Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Jan 2005

Vol. 596 No. 1

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

Over the past two months we have seen the extent to which the republican movement has corrupted the democratic process in this country. We have seen a sovereign Government held to ransom by an illegal terrorist organisation. In addition, we have seen the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform capitulate to its demands for the early release of the murderers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe in return for the fulfilment of IRA commitments under the Good Friday Agreement.

We have also seen a procession of Fianna Fáil Ministers, including the Minister for Foreign Affairs, highlighting their willingness to share Government with Sinn Féin if the opportunity arises. None of these Ministers has withdrawn these statements following the Northern Ireland bank raid, which was clearly executed by the IRA.

The Taoiseach has rightly demanded clarity from the republican movement and there must be no room for interpretation of the required commitment to end all criminal activity. It has been truly nauseating to witness their twisted definitions of what constitutes a criminal act, which seem to be dependent on whether or not one of their members was involved.

In light of the claims made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs that it is no longer business as usual, will the Taoiseach tell the House what has actually changed in terms of the negotiation strategy with Sinn Féin? How will the Taoiseach and his Government ensure that future negotiations will not be deliberately undermined, as they were when we were within ten hours of having the matter concluded, while a major bank raid was being planned?

In light of the Taoiseach's own, proper statement about absolute clarify, will he give absolute clarity to this House that the matter of the early release of the murderers of Jerry McCabe is not on the agenda and will not be until the persons responsible have served their full time as handed down by the court?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny has asked me a number of questions to which there are a number of aspects. Obviously, since we debated these matters on the eve of the Christmas recess, events have taken a bad turn. The fall-out from the Northern Bank raid is that trust and confidence in the process are now at a very low level. The sooner we can deal with these issues straight up with the republican movement, the better. In my meetings yesterday, I outlined that in detail. I avoided doing so over the past few weeks as I wanted to do it in person, which I thought was the right and proper way, since I have been involved in the peace process for many years. The key and right question Deputy Kenny asked is how can we be sure. I understood that in working for a comprehensive agreement it was on the basis of trust and confidence and matters being clear.

Two key issues are outstanding and it will be impossible for us to move forward in any agreement until we get certainty on those two issues. One of the issues, the decommissioning of arms in order to take the gun out of politics, has been outstanding for a long time. The basis of discussions on that has been well documented. The second issue is more complicated and more urgent and involves ending criminality. For many months I, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have been working to find a basis for ending criminality. That is a key issue. There is no possibility of building confidence with the parties unless that issue is resolved. I have talked to all the parties, the party leaders and others in Northern Ireland. That issue must be dealt with before we can even start, and it will probably be difficult to do it anyway with the election only a few months off. We are totally committed to implementing the Good Friday Agreement because it is what the people on this island, North and South, voted for in such huge numbers.

In reply to Deputy Kenny's other question, all aspects of the comprehensive deal are off the table because there is no comprehensive agreement. Each time we tried to move, from April 2003, October 2003, November or December 2004, while the comprehensive agreement was still being built upon, these elements still remained in play. That ended in the aftermath of 8 December and these issues are no longer on the table.

I am conscious that we have a solemn obligation to the Irish people. The Government is determined to see the Good Friday Agreement implemented in full and will do everything it can to make that happen. It is now more difficult. I have asked Sinn Féin to reflect on how it can genuinely bring this process forward and, following such reflection, to come back on the two issues I mentioned. This must include a definitive and demonstrable end to all forms of criminal activity. We will wait to see what happens. I will meet Prime Minister Blair next week and prior to that I will meet the International Monitoring Commission. I hope it will also be possible for me to meet Mr. Hugh Orde and our own Garda Commissioner.

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for his clarification that the matter of an early release for the McCabe killers is now off the table. I hope it will not reappear in any circumstances until those persons have served their time. The Taoiseach knows my view on this. Both he and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform were prepared to do a deal in this matter last year, despite a very clear statement made to the Dáil by the previous Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Taoiseach also knows my view and my party's view regarding the ending of criminality by all persons and all parties in all places on this island. The Taoiseach understands my view on bipartisanship. We have always and will always support the Government's efforts to complete the Good Friday Agreement and rid this country of terrorism and criminal activity.

