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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 May 2005

Vol. 602 No. 3

Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2005: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

We have devoted a great deal of time to Second Stage which shows that politicians love to talk about the mechanics of politics. It is right that we should discuss the make-up of our constituencies but I hope we do not neglect the other more important issues of the day in this House.

This Bill is of great interest to me in two respects, in my role as a Deputy representing Dublin North-Central and also a chairman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government. My constituency is set to lose a seat if this Bill is passed as it stands. Although I deeply regret the fact that the people of Dublin North-Central will be forced to relinquish a public representative as the number of seats in the constituency is reduced from four to three, I am happy in the knowledge that this will happen as the result of clear, methodical and pragmatic analysis.

Dublin North-Central has a long history of boundary changes and adjustments in the number of its seats. Since it was established in 1947, Dublin North-Central has lost or gained a seat three times, switching from three to four seats at each revision. My constituents have accepted these alternations given that they were fair and justified. I know they will agree to the amendments currently proposed. The changes which are to be enacted stem from the advice given by an impartial panel and are necessary, in particular, because of the nature of our democracy.

This Bill has been attacked by Members of the House as being "flawed and undemocratic". I refer to comments made by Deputy Finian McGrath when speaking on Second Stage in the House on 27 April 2005. The Deputy also said the Bill shows a "lack of respect for citizens". I argue that the case is precisely the opposite. The method of election here, of which all Members present are well aware, is proportional representation. This means that any election result is directly related to the size of the population. Therefore, to keep the system as democratic as possible, the Government must take responsive action, having regard to population changes.

The Electoral Commission stated its intention to give particular attention to those constituencies "with variances exceeding 5% from national average representation". As it stands, the percentage variance from the national average representation in Dublin North-Central is minus 11.89%. This Bill will address this huge disparity by bringing it to within 4% and will also allow bordering constituencies to be brought further into line with the national average such that Dublin North-Central, Dublin North-East and Dublin North-West — I note the presence of one of the Deputies respecting the later constituency, the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern — will be well within 1% of the average.

The knock-on effect of this is that other parts of the country will also benefit from revision and the net result will be a more balanced democracy. We cannot ignore the importance of this. It is imperative that we have a fluid political system that is open to such change which is now being facilitated by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in this Bill. If we did not allow for such change, and welcome it, then the system would become static and we would be justified in labelling it undemocratic for it would not successfully reflect the wishes of the population as intended. To ignore population change is to pave the way forward for an unbalanced degree of influence on the part of the electors and, at the extreme end of the scale, the development of something like the infamous "rotten borough", a term loaded with notions of misconduct and one which, thankfully, has never been associated with this State.

Dublin North-Central has been a four seat constituency since 1980. Much has changed in the past 25 years and notably it is one of only three constituencies in the country to have lost population since the 1996 census. I welcome the commission's recommendation to alter the boundaries of the constituency accordingly.

It is interesting to study what is happening in Dublin North-Central. Many Members present would be surprised to learn that the population of a Dublin constituency quite close to the River Liffey is declining. Many elderly people live in many estates in the constituency. Young people from the area who leave the family home, get married and set up house are moving to the suburbs of Dublin North, County Meath and so on. It is a pattern with which we are familiar. It allows us to examine further the population changes and to plan accordingly. We are all familiar with the problem of suburban sprawl. Those who canvassed in the Meath by-election in particular had this message clearly brought home to them. We must examine how we can attract population back into the centre city areas and into the inner city suburbs. A policy of high density development is being facilitated which I welcome in some respects. Nevertheless, we must be careful in our planning that we do not destroy the traditional neighbourhood communities which have characterised Dublin North-Central and neighbouring constituencies over the years. That is a digression from the subject of the Bill, but there are major planning issues arising from the population changes currently taking place.

Prior to the establishment of the current system of revising constituencies through the advice of an independent commission, alteration was at the discretion of a Minister. We are all aware of the problems that this method brought in its train. One Minister had the dishonour of being added to the political lexicon as a result of his attempts to gerrymander constituencies in what he believed to be in favour of his Government. His attempts failed spectacularly, hence the term "Tullymander". But at least some good came of his actions when an independent commission was established to address constituency change.

The point I am making is that while the system then in place was quite obviously open to charges of malpractice, such charges applied to the system we have today serve only to scar the reputation of this House in the eyes of the citizens of this country and the international community. This is a needless and disruptive practice, and any argument put forward in this debate that is built on the principle that this legislation is undemocratic is inherently weak. To accuse an independent commission of conspiring to gerrymander is undermining and bruising to our democracy. A Bill of this type will inevitably come under attack from elements in the Opposition benches. Their arguments are rarely new and are never founded on an objective and pragmatic analysis of the issues.

The Irish Times recently published an article on this legislation entitled New electoral boundaries will make or break some careers. I suspect this encapsulates the fears of some of those Deputies who attacked this legislation as being driven by so-called anti-democratic values. If they were genuinely concerned for the well-being of our electoral system, they would not be reduced to such unhelpful and unwarranted attacks. We have an electoral system in place in this country which is the envy of less fortunate countries across the globe. It must be treated with respect and managed carefully so that it retains its stature. This Bill ensures that it does and I commend it to the House.

I would like to make a final point. In 2007, all going well, my family will have given 50 years of public service to the people of Dublin North-Central. The reduction of seats in this constituency from four to three will make it very competitive for all candidates contesting the next general election. The electorate will decide who will be returned to Leinster House. I hope the people of Dublin North-Central will re-elect me as one of their three Deputies to allow me to continue to represent them effectively to the best of my ability for the duration of the 30th Dáil.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill, which will form the basis for the conduct of the upcoming general election, which may occur in one or two years.

The Bill proposes a total of 43 constituencies, one more than the previous constituency revision, but without any increase in the number of Deputies to be elected to the Dáil, which remains at 166. Given that the population has increased by approximately 25% in the past 15 years, it might be an appropriate time to consider increasing the number of Deputies to 168. Some people may feel there are too many of us, but that is life.

The Bill provides for a total of 12 five-seat constituencies, 13 four-seat constituencies and 18 three-seat constituencies. As Deputy Haughey said, it is a new feature that we are beginning to increase the number of three-seat constituencies. Nevertheless, even though the overall number of Dáil Deputies will remain the same, the Bill will have the effect of changing considerably the political landscape. It allows for a more sweeping revision of constituency boundaries than many previous revisions. It changes 23 constituencies, leaving 15 unchanged, creates five new constituencies and replaces four existing ones.

Electoral systems are a significant part of the web of legal and civil institutions that societies construct to govern themselves. In the early years of the State, multi-member constituencies were not uncommon, with as many as six and seven members from each constituency. For the Northern Ireland Assembly elections, multi-seat constituencies are the norm, with six and seven members elected in most areas. During the recent election in Northern Ireland we witnessed, on the one hand, six and seven seat constituencies and, on the other, the one man one vote system, which lead to tactical voting. This does not allow people to vote for the individuals they want. Proportional representation is the purest form of representation in that it ensures that Deputies are elected more or less in proportion to the number of votes cast for each party grouping.

The first Dáil adopted a system of multi-member constituencies, returning as many as eight and nine Deputies, and it ensured that the widest cross section of interests were represented in Dáil Éireann. The original intentions of the nation-builders in the 1920s was not to design a system that would be applied to a vast majority of three-seat constituencies. The independent electoral commission's hands were tied by the Government's stipulation that constituencies were to be confined to three, four and five-seat constituencies. It could not have decided to return to six-seat constituencies. The electoral commission also has in its terms of reference the stipulation that there should be an average representation of one Deputy per 22,598 people. This is subject to a 5% deviation either way and that county boundaries would be adhered to as far as possible.

County loyalty is still very strong throughout the country. The electoral commission members followed the county boundary stipulation as far as possible in the past. Unfortunately, the tendency towards a proliferation of three-seat constituencies leads to a gross distortion of PR, since a disproportionate number of Deputies, two out of three, is frequently returned as against the votes cast. The effect of such a multiplicity of three-seat constituencies is to minimise the number of minority Deputies elected. A truer reflection of voters' preferences would emerge from a general election if there were 20 five-seat, 12 four-seat and six three-seat constituencies.

The original purpose of the PR system was to return a correct proportion of Deputies from the various parties as close as possible to the proportions of the votes cast for the various party groups. It has been said that PR makes every vote count and produces results that are proportionate to what the voters desire. Experience has shown that proportional representation has produced successful governments less ignorant to citizens' needs. Accordingly, citizens become less apathetic and more content with the way the system works. It has proved itself to be the most dependable method of electing Deputies to Dáil Éireann, even though its effectiveness has been steadily eroded down the years by the reduction of constituency representation. Even though the 23 female Members of the House is a long way short of what it should be, PR encourages women to have a greater representation in our Parliament compared with the British system.

The skewed results that emanate from a preponderance of three-seat constituencies depart radically from the spirit and purpose of PR. They provide results that are frequently at variance with the voters' intentions. How can 66% of the seats in an area that are won with 47% of votes cast be construed as representing the democratic will of the people of the area? The number of three-seat constituencies continues to grow, diminishing the proportional nature of the electoral system and getting as close as possible to the effect of a system of single member constituencies.

The proportional nature of the system has been largely diluted by the proposal to split County Leitrim down the middle. Leitrim is being divided between counties Sligo and Roscommon to form two new constituencies of Sligo-North Leitrim and Roscommon-South Leitrim. It is quite conceivable that we could get back to the situation that prevailed in the 1970s when Leitrim was similarly divided between Roscommon and Sligo. I listened to Deputy Ellis who was very eloquent in dealing with this matter. I would not be surprised if he is re-elected in his constituency. He spoke very well and made a very strong case. At the time there was not a single Deputy from County Leitrim elected in either constituency and the people of the county were effectively disenfranchised for several years until the county was reunited in the constituency of Sligo-Leitrim.

Shifts in population require that constituency boundaries be redrawn from time to time to reflect the population shifts reported in the census. According to the recent census in 2002, Ireland has a population of just over 3.9 million. It also reported dramatic differences in the rate of population growth in different areas of the country. We all know there is a leaning towards the east coast and that the population is not increasing to the same extent in rural areas. This is because of the failure of our decentralisation programme. If we are to increase the population in certain areas, we should reconsider decentralisation, promote industry and create jobs in rural areas.

The manipulation of constituency boundaries in the past used to be known as gerrymandering. There are several notorious examples of efforts to secure party advantage in the House practised by different Governments. Gerrymandering was the political weapon of choice. Its main purposes were to protect the seats of incumbent Deputies and to allow the dominant party to win more seats than it deserved. There were opportunities for Governments to gain a few extra seats for themselves.

The overall number of Deputies has been fixed by law at between 164 and 168. I made reference to the need to consider increasing this number. The electoral commission, which adheres strictly to its terms of reference, has been cited as the reason we have not had overall majorities for over 25 years.

In the United Kingdom's first-past-the-post system, minority groups are either left out or under-represented and the overall results merely provide an illusion of political consensus. The first-past-the-post system produces serious distortions that are remedied by a PR system. In the United Kingdom, for example, the former Liberal Party, now the Liberal Democrats, frequently polled over 30% of the votes cast in the country, yet returned with a paltry 11 or 12 seats out of 630.

The claim that winner-takes-all elections are inherently more capable of bridging political divides does not bear up under scrutiny. Such is the main fallacy of the single-member constituency, be it in the British first-past-the-post system or our by-election system, in which just one person is elected by the single transferable vote.

The single-member constituency would put independent or minority candidates at an extreme disadvantage in the face of the massive machines of major parties. I have no doubt that many in this House would like to see this happen. I listened to one gentleman from Mayo yesterday who would be absolutely delighted if there were a way of getting rid of Independents. Independents have a place in this Dáil. We are well established here and raise relevant issues, to the extent that major political parties sometimes adopt those issues as their own a week later. Independent voices are being heard and make an impression in the Dáil. The establishment of single-member constituencies would have the effect of minimising the number of Deputies from smaller parties or Independents in the House.

