Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Dec 2005

Vol. 612 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 15a, motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the despatch of a contingent of the Permanent Defence Force for service with the United Nations Mission in Liberia, UNMIL; No. 15b, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a Council decision on the establishment of a mutual information procedure concerning members states’ measures in the area of asylum and immigration; and No. 22a, Financial Resolutions by the Minister for Finance [2005] — motion 5 (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 7.30 p.m.; Nos. 15a and 15b shall be decided without debate; and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the resumed debate on No. 22a: the speech of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons or a member nominated in his or her stead, for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 40 minutes in each case; the spokespersons for the Technical Group shall be confined to a spokesperson for the Green Party, Sinn Féin and the Independents; and the speech of each other Member called upon, who may share their time, shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case.

Mr. Kenny

I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business and give the Taoiseach the following option. Either we set time aside between 12 p.m. and 1.30 p.m. or from 7.30 to 9 p.m. for an explanation the Dáil should have in respect of the announced resignation of the former Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Ivor Callely.

Mr. Rabbitte

I agree with Deputy Kenny and it is important the House has the opportunity to hear a statement from the resigned Minister of State and an opportunity to discuss some of the issues. It has been claimed by the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Tom Parlon, that the resignation of the Minister of State at the Department of Transport is the result of a political conspiracy. If this is so, does the Taoiseach accept the political conspiracy did not come from this side of the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate that now as we are dealing with Deputy Kenny's amendment.

Mr. Rabbitte

We will not debate it now but I am adding my voice to the request. We should certainly have an opportunity to debate the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

An amendment that would introduce a new matter is not in order as it is the Taoiseach's prerogative to list the business to be taken. On the question of the proposal that there be a late sitting——

Mr. Sargent

The Ceann Comhairle has not asked for my views on the matter.

Mr. Kenny

The Ceann Comhairle knows from his experience that on many occasions in the past, the Order of Business in the House has been amended, with the acceptance of the Taoiseach, either for an extension of time or for a change of business and such an amendment will be facilitated now by Members on this side of the House. It is in the public interest that this should happen and I am quite sure the Taoiseach will accommodate us.

Mr. McCormack

Deputy Callely is probably very anxious to speak on the matter.

Mr. Sargent

On the matter of the late sitting, Ceann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no need. We have heard the proposal and we will hear from the Taoiseach now.

Mr. Sargent

The Ceann Comhairle has not heard from me at all.

Mr. McCormack

Deputy Callely is very anxious to talk.

Mr. Sargent

It is in order that I respond to the Ceann Comhairle's question regarding opposition to the late sitting. The late sitting will not give us the opportunity to deal with the business in hand. The Taoiseach has brought the business into the House himself and I understand why. However, it is valid that we would hear, not just from the former Minister of State, Deputy Callely, but also from the Taoiseach as to whether this signifies a reassurance that there is no other issue concerning a situation where a construction interest would have offered to carry out work — a reassurance, that, for example, no construction company offered to do work on St. Luke's in Drumcondra.

Mr. O’Donoghue

That is dirty.

The Taoiseach

Now we know why people think sometimes there are political acts where——

Mr. Sargent

I am simply seeking assurances.

The Taoiseach

We know the kind of assurances Deputy Sargent would want. We are debating the budget today.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with the late sitting be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 53.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Browne, John.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Collins, Michael.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cregan, John.
• Curran, John.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hanafin, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Healy-Rae, Jackie.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donoghue, John.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Peter.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Wright, G.V.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Breen, James.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Costello, Joe.
• Cowley, Jerry.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Enright, Olwyn.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gormley, John.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McManus, Liz.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Gerard.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Perry, John.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Upton, Mary.
• Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Curran; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. 2 is the proposal for dealing with No. 15a and No. 15b, motions to be referred to select committee and joint committee.

Mr. Sargent

I discussed 15b with my party’s justice spokesperson. As there has been no notification to date we are being asked to deal with it blind. Can we be provided with a detail of the motion before we decide what to do with it?

The Taoiseach

We are asking to refer it to committee. The proposal covered by Title IV of the Amsterdam treaty requires approval from both Houses of the Oireachtas for the State to become involved in its adoption and application. We can make available the notes we have but it will be debated and discussed at the committee.