The Government continued on a path of appeasement for seven years. I regarded the actions of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who now takes a very strong Fine Gael line, as the actions of people who had become prisoners of the mind set of the negotiation strategy of the IRA and Sinn Féin. In that context I have two further questions. First, does the Taoiseach back up the assertion, made quite clearly and publicly by the Tánaiste, that a Member of this House, Deputy Ferris, is a member of the army council of the Provisional IRA? Second, does the Taoiseach have at his disposal, based on information from intelligence sources in the Garda and in the Army, knowledge of the whereabouts of illegal arms dumps currently held in the Republic? Will the Taoiseach comment on those two points?

The Taoiseach

I do not know the make-up of the present army council. I had some heated exchanges about that yesterday. I will not go over that ground again. I do not know the whereabouts of any arms dumps. The position of the Garda is that we will continue to seek out arms anywhere. No easy line will be taken on that.

Regarding the other issues, I appreciate Deputy Kenny's bipartisan position of support. There have been comments in recent days regarding appeasement and the failure of the system. In dealing with these issues one must have a steady nerve. In Northern Ireland today almost nobody is killed, unlike what happened over the previous 30 years. There are not too many incidents. There is much political engagement and a significant amount of investment. Tourism is quite healthy. Northern Ireland has a different image on this island and abroad in the greater world. There has been much progress and development.

However, there seems to be a sinister view that one can, on the one hand, continue the development of democratic politics of a kind and, on the other, that it is all right to engage in criminality. There was a view that for some time this was tolerated in order to try to move the process forward. However, ten years on, we cannot continue to do that. What offended me, and the reason I have taken a tough line on this, was the idea that a comprehensive agreement could be negotiated on the basis of trust and confidence while this kind of criminality went on. It is not a question of the size of the bank raid, and it was a big bank raid. I did not show anger regarding earlier events, for example, the raid on the Makro store in Dunmurry last Easter during which £1 million worth of goods was taken and staff were tied up by armed men. The International Monitoring Commission blamed the Provisional IRA for that. We in this House took that coolly enough. In October £2 million worth of cigarettes were stolen from the Gallagher warehouse in north Belfast when a gang held up employees. The PSNI stated the Provisional IRA was responsible for that. The Provisional IRA is also believed to be responsible for the abduction and robbery at a Strabane bank branch on 26 September.

What I find really offensive, and again I say it here in the House with members of Sinn Féin present because I did not go around speaking with a megaphone over Christmas, is that there was an ability to turn off all punishment beatings while negotiations were in progress but as soon as the negotiations failed there was a string of them — they are again a nightly occurrence. I will give Sinn Féin full marks for discipline, but not for anything else.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Taoiseach comment on where we now are and where we are going from here? Will the Taoiseach outline to the House what steps he intends to take to prevent the political process in Northern Ireland descending into an unhealthy and undemocratic vacuum? I take it from what the Taoiseach has said that it is not his intention to allow Sinn Féin to hold the process to ransom. In that regard has he any specific plans in terms of how the process can be kept on track? I am not arguing for the exclusion of anyone but does the Taoiseach agree it was an error of judgment on the part of both Governments for the best part of 12 months to exclude the SDLP, the Ulster Unionist Party, the Alliance and others? Does he have plans in terms of how the democratic parties might be involved in a central way? For instance, is he minded to agree that the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation be reconvened to allow the democratic parties to express their views on the impasse that has occurred?

Is it the case that a van was stolen in this jurisdiction in November, apparently in preparation for the crime we now know to have been the robbery of the Northern Bank, and that it crossed out of this jurisdiction the day before? Does that information form part of the Taoiseach's intelligence on this issue? Without endangering any prosecution that might ensue, is he in a position to put any additional information he has in his possession about this matter into the public domain at this time?

The Taoiseach

In reply to Deputy Rabbitte I reiterate what I said to the parties yesterday. I am not in favour of the politics of exclusion because that would create vacuums that would not help. We have a commitment to implement the Good Friday Agreement and we are determined to continue going down that road. Obviously, if we are to get trust and confidence we then have to get clear answers and commitments on both criminality and decommissioning, otherwise we will not be able to build it up.

