people want from An Post. What is it they require and for what are they prepared to pay? I believe the people are prepared to pay for a postal service which will deliver to them the quality service provided in the past. They do not want a "yellow pack" service. They do not want workers to be exploited. They do not want the private sector to do a makeshift job instead of a job currently so well done by the postal workers. In supporting the motion, I hope we can open up a wider debate on the future of An Post.

Ms Lynch

I express my appreciation to Deputy Broughan for tabling the motion. I will make just a few points because time has been greatly curtailed as a result of the vote at 7 p.m.

For a semi-State company such as An Post, in which the Government should have a direct input, to treat its workers in this fashion is disgraceful. Words cannot describe how shabbily these workers have been treated. The people who deliver the post must get up at 5 a.m. to go to work and then lug several heavy bags to various drop-off points from which they deliver the post. These people often cover eight or ten miles a day without a break. That appears fine because there is an illusion that people who deliver the post, whether men or women, and there are now as many women as men entering the postal service, work in spring weather when people have a spring in their step. That is not the case. These people must go out to work in weather when none of us would go out without an umbrella or a taxi to pick us up. These people must deliver the post during storms, snow and awful rain for just €350 to begin with and increasing to €450 after nine years. This is slave labour which should not be allowed.

To add insult to injury, last week, middle to upper management received a productivity related bonus amounting to several thousand euro each. It must have been a difficult pill to swallow for people seeking what the Government considers to be the central pillar of the success of the economy, namely, centralised pay bargaining, to witness the company, which is part and parcel of Government, reneging on its side of the bargain while hearing that its management, which is screwing people into the ground, received a productivity-related bonus.

Last Wednesday, An Post workers took the day off at their own expense to come to Dublin. These are workers who depend on overtime to supplement their wages, which no one should have to do. On that day, Gerry Browne, the president of the Communications Workers Union, and John Foley, the public relations officer for An Post, took part in a radio broadcast in Cork. The latter said that the CWU reminded him of Sinn Féin. The CWU was deeply offended by that remark because the implication was that it did not have a plan or a strategy and it did not know where it was going. Gerry Browne was deeply offended, as was everyone who heard the remark, because the union stood up for its workers and, at the end of the day, it is the only defence the workers have because they cannot rely on the Government to ensure they receive a decent wage. Therefore, they must rely on overtime.

Mr. Penrose

I am pleased the Labour Party and my colleague, Deputy Broughan, raised this issue on Private Members' time. This issue resulted in more than 7,000 marching last week at their own expense. It must be asked why they marched. They did so because they are being treated like second-class citizens by the management of An Post. They have been disregarded by a Government which has a right-wing agenda and which failed to invest in An Post or to ensure that it was allowed necessary price rises. It allowed An Post to be run into the ground at the expense of workers.

I can tell the House about the workers in An Post. I know all of them in my area. My brother-in-law has worked for An Post for 25 years. He has three children and earns a gross weekly pay of €445, €350 net. That is what he has for rising at 6 a.m. and delivering to every byway and highway across north Westmeath.

It is no use to have Deputy Cassidy coming to the House full of platitudes and nonsense. I am sick to the teeth of such platitudinous nonsense. Bluff, bluster and blather is the hallmark. It is time for the Government to put its money where its mouth is. The Government failed to invest in the company because it has a right-wing agenda driven by the idea that everything must be privatised. It wants to contract out the routes and it gives damn-all wages to the ordinary workers who get up in the morning, the 10,000 postmen and postwomen across the country. The Government did not even tell the workers the truth. The management could not say what was a profit or a loss. What was a profit of €1 million one day turned into a loss of €46 million the following day. Primary school children would be given an "NG" grade in maths if they behaved like that.

The Government should be aware that it has disregarded Sustaining Progress with all the partnership agreements. It has given the Harvey Smith salute to the partnership process and will not give a miserable 5% rise to the workers. As Deputy Lynch said, An Post can find time and money to give to the executives who presided over all of this, and give them a bonus — for what? As Deputy Michael D. Higgins said last night, we are committed to universal provision by the State or semi-State bodies, of which we must have control in this country. The Government idea is to package it all in a system whereby nobody will know when they will ever get a letter. It could arrive two or three days down the line. We forget altogether in this country the vital service provided by those people who travel down long boreens perhaps to spinsters living in remote areas, and return on that person's behalf with the odd message for the doctor, the local newsagent or anyone else on that person's behalf. They are providing vital services and keeping those people in touch with the outside society. People have forgotten about that and as Deputy Lynch said, about people rising at 6 a.m.

Those people should be entitled to a decent wage. They are entitled to full and unvarnished information about the company which accurately reflects the true position. It is sad to see 8,000 pensioners deprived of the few halfpence they get. No civilised society would countenance what has been done to the workers of the company and to the pensioners who contributed to it.

What about SDS? Part of it operates in my area in Athlone and also on the Naas road, in the area of my party leader, Deputy Rabbitte. The idea was to run down SDS so that it could be sold off to get the money for property, to get capital onto the balance sheet, so that An Post could say it had done a good job. They were going to get the money for the premises and the lands. I spoke to SDS workers in Athlone and to CWU representatives across Westmeath. SDS has never been as busy and has never had so many letters and parcels to deliver. I heard Deputy McGuinness, a fairly vocal Government backbencher, say that he could not understand how SDS could be disposed of at this point. If one looks underneath, there is always an agenda. The company wanted to get rid of it. The workers made agreements. The management used all sorts of fudges and obfuscations about overtime. Workers were prepared to deal with those issues. When one deals with someone who tells you that today is Wednesday, and who might tell you the next day that it is Friday, you are in serious trouble. One does not know where one is going with people like that.