Mr. Sargent

Is that all there is? It is not published.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 22a, Financial Resolutions, agreed to? Agreed.

Mr. Kenny

Following the Taoiseach's announcement this morning to the House we are now in a state of confusion. I accept this is a traumatic day for Deputy Callely and for his family but the House needs to know whether the Minister resigned or the Cabinet removed him.

An Ceann Comhairle

Today's business has already been decided by a vote.

Mr. Kenny

I appreciate that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is well aware that debates must take place in a structured manner by way of substantive motion.

Mr. Kenny

I have asked for a structured, substantive debate but have been refused. I will make another point. The Taoiseach yesterday spoke about probity and high standards.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

Of course it does.

Mr. Kenny

It does and I will say why.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy wants to debate the matter he should put down a substantive motion.

Mr. Kenny

Allegations are being made that the former Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Callely, had informed his senior Minister of the controversy surrounding the illegality of charges in long-stay institutions.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this stage. The Deputy will have to find another way to raise it.

Mr. Kenny

This is a matter of public concern, and the House should have an explanation from the Government and the previous Minister of State so that everybody would know where they stood.

Mr. Connaughton

Hear, hear. What is this place for?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is out of order. If the Deputy wishes to have a debate on the matter it can only be done by substantive motion. That is a long-standing rule of the House.

Mr. Rabbitte

The then Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Callely, took the rap for the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, on the nursing home charges.

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with all precedents there cannot be a debate. The Chair has ruled.

Mr. Rabbitte

The public will be immensely confused that a Minister of State can resign and the Ceann Comhairle, uniquely among parliaments, will not permit an opportunity to debate the matter in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a matter for the Chair but for the Standing Orders of the House. The Chair has pointed out twice this morning already——

Mr. Rabbitte

The implications for former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, are clear. We deserve an opportunity to debate it.

An Ceann Comhairle

——that under Standing Orders issues arising from the announcement can only be debated when there is a substantive motion before the House.

Mr. Gilmore

We are entitled to hear it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is the Standing Order. If Deputies are not happy with it, they should change it. It can be raised by a substantive motion and I suggest, as I suggested to Deputy Kenny, he should do that if that is what he wants.

Ms Burton

The public want to know.

Mr. Rabbitte

It appears the issues arising from this can be debated everywhere except in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

It can be debated in this House but only under Standing Orders. There is any amount of opportunities for the Deputy to raise it.

Mr. Rabbitte

When Deputy Callely was Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, he took the rap for the former Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. He told the Taoiseach that the Minister knew all about the nursing homes issue and had read the documents. The Minister of State took the rap. He has now been sacked and the Ceann Comhairle will not permit a debate in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Standing Orders brought in by the House do not permit a debate at this point. As the Chair has pointed out there are opportunities to debate the issue in a structured way.

Mr. S. Ryan

After Christmas.

An Ceann Comhairle

I appeal to Members to accept the Standing Orders for which they themselves are responsible.

Mr. Connaughton

So 4 million people can discuss it but we cannot.

Mr. Sargent

I hear what the Ceann Comhairle says. He probably refers to the Adjournment Debate but that is not practical.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. I refer to substantive motions. Has the Deputy a point appropriate to the Order of Business?

Mr. Sargent

What does the Ceann Comhairle mean by "a proper way"? There is no proper way within the time and Standing Orders at our disposal.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair does not want to be repetitive but, for the fourth time, I will point out that under Standing Orders, issues arising from the announcement can only be debated when there is a substantive motion before the House.

Mr. Sargent

That will happen in due course but it will be very much after the event.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Mr. Sargent

I am not finished. We are dealing with the Order of Business.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should raise an issue appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

Will we have an opportunity to discuss this, even by way of promised legislation? The building control Bill and other legislation could offer lessons to the Government. Must we wait for that legislation for the Government to learn those lessons?

The Taoiseach

The building control Bill will be taken early in the next session.

Mr. Sargent

That is too late. We must hear before then.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

After a budget that has done nothing for the health services, will there be a Supplementary Estimate to provide the 3,000 beds required in our hospitals and to address the 300 people on trolleys and chairs last evening in accident and emergency wards?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have an opportunity to debate the budget until 7.30 p.m. this evening.