One of the most common criticisms of the PR system concerns its instability. The repeated collapse of the rather shaky coalitions in Israel and Italy creates policy uncertainty and doubts about their governments' long-term viability. The principal problem with PR is that it tends to entrench in power the leadership of the major parties. For most of the half century after the Second World War, no matter how the Italian voters twisted or turned, they found themselves ruled by a government dominated by Christian Democrats and the Socialist Party. Governments fell routinely but the same cast of candidates continued to shuffle Cabinet chairs and to ramble on as before. The end came with the emergence of a regionally dominant business-friendly party that ran on an anti-corruption campaign. However, PR made it harder rather than easier to turf out the broadly unwanted governing parties.

Another drawback of the PR system is the quality of policy choices made by cohabiting governing parties. This is a dynamic problem. A junior coalition partner that supports the dominant party's position may find itself readily forgotten and electorally unrewarded. Hence, the current policy divergence between the current Government partners over the provision of a second terminal at Dublin Airport. In another country, the very suggestion that such a difference could be responsible for the downfall of a government would be regarded as ludicrous.

Our population of 3.9 million is at its highest since the great famine. Consequently, one would think an addition to the number of seats in the Dáil is warranted. However, the electoral commission was probably gauging public opinion in balancing population shifts with the current 166 Dáil seats.

Many have argued in favour of having fewer Deputies and various maximum numbers of seats, ranging from 60 to 100, have been advocated. Some argue that democracy would benefit if fewer Deputies, who would be suitably qualified and more highly paid, were elected. However, who would determine what is meant by "suitably qualified"? As the only Independent Deputy for the constituency of Cavan-Monaghan, I do not subscribe to the idea.

Our public representatives are readily accessible to their constituents, irrespective of whether they voted for them. In an effort to bring democracy closer to the people, I intend to make myself as available as possible in the Cavan-Monaghan constituency. I have taken the initial steps to increase the number of locations in which I hold clinics. I am doing so in County Monaghan initially and when this is done I will re-examine my position on holding clinics in County Cavan.

A good policy.

I have decided my office in Clones will be open every Tuesday evening from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m.

Fair play to the Deputy.

People will know I will be available in a particular town at a particular time. My office in Ballybay is open from 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. on a Tuesday evening. The people of the town know that Paudge Connolly's clinic is open and accessible to them at this time.

Hear, hear.

I hold a clinic in Castleblayney every Monday from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. The people in Castleblayney know they can meet an Independent Deputy in their town each Monday night. This is what Members of the Oireachtas are paid for. I also hold a clinic in Carrickmacross at 4 p.m. on the first Thursday of every month.

My idea was so good that a major political party decided the very next week to run clinics every first Saturday. Is it a case of great minds or fools thinking alike? I was glad I was the first to have this good idea because otherwise I could have been accused of copying it. Maybe the people will realise I have set this trend. It will change the face of politics in County Monaghan. It is very important to locate one's office where the people are.

It is only in recent times that politicians have thought it worth their while to open offices in local towns. It is a new way and circumstances have changed. In the past, clinics were sporadic and constituents did not know exactly when they would be held. They had to watch the paper like a hawk to find out. Now they know they can meet a politician in a given place at a given time. This is why we are elected.

Hear, hear.

We are well-paid for it and this is how it should be.

Consider the issue of people who do not bother to vote. They have different reasons. Some feel they are too much above voting to bother sullying themselves with the process.

They are basking in their own reflected glory.

Others feel they are making a stand against the system and getting their own back by not voting. Perhaps the political parties are guilty to the extent that they do not recruit new members. Recruitment is almost a forgotten art. I cannot accuse every party of not recruiting new members but many of the major parties ignore the public. If one asks why someone joined a party he or she will say it was the only party that invited him or her. When one joins a party one is indoctrinated, to an extent. That is how the party operates. The member enjoys the tap on the shoulder and the feeling that in the party's eyes he or she is special.

Many people have a very low opinion of politicians in general, whether that be right or wrong. There may be many reasons for that. People are surprised to hear that, like schoolchildren, we get our summer holidays at the beginning of July. The perception is that we are a group of self-serving people. I am not unique in working here for a minimum of 90 hours a week, but that message is not delivered to the people. It would not sell newspapers. It is easy to criticise the system and we are the butt of that criticism and that will continue to be so.

If people who do not vote understood what some people have done to win the vote they would appreciate that right. For example, there was a time when women did not have the right to vote or to education. In 1913, Emily Wilding Davison threw herself in front of the king's horse and died in order to win the vote for women.

Flora Drummond chained herself to the railings of Downing Street in the same cause.

In states that did not have the franchise people walked for days and queued in the sun to win votes. A referendum in 1972 reduced the voting age here from 21 to 18 years.

We should consider introducing Sunday voting. It has proved successful elsewhere so why not adopt it here? If we persist in holding elections on a Friday one central electoral station should be designated in each major university city, such as Galway, Cork or Dublin, to facilitate students on the day of the election. When students return home on a bus or train on a Friday evening they are not thinking about the election. They may have family, sporting or social commitments. They are tired after a hard week's work and look forward to socialising when they come home at the weekends.

No debate on electoral reform would be complete without a reference to the electronic voting system. The mishandling of its introduction was such that people will shy away from using the system. Equipment worth €50 million is in storage and continues to cost us money. We should revisit that process.

I should dissuade the Deputy from going off on tangents in view of the fact that his speaking time has expired.

It was not a tangent. Electronic voting is relevant to this Bill, as is the fact that it costs a large sum of money to store the machines week by week. We should reconsider this matter because electronic voting is the way forward. The notion of closing schools——

Definitely not. Never.

I believe it is. We should examine the system to create a paper trail as we requested initially.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Electoral (Amendment) Bill. Many constituencies and boundaries have been changed which adds to the intrigue and the difficulties facing political parties and candidates. This is particularly so in my constituency of Cork North West which will be one of the most interesting and complex constituencies in the next election.

We have reviewed constituencies since the foundation of the State and will continue to do so. All the reports of the independent constituency commission have been accepted.

Many people believe proportional representation and the multi-seat constituency make the election too constituency and client-orientated. The other side of that argument is that candidates grow close to the needs of people in their constituencies. After a weekend in their constituency clinics and advice offices they understand the pertinent issues. A single seat constituency might suit a sitting Deputy or politician but proportional representation is probably the best system for the general public. The most important aspect of an election is to ensure people have representation and our system is conducive to achieving that representation.

Politics is over-analysed and has become a global phenomenon. Previous speakers have said how difficult it is to attract new people into politics. In recent years we have seen a decline in voter turnout at elections across the spectrum, whether the election is held on a Thursday or Friday. Holding elections on a Sunday would make no difference because people are becoming detached from politics and politicians, which is to the detriment of all parties.

I spoke recently to a group of young people and asked their views of politics. They regard politics as remote from their lives. In 1975 Jack Lynch, then leader of Fianna Fáil, set up the first youth organisation of any political party, Ógra Fianna Fáil. In his opening speech he said "whether it be to join and support or indeed to strongly oppose us, we in Fianna Fáil exhort each and every young person in this State to become involved in political organisations". We must spread this message. All politicians discuss politics with civics, social and political education classes in second level schools. They probably lay out their stalls there too, as we all must do in advance of an election. The most important job we can do is to encourage young people to participate in the democratic process and to understand that their contribution can influence policy.

Ireland is a rich country whose identity has developed over years of upheaval yet we have a tradition of creativity and culture. To share our opinions on politics or on any subject we must be informed and the great interest in politics through the generations is testament to the excellent standard of education in this country over the past century. Consideration of policies and politics tests each of us and broadens our understanding of people's behaviour, thus making us more broad-minded and creating a more inclusive and progressive society.

To play our part in politics we must understand them. Young people and people generally across the country associate politics, electoral Bills and elections with politicians being elected to the Dáil, the Seanad and various local authorities throughout the country but politics is about life. For the past eight years I have been honoured to be a Member of this House representing Cork North-West. The more I see of life here the more I see that it mirrors life throughout the country. One has the same characters in this House that one has in any community. They are representative of Irish life and true proportional representation in any parliament should mirror life outside it. That is the function of the national parliament.

If we consider any community, life, events and the environment will continuously test its beliefs. History teaches us that in striving for an ideal many obstacles must be overcome. Policy makers must find compromise and dialogue must be used as the ultimate tool in the resolution of difficulties. Some people have great enthusiasm and ambition and great ideas come from this. Though they may not want to talk about their opinions, many people have an idea of the Ireland in which they want to live. This vision is based primarily on people's lives and has been formulated by families, school, environment and the part they play in the local community. In politics or personal life the key to success is to play an important role in the development of one's community. This may be in the sporting, musical or party political domain. Through such involvement everyone will develop their interpersonal skills and learn from those around them.

Young people bring blind enthusiasm that often makes the impossible possible. That great enthusiasm can rejuvenate an organisation and reawaken an entire community. Involvement in any organisation is character-building while complacency creates a dormant society, without progress or hope. Throughout this country we should sell this notion to everyone. I could list the community groups in my own constituency that have done excellent work on behalf of their community. Consider the people at the forefront of development of the community or organisations. These people are great leaders and we should encourage people to get involved in their own communities and local organisations. Through that they take pride in their organisations.

I sometimes become disillusioned when I hear that it is a terrible country to live in, or that some community is a terrible one in which to live. This kind of statement makes me angry. It is easy to be the hurler on the ditch, taking a swipe at anyone who is leading in his or her community or organisation. It is easy to say that he or she should do things differently. The most important thing is to get people involved because everyone's ideas are needed. One can take a cynical view of anything and say that nothing can be changed. Anyone involved in politics can make a change and can state what he or she would like for the community. Getting involved in a political party leads to friendships being made and being broken. A leading politician in this House, who had been secretary of the local GAA club at one time said that he had created more enemies as secretary of his GAA club than in 20 years of national politics. That may be partially true.

My constituency, Cork North-West, is predominantly rural. In 1997 media commentators said that it was one of the forgotten constituencies. There was never media focus on it. Alas, that will not happen this time even though we might like if it did happen. There will be plenty of activity. The constituency stretches from Rockchapel, Milford and Charleville through to Ballincollig, which will be included in the constituency as part of this Bill. There is a broad cross-section of people. Major developments have taken place over the past eight years. Like any rural constituency it has changed with the advent of the Celtic Tiger and with new people moving in.

One of the most important things that happened in Cork North-West over the past eight years is the change in the employment rate. Ten or 15 years ago young people educated in my constituency had to emigrate to Liverpool, Boston or New York to find a job. Thankfully that is no longer the case and the situation is reversed. Non-nationals are coming to the area to find work in this community. Despite the non-nationals coming in the number of people on the live register is decreasing further. People say that 20 years ago if we could see a situation of full employment for our people we would never again see a poor day. However, with full employment we have other pressures.

One issue that arises in rural constituencies, and particularly my own, is planning permission, and planning for young people living there. We have provided employment for them and it is important for all local and national politicians to ensure that policies are implemented so that young people can build homes in their local communities. It is important that some regulations regarding rural planning are not interpreted in a very strict manner. In my parish there were 76 more family homes than there are today. If someone built 76 more homes tomorrow dotted around the countryside the planning authorities would almost have a seizure. Now that we have secured employment we must allow people to stay in their communities and it is important that we provide planning for them in rural areas.

In the by-elections in Meath and Kildare we saw the huge suburban growth of Dublin. Over the past ten years the population of Dublin has doubled. I wonder whether communities are being put in place for all the houses that have been built. People become attached to their community if there is a strong sense of community. Traditionally our society has been based on a strong sense of community to which people have a strong attachment. It is important to have a strong sense of community, otherwise all we have are housing estates.

In the west and in much of my constituency there are small rural towns and villages that have the ability to take extra houses given that the nucleus of sporting facilities and schools are in place. Planners should take those issues into consideration.

A major issue in all constituencies is the provision of child care facilities. Many of the community-funded child care projects had a three-year staffing grant. However, staff costs have escalated and they now have a deficit and will not be able to continue to operate. I am aware the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is reviewing community-based projects. It is important that it considers the issue seriously and increases its contribution. As the Government has provided funding to the tune of €1.5 million for various projects, we must ensure that funding is provided to ensure staffing for these projects.