I applaud the workers. It is a long time since my grandmother supported the lock-out of 1913. If there is a lock-out at An Post I will be there shoulder to shoulder with the workers. It is time that people went back to the streets to fight for their rights. There is too much molly-coddling. It is also time for the trade unions to get off the perch of cosy relationships with employers who do not honour agreements. It is time to take the fight to them because that is what was fought for in 1911. That should never be forgotten. The Labour Party and I are prepared to fight again for decent pay and decent conditions for workers, especially for the An Post workers and their families who are getting nothing, as well as for the unfortunate pensioners who did not even get the few halfpence they were seeking.

Mr. Rabbitte

I thank colleagues on all sides of the House who spoke in support of a decent postal service and decent conditions for the workers employed in it. I thank my colleague Deputy Broughan for bringing this motion to the parliamentary party because it raises fundamental questions for our society.

We are told we live in a time of remarkable affluence. We live in a time of relative wealth when the catchwords are competition, liberalise, privatise, deregulate and so on. The reality is that more and more people are asking questions about what kind of society we are creating.

Fundamental issues are raised by the street protests of the postal workers. What kind of society are we creating? We believe in the concept of a public realm, in the provision of clean water, in public parks, spaces and libraries, in public art and culture. We believe in the universal obligation to provide a service like the postal service because it is at the heart of the concept of citizenship, about which my colleague Deputy Michael D. Higgins spoke last night.

The Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, cannot resist his inclination to sneer at people on this side of the House. He began his mealy-mouthed speech by saying that the Labour Party did not bother to do its homework, and that if it had it would have recognised that universal service obligation was at the heart of the approach of this Government. Deputy Broughan then gave me the prospectus for the company. I will read one sentence from it: "An Post is a commercial company and must operate like one, without any social obligations to rural communities."

Mr. Penrose

The right-wingers are there.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is there a need to say more? How does the Minister reconcile that with what is happening in the company? That is its view of its mandate. That is how the Government sees it. It thinks it can run away from the implications of this debate. It passes the buck to An Post. Very little can be raised directly in this House without the buck being passed by the Minister to some quango or other. If one wants to raise a question about a road being built through the Hill of Tara, that is not considered a matter for the House, but for the National Roads Authority. So it goes. Matters such as those for which a Minister could be held accountable in this House even ten years ago do not arise and the Minister cannot be held answerable. The matters are deemed to be the business of some quango or another.

I am not arguing for bad management or for bad work practices. I am not opposed to the modernisation of the postal service. The bottom line is that if we are required as a society to communicate with our citizens through An Post, to provide a universal service, whether one is on the top of a mountain or in the densely populated part of urban Ireland, the obligation is on us to provide that service. If that means that at the end of the day a subsidy is needed to assist a modern, professionally run, efficient company, then so be it.

There are some aspects to the quality of life which are not open to bargain. I could not be here earlier as I was at a meeting. However, I watched on the monitor the number of colleagues behind the Minister of State who came in to make eulogies and tributes, which I am sure are sincerely felt, to the men and women of the postal service. So well they should, when one looks at the job they do, which Deputy Lynch reviewed for the House a few minutes ago, and when one realises that two postmen may be obtained for a week for the price of one Ms Monica Leech for a day, one has to ask what are our priorities. It is little wonder Members on the Government side of the House should make such tributes to the postal workers in circumstances where a Minister can recruit somebody for €1,200 a day, whose role and purpose is unclear and who seems to be superfluous to the services already at his disposal in the Department. We are told we cannot pay the pensioners in An Post their entitlements. What type of Government runs away from that commitment?

The Government is a main partner to Sustaining Progress. It will not implement the terms of Sustaining Progress unless on its terms, but even then the pensioners are to be victims. I say to the people who came in here tonight from Fianna Fáil, the Fianna Fáil Independents and so on that I heard their fine speeches and take them at face value. I believe they mean them genuinely when they pay tribute to the postal service and the contribution of the postal workers. Now is their opportunity to put their money where their mouths are by supporting Deputy Broughan's motion when the Ceann Comhairle calls the vote.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Amendment put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 62; Níl, 58.

Tá

• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Curran, John.
• Davern, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M. J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghail, Seán.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• Power, Peter.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wright, G. V.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Boyle, Dan.
• Breen, James.
• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Costello, Joe.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Enright, Olwyn.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Gormley, John.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McHugh, Paddy.
• McManus, Liz.
• Morgan, Arthur.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Kehoe.

Amendment declared carried.

Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Mr. Stagg

Given the importance of the issue and the hypocrisy of several speakers, as a teller, under Standing Order 69, I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Stagg is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 56.

Tá

• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Curran, John.
• Davern, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M. J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghail, Seán.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• Power, Peter.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wright, G. V.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Boyle, Dan.
• Breen, James.
• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Costello, Joe.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Enright, Olwyn.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Gormley, John.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McHugh, Paddy.
• McManus, Liz.
• Morgan, Arthur.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Stagg and Kehoe.

Question declared carried.