On the issue of what way to move now, as the House is aware I have already engaged with the parties. I spoke with the SDLP, UUP as well as Sinn Féin yesterday. Today I had a lengthy telephone conversation with Dr. Paisley. I will meet the Alliance tomorrow, the IMC on Monday and Prime Minister Blair on Tuesday. The difficulty, which I know Deputy Rabbitte understands, is that when the SDLP and the UUP were part of the inner group other parties felt excluded. When the election results changed and the DUP and Sinn Féin were in that position, other parties felt excluded. We try all the time to keep all the parties engaged and we have several meetings. It is always difficult to do that. We never seek to exclude the parties but to keep them involved. We spent a huge amount of time and effort on the decommissioning issue and there was no point in talking to the parties which had nothing to decommission. That happened on other criminal justice issues as well.

Between now and the election we have to engage with all the parties. I do not rule out the forum. If the forum is considered useful I would be happy to have it reconvened as I said yesterday in reply to the SDLP. There is also a slight difficulty with the forum because other parties are out but we can make up for that in other ways and continue to engage in that.

On the question of the security van, I am aware from security intelligence I have been given of the broad movement of the van. It did move through our jurisdiction but it was not taken on this island in the first instance. I am aware of its movements. It was quite sophisticated, well-planned and well executed. It was a van of a very special and rare type and its movements and whereabouts are known to the security forces.

Mr. Rabbitte

I welcome generally what the Taoiseach has said. Whatever about the feelings of parties, the sidelining of central players, even if it is only a matter of perception — in this case it was more than a matter of perception — is not desirable. In respect of what he has said, is he still persuaded of the bona fides of the republican movement or whether the peace process is being used to grow that organisation, North and South of the Border? Has he concerns that his own Government might be putting out conflicting signals? On the day that the persons in respect of the Northern Bank were held hostage, the Taoiseach told "Sunday Supplement", a radio programme, that "paramilitary activity, training, targeting and those things in the Republic — that is not an issue at the moment". The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made a number of speeches to the same effect that criminality had been wound down and earlier the Minister for Foreign Affairs said he foresaw Sinn Féin being in Government here sooner than might be generally anticipated. We also had the statement in the House, in answer to Deputy Kenny, about the release of the killers of Jerry McCabe and the apparent willingness, if the choreography had been right, for a deal to be signed off on in Belfast. Suddenly there was this major bout of criminality to which the Taoiseach has referred. Does the Taoiseach acknowledge it is no wonder that in opinion polls the public might be confused about the significance of this fundamental issue when apparently conflicting signals are being given?

The Taoiseach

That is a fair question. During all of last year security intelligence in the Republic and in the North was that significant moves were being made to make progress as per paragraph 13 on paramilitary activity, training, targeting and such like. At the same time, some large raids took place. Apart from the transparency of decommissioning, which we did not finalise in the comprehensive talks, the final big issue the Government and the Sinn Féin leadership and the Sinn Féin leadership and the IRA were endeavouring to deal with related to criminal activity. It was not possible to get agreement on the formula of words we had put forward. We are left with only one conclusion on that matter now. It was to end the criminality that was going on. We had witnessed almost the total ceasing of punishment beatings and other activities, so much so that Hugh Orde, who has now made statements on this matter which almost everybody in the House supports, went out of his way to make further moves to help the comprehensive agreement in the days immediately before 8 December to help on the demilitarisation front. He felt satisfied and so did the Chief of Staff of the British Army to make those moves. Other activities by the Provisional IRA had increased but these efforts and other issues were still continuing. Our effort was to bring that to an end. We failed to do so in the talks on 8 December and we also had a disagreement on the issue of transparency. This was followed by events such as several punishment shootings both this month and last month. That is the current position. The obligation on us, in spite of where we are, is to try to implement the Good Friday Agreement in all its aspects.

In answer to Deputy Rabbitte's final question, much now depends on what Sinn Féin's reply will be about how it views the two issues of criminality and decommissioning. There is no possibility of being able to go to the other parties — I would not do so anyway — unless we can achieve something major in that area. As I said yesterday, that does not rest with me; it is an issue which rests with the Sinn Féin leadership and the opposite side of the coin, the Provisional IRA.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I wish to make it very clear that I reject criminality in all its forms. Would the Taoiseach be able to make that statement as clearly before the House? He has a neck trying to label any other political party with the criminality tag when one looks at the daily unfolding reality in respect of his political party.