I have been chairman of Ógra Fianna Fáil for the past seven years during which time we have had many discussions with young people who have been turned off politics. When one visits any college campus, one has a great recruitment day during freshers' week. Like all the political parties, we move in the machine and try to get as many as possible signed up to the organisation. During the year, fewer turn up at meetings. Sometimes people become cynical of politics. At times we jump on the bandwagon in a constituency when an announcement is made. We may have criticised the particular project for some time but, when it is announced, we say we played a major part in it. We create some of the reasons people are cynical with politics.

The decentralisation programme was discussed on the media this morning. I am pleased that the decision by the Government on decentralisation, 18 months ago, is progressing well. In the case of Kanturk, County Cork, a site has been identified. We have promoted this issue from day one. Ireland is not a huge sprawling nation with millions of acres of land but a small nation in which we can communicate and run our businesses effectively whether in Kanturk, Knock or Dublin 4. If units of the apparatus of State are based in small provincial towns, one gets a cross-section of views rather than the Dublin understanding of what is needed. I welcome the Government's decision to proceed with the decentralisation programme and to identify sites in all 53 locations. I am pleased it has identified a site and has agreed a sum of money with the landowner in regard to Kanturk, County Cork. I urge the Government to ensure decentralisation will become a reality.

Like many Deputies before, it has been my privilege and honour to represent Cork North-West in Dáil Éireann for almost eight years. Let us hope the people of Cork North-West will put their faith in me again at the next general election——

That is the proof.

After the Deputy.

The Deputy should not worry. I will stay on.

——and ensure I have the opportunity to represent them to the best of my ability. I have certainly enjoyed the opportunity of representing them here during the past seven years. The people can rest assured I will work tirelessly on their behalf.

I call Deputy Durkan who has 20 minutes.

Twenty minutes would not do justice to all one could say on a Bill of this nature but I will do my best.

The Deputy's constituency got an extra seat.

I intend to refer to that in passing. As Scripture says, the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. In this case the constituency boundary commission took it away on the first occasion and gave it back on this occasion.

The Deputy is a happy man.

I have seen worse situations.

In the words of a good Kildare man, the Deputy is a happy man.

On the last occasion the boundary commission visited my constituency, it left it in such a way that I had great difficulty in getting elected afterwards. Hopefully, it will not be as difficult on the next occasion. However, that is what happens with commission boundaries in every country. It is part of the democratic system and sometimes one falls on the right side of the line and sometimes not. Fortunately we have an independent commission which I hope will continue to be independent. I respect its decisions. However, I was not as welcoming on the previous occasion for the simple reason that it had obvious implications for me.

In general, I welcome the Bill although I have a number of reservations. Other speakers have referred to the public perception of politics and politicians. For a variety of reasons it has become fashionable to criticise politicians and to presume every public representative is in some way corrupt, semi-corrupt, about to be or has been corrupted. I do not agree with that nor do I accept that kind of criticism. The majority of public representatives are honest, hard-working and dedicated individuals and contribute a great deal of time to democracy and serving the needs of their constituents. It may be that sometimes the needs of constituents are difficult to satisfy. In the nature of things, some are impossible. As a result, it is possible for the public to get the notion that we are deficient in the way we do our work. The majority of public representatives and Members have in the past given of their time, energy and service in a selfless way.

In many other professions in Ireland, Europe and throughout the world, there are those who have erred and fallen by the wayside in at least as grievous a way as any of the Members who fell by the wayside from this House. It covers all professions. One does not condemn all professions because of the wrongs of one or two individuals. It is no harm to remind everybody once in a while that some of us try to work as hard as we can for the reasons we were elected, which is to serve our constituencies and to legislate.

There is a notion in the thinking quarters that a legislator should be ensconced in a glass case where he or she has no dealings with the public and that they should legislate from that vantage point. I disagree unequivocally with that view. Other speakers made the point that meeting their constituents on a regular basis is the best inspiration there will ever be for legislation.

There is no other way to evaluate the impact of legislation passed by this House other than by going and meeting the people regularly and finding out how legislation as passed by this House affects them. It all comes down to the way the legislation affects the individual. One of the problems arising in recent years is the degree to which that old tradition of meeting the people on a regular basis is beginning to dim. Some people believe that it influences public representatives in a negative way but I do not agree. The public will always respond to their representatives and tell them what they think. It may not always be what we want to hear but they will always tell us.

I wonder why young people do not hold politicians in high esteem. There is no need to ask that question and I regret the Minister of State at the Department for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has left the Chamber. The housing situation is a classic case. The young generation relied on the political system to deliver the goods to them. They are quite willing to co-operate and make an effort to assist themselves. Down the years politicians were able to encourage the younger generation, the first-time house buyer, to buy their own homes but this is no longer the case. They have been virtually excluded from the system. The waiting lists are massive, with at least 100,000 waiting. The lists are growing in every county. This is an absolute disgrace and a shame on the system which has allowed it to happen.

A previous speaker referred to young people seeking planning permission in rural areas. It is deemed to be almost a nasty thing to suggest looking for planning permission in a rural area because, according to some pundits, nobody should be living in a rural area as these are gardens which should be preserved for certain people to take a walk on a Sunday and observe the local inhabitants in their natural habitat. I do not agree with that notion. There has always been a tradition of a rural population and any interference with that tradition is interfering with the normal and natural evolution of the rural population. There are those who believe a hillside at night should have no lights visible. It has been stated unequivocally by Professor Caulfield that lights on a rural hillside are a sign of life and a sign that emigration is not as rife as it was.

Hear, hear.

It is a sign of revival and of hope for the future. I take no advice from any quarter on that issue because I was born and raised in a rural area. I do not wish to see a situation as pertained in eastern Europe when the communists took over after the Second World War. They scooped all the people out of the rural areas and built tower blocks for them beside the cities and towns in order to control them. I see a little of that attitude beginning to emerge in this country and I do not like it.

Reference has been made to the PR system. I believe in the PR system. It is the finest possible method for achieving democracy. I do not agree with the notion that it should be further refined and improved because this has been done in the past. Many commentators question the reason people do not vote and I can suggest a reason. Some years ago the Government — I think it was a Government from the other side of the House — decided to ——

The Government usually comes from this side of the House.

I remind the Deputy they did a lot of other funny things. The Government decided to ban people from congregating outside polling stations, the reason being that modern voters did not want unclean and unwashed groups of rednecks outside the polling stations interfering with their natural process. The result was that people did not turn out to vote. One of the main reasons people went to vote at polling stations was because the occasion was like a football match. It was part of our tradition and part of the system. A Fianna Fáil guy and a Fine Gael guy could have a great time in a pub together one night and then have a go at each other at the polling station in front of everybody else, to the general jollification of the multitudes there assembled. One cannot tell that story to some of the bright-thinking individuals who now represent big brother——

Pseudo-intellectuals.

I would not use the word "intellectual". They are thinkers.

There was a ritual of going down to the polling station and having a go at one's next-door neighbour and the same people were quite happy to go to the pub the following night and it was all forgotten.

What did the Pioneers do?

Funnily enough, they had a go at each other as well. The fact they were Pioneers did not inhibit their capacity to have a go at each other and they did so on many occasions.

They are the most generous of all. They always knew the next morning what they had said.

The theory was that polling day was a day for politics and democracy, a day for the ritual big occasion in which everybody was involved. I ask that this notion of measuring the distance from the polling station be scrapped.

At the first election held following this rule, we had to search for the polling stations. I know the stations in my constituency and I know the ones where Deputy Seán Power did well, but I had to look around for them because there were no crowds outside. The spectacle and ritual of the occasion was done away with.

I cannot allow the occasion pass without referring to this awful debacle of electronic voting. This is a classic example where it was decided to improve democracy and improve the voting system that had served us well since the foundation of the State. Like those who attempted to improve the roundness of the wheel, so far the net benefits have not been visible to anybody. Only one system of voting should be allowed, where the voter goes into the polling station and puts their mark on the paper, as happens in democracies all over the world. If an electronic voting system was introduced in some emerging democracies, we would immediately hold up our hands and warn the system was open to abuse because it lacks transparency, accountability, a paper trail and verification. It is impossible to invent technology that is sufficiently foolproof.

I refer to the Order Paper of this House and the electronic scramble of Members' names for parliamentary questions. On one occasion I counted five Members whose questions appeared consecutively on the Order Paper. The same Deputy had Questions Nos. 35 and 36, another Deputy had Questions Nos. 37 and 38, and another Deputy had Questions Nos. 40 and 42. This should not happen because I am informed the odds are 500 million to one of this happening in the electronic system.

I ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to cut out this nonsense of keeping electronic voting equipment in storage all over the country — all the equipment is not stored yet. This is in anticipation of the big event which will be hugely costly. The electronic equipment will soon be out of date and it will not work. This was pointed out by the Opposition. Someone must call a halt to the nonsense of spending public money without consultation and in the knowledge that it could not succeed. It is amazing that nobody has accepted responsibility. Nobody has resigned and nobody has been fired.

They may think otherwise but I have the height of respect for Independent Members. It has happened that people disagree with their party and become Independent Members. This is a democracy and it is their right to do so. Whichever Government is in power, it loves having many Independent Members because it takes the focus away from the Opposition parties. It clearly indicates what the Independents are, which is independent. It gives members of the public a way to salve their conscience at election time because they can claim not to have voted for the Government and voted for an Independent instead who may be neither in the Government nor in the Opposition. Some Independents will occasionally vote with the Government and at other times vote with the Opposition. Other Independents will always vote with either the Government or the Opposition. I do not accept the notion that it is necessarily good for the country. I do nothing other than congratulate my colleague recently elected as an Independent in my constituency. If I were in Government, I would love to see more Independent Members elected to the House because I would know the chances of the Government being put out of office would grow slimmer with more Independent Members.

The Standards in Public Office Commission recommended a change in the legislation resulting in section 6 of the Bill. This change came about as a result of the famous Kelly case which took place the day after the previous general election was called. Mr. Kelly was a member of the Fianna Fáil Party. Despite the annoyance he caused that party, he subsequently successfully sought a nomination and ran for election.

That is democracy.

I agree. However, the degree of annoyance expressed by some of his colleagues at the time was significant. However, giving someone a nomination hardly shows annoyance. The amendment introduced by the previous Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government obviously created an anomaly. That the judgment in the Kelly case was delivered the day before the general election meant that all the then serving Members of the House and all the candidates had to go through the election campaign not knowing what the outcome would be. They had a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads for the duration of the election campaign. I do not believe that is democracy.

It was the least of our concerns during the election.

Fianna Fáil might have had other concerns. However, I will not go down that road. I do not accept that it is good for democracy for something like this to happen. It is one matter for candidates to look over their shoulders and wonder what the outcome of an election might be. It is an entirely different matter if after the election they are faced with the possibility of a change in the rules applying retrospectively, which was the part I found particularly objectionable. This does not mean it might not be necessary to go to the courts to deal with other matters. However, I believe the separation of powers came very close to being breached on that occasion.

This amendment inserts a subparagraph clarifying the items which are not to be regarded as election expenses at presidential, Dáil and European elections, including free postage provided for candidates. Presumably this refers to postage paid by political parties or the State. However, it could also refer to postage provided by anybody else. Also included is a service provided free by an individual or provided by an employee of a political party. The Kelly case was based on the outgoing Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas having access to their offices, computers etc., which was deemed to be an unfair advantage. However, many candidates had free access to many offices throughout the country. Some of these offices were vast and huge resources were available.

Some of us were very fastidious in the way we curtailed our expenditure during the previous general election. I came in at approximately €16,500 in a three-seat constituency and almost lost my seat. All the time we were warned of the danger of exceeding the expenditure levels. When I saw the expenditure declared afterwards by some candidates, I could not see how everybody had complied. However, it was deemed to be compliant, which I could not understand. Certain matters need to be clarified for the future. Also included is normal media coverage. How in the name of God could normal media coverage be included as an election expense? A candidate who tripped and fell could have four or five photographs published as a result, which would be deemed as media coverage that would not be normal. I do not know how somebody gets into a situation——

It depends on who pushed the candidate.