Mr. C. Lenihan

Chuck Feeney does not sponsor Sinn Féin anymore.

Ms McManus

A total of €400 million has been allocated to pay in part for money owed to elderly people in nursing homes who had money taken from them. A senior civil servant lost his position, was dumped on and a report was presented to us in this House which did not deal with the central issue of ministerial responsibility.

An Ceann Comhairle

To what legislation does this refer?

Ms McManus

How can we not debate a matter of such importance and hear from the ex-Minister of State to ensure that we finally reach the truth on ministerial responsibility on such an important issue that is costing the taxpayer hundreds of millions of euro?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. Does she have a question on legislation?

Ms McManus

Can we make time for a debate? As Opposition spokesperson on health, I am asking for a debate on an issue of major public concern so that we can re-open the issue of ministerial responsibility and finally get to the truth.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have time to debate the budget today and must find another way to raise the issue.

Mr. Stagg

It is in order for a Deputy to ask the Government to make time for a debate on the Order of Business. It is not up the Ceann Comhairle to make a decision, it is up to the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

I appreciate that.

Mr. Stagg

It is not up to the Ceann Comhairle to make the decision, is up to the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has made no decision.

Mr. Stagg

It is not the Chair's business.

An Ceann Comhairle

I learned a valuable lesson from Deputy Stagg early on when I suggested that the Whips might have a discussion and he said it was not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. Stagg

If we have the imprimatur of the Taoiseach, we will do that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach is only responsible on the Order of Business for debates that are promised. If people asked for a debate on every single issue, Government and Opposition backbenchers would do the same as me.

Mr. Stagg

The Chair cannot stop us from asking, we are entitled to ask. The Ceann Comhairle is making a new rule.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows the rules.

Mr. Stagg

The Chair does not seem to know them.

Mr. Durkan

Arising from the Ceann Comhairle's decision, will he accommodate a motion if one is put forward for debate today?

An Ceann Comhairle

It would be a matter for the Government. The Opposition can use Private Members' time if it wants.

Mr. Durkan

I thank the Chair. When will the Minister be able to report to the House on the Corrib gas project? Perhaps he could use the natural gas regulation Bill to ensure all outstanding matters are discussed publicly and brought to a satisfactory conclusion.

The Taoiseach

The legislation is due next year.

Mr. Durkan

Mañana.

Mr. S. Ryan

What are the implications for the roads (miscellaneous provisions) Bill following the resignation of the Minister of State at the Department of Transport and the fact that the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, indicated there was a political dimension to the resignation?

Mr. Crawford

Deputy Parlon was looking after himself.

Mr. S. Ryan

This resignation must be debated in the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should allow the Taoiseach to answer his question on when the Bill will come before the House.

Mr. S. Ryan

Who will look after traffic flow in Dublin now?

The Taoiseach

The legislation is due next year.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Mr. Parlon)

On matters raised earlier by Deputy Rabbitte and just now by Deputy Seán Ryan——

Mr. Ring

We want to hear Tom.

Mr. Connaughton

He will tell us about decentralisation.

Mr. Parlon

——I fully accept the explanation given by Mr. Charlie Bird about the timing of his story about Deputy Callely.

Mr. Rabbitte

Is this statement being texted?

Mr. Parlon

In my interview last night on "Prime Time", which was supposed to be about the best budget any Government has ever introduced, I never used the word "conspiracy".

Mr. Ring

The Deputy will want an opinion poll after this.

Mr. Rabbitte

Under what Standing Order may a Minister of State intrude in this debate without interference when Members of this House have been seeking a debate on the resignation of the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister of State gave notice that he wished to make a point of personal explanation when it was appropriate.

Mr. Rabbitte

Deputy Callely should make a statement of personal explanation.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise.

Mr. Rabbitte

It does arise.

Mr. Stagg

The Chair is a disgrace.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for Deputy Callely if he wants to make a personal statement.