I roundly reject the Taoiseach's repeated and baseless allegations against my party colleagues, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, that they had foreknowledge of the Northern Bank robbery in Belfast and acted in bad faith in the course of the talks last December. I totally reject that charge and call on the Taoiseach to provide the evidence for it given that he repeated it again today in the House. He should present the evidence to the Dáil. The responsibility is on the Taoiseach to substantiate the charge he has made but which he cannot. The reason I say with such certainty that he cannot is that I firmly and absolutely believe there is no foundation to it whatsoever. I reject it and I call on the Taoiseach to withdraw it immediately.

I have no doubt about it, but does the Taoiseach agree that the peace process has unquestionably been damaged by the Northern Bank raid in Belfast? Has he any idea of the serious damage done by his baseless allegation against Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness and the broad Sinn Féin leadership? I do not believe the Taoiseach has any concept of the damage done.

Everybody knows that we represent competing parties not only in respect of general elections but of all other electoral endeavours in this State. It has become ever more apparent that with the realisation that Sinn Féin presents a real and substantial challenge to the Taoiseach's party at the polls in this State, he has moved increasingly to what I see as a situation where he seeks to misrepresent Sinn Féin intent and tries to re-draw the contemporary history of the achievement of a new political dispensation on this island, the end of armed hostilities, the peace process and all that has flowed and has yet to flow from it.

I do not believe for a moment that the Taoiseach's continual outbursts and allegations have anything to do with a bank robbery in Belfast but everything to do with votes in Ballybough and Ballyconnell and everywhere else throughout this jurisdiction.

Mr. O’Dea

Where is the Deputy's party getting the money to buy those votes? It is robbed money.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Ó Caoláin speak without interruption.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

With respect to the little whipper at the Taoiseach's side, we never interrupted you or any of the participants——

Mr. O’Dea

Robbed money.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should allow Deputy Ó Caoláin to speak.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Deputy O'Dea would serve his position and ministerial responsibilities better if he learned to behave himself in this House.

Mr. C. Lenihan

Is the Deputy threatening him?

Mr. D. Ahern

The veil is dropping.

(Interruptions).

Mr. O’Dea

Robbed money.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has given some latitude with time to the other Members but Deputy Ó Caoláin is going well beyond the bounds of what is reasonable.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Does the Taoiseach not agree that in December we were closer to a comprehensive agreement than at any time previously? Does he accept and acknowledge that Sinn Féin, with the Irish Government and others, played a substantive part in the achievement of all that was to be delivered after 8 December? Does the Taoiseach recognise that a comprehensive agreement incorporated all the critical elements committed to by all the parties to the conflict and to the Good Friday Agreement negotiations? Does he not recognise this as the most important project for each and every one of us to address to ensure that we return, regroup and re-explore the potential to overcome the difficulties that presented themselves in the run-up to 8 December——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should conclude as he has gone three minutes over time.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——and to ensure that the peace process is back on track and the two Governments and all parties continue with their commitment to see its full realisation?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Ó Caoláin and all other Members can be certain that all of us will continue to do all the positive actions he has mentioned. We will do our very best because the people voted for the Good Friday Agreement. It is the policy of everybody in this House to continue to do that.

I understand why Deputy Ó Caoláin is looking around for an angle, which in this case is that the reasons are to do with party politics. If I had wished to fight his political party in a party political way, I certainly would not have done what I have been doing in recent years, such as doing everything possible to bring his party into the centre by ignoring all kinds of things and by trying to convince the DUP recently and the UUP for years of the benefits of working with Sinn Féin. I have tried to convince them of the security of doing so. I have tried to convince Presidents Bush and Clinton and President Prodi and others to put money into Northern Ireland to help peace and reconciliation. If I had only been interested in a political fight, I would not have taken those actions. Before we began taking those actions, the Deputy's party was a party with 2% support, but now it has a strong political mandate because people on all sides of this House, from the Labour Party to Fine Gael to Fianna Fáil to the Progressive Democrats to the Green Party, all worked to try to bring Sinn Féin in.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Not at all.

The Taoiseach

We have done so because of our history.