That is true. The transmission on radio or television of a broadcast on behalf of a candidate or political party is also included. As we live in the 21st century, how could that ever be considered to be part of an electoral expense to be declared? It is part of the normal business we conduct.

Section 6 should be contained in a separate Bill and should not form part of this legislation. It should be dealt with at length and soon. I would be very upset if it were to transpire that on the day before the next general election, some other enterprising Fianna Fáil candidate had decided to go to the courts on some pretext in an attempt to change the law once again. When we go into the next general election, we need to know beforehand the grounds and conditions on which it will be fought. Let us have no smart-alec changes in the last few days or in the course of the election campaign.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill whose main purpose is revise the Dáil constituencies in the light of the 2002 census and to implement the recommendations contained in the constituency boundary commission's report of 2004. While it is relatively short legislation, it is very important. It will significantly enhance or damage sitting Deputies and candidates in the next general election depending on where they live. As someone who has the honour of representing the constituency of Westmeath that is to be transferred in part into two separate electoral constituencies by the constituency commission, I have probably most to fear by the Bill. I am particularly concerned about the future representation of the people of north Westmeath, whom I have had the pleasure of serving in both Houses of the Oireachtas since 1982.

When the commission was established, its job was to review the existing constituency boundaries on foot of population trends and to make recommendations for boundary changes based on the national census. It claims to have done this and while a further census of population will be taken next year, the process involved will take too long to permit a new Bill to be introduced before the next general election. I believe the new census will show that the population of Westmeath has increased substantially in recent years, and in the past three years in particular. This population growth will continue as a result of the Government's inward investment in industry and new technology and as a result of substantially improved infrastructure in the county, such as gas, broadband, roads and various other unprecedented improvements we have seen in the county.

Following the 2002 general election, I am proud to be the only Government Deputy in the county. It is a wonderful time to be in public life, assist my native county and do whatever I can for its people from Athlone to Clonmellon to the bridge of Finea and in Mullingar, Kilbeggan and Coole, areas which are experiencing unprecedented growth. I am absolutely delighted and privileged to be associated with this Government, which is making it all possible.

That should go down in the Deputy's election expenses.

Speaking as one who has risen the hard way, working for 45 years to get where I am, making a success of being a businessperson and then entering public life and being able to assist the people of my native county and, like the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, having the great honour of wearing the county jersey for a few years, I hope at the end of my five-year term as a Deputy for Westmeath, I will be able to say honestly and without any gimmicks or throwaway one-liners that I have certainly helped make a difference.

The new census will show that people have come into the county to commute to such places as Dublin and Kildare. Improvements are happening in our county. With the economy now in such a good state, buoyant and with no emigration, we can have great sporting success, something seen in our unprecedented victory in the Leinster championship last year. The Bill before the House today has raised a great many issues. At election time we all become aware that people are not on the register although they have voted for many years previously. For one reason or another, through no fault of their own, they have been left off the register. Very many young people who should be on the register are not, especially in areas of increased population where new communities are being established. Entire housing estates are not on the register as they should be.

Having knocked on doors for perhaps 45 years and served as a postman in early life, I make this proposal for the serious consideration of the Minister. It is reasonable to assume that at least 10% of the electorate is disenfranchised from one election to another because of inaccuracies in the register. I call on the Minister to employ the local postman or postwoman to assemble the initial register for each electoral area. The first person to know that one has moved into an area will be the postman or postwoman rather than the Garda Síochána, as we are led to believe. It may not be the doctor, priest or teacher, although the teacher would have a chance with a younger family. The one sure-fire person to know is the postman or postwoman. I know that, if properly remunerated, they would be the best people to assist in assembling the register at election time. I pay tribute to the postal employees in my area who voluntarily assisted us over the years in the north Westmeath and Mullingar area in particular, where I have served for many years.

I was the Leader of Seanad Éireann up to 2002, and a Bill came to the House for our approval regarding opinion polls being banned for seven days before election day. I want to see that section restored to this Bill. A seven to ten day poll ban should include election day. The difficulty with the last section was that election day was not included, as Senator Ross and I noticed at about 10.20 p.m., meaning the Bill had to be reconsidered. That very good and wise section allowed the electorate time for calm consideration of the candidates presented to it by the various parties, as well as the Independents. Why should anyone be allowed to interfere with the democratic system for which people fought? People gave their lives to allow us to exercise our franchise and vote democratically for our choice of candidate. A man or woman who may not have enormous resources should have as good a chance of getting the people's approval as others. I hope the current Minister will consider bringing back that section in the interests of democracy, as did the last Government and the previous Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey. As all the parties will agree, there should be time for calm reflection so that the electorate can consider the merits of a candidate.

I will return to the issue of redrawing constituency boundaries. It is not merely politicians who are concerned at the proposed changes. Those who live in the constituencies affected are also extremely concerned, and many of those in north Westmeath, particularly the Coole district, are very upset at the proposal. The commission's decision to transfer the Coole electoral area in north Westmeath to the new constituency of Meath West may well result in there being no resident Deputy to represent it after the next general election. It took the people of Coole in north Westmeath 37 years from 1965 to get one. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is the last Deputy in the House who served with the late M. J. Kennedy. On the day Mr. Kennedy died, 16 February 1965, Seán Lemass went to Phoenix Park and called a general election. From 1965 until my election in 2002 the Coole electorate had no representative from any party in Dáil Éireann. That is too long for such an unhelpful and unhappy situation to obtain. What is the rural community of north Westmeath to do for another 37 or 40 years? It is totally unfair that the county boundary has once again been breached, so that we have been put in with County Meath. We have no difficulty working with people there, but the issue is of having a representative at the seat of power with access to Ministers, Ministers of State, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste. That is a massive advantage for an electoral area.

I will list my achievements, humble as they are: the new stand-alone community college in Castlepollard, which has just been opened; a new, one-stop shop facility, with 14 staff from Westmeath County Council, in Castlepollard; a new fire station; and a new centre for the village of Delvin, all areas that experienced huge emigration over the years. Deputies representing or with roots in rural areas will know the importance of that. It is bad to split the county and take 30% of the terrain of north Westmeath, which has only 6,000 voters. That will give an indication of how rural an area I was born into and which I am so privileged and honoured to represent.

Oppose the Bill.

Why did the commission not consider taking a little part up at Clonee, a high-density area where 6,000 voters might mean only two or three streets, instead of affecting an entire third of a county? It baffles me that any fair-minded person aware of the geographical divide should fail to see that, if Meath needs to gain 6,000 voters, one can take some areas in Dublin that may not have increased in population rather than take one third of a county. Bad enough as that is, they have also split the parish of Castlepollard. At the next election I will not be able to vote for myself, while my brother, 400 metres up the road, will fortunately still be able to vote for me. A divided community is regrettable.

I would never have entered politics were it not for my belief in the power of the parish. This is exemplified by St. Patrick's Day in Croke Park and has informed my background in what one can do to assist one's constituents. When we are dead, it is not what one has done for counties 100 or 150 miles away from one's home that matters but what one has done for one's parish and community. I hope when that time comes for me, the local people will deem that I did my best and made a difference.

That is the reason I am here today. I did not stand for Dáil Éireann to make any material gain but because I saw part of my county, including the great town of Mullingar, not getting its fair share of investment. We did not get it because we had no representative in ministerial office. However, I thank colleagues from other counties for their efforts for the area, including the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dempsey, and Senator O'Rourke.

Deputy Cassidy is on dangerous ground.

Would the Deputy vote for Senator O'Rourke?

When the Senator was in her Ministry in Athlone, she did her best for our county.

The Senator may be listening to what Deputy Cassidy says.

The real electoral contest will be between Deputy Cassidy and Senator O'Rourke.

The most important issue for the people of County Westmeath at the next general election is that our county should elect Government Deputies.

The electorate will do so and they will be Fine Gael Deputies.

My party has been in Opposition in the past and I am aware of what we can do for the people of Westmeath when we are in Government.

The recommendations of the constituency boundary commission mean I have lost 24% of my first preference vote, or 1,907 votes. My colleague, Deputy Penrose, has lost 608 votes, Deputy Paul McGrath has lost 807 votes and Senator O'Rourke has lost 104 votes. The odds seems to be stacked against me retaining my seat. There may be an uphill battle but I place the same confidence in the people at the next general election that I did on the last occasion. They responded magnificently and it is clear they made the correct decision given the investment that has come to the county. Some of this may have been on the way but, as Napoleon once said, "Do not give me good generals, give me lucky ones". I am the lucky Deputy for the county.

I understood the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea, was the lucky general.

We should put Deputy Cassidy in a lucky bag.

If that luck is to continue, I am confident the people of the county will consider me for their first preference in the next election.

I have some advice for colleagues on the other side of the House who are, like me, first-time Deputies. As an Oireachtas Member for 23 years, I confirm the most difficult time to get elected is the second time. Opposition Members may smile and feel confident they are on their way to re-election for a second time.

We do not have to contend with Senator O'Rourke.

However, they should be wary of the underdog. I am not beaten yet and am fired up for the challenge. Anybody who hopes to take my seat will have much hard work to do between now and the next general election because I have worked hard for the last three years and will continue to do so.

Whoever takes the seat will not be whining to the media but will be working hard locally.

I might even increase my efforts. In the words of Al Jolson, "You ain't seen nothing yet".

I would vote for Deputy Cassidy after hearing him speak.

This Bill should have provided for two extra Dáil seats. The commission could have recommended either a reduction of two seats to 164 or an increase of two to 168. It is a shame it did not choose the latter approach. The people of north Westmeath and Leitrim have much in common. Neither area has got its fair share of the spoils of the Celtic tiger. However, all the hard work has been put in place to ensure this situation will be rectified. We are all here to effect change and to do our best on behalf of the people with whom we were reared.

Fairness must prevail. This is not the case in respect of north Westmeath and Leitrim where in the case of each, 30% of the electorate is being taken away from its natural terrain. However, there is no doubt the commission had a difficult job which it undertook according to what it considered the best interests of the electorate. I had the great honour of sitting beside Paudge Brennan and Séamus Mallon when I first entered the Seanad in 1982. Paudge Brennan was always good for a one-liner and he once said, "there is never the right time to do the right thing". The correct approach for the commission to take the next time it sits is to treat county boundaries as sacrosanct.

If changes must be made, it is better they take place in the large cities, including Dublin, Cork and Galway. In these areas, a Deputy will secure 6,000 votes in an area of only half a mile. In rural north Westmeath, by contrast, the population of the village of Coole was shown to have declined by 1.6% in the last census. I have been honoured to represent the people of Castlepollard, Fore, Collinstown, Ballymanus, Delvin, Clonmellon and Riverdale in Raharney. This latter village has been split by the commission. It makes no sense to divide 300 people in a rural area so that 100 are assigned to a constituency in County Meath and 200 stay in Longford-Westmeath. It is a heartless act.

I look forward to being returned as a Deputy for the people of the new constituency of Longford-Westmeath. People from Westmeath have always worked well with those of Longford. We form a natural terrain of co-operation and were part of the same area for the purpose of the former health board, for example. I will be honoured and privileged to continue to serve as a Member of Dáil Éireann with the wishes of the electorate of Longford-Westmeath. I will conclude with the words of Abraham Lincoln: "I do the very best I know how; the very best I can; and I mean to keep on doing it to the end."

One wonders whether Abraham Lincoln was also a parish man. That last contribution lacked only a lorry decked out with flags and perhaps a chapel with a congregation emerging to hear the triumphalist speech. This will not cut ice with Members on this side of the House. However, I am pleased to hear Deputy Cassidy is opposed to this legislation or the elements of it which split county boundaries. I look forward to the Deputy joining the ranks of the Opposition when it counts most, in voting against this Bill.

There is no doubt the importance of the legislation governing our electoral process cannot be overstated. When such legislation is flawed, as this Bill clearly is, it must be opposed in the strongest possible manner. This is what Sinn Féin intends to do. The legislation governing the work of the constituency commission which drew up the recommendations being implemented in this Bill was itself flawed. This should be a matter of the deepest concern to all those committed to retaining the integrity of our electoral process.

