Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 Dec 2005

Vol. 612 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 11, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services, Votes 6, 13, 20, 26, 27, 30 and 35, which are back from committee; No. a19, statement by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in regard to information now in the public domain reflecting on the probity and past conduct and fitness to hold office of the chief executive of the Centre for Public Inquiry; and No. 3, the Social Welfare Bill 2005 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; No. 11 shall be decided without debate and that Supplementary Estimates for Public Services Votes shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith; the proceedings on No. a19 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 45 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply. Subject to Members sharing time, the statements shall be confined to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, and which shall not exceed five minutes in each case. Members may share time. Immediately following the opening statements, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes.

Private Members' business shall be No. 30 — Coroners (Amendment) Bill 2005, Second Stage, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. tonight and the following arrangements shall apply. Subject to members sharing time, the speeches shall be confined to the following members who shall be called upon in the following sequence and which shall not indicate the times indicated in each case: Labour, 20 minutes; the Government 30 minutes; Fine Gael, 15 minutes; Technical Group, 15 minutes; and the Labour Party, ten minutes. Members may share time. There shall be no Private Members' business tomorrow night and in the event of the Coroners (Amendment) Bill 2005 passing Second Stage, it shall be referred to a committee of the whole Dáil and the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages thereon shall take place tomorrow at 7 p.m. and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m. on that night by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, with regard to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

An Ceann Comhairle

Four proposals are to be put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting of the House agreed?

Mr. Kenny

The House will have lost 45 minutes on the Social Welfare Bill 2005 because of the special debate organised by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I propose the House compensate for this time by sitting later than 10.30 p.m.

The Taoiseach

The Government will agree to sitting until 11 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal to sit until 11 p.m. agreed? Agreed.

Is the proposal to deal with item No. 11, Supplementary Estimates for Public Services, agreed? Agreed.

Is the proposal to deal with No. a19, statements by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, agreed to?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No. a19 is a statement by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in regard to information now in the public domain reflecting on the probity and past conduct and fitness to hold office of the chief executive of the Centre for Public Inquiry. What has this House become? This is not a court of law to determine whether the chief executive of the Centre for Public Inquiry can hold office. This is not public office or somebody in the employ of the State. This is a man whose job, and the jobs of others, have been put in severe jeopardy by the outrageous remarks and abuse of position by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell.

We certainly need questions, answers, statements and a debate, but not on Frank Connolly.

Mr. Morgan

Hear, hear.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It should concern the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform himself.

Mr. Morgan

Exactly.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It should concern his integrity and whether he should hold office——

Mr. N. Dempsey

Are we having the debate now or should we wait until later?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin will have an opportunity during the debate to make his point.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——given what he has admitted to having done.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate this matter now, as we are debating the manner in which the item will be taken.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I am not debating this matter. I am making a clear point on why I object to the matter being taken now.

Cecilia Keaveney

This is a Second Stage debate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I do not know of any precedent for this. If we are setting a precedent here, any time this or any other Minister decides to issue surreptitiously information about a citizen or make remarks under parliamentary privilege in reply to a parliamentary question or any other mechanism, are we then to find that the citizen will again find themselves being put before the public spotlight without any right to defence?

Cecilia Keaveney

The speech has moved on to Third Stage.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy is being his usual succinct self.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I am trying to be brief but I am not the author of this situation. It is serious and demands the requisite consideration of the Taoiseach and his colleagues.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We are setting a very serious precedent if we allow this to proceed in the manner the Taoiseach has proposed. This proposal is a mistake and I strongly oppose it. We need to address the suitability of Deputy McDowell to be a Minister.

Mr. Sargent

Unlike the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform I have confidence in the judicial process. Is it not more correct for the wording under No. a19 to refer to the Minister’s suitability to hold office, rather than to any member of the public who has not been charged or brought to court, and is entitled to the presumption of innocence until proved otherwise?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Sargent

If this topic is to be debated in the way the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform wishes, it will rub salt in the wounds of an injustice he has perpetrated.