Mr. Stagg

A disgrace.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Ceann Comhairle said that if the Government assented to it, the Whips could meet to arrange time to debate this issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, I said in reply to Deputy McManus on a health matter that any debate, as Deputy Stagg pointed out to me, is not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. Rabbitte

We will discuss the health matter when Deputy Callely tells the truth about the implication of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, in the nursing homes issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

The issue does not arise and the Deputy knows he is being disorderly. We will move on to No. 15a——

Mr. Rabbitte

We will discuss the Minister, Deputy Martin next week. This week we are discussing Deputy Callely.

An Ceann Comhairle

——motion re referral to select committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the despatch of a contingent of Permanent Defence Forces.

Mr. Rabbitte

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter has already been dealt with. The House voted and decided this morning that there would not be a debate on it so there cannot be a debate on it now.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Taoiseach provide Government time for us to discuss the resignation of the Minister of State at the Department of Transport?

An Ceann Comhairle

The House has decided the matter by vote this morning.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am asking the Taoiseach.

Mr. English

We are asking the Taoiseach.

Mr. Quinn

If this House is to be relevant, we must be able to discuss, in a proper and orderly fashion, what is being discussed throughout the country.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The budget is being discussed throughout the country.

Mr. Quinn

A Minister of State has been sacked, forced to resign.

Mr. D. Ahern

Here comes Ruairí looking for a head.

Mr. Quinn

Under the rules of this House it is reasonable to request the Taoiseach to allow the Whips to meet later to arrange an hour's discussion of the issue today, not when it is history. Let us remain relevant in this House. Every Government Deputy knows people are talking about this everywhere else.

Mr. C. Lenihan

Mr. Angry from Sandymount.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach has sacked a Minister for State and he is entitled to be heard. We should have an hour's discussion later today by agreement with the Whips, otherwise the Chair is smothering democracy and displaying contempt for the House.

Mr. Connaughton

Maybe he is looking for a car.

Mr. D. Ahern

We will take no lectures from Deputy Quinn about democracy.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Kenny speak without interruption.

Mr. Kenny

It is important to note that this is a matter for concern. When the Taoiseach contributed in the House on 3 December 1996 regarding the resignation of former Minister, Deputy Lowry, he said:

A Minister's obligations do not cease just because he has resigned. Resignation is not an excuse for going to ground and hoping that the public lose interest. That would be a travesty of accountability. The public are entitled to know the full reasons for his resignation, and why the facts of the case were incompatible with his remaining in office ... Deputy Lowry has a duty to satisfy Dáil Éireann, the supreme authority in the land and the one to which he remains answerable.

The case made by Deputies must be answered and we need an explanation in the public interest about whether the Minister of State resigned or was sacked, whether there was a conspiracy or whether the Minister for State, in his previous capacity, briefed the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, on the issue of long-stay charges in public institutions.

Mr. Connaughton

Right now.

Mr. D. Ahern

There is always a debate at Cabinet.

Mr. C. Lenihan

There is some difference between £1,500 and £200,000.

Mr. Connaughton

Now is the Taoiseach's chance.

The Taoiseach

It is an absolute disgrace that we cannot get on and debate the budget.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a matter for Deputy Callely if he wishes to make a personal statement.

Mr. Ring

The Minister for Defence will tell us all about it in the Sunday Independent.

Mr. O’Dea

I might mention the Deputy. He turned up one day in the ratings.

Mr. D. Ahern

We thought Deputy Ring had gone to Labour.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call No. 15a. Deputy Rabbitte should resume his seat.

Mr. Rabbitte

On a point of order, the question put to the Taoiseach was whether he will, in Government time, permit the reasons for the resignation of the Minister of State at the Department of Transport to be debated. The House is entitled to this. It is being debated everywhere except in the House. Serious issues arise and the Taoiseach has the freedom to give Government time to permit adequate discussion about them.

An Ceann Comhairle

That issue has been dealt with and the Taoiseach has responded.

The Taoiseach

On a point of order, I was asked that question 35 minutes ago and I said "No". The answer is "No".

Mr. Rabbitte

Why?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this. I call No. 15a.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Ceann Comhairle cannot railroad us.

Mr. S. Ryan

What has the Taoiseach got to hide?

Mr. D. Ahern

Nothing. The Opposition is trying to hide the budget.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Minister went up every tree in north Dublin and could not find Ray Burke.

Mr. D. Ahern

I was looking for some of the Deputy's colleagues.