Some months ago, I put Sinn Féin's view regarding the constituency commission's recommendations on the record when I raised the matter on the Adjournment. At that time I urged the Minister to reject those recommendations and to introduce legislation to allow the formation of six-seat and seven-seat constituencies, after which the constituency commission should be reconvened. The Minister has failed to do this.

Sinn Féin made a submission to the constituency commission about constituencies for the election of Members to the Dáil. Our submission was based not only on the need to consider boundaries in the context of the 2002 census results but, more importantly, in the context of what constitutes a just representative electoral system. Our concerns centre on the increase in the number of three-seat constituencies. We must consider why these seem to be the favoured option for dealing with population growth and change. Is it because three-seat constituencies have always entirely favoured larger parties such as Fianna Fáil? Does this represent an attempt to protect the political interests of such parties?

By once again increasing the number of three-seat constituencies, this legislation further dilutes the proportionality of our electoral system. This is not in the interest of diversity nor is it in the interest of the people. For the third consecutive commission, the number of five seat constituencies has been cut while the number of three seat constituencies steadily grows. I am concerned the existence of three seat constituencies in certain areas and five seat constituencies in others creates inequality between voters in different parts of the State. Nowhere is that more clearly demonstrated than in the city of Dublin. Almost all the constituencies north of the Liffey have three seats but there are a number of five seat constituencies on the other side of the river. Could it be that the Government does not trust the bulk of the working class people on the northern side of the Liffey to do the right thing at election time? Is it the case that the people from the more leafy lanes on the southern side are prepared to elect what I heard many Ministers describe as "right thinking people"? It is grossly unfair that is the case.

The Government side referred to the independent nature of the commission. That is not good enough. The essential problem is the commission is constrained by legislation to have constituencies sized between three and five seats. Therein lies part of the problem. It is worth contrasting the seven and even nine seat constituencies, which were evident in this State when it was established in the early 1920s, with the mainly three or four seat constituencies in this so-called modern age. It is ironic that the founders of the State — of course, pre-Blueshirt time — had a greater awareness and social conscience by allowing proper representation and proportionality in this Parliament as opposed to what we have now and the current Government.

Proportional representation with a single transferable vote using multi-seat constituencies was not designed with the intention of applying it to three seat constituencies. The number of Members returned per constituency is a crucial component of the Irish electoral system. The higher the number of Members returned per constituency, the greater the proportionality of that system. My party will bring forward amendments to section 6(2)(b) of the Electoral Act 1997 to allow for the formation of six and seven seat constituencies in that larger constituency size adds the quality of extra proportionality to the electoral system as a whole. If accepted, these amendments will restore the positive attributes of the proportional representation single transferable vote system in terms of local accountable representatives and voters being able to make inter and intra party choices.

I reiterate the case alluded to by a number of speakers concerning County Leitrim. My party is opposed to the division of County Leitrim between the two proposed new constituencies of Sligo-North Leitrim and Roscommon-South Leitrim which this Bill will implement. Section 6(2)(c) of the Electoral Act 1997 states that “the breaching of county boundaries shall be avoided as far as practicable”. It is unfortunate that is being completely ignored in the case of Leitrim.

Although there was an element of partisan electioneering in Deputy Cassidy's contribution, I accept the points he made about breaching county boundaries and about areas with large population densities which would be much more able to accommodate those changes. If Deputy Cassidy is to carry that conviction through to its logical conclusion, he should oppose this Bill because it does exactly the opposite.

It has caused major concern and upset in County Leitrim. There is a genuine feeling that the splitting of the county will prevent the people of Leitrim from electing a person from that county to the Dáil, perhaps for the foreseeable future. If the amendments I propose regarding the permitted size of a constituency were accepted, the constituency commission could be reconvened to consider the possibility of establishing a six seat constituency comprising the three counties of Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon and avoid the unacceptable division of County Leitrim between the two proposed new constituencies. This legislation further damages the integrity of our electoral system and will, no doubt, contribute to the growing levels of apathy among voters in particular and the public in general.

The issue of registration was raised by the previous speaker. Rate collectors used to handle registration for the local authority. Since the abolition of rates in 1977 that whole project has been put on the backburner. It is completely haphazard at this stage. The rate collector still visits each locality, will call to a small number of houses and will take a sounding from those people on who has moved into the area, who has died, who is moving on and who should be on the register. It is generally conducted in a haphazard manner. There should be a significant registration drive to ensure all those entitled to vote are registered to do so, otherwise they simply will not count at election time. The next issue is how to manage it.

The previous speaker alluded to the possibility of using An Post for that purpose. That is a wonderful idea but I am concerned that by the time of the next election, there will be no such thing as a postman or a postwoman given this Government's current policies. If there are a few An Post employees left in rural Ireland, they will have no idea who is resident in a house because they will leave post in the green box at the end of the lane or even the end of the townland. They will not have the intimate knowledge of the rural population members of An Post currently have. That is one important element of the work An Post could carry out. Ensuring a proper registration system is put in place would be an additional service for the people and the institutions of this State. It would also require a significant change in Government policy because the thrust to gear the postal service for privatisation will not assist that institution in terms of facilitating the registration drive.

A number of speakers have spoken against the breaching of county boundaries which I fully support. However, the number of seats per constituency is even more important. Three or four seat constituencies do not facilitate proportionality as envisaged under proportional representation single transferable vote system. If that core principle of our electoral system is to be re-established, we must revert to large constituency sizes — perhaps to seven or nine seat constituencies which were in place in the early days of this State.

I am glad to speak on this Bill but I, like many others, have been badly affected by the change. Although I welcome two three seat constituencies in County Meath, I am disappointed some of the areas of north Meath, particularly my home area of Kells which I have served for almost 30 years as a county councillor, has been divided. It is unfair to the people of what is a quite rural area. My colleague and friend from County Louth sitting in the benches opposite, Deputy O'Dowd, would be familiar with much of that area which is close to Ardee and includes Drumconrath and part of the Slane area as far as Monknewtown, close to Drogheda. It is a very rural area whose inhabitants tried for years to get a real rural Deputy who could serve them. Eventually, in 1997 they got a Deputy who knew what rural life was all about and who had worked for the people of the area.

Was that Deputy McEntee?

This was my electoral area of Kells which runs from the far side of Oldcastle, past Mountnugent and up to Kingscourt on one side and back up to Ardee on the other side. As a Deputy, I was assigned that part of the Slane area with which Deputy O'Dowd would be very familiar. These areas have little in common with Ashbourne, Ratoath, Dunboyne or Dunshaughlin and it is unfortunate that the Kells area has been split up.

I remember that when I was first elected to Meath County Council in 1974, part of the Kells area was included in the constituency of Cavan and helped to elect one great man, the famous Tánaiste.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Before being interrupted by the Opposition, I was being complimentary to Deputy O'Dowd. I was surprised, but these things happen.

I wanted the Deputy to have a good audience.

In 1974, when I was elected to Meath County Council, part of the Kells area in north Meath was included in the constituency of Cavan. As I said, it helped to elect the great former Tánaiste, John Wilson, who held several ministerial posts, including education, and whose nephew is a Member of the Upper House. The other part of the Kells area was included in the constituency of Monaghan, before Monaghan and Cavan were joined together to form a single five-seat constituency. This area of north Meath, which included part of Nobber and Drumcondra and extended to Carlanstown helped the present Ceann Comhairle to be elected in the constituency of Monaghan at that time.

That area later reverted to the Meath constituency. One also had a situation whereby the Coole area of north Westmeath was included in the Meath constituency. It helped my great friend, colleague and councillor, Michael Lynch, with whom I served for 30 years, to be elected to this House a number of times. Finally, we reverted to our own five seat constituency from which I was honoured to be elected in 1997. Unfortunately, a change has come which will divide my area in two. Of the five Deputies elected in 2002, I am the only one who has been badly affected. However, although I have been, perhaps I am fortunate to be getting the area which will be lost by my great friend and colleague, Deputy Cassidy. The Coole district, including Castlepollard, Fore, Delvin, Collinstown, Clonmellon and part of Ratharney will be incorporated into the Meath West constituency.

I pay tribute to Deputy Cassidy and sympathise with him for losing the Coole electoral area of County Westmeath. As we know, Deputy Cassidy has been a very hard-working Deputy for the people of the county and constituency of Westmeath. He was the first Deputy to be elected from north Westmeath since 1965. It is sad that having been finally elected in 2002, this change affecting him comes along. It is not easy and I wish him well. I know that because of the work he has done for the people of Westmeath and will continue to do for the people of Longford-Westmeath, he will be successful in that new constituency. I hope I will be as successful with that part of County Westmeath which will come into the new Meath West constituency.

As I stated earlier, I thank the people of the old Meath constituency, particularly those from areas which I served for 30 years in the old Kells district such as Moynalty, Tierworker, Newcastle, Nobber, Drumconrath, Meathill, Ballinaclose, Kilmainhamwood and Kilbeg who have been very good to me. Those people have also been very good to me since I was elected to the Dáil in 1997. Other areas of the Navan district have also been affected. It is sad to lose these areas and the great people in the Slane area of east Meath who have been very good to me. I thank them for their support over the previous two general elections.

I am badly affected by the changes brought about by the constituency boundary commission but Deputy Cassidy and Deputy Ellis, who has seen his county of Leitrim divided in two, are in a worse situation. I know that the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, has been affected by the changes. However, we must move on and there will be plenty of challenges in the new constituencies.

Another aspect of the constituency changes with which I was disappointed was that the members of the constituency boundary commission who made these decisions, honourable and highly thought of as they may be, unfortunately probably do not know the landscape of parts of these constituencies. There is a very small Gaeltacht area in Meath that consists of Baile Ghib and Rath Cairn. It is unfortunate that these two areas have been divided under the new constituency changes. Both areas are in the Kells electoral area but Baile Ghib is now assigned to the Meath East constituency while Rath Cairn will be assigned to the Meath West constituency. My colleague, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has looked after Rath Cairn over recent years and that area will remain in our constituency for the moment.

I am very disappointed and saddened for the people of Baile Ghib because I represented that area for the last eight years and it was an area that needed considerable attention and help. Many measures are under way in Baile Ghib to promote the Irish language. I thank the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, who has been very helpful to me in my efforts to help and promote the Irish language in the Baile Ghib area. It is sad that the people in Baile Ghib must now go into a new constituency and I hope that my colleagues, including Deputy Mary Wallace, will represent Baile Ghib and help its people because it is a growing area that needs assistance. I hope that Baile Ghib's representatives will continue to fight to see that it gets the same attention as other Gaeltacht areas.

We may be disappointed and saddened by these constituency changes but we must move on. We must move into our new constituencies and help the people living in them. The situation could have been worse if the new M3 had divided our constituency. That would have finished me off for all time. Fortunately, the route that would have divided Kells from where I live was not chosen. That would have been a disaster.

Meath is a changing constituency and county. The M3 will bring enormous benefits to the county. I hope construction of the road will receive permission to proceed because the unfortunate people who travel this route every day face long commutes to Dublin. I am familiar with this. My colleague, Deputy McEntee, spoke on the radio this morning while caught in traffic about how he had never realised how long the commute could be. When I first took my seat in the Dáil in 1997, I could leave my house at 8.30 a.m. and arrive at Leinster House at 9.45 a.m. Now I must leave the house at 7.30 a.m. to arrive at Leinster House at 9.45 a.m. This is an example of the change that has taken place in Meath.

The county now faces the major change brought about by its division into two constituencies. I thank the people I represented in the old Meath constituency who will move to the new Meath East constituency for their support. I hope I will be returned to this House in the new Meath West constituency in the next general election in 2007. While I am always ready to help the people in rural north Meath, I am also willing, should I be re-elected, to use my considerable experience to assist the people of the highly populated areas of Ashbourne or Dunboyne with their problems.