Will the Ceann Comhairle reflect on this and allow the Government to amend the wording and focus on the reason for this debate, namely, to allow the Minister explain himself, not anybody else, and not to accuse or charge anybody else without due process? This statement is turning into an accusation, which makes a bad situation worse.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Ceann Comhairle should allow the Taoiseach to reply.

Mr. Boyle

If the Taoiseach will not reply, the Ceann Comhairle should let the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform reply.

Mr. Morgan

The Ceann Comhairle should give the Taoiseach a chance to reply.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach is hiding behind the Ceann Comhairle's gown.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No.a19 be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 14.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Collins, Michael.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hanafin, Mary.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donoghue, John.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Peter.
• Roche, Dick.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wright, G.V.

Níl

• Boyle, Dan.
• Cowley, Jerry.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• McGrath, Finian.
• Morgan, Arthur.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Sargent, Trevor.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Boyle and Ó Snodaigh.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is No. 4——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

On a point of order, will the Ceann Comhairle inform the House on the salient rulings of the Chair?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. If the Deputy has difficulties with it, he can come to my office where I would be delighted to discuss it with him.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No, I wish to raise the ruling where the Ceann Comhairle has ruled in the past, along with his predecessors. I am asking for his direction on the salient rulings of the Chair as presented on 15 December 2000.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business agreed to?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It states very clearly the rulings of the House. I ask the Ceann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. He cannot walk into the House just to discuss Standing Orders.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I am asking the Ceann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for Private Members' business agreed to?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The issue of referring to someone outside the House has been addressed in the past. It states references to other persons outside the House, public officials, etc.——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I do not mean to be out of order. I am asking——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. The Chair has ruled on the matter and will communicate with the Deputy. We are not debating Standing Orders in the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

That will be after the event.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Ó Caoláin to resume his seat or the Chair will take appropriate action.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I must protest.

Mr. D. Ahern

Can we get on with the business of the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy. He cannot come into the House to start debates on Standing Orders in the middle of putting a proposal to the House. The Deputy will resume his seat.

Mr. D. Ahern

It is far from Standing Orders the Deputy was raised.

Mr. Morgan

What about the salient rulings?

Mr. D. Ahern

It is nice to see the Deputies raising salient rulings.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business agreed to? Agreed.

Mr. Kenny

We are in the last days of session as Christmas approaches. Last night, just after 11 p.m., I passed by the front gate of Leinster House where Marie Therese O'Loughlin was lying in the freezing fog. Apparently, there is no room at the inn. I understand the State provided the building in which the Morning Star hostel was——

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter has been raised by Deputy O'Sullivan on the Adjournment and has been allowed. We cannot anticipate the Adjournment debate.

Mr. Kenny

Given the time of year and the circumstances involved, there must be some way to investigate this so that it might be concluded.

I understand serious concerns have been expressed about the imprisonment of a young Tipperary man in England, Christy McGrath, on a murder charge. Little can be done now about this, but it is an issue of which the Taoiseach might take note. I met members of his family and a support group who are anxious that it is taken up with the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body and the British Prime Minister.

Tá a fhios ag an Taoiseach go mbeidh stádas na Gaeilge ag tosnú go hoifigiúil ar 1 Eanáir an bhliain seo chugainn. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil easpa aistritheoirí ón tír seo sa mBruiséil. Cé mhéad aistritheoirí a bheas á gcur ann ag an Rialtas sa dtreo is go mbeidh an stádas curtha i gcrích i gceart?

The Taoiseach

We intend to get it running but there is a question of getting sufficient staff numbers to be able to operate the system. Certain standards must be complied with, not only with Irish but staff having another continental language. We are still doing everything we can to ensure it starts.