The Deputy must understand that things must be equal. I refer to the kind of tactics in which some of his friends engage. In recent days a man was taken to a lay-by, shot in both hands and suffered a broken jaw. The reason for this assault is not known but it was carried out by the Provisional IRA. An 18 year old received gunshot wounds in both hands in an incident in Seaford Street in east Belfast, responsibility for which lies with the Provisional IRA. A punishment attack was carried out on a 19 year old man. He was shot in both hands and it is believed the Provisional IRA was responsible. The other day, a 19 year old man was shot in both ankles in an alley in Serbia Street, Lower Falls, and it is believed the Provisional IRA was responsible, and blah, blah, blah.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is blah, blah, blah.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach speak without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

I will fight Deputy Kenny's party. We will fight tough and hard politically. I will fight Deputy Rabbitte's party. However, it is very hard to fight that to which I have referred. The Deputy refers to evidence.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What evidence?

The Taoiseach

Does the Deputy want me to name the individual? What would happen to him?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach is abusing his position without evidence.

The Taoiseach

I will defend the facts. I will not go on about this every day but neither will I take it. The Deputy asked where is the evidence. Before I said anything — I did not say much by the way——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach said more and should not have said it.

The Taoiseach

That is not the position. I spoke to Prime Minister Blair, I got a report on what British intelligence was, I got a report from Hugh Orde——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Is that what the Taoiseach is relying on?

The Taoiseach

I am answerable to something with which the Deputy's party has a difficulty. This is the difficulty. When I come into this House, I have to listen to what the Garda Síochána of this country says. Sometimes what it says is not suitable but I have to accept it. In this case, it said that its professional assessment is that it shares the view that the Northern Bank robbery was carried out by the Provisional IRA and that an operation of this scale could not have been undertaken without the knowledge of the leadership of the provisional movement. That is the position.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The Taoiseach is relying on British intelligence.

The Taoiseach

Yes, because I have to listen to it.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

He does not have to listen to it.

The Taoiseach

Should I ignore the Garda?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Shame on the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Does the Garda not tell the truth either?

Mr. C. Lenihan

Does Deputy Ó Caoláin still seek to justify the murder of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Let us get to some specifics. Does the Taoiseach acknowledge that when the effort to get a comprehensive agreement failed, Sinn Féin and the British Government proceeded to explore how the Governments could deliver on the contributions they had made and that this continued up to Christmas? Will he acknowledge that the Government was less than enthusiastic about that? Will he acknowledge that those efforts must continue if we are to get out of this impasse and this exchange of bile? Did the British Government present the Irish Government with a paper on the exchanges from 8 December up to Christmas?

The Taoiseach should make no mistake that my colleagues and I stand here on our mandate received from the Irish electorate and we will continue to represent that electorate. They are not second class citizens and nor are we. We will continue to present a republican challenge to a continued failure on the part of the Taoiseach and his party in ceding responsibility for all public utterances on the most important issue to be addressed in this country today to a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who would label Bobby Sands MP a criminal and, by the same criteria, would label as criminals the man whose portrait hangs in the Taoiseach's office and all those who were executed in 1916. That is what the Taoiseach has done and the grassroots of his organisation are saying repeatedly that it is a shame and scandal that he has handed responsibility for the peace process to a man and party who have made zero contribution to it from its inception.

The Taoiseach

What Deputy Ó Caoláin said at the start of his contribution is correct — we have to move forward. As I said in reply to Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte, what would be enormously helpful in that is the answers to the questions and issues we put yesterday. If we can make progress on those, we can all move forward.

I am always amused at how things change. A few weeks ago I was under some question in this House for being over-generous to Sinn Féin in the comprehensive settlement. Now, a few weeks later matters have moved so differently

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Taoiseach answer the question I put to him? Did the British Government provide the Government with a paper?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is interrupting because he wants me to answer a question. The question is whether we continued right up until the robbery. The Deputy knows what happened then and what was the British Government's view on the paper then.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

More enthusiastic Dublin Government representation has never been seen.

The Taoiseach

We will continue to try to engage but if the Deputy is trying to say that Prime Minister Blair was trying to make a deal in Christmas week, which allowed criminality or decommissioning to go ahead, that is not the case. The Deputy knows that is not the case and he knows the official who deals with that matter and how let down that official is today.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach should keep sidetracking. He is a master of evasion.