I thank Deputies Cowley and Harkin for facilitating me. Many issues arise out of this Bill and I would like to address briefly the issues of the register of electors, voter turnout, polling days, electronic voting and the storage of electronic voting machines, the increase in the number of three-seat constituencies, the decrease in the number of five-seat constituencies and the diminution of proportionality that the recommendations of the constituency boundary commission will bring about.

In my experience over recent years, the register of electors has not been compiled in the fashion that it was previously. A significant number of people are not on the register and many are on the register who have either died or changed address. Since the specific duty of revenue collectors has been changed, the formulation of the register has suffered. There needs to be a specifically designated officer, whether it is a revenue collector, new officer in a local authority or someone like a postperson, with responsibility for ensuring that the register of electors is up to date. Compiling the register is not an easy job, especially in built-up urban areas where people change address frequently, there is a high proportion of rented accommodation and house sales, and new housing estates and buildings are constructed. It is a job that needs a specifically designated officer to carry it out and he or she should be paid properly to ensure the job is done properly. Many national and local public representatives are concerned by the inaccuracies in the register.

On the issue of polling day and voter turnout, we have all witnessed the decline in voter turnout in recent years, especially in European elections and referendums. The turnout recently has been considerably down on what it was a number of years ago. Part of the difficulty relates to students and employment. Everyone seems to be employed now, for example, husband and wife or both partners in a relationship, and it can be difficult to ensure that one votes on a working day. I strongly suggest that the change to Fridays has been unsuccessful, in particular for students. Serious consideration should be given to moving voting to Sundays, which would give everyone an opportunity. No one would have a reasonable excuse not to vote on a Sunday.

I have said from day one that there is no necessity for electronic voting. Even the proper use of State money concerning this issue is a waste as electronic voting is not necessary for the working of the electoral, proportional representation and democratic systems. Good use could be made of this money in other areas, including our health, educational and other services. Electronic voting should be set aside. No undue difficulty exists with the current manual system. I strongly object to the information that has come into the public domain recently whereby electoral officials, returning officers or their relatives have contracts to store electronic voting machines that have never been used and will never be used. This is a serious situation that should not be allowed to continue. Where it has happened, the Department should raise it with the individuals concerned and stop it immediately. Serious questions would be asked if a Deputy or a close relation of a Member of the House were involved in activity of this nature. This situation does not help our democratic system or make for transparency or good governance.

The Bill is fundamentally flawed due to the commission's terms of reference. My basic concern is the increase in the number of three-seat constituencies and the proposed division of County Leitrim between so-called "Sligo-North Leitrim" and "Roscommon-South Leitrim". The recommendations in the Constituency Commission's report, which would be implemented were this Bill passed, take us further down the road of diluting proportionality in the electoral system. This is not in the interests of diversity, democracy or individual electors. What is obvious from the report is that, for the third consecutive commission, we have a situation wherein the number of five-seat constituencies has been cut and the number of three-seat constituencies significantly increased. This is not good for proportional representation.

I will refer to and thank the "Save Leitrim" campaign for information on this subject, a subject that affected me in 1997. The campaign's information shows that, in general elections from 1987 on and taking the 1997 and 2002 elections as examples, a significant number of individuals, be they independents or from political parties, received in excess of 20% of the vote in three seat constituencies but were not elected. For instance, I got 21.6% of the vote in my constituency in 1997 but was not elected. Former Deputy, Mr. Paddy Harte, got 21.8% in Donegal North East. Deputy Martin Ferris in Kerry North got 20.4%. Former Deputy, Mr. Tom Berkery, got 21.6% in Tipperary North. In the 2002 election, Mr. Dessie Ellis in Dublin North West got 21.4% of the vote. Former Deputy, Mr. Dick Spring, got 23.9% in Kerry North. Former Deputy, Mr. Alan Dukes, got 23.9% in Kildare South. Senator Noel Coonan in Tipperary North got 23%.

If we had been running in any contiguous constituency of more than three seats and received similar percentages, we would have been elected on the first count because we would have won more votes than the Deputies elected therein. In all these examples, a substantial section of the electorate could feel justifiably annoyed that their chosen candidates were not elected. Understanding how the system can be fair in such circumstances is difficult. The full benefits of the PR system are not being spread fairly throughout the electorate. The situation of candidates not being elected on more than 20% of the overall vote whereas they would have been elected on the first count in four or five seat constituencies does not add up and is unfair.

The commission's terms of reference must be significantly changed. The reduction in the number of five-seat constituencies dilutes the proportionality our system has always had. The increase in the number of three-seat constituencies does not help democracy or the PR system. Six-seat constituencies should be included in the terms of reference. That they exclude anything other than three to five-seat constituencies dilutes the proportionality of our system. The number of five and six-seat constituencies should be increased to ensure proportionality and fairness are facts rather than fictions.

The breaching of county boundaries must be avoided at all costs. That a county such as Leitrim will almost certainly no longer be in a position to elect a county man or woman to Dáil Éireann is not good for democracy, Leitrim or this House. The terms of reference of the commission must be strengthened to ensure county boundaries are not be breached in this way. In my constituency the county boundary is breached but at least the other term of reference of the commission, the natural boundary, is adhered to. On the southern side of my constituency, the strip of Waterford that is in Tipperary South is contiguous to the town of Clonmel and that town is the nearest centre for shopping and work. At least in that instance the commission's approach is understandable. Splitting a county, particularly a county such as Leitrim, in two should not be accepted. I would like substantive amendments to be made to this Bill before it is passed, particularly in regard to county boundaries, the terms of reference of a future commission, electronic voting, the day of voting and the preparation of the register of electors.

I am pleased to speak on this Bill. Its provisions reflect a shift of population from rural to urban areas as a result of the new commuter culture, principally in the counties around Dublin. It is obvious any further change in the future will reflect more an urban than a rural population. That is regrettable. Successive speakers have talked about the need to retain county boundaries. The Bill proposes changes in 23 constituencies, leaves 15 unchanged and creates five new ones but replaces four existing ones.

I wish to refer to remarks made by speakers of political parties, Deputies Ring and Durkan. Deputy Durkan did not accept the contention that Independents were good for the nation. I strongly disagree with that view. We address the issues that the political parties do not address. We would not be here were it not for the fact that the political parties have ignored the real issues of concern to people, particularly those in the west and north west who have suffered in this regard.

Changes are occurring. My fear is that we are moving from rural to urban representation, of which we already have enough.

There is great disillusionment with the political parties and I do not know if the proposed changes will help in any way to dispel that. It will be more difficult for Independents and candidates of small parties to get elected. People have voted with their feet to more than double the number of Independents elected to this Dáil. That did not happen by chance but because people realised that representation by Independents was the way forward. Independents are an advocate for the people. They can best represent the issues of concern in a constituency by cutting out the middle man, as it were, and the political party agenda. It is obvious that a group of Independents on a shared policy platform can go forward in a positive way. Although Independents can still continue to pursue individual constituency issues, the public would have an organised group for whom to vote at the next general election.

There is a move towards an Independent alliance, which could well hold the balance of power in the next general election and be in a position to participate in Government on the basis of agreed policies. Nobody can doubt that Independents are here to stay. Not only that, but they will be a major force to be reckoned with in future.

Hear, hear.

Members of political parties like to say that Independents are powerless. They say that Independents are single issue candidates but that could not be further from the truth. People were extremely disappointed when Deputy Twomey defected to the Fine Gael benches.

He saw the light.

People saw the darkness because they felt they were going back into the Dark Ages——

That is what the Deputy represents.

——and, unfortunately, they saw the train coming down the track. It is obvious that people recognise that Independent Members have the capacity, which they have utilised in the past, to exert an effect on Government above and beyond their numbers. One need only recall how Deputy Gregory made a multimillion pound deal with the then Government and the influence exerted by Deputy Healy-Rae to recognise the balance of power effect of a small number of Independents. It is amazing what can be done in such circumstances. If people do not believe that, they need only look to the PDs and note their small number of members yet the effect they have above and beyond their numbers because they have incorporated their policies into the programme for Government. There is no reason Independents could not do that and they will do that. These are the issues that matter to the people. If there are Members representing the issues that matter to the people in such numbers and the electorate has that power to return sufficient Deputies to make a difference, they will make a difference.

People view Independent Deputies as very much a credible alternative who would put forward policies on issues on a common platform which they would put before the people in a general election campaign, and the people would then be in a position to return many more Independents. The numbers of Independents doubled in this Dáil and in the next Dáil, at the very least, 21 plus Independents might be elected. I do not believe Independents would be so arrogant as to state in advance they would not speak to any group who would be capable of forming a Government. That is my opinion. The name of the game is to implement the people's policies, not to advance the party agenda. It is the latter that has got in the way of solving the issues facing the people of the west, north west and so on.

I do not doubt that many members of political parties are genuine but the political party agenda and the centralising policy of the parties, get in the way. That has been the case since the formation of the State, and party agenda is more of the same.

That issue is the difference between the Independent alliance or any proposed Independent alliance and the political parties. The political parties are not people-centred or issues-centred. The Independent alliance is organised on the basis of policies. The alliance is about people, not power, and that is the difference.

One need only reflect on what happened in this Dáil and what may happen in the next Dáil. Independent Deputies represent a highly credible percentage of the total Members of Dáil Éireann. It is obvious that members of the electorate have great potential in this regard and the power is in their hands. That should never be forgotten by the political parties and their hangers-on who work out the permutations and combinations and have it all solved. The people have the power are prepared to use it and I am convinced they will use it.

There are crucial issues that unite Independents and drive them to seek election to the Dáil in the first instance. In addressing those common issues, which are very clear, Independents can go forward on a common platform.

There is a great need to protect the rural population. Remote areas, in particular, and gutted inner city areas are opposite ends of the spectrum but they are equally depopulated and neglected. All those areas deserve to have proper representation from their Deputies and not lose such representation as is currently happening.

The more representation an area has, the greater chance it has of having access to better services. I have often spoken about the vicious circle, which I have observed, of services being lost in rural areas with the continuing trend of depopulation. If one can break the vicious circle by providing the necessary services, one can make a difference. That is what Deputy Gregory did with his multimillion pound deal for Dublin inner city. He made a difference by securing the resources to put in place the necessary services to retain the population and give new life to an area. Independents have the know-how to do that, to represent people's real needs and to do something about meeting them. They can feel the pain of the people's neglect and can cry from the heart for equality and justice to halt the decline, whether it is happening in an inner city or a rural area. The only way to break the vicious circle of continuing depopulation is by the provision of adequate infrastructure. The lack of such provision has been the difficulty.

Currently we are awaiting an announcement regarding the western rail corridor, in respect of which provision is extremely important. From a value for money perspective, it makes great sense to support the west by supporting the western rail corridor, which is the largest and most important piece of infrastructure in the west. This important infrastructure is lying fallow, which needs to change. The big fear everyone has, and it is a real fear, is that the political parties will repeat the same old story. It is expected that the political parties will just throw money at the most populated part of the region and forget about the remainder of it until the year dot. That would be par for the course for the political parties but I hope I am wrong. I hope the Minister will announce funding which is front-loaded for the development of the entire western rail corridor. The Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív's, idea of a CLÁR area, which is based on the greatest areas of depopulation and deprivation, should be applied to the western rail corridor and the money invested in Mayo and Sligo. These are the areas that need to have the funding front-loaded to ensure that balanced regional development will occur.

The cost of the Luas and other developments in Dublin is significant. There is currently mention of a third terminal for Dublin Airport. When I spoke about a second terminal at Knock Airport there was a right hullabaloo about it. Why does it make sense to have 17 million people travelling to the east of the country, when less than half a million people are travelling to the west to an international airport which is a wonderful facility. It would make much more sense for people to use that airport rather than trying to pile more people into the congested Dublin area where traffic is reduced to ass and cart pace. People cannot get in or out of the city, yet there is talk of a third terminal while a second terminal at Knock will not be considered.