Mr. Rabbitte

If a doubt now exists whether the Morning Star hostel was subject to State inspection, surely there must be some way for the Government to intervene——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, has raised the matter on the Adjournment and it has been allowed. It is unreasonable to anticipate the Adjournment debate.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am grateful to the Ceann Comhairle. There must, however, be some way to end the punishment being inflicted on the woman outside the gates of Leinster House at this time of year.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise. As the Deputy knows, he had an opportunity to raise this matter on Leaders' Questions.

Mr. Rabbitte

Does the Government intend to proceed with legislation to establish a statutory press council?

The Taoiseach

It will be introduced early in the new year.

Mr. Sargent

Given that my matter was not accepted under Standing Order 31, will a review of emergency procedures in the event of a disaster such as that at Hemel Hempsted be part of the promised national oil reserves agency Bill? I seek some amnesty and clemency for the lady protesting outside the gates of Leinster House given the suffering she has experienced.

The Green Party will write to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges submitting a complaint regarding the decision by the House to vote to collude with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in defamation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House has decided by a majority of 71 to 14 to proceed with the debate. Deputies must accept the democratic decision of the House.

Mr. Sargent

While I am aware of that, my party will write to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. Morgan

The Minister attacked a person outside the House who is not able to defend himself.

Mr. D. Ahern

Sinn Féin Deputies are great defenders.

Mr. Morgan

The Minister's actions are not on.

Mr. Quinn

In view of the fact that the services directive proposed by the European Commission has gone through a committee of the European Parliament and is likely to be voted on in plenary session in February next year and in view of the amendments to the directive and its significance for many Irish workers, is it possible for a debate to be arranged in Government time when the House resumes in January to discuss this matter and have the position of the Government known before the vote is taken in the Parliament?

The Taoiseach

I will examine the matter.

Mr. Naughten

When will the Adoptive Leave Bill and Parental Leave (Amendment) Bill, which have been before the House for the past two years, be enacted? When will we see the legislation to implement the additional maternity leave announced in the budget last week? Will the Taoiseach facilitate the introduction of such legislation at an early date in order that parents who have children prior to 1 March can avail of the measure?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have an opportunity to debate the issue later on the Social Welfare Bill.

Mr. Naughten

The measure is not part of the Social Welfare Bill.

The Taoiseach

Both Bills are well advanced and we would like both of them passed.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

With regard to Marie Therese O'Loughlin, I join the——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy O'Sullivan has raised the matter on the Adjournment. In fairness to the Deputy who raised it, we cannot have a debate on the issue now.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I know the Ceann Comhairle has so ruled but I will say it, as everybody else has done, because I know he treats us all exactly the same. Will the Taoiseach be good enough to reply to the correspondence I issued to him making an appeal on behalf of the lady in question?

Given that the Dáil has taken the decision to endorse the position of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on his despicable action towards a person outside the House and in contravention——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——of all precedents of the House, when does the Taoiseach expect to bring the defamation Bill before the Chamber?

The Taoiseach

Early next year.

Mr. Crawford

The enforcement of fines Bill was promised a long time ago and still nothing has been done about it. When will the legislation be brought before the House?

In light of the ongoing extraordinarily serious problems in the area of health in the Cavan-Monaghan area, will the——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question on legislation?

Mr. Crawford

Yes, I am coming to it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to come to it because I will move on quickly.

Mr. Crawford

If the health Bill were before the House, Deputies would at least have another opportunity to discuss the issue.

The Taoiseach

The fines Bill will be taken next year. The heads of the health Bill are expected and the legislation will be published after Christmas.

Mr. Stagg

I asked the Taoiseach previously to keep an eye on the broadcasting Bill to ensure it is introduced by the Minister as quickly as possible. When can we expect the Bill? I hope it will be before the House in February.

The Taoiseach

It will be taken in the new year.

Mr. J. Higgins

Regarding the Tánaiste's most recent manifestation as a female variety of Scrooge when she called for workers protesting last Friday to be docked their wages, does the Government agree with her position and did she dock her salary when she took time off to open an off-licence down the country last year?

An Ceann Comhairle

We will move on to No. 11.