When I talk about a second terminal at Knock, I am referring to a proper apron where there is a rapid turnaround time to allow a number of jet aircraft to arrive on schedule at the airport. The Government has not invested money in Knock Airport. It has treated it just like another local airport and not a wonderful catalyst for the whole west and north west area. It never recognised it as the wonderful international airport which it is. Because all the funding has been invested in Cork and Dublin airports, it means that Knock Airport will not realise its full potential. If people are talking in mad terms about putting second and third terminals into Dublin, why not put that development into Knock, including the roads leading in and out of Mayo and so on? Why not put that money into the western rail corridor, which would make much more sense than further depopulating the area?

The vicious circle continues with loss of services. It can only be broken by adequate infrastructure. Whether one lives in Ballycroy, County Mayo, or Tallaght, County Dublin, the need for adequate resources and supporting services is the same. Whether one lives in Kildare or wherever, there needs to be the infrastructure to support houses. There needs to be playgrounds and adequate resources for people to live in an area.

The creation of three-seat constituencies in rural areas damages the equality of representation. This Bill will see the new configuration of constituencies in North Connaught-North Leinster area with three-seaters named Sligo-North Leitrim and Roscommon-South Leitrim as well as a four-seater in Longford-Westmeath. The division of County Leitrim into two constituencies, Sligo-North Leitrim and Roscommon-South Leitrim, will make it next to impossible for Ireland's least populated county to return a Deputy and will mean that Leitrim will not have any quality representation in the Dáil. It would be a shame if there was not representation in the Dáil of the calibre of Deputy Harkin, who did wonderful work before she was elected to the House for the development of the west, and continues to do so both at Dáil and EU level. Were it not an independent commission, people might cynically say that there is something afoot here. I was interested that Fianna Fáil members were not included in the list Deputy Healy read.

The Government should re-examine the legislation that requires each constituency to have at least three and no more than five Dáil seats. Six seats should be allowed in a constituency where county boundaries determine a natural constituency. This would give greater freedom of choice and representation in counties Tipperary, Kerry, Cork, Meath, Donegal, Sligo-Leitrim and Roscommon.

The Bill provides for two fewer five-seat constituencies than exist currently and favours establishment parties, thus preventing new voices from entering the Dáil. My colleague, Deputy McGrath, has called the loss of one of the five seats in his Dublin North Central constituency an attack on democracy, with which I agree. It would be a tragedy if the cold undemocratic hand of so-called electoral reform was to extinguish one of Dáil Éireann's brightest stars. Electoral reform is a misnomer. Electoral gerrymandering would be a more correct description of what is going on here. I wish Deputy McGrath every good luck. I hope he will be returned to the Dáil because it would be tragic if he was not.

Any loss of representation in the Dáil runs counter to democracy. The Bill provides for 18 three-seat constituencies and 12 five-seat constituencies. The move away from five-seat constituencies is regrettable and damaging because it makes it more difficult for small parties and independents to grow and gain seats.

I do not believe electronic voting should be used in the future. Many people here said they were against electronic voting from the beginning. There is a saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why should we do away with something the people enjoy? We have already lost more than €52 million of taxpayers' money on this fiasco called electronic voting, and we will lose more. All these machines are still stored away. It would be better to cut our losses and retain the system we currently have, which serves us well and fits in ideally with the blood sport which is politics in Ireland. People are trying to do away with hare coursing, with which I agree. However, I would like to see one blood sport retained, that is, the current system of voting. It is a good system which people enjoy and it should be retained.

The former Deputy, Paddy Harte, said that the Constitution states that each constituency shall have not less than three members, and the 1997 Electoral Act says not more than five members. Dáil Éireann has the power to alter that law, and rightly so. Mr. Harte said it is time to re-examine the Act and consider amending the law to allow six seats in a constituency where the county boundaries determine the natural constituency, with which I agree. A new six-seat constituency law would give greater freedom of choice and be more democratic in Tipperary, Kerry, Cork South and East, Meath, Donegal, Sligo-Leitrim and Roscommon.

I agree that people come into the Dáil to do their best but the political party agenda is getting in the way of what people wish to do. There is another way. When there are permutations and combinations by the political parties and their friends in the media and elsewhere, they should remember there is another alternative which the people recognise, namely, the independent alternative, which is a credible one.

I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak on the Bill. I give my full support to Deputy Cowley who spoke so eloquently of the need for balanced regional development, including further development at Knock Airport, front-loading funding to the western rail corridor and giving a fair share of funds to the regions. The current spending imbalance under the national development plan is a disgrace and Governments should hang their heads in shame. Balanced regional development is supposed to be a key objective of the national development plan, yet the Government has turned its back on the concept of balanced regional development simply by not giving equal expenditure to the regions.

I will deal now with the Bill. The Bill is first and foremost about democracy and ensuring that the wishes of the electorate are fairly reflected in the results of any election. We have an independent commission that must operate within its terms of reference. One of the problems here is its terms of reference. One of the stipulations is that the number of members in a constituency must be restricted to between three and five. I will return to the issue later. It certainly restricts the manoeuvring of the commission.

All politics is local and therefore the first issue on which I want to comment is the proposal by the electoral commission to split County Leitrim in two for electoral purposes. The recommendations in this regard will have very serious consequences for the county. There is considerable anger in the county at this prospect.

People in County Leitrim ask quite rightly why their county has been chosen. Is it because it is the smallest county or because its population dropped from 155,000 — this was the population some 150 years ago — to 25,000 by the time of the last census? Is it because it is believed that the people of the county do not matter? Is it believed that they do not have sufficient political clout? Is it because the county was split before? County Leitrim found itself as the only county without a Deputy resident in the county.

County Leitrim was once carved up between three constituencies for the general elections between 1969 and 1973. When it happened that there was no Deputy resident in the county, the backlash was such that action was taken to try to address the problem so it would never arise again. It was decided that the only possible solution was to protect the county boundary as an integral electoral unit. This was to ensure that every county, not just County Leitrim, would have a fair chance of electoral representation in Dáil Éireann.

Since the first independent commission was established in 1980, County Leitrim was reunited as an electoral unit. To protect the county from being carved up in the future, it was agreed that a statutory protection be imposed on it requiring that county boundaries be protected where practicable. There is no doubt but that this protection was put in place to ensure that smaller counties, particularly County Leitrim, would never be without a resident Deputy. Nevertheless, County Leitrim finds itself in this position 25 years later.

One might well ask how this could happen. One reason is that both major political parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, made submissions to the electoral commission stating the county should be split in two. Regardless of what members of these parties are now saying, their parties' recommendation was that north Leitrim should become part of a constituency with Sligo and that south Leitrim should become part of a constituency with Roscommon. I have no doubt these submissions influenced the commission, otherwise it would not have accepted them. While the commission is independent, it does take the advice of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. The advice was that the county should be split, carved up and divided. One cannot have it both ways. Those who vote for this Bill are saying to the people of County Leitrim, north and south, that they want the county to be carved up. Ultimately, the county will have to bear the consequences of our actions.

I listened to Deputy Cassidy speaking about County Westmeath and the problems faced by the people in Coole. I sympathise with them but their problem is not in the same league as that faced by the people of County Leitrim. Imagine if County Westmeath did not have a Deputy. Would it put up with it? Would counties Roscommon or Sligo put up with it? They would not, and rightly so. Neither should County Leitrim put up with it. The splitting of the county is unfair and undemocratic. It is a body blow to all those who have worked tirelessly for many years for the regeneration of the county. It is a body blow to the pride of the county. County colours, the county jersey and county loyalty mean so much to so many people. My mother, who will not thank me for saying this, was born in County Leitrim and lived in County Sligo for the past 50 years. Whenever Leitrim is playing Gaelic football, regardless of whether it is playing against Sligo, she still supports the county in which she was born. She takes pride in the gold and green of County Leitrim.

Those of us who were lucky enough to live in County Leitrim when its team reached the All-Ireland semi-final against Dublin noted the great sense of pride in the county. In population terms, it was a case of the smallest county in Ireland playing the largest. It was great to be living in the county during those summer days. While I admit that the same enthusiasm might not be generated over politics, I realise that each county wants one of its own in the Dáil. This Bill makes it likely, perhaps even very likely, that County Leitrim will find itself with no public representative in Dáil Éireann.

There are those who might say the population of County Leitrim is just not large enough and that the major increase in population is in the east of the country. The latter is true and the increase is mainly driven by the fact that we do not have the balanced regional development of which I spoke. However, this is an argument for another day. The population shift is such that we must consider constituency boundaries and make changes. However, counties should not be made to suffer.

Deputy Johnny Brady spoke about Members having difficulty holding their seats. I understand and sympathise with this view. What is really important is that voters and counties such as County Leitrim do not suffer. There are solutions to this problem, which solutions will ensure that County Leitrim and other such counties are not split in two for electoral purposes.

In 1923 there were seven seats in the constituency containing County Leitrim. This continued until 1933. The county belonged to a constituency with five seats between 1948 and 1961. Therefore, there are solutions. The soft option, the easy option, is to split the county. I call on the Government to refer the proposal back to the electoral commission so it can allow for six-seat constituencies, thereby avoiding the totally unnecessary and absolutely discriminatory splitting of County Leitrim.

Hear, hear.

Another issue of crucial importance to everybody is that of fair and proportional representation in Dáil Éireann for each citizen in each constituency. Our electoral system is based on PR. It is designed to give the most accurate representation of the wishes of the electorate, such that not only can a voter express her preference for one candidate but she can also vote for a number of candidates in her order of preference. The system allows a voter to vote against a candidate and offers him or her a real choice.

However, this is only half of the equation. The other half concerns the number of seats in a constituency. When the constituencies were being drawn up in Northern Ireland for the Assembly elections, they were all assigned six seats. This is because a six-seat constituency, using the PR system, results in the most accurate and proportional representation. It produces the fairest result, the result that best reflects the wishes of the people. If we as politicians and democrats are really serious about the wishes of the people and if we respect them, we should try to ensure that our electoral system truly reflects their wishes.

If a six-seat constituency in a PR system is best in Northern Ireland, why is it not best for those of us who live south of the Border? Are we not as deserving of the very best representation? Why are we moving in the opposite direction by increasing the number of three-seat constituencies and decreasing the number of five-seat constituencies? Why do we have no six-seat constituencies, given that the Irish Government had a major influence in ensuring the formation of six-seat constituencies in Northern Ireland?

Deputy Finian McGrath described this Bill as flawed and undemocratic and said it showed a lack of respect for citizens. I fully agree with him. Deputy Haughey criticised Deputy Finian McGrath and said we must ensure there is no imbalance in the degree of voter influence. That is right but there should be no imbalance in the degree of influence held by the large parties. The system we operate guarantees that imbalance. The increase in the number of three-seat constituencies will ensure an even greater imbalance which will favour the large parties. That is why I agree with Deputy Finian McGrath that the Bill does not respect the wishes of the citizens.

Hear, hear.

Furthermore, this Bill favours the large parties. How can we say this system is more democratic and equitable than the previous one? How can we expect voters to respect us as politicians when our system disproportionately favours the large parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael? Despite all their fine words on this Bill and the concerns of some about the splitting of the Leitrim constituency, many Deputies will vote for this Bill. In doing so they will ensure that the large parties gain and increase their number of seats relative to their percentage of the vote.

This Bill creates a win-win situation for the large parties but for the electorate, the small parties, and Independent candidates, it is a lose-lose situation. One Government Deputy after another has told us the constituency boundary commission is independent and the Bill is the fairest possible outcome, while they know that is not the case. They can smile in the knowledge that if this Bill is passed, the large parties will gain.

The facts and figures speak for themselves. In all general elections between 1987 and 2002, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, the two largest parties with 74% of the vote, won 81% of the seats in three-seat constituencies. Small parties and Independent candidates with almost 34% of the vote gained 25% of the seats in three-seat constituencies. In other words, the two largest parties got 7% more seats than votes in three-seat constituencies and Independent candidates and small parties got 9% fewer seats than votes. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael hold 81% of the seats in three-seat constituencies while in five-seat constituencies they hold 73% of the seats. Small parties and Independent candidates hold 19% of seats in three-seat constituencies while in five-seat constituencies they hold 27% of the seats. These figures reflect the results of all general elections since 1987 and show without any doubt that three-seat constituencies favour the large parties and discriminate against small parties and Independent candidates.

Since 1980 the recommendations from the constituency commission have increased the number of three-seat constituencies by five and decreased the number of five-seat constituencies by three. Since 1980 the number of three-seat constituencies has increased by almost 40% and the number of five-seat constituencies has decreased by 20%. That is a substantial shift which has happened almost by stealth, yet it profoundly affects the outcome of elections. It distorts the system so that members of the large parties gain every time a new three-seat constituency is created, and every time a five-seat constituency is changed to either a three or a four-seat constituency.

The voters in those constituencies do not have the same choice or proportionality as voters in five-seat constituencies. It is all very well for Deputies to say this Bill reflects the changing demographics of our society. It does, but the Bill must also ensure that our system is fair and that each voter has an equal opportunity to elect the candidates of his or her choice. That is not the case. This disenfranchises certain voters. The icing on the cake for the large parties is that it favours their candidates. Why should they complain?

The terms of reference of the constituency boundary commission should be changed for two reasons: to ensure the fairness and proportionality of this system and to maintain the integrity of county boundaries to ensure that counties such as Leitrim have a representative in the Dáil.

I thank Deputies from all sides of the House for their contributions to this debate. They have raised many issues across the political horizon but, as my time is limited, I will focus on some points arising from the Bill. Other matters can be discussed in more detail on Committee Stage.

Some Deputies suggested alternatives to the schemes of constituencies proposed by the commission and set out in the Bill. I cannot foresee circumstances in which we will accept amendments that will alter the scheme of constituencies recommended by the commission. I accept that the proposals made, particularly by the latter speakers, were intended to serve the general interest rather than self-interest. It is important that we maintain the tradition of implementing the recommendations of the constituency boundary commission in full. We cannot adopt an à la carte attitude to an independent commission as the last two speakers have suggested and reject the commission’s work because we do not like what it says.

Since the report of the first commission in 1977 the Oireachtas has never changed the commission's recommendations presented in the form of a Bill. To reject some of the commission's recommendations now would be to revert to the partisan position of the past when constituency revisions were perceived as being framed to secure political advantage for the Government of the day. Even minor changes to the commission's recommendations would represent the first step back to the unsatisfactory situation which applied in the past. I cannot accept the special pleading of several speakers, including the last two. The Government will not tear up the commission's work simply because it does not suit.

The Bill contains a scheme of constituencies which is the product of an agreed process, operated in accordance with the specific rules set by distinguished personnel whose integrity and independence are beyond question. Deputy Cowley directly questioned the integrity of the commission. He should perhaps take some time to examine the record of the House and review his quite disgraceful proposition that the commission has operated in a politically partisan way. Unfortunately, Deputy Harkin took up Deputy Cowley's rant. It is outrageous that two speakers in this House should traduce in that way an independent commission made up of recognised individuals who have served this House and the State well. It is a disgrace.

It is quite outrageous that the Minister would misrepresent what I said.

Absolutely.

I said their terms of reference should be changed.

That is a gross misrepresentation by the Minister.

I listened to the rants by the last two Deputies and they both traduced good people. I did not interrupt them and I would be grateful——

If the Minister wants to hear a rant, he should listen to himself. He has no right to misrepresent what I said.

——if they assigned me the same courtesy. They shredded the personalities of good people and it was a disgraceful performance.

I did not misrepresent the Minister or anyone else. I will not allow him to do it to me.

The Bill contains rules that were put before us by distinguished personnel whose independence and integrity are beyond question. It is a scandal to suggest otherwise. I welcome the acknowledgement of the integrity of the commission, which was evident in the contributions of Deputies O'Dowd, Gilmore, Curran, Cuffe and many others. I consider suggestions to the contrary to be totally unacceptable.

The Minister is afraid of the Independents.

Deputy Cowley's claim that the commission was involved in political gerrymandering — he used those words — is a disgrace. It is offensive and he should withdraw that slur on the character of good people. I am surprised that Deputy Harkin found anything to support in Deputy Cowley's statement. I recognise her as a politician who likes to deal with issues rather than personalities.

The Minister can forget about trying to divide and conquer. It will not work on this side of the House.

Deputy Cowley accused the members of the commission, who do not have a voice in this House, of political gerrymandering. I have a responsibility to protect those people and I will do so.

Having said all that, I do not see that it is our role, on this side of the House, to defend the recommendations of the commission without equivocation. Naturally, Deputies will have feelings about different constituencies and that is to be accepted. Almost every Deputy that contributed to the debate mentioned the situation in County Leitrim. I am aware of the feeling generated in the county by that issue. I am aware of the implications of this for my colleague, Deputy Ellis.

The Minister should do something about it.

Unlike Deputy Cowley, Deputy Ellis did not come into the House and traduce the character of members of the commission.

We are not casting any aspersions on the commission.

You certainly did. You got your opportunity and you used the words——

The Minister should speak through the Chair.

He used the words "political gerrymandering" to describe the work of the commission. That is a disgraceful slur on an identifiable group of individuals who served this House and this country. He should withdraw those remarks.

I am not reprimanding the commission itself.

I can see that the commission had no option but to recommend some changes in the Sligo-Leitrim constituency, as the -11.01% variance below the national average representation of its 2002 population to seats ratio is more than 3% greater than the largest variance recommended by the commission in the history of the State. In other words, this is because of the political and demographic realities to which Deputy Harkin referred. It was suggested that a solution to the problem there might be to increase the total number of seats to 168. This would have reduced the constituency's variance from its four seats to -9.94%, so that it would still have been necessary for the Commission to operate as it did. Such a measure would also have changed the variance for the other 41 existing constituencies, resulting in quite unacceptable variances across some constituencies. We have to look at the impact of that reality.

The commission brought forward its proposed solution for reasons already given. It is not proposed to depart from the package of recommendations that emerged from its deliberations. It would be wrong for us to revert to the situation where if we do not like what the commission has recommended, we do not accept it. We cannot adopt an à la carte approach and have any hope that people will take us seriously as politicians. We set up an independent commission and we gave it a task. Since it was established, the commission served us well and its reports have always been accepted by Members on all sides of the House, whether or not they were palatable. The commission has brought forward a solution and its recommendations on Leitrim are in line with constitutional requirements, particularly those relating to equality of representation. We have had constitutional cases on this issue. These cases make it very clear that there is an overriding responsibility to look at the equality of voters in Dublin, Leitrim, Donegal or wherever.

Deputy Harkin made much of the statistical attractiveness of six seaters. The best way of getting absolute representation would be to get a single constituency for the entire country. That was tried elsewhere and it had nothing to recommend it. Deputy Gilmore claimed that Dublin county boundaries do not have the same status as other county boundaries in the commission's statutory terms of reference. He is correct, as the new constituency boundaries are not dealt with in the same way as the traditional county boundaries. The Deputy wants the commission's terms of reference to require it to avoid breaching Dublin county boundaries in formulating Dáil constituencies. The boundaries of the 32 counties of Ireland have been a historic reality since 1604, when the last county boundary was formed. In the past 200 years, the counties have been a well established focus for community activity and I accept the point that was made about local loyalties. On the other hand, the administrative counties of Fingal, South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire have been in existence for just ten years. While they are forging ahead in serving their communities, they do not yet have the distinct identity of the longer established counties. As the individual identities of these new counties develop over time, we could possibly revisit the issue but we cannot adjust the commission's terms of reference for the moment.

Deputy Finian McGrath referred to the constituency of Dublin North. Of the 42 existing constituencies, only three lost population between 1996 and 2002. These were Dublin North-East, Dublin North-West and the Deputy's constituency of Dublin North-Central. Taking these three adjoining constituencies together, the variance from the national average representation of their ten seats is equal to -9.41%. This requires significant changes to be made in existing constituency formation. Removing a seat from the area would have given an acceptable variation of 0.65% of the remaining nine seats. As Dublin North-East and Dublin-North West are already three seaters, neither could shed a seat, so any reduction had to come from the four seat constituency in Dublin North-Central. That does not suit some people, but that is the reality.

That is a disgrace.

It is not a disgrace.

It is undemocratic.

It is a statistical reality. Just because it does not suit the Deputy does not make it undemocratic. The Deputy is being undemocratic.

He ripped off 10,000 voters.

Seats follow population trends and that is a requirement of our Constitution. Voters in all parts of the country should be treated equally. The commission dealt with the only constituencies in the country to lose population by recommending the removal of a seat from one and a boundary adjustment with the other two to make all three viable. Action had to be taken and that is what the commission recommended.

Many Deputies mentioned the increase in the number of three-seaters. It has been argued that the creation of two additional three-seaters runs counter to the principle of proportional representation. I do not accept that. Three-seaters have been around for a long time.

The Minister wants more of them.

Our Constitution clearly envisages——

How come all the three seaters are north of the River Liffey?

——that three-seat constituencies comply with the principle of proportional representation. Subsection 5 of Article 16.2 provides that members shall be elected in the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote. This is followed by the provision that no law shall be enacted whereby the members to be returned in a constituency shall be less than three. Therefore, Bunreacht na hÉireann clearly envisages three-seat constituencies. While I accept that proportionality of proportional representation-single transferable vote in individual constituencies falls as the number of seats is reduced, it should be borne in mind that the number of three-seats proposed in the report, 18, has been exceeded——

South siders have five seats.

——in four constituency revisions in the past. I shall restate that because there has been an attempt to filibuster me and shout me down. On four separate occasions in the past there have been more three-seaters than under this report. I am sorry, it is virtually impossible to hear myself.

May we have ciúnas in the Visitors Gallery, please?

The PR-STV system has never claimed to achieve perfectly proportional results. Several proportional representation systems are more proportional, others much less so. For PR-STV to be perfectly proportional, the State would need to form a single constituency. Everybody recognises that this is not a practical suggestion. Constituency size in Ireland has been restricted to three, four and five seats since 1947. It would be too rigid to restrict the commission to one or two constituency sizes. We need some choice of constituency sizes to produce electoral areas that make sense to the people, such as, for example, enclosing entire communities or adhering to previous physical features. It is better to leave it to the commission to decide on the numbers of the different seat constituencies and where they should be located.

Who gave the commission its terms of reference? It was the Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, the €60 million man.

I will make the point again. Simply because this does not suit one single Deputy, the practice that has been accepted for years should not be stood on its head.

We are talking about citizens.

I am delighted the Deputy is now interested in the people because when they referred to the peace process in the referendum a few years ago, the Deputy was not exactly lining up to go ahead with them.

The Minister is wide of the mark and is obviously desperate. He is really clutching at straws. We have him on the ropes. That is nonsense.

Deputies raised issues surrounding section 6

The Minister should remember Kildare North.

Deputy O'Dowd referred to the position of MEPs elected in June. I have noted his points and will come back to what he said but I do not share the views he put forward. The Standards in Public Office Commission, the body charged by the Oireachtas with administering and implementing the regulations, has brought to attention an anomaly which is being corrected.

I stress again the Government's view that the constituency commission's recommendations are a package. They must be accepted or rejected in their entirety. If we are to be serious about politics, we cannot adopt an à la carte approach. The Government has decided, as previous Governments have decided, to follow the established practice of implementing in full the recommendations of an independent commission. I thank Deputies for their contributions and look forward to further debate on Committee Stage.

The Minister should resign.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 63; Níl, 14.

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Andrews, Barry.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Callanan, Joe.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Carty, John.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Curran, John.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Dempsey, Tony.
  • Devins, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Ellis, John.
  • English, Damien.
  • Enright, Olwyn.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hoctor, Máire.
  • Hogan, Phil.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Mulcahy, Michael.
  • Murphy, Gerard.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O’Donnell, Liz.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Keeffe, Batt.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Malley, Tim.
  • O’Shea, Brian.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Penrose, Willie.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • Upton, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael.

Níl

  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Connolly, Paudge.
  • Cowley, Jerry.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Cuffe, Ciarán.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harkin, Marian.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • Morgan, Arthur.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • Ryan, Eamon.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Tony Dempsey; Níl, Deputies Ó Snodaigh and Finian McGrath.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn