Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 28 Mar 2006

Vol. 617 No. 1

Criminal Justice Bill 2004: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on Tuesday, 28 March 2006:

That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, it be an instruction to the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights that it has power to make provision in the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 in relation to:

—the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2000 including increasing fines and penalties generally for firearm offences, creating mandatory minimum sentences for certain offences, introduction of a gun amnesty and amendments governing the grant of firearm certificates;

—the Explosives Act 1875 to provide for new offences relating to fireworks and increased penalties;

—offences relating to organised crime including an offence of participating in or contributing to any activity of a criminal organisation for the purpose of enhancing the ability of such an organisation to commit or facilitate a serious offence whether inside or outside the State, an offence of committing an offence for the benefit of a criminal organisation and an offence of conspiracy to commit a serious offence;

—the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977 in order to strengthen the existing sentencing provisions for drug trafficking offences, create a new offence of importation of drugs with a value of €13,000 or more, and a new offence of supplying drugs to prisons;

—a requirement in the interests of the common good, obliging persons convicted on indictment of certain drug trafficking offences to notify certain information to the Garda Síochána;

—sentencing including creating a statutory basis for suspended or partially suspended sentences, imposition of a fine and deferral of sentence, restriction on movement orders and electronic monitoring of offenders;

—civil proceedings in relation to anti-social behaviour by adults;

—the Children Act 2001 to provide for civil proceedings in relation to anti-social behaviour by children aged 12 or over and other juvenile justice matters, including amendments to facilitate the transfer of responsibility for the provision and operation of children detention schools from the Department of Education and Science to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform;

—the establishment of a body to be known as the Criminal Law Codification Advisory Committee to advise on the drawing up of a criminal code and monitor its implementation;

—a new offence of possession of an article intended for use in connection with certain offences;

—section 19 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 in order to expand the existing offence of assaulting or threatening to assault a peace officer to include medical personnel;

—the Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention against Torture) Act 2000 to clarify the meaning of ‘torture' as defined in that Act;

—the Courts (Supplemental Provisions) Act 1961 to clarify that a district court judge may exercise his or her powers in relation to his or her district anywhere in the State.

Mr. Connaughton

I intend to share time with Deputy Ring.

I am delighted to have this opportunity. I spoke on Second Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill many months ago and little did I know what the Bill heralded. The Minister said it was a far-reaching, all-embracing Bill badly needed to combat the vicious crimes taking place. On that occasion he convinced us the matters he was taking in hand were extremely important for the country and we believed him. He also said it was a comprehensive Bill and would stand the test of time. I do not know what time it has stood. I have been in this House a good while and I have never seen such a situation in which the amendments are seven or eight times greater in bulk than the Bill. One of two things happened: either the Minister did not know what he was doing when he introduced the Bill, or it is only in more recent months that he caught on to what was happening in the country.

Scenes such as those on the M50 last Saturday night remind one of Tombstone City with Davy Crockett shooting his way out of trouble. As long as that kind of thing happens in a democracy, there is something wrong with the Government, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the way we enforce the law. Regardless of who is involved, criminals or not, unless we cut this racket ordinary, decent people will one day be caught in the crossfire. It is the worst type of rot that has ever come into society. I do not engage in character assassination, however when the irrational Deputy McDowell jumped out of the car on to the sidewalk of a Dublin street he attacked a colleague of mine in a way one would not expect of a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I sincerely hope other more important matters and crises that will arise every day in his Department do not invoke the same reaction from Deputy McDowell. If they do, God help this country. It was irrational and out of all proportion. I have said this to his face and I am sorry I did not get the opportunity to do so again tonight as he is not here. It is one thing to be dictatorial but another to be irrational. That showed last week for everybody to see.

I have no trouble with most of what has been put before us except that Fine Gael will take many aspects of this seriously on Committee Stage. Given that I have only four or five minutes it is difficult to get involved in something as involved as this raft of 326 amendments. Suffice it to say that one of the things many people want, if it can be done, is mandatory sentencing. I am not a lawyer or a senior counsel but I know right from wrong. People who commit heinous crimes should not be out among the ordinary, working-class people without serving prison time. I hope a minimum mandatory sentence to which the Minister refers, be it five or ten years, will mean what most ordinary people think it means when the judge hands it down. Cases can be made for good conduct and co-operation with the court and the Garda. However, if the crime is as bad as recent vicious murders, all drugs and drink-related, and if this House decides that a minimum mandatory sentence of ten years should be imposed for that crime, I expect that person to serve ten years. People can argue in another forum that there are extenuating circumstances, but for this sort of crime the sentences should be served in full. This did not happen in drugs crimes where what was deemed to be a mandatory sentence was heavily reduced by the courts in certain cases. I hope we are not heading down this line in this instance.

I do not wish to deprive Deputy Ring of time, and I have much to say so I must hurry. I like the amnesty for surrendered weapons. Although nobody in this House knows how well it will work, it obviously makes good sense. Those guns should not be there. The problem is the arms will be forensically tested when they are received. The Minister included this so people who committed terrible crimes could be linked to the crime. People who commit such crimes will not hand in the guns. If "ordinary" criminals hand in their guns, that in itself will be good.

I do not have time to speak about firearms in general. Suffice it to say I hope none of those who have bona fide access to firearms, including sportspersons, will be criminalised. I do not believe that is the Minister's intention in this legislation.

The Minister went out of his way to state the crime rate is falling but I do not know where he got his statistics. A scientific survey carried out in my constituency recently began as a survey of anti-social behaviour in which some 1,400 people in Galway East saw fit to answer 38 questions. It is not often a survey questions so many people in an area, bearing in mind that the MRBI poll surveyed 1,050 people nationwide. The high number of respondents indicates how seriously the issue was taken.

A number of questions were asked and I do not have time to refer to them all. The first question asked whether County Galway needs extra gardaí, in response to which 93% said it did.

Mr. Ardagh

Amazing.

Mr. Connaughton

Another question asked whether respondents last saw a garda on foot patrol in their neighbourhood "last week", "last month" or "last year".

Mr. Ring

It was when Fianna Fáil was out of power.

Mr. Ardagh

What sort of science was used?

Mr. Connaughton

Those who replied "last year" amounted to 71% and a significant minority inserted the word "never" in response. The survey only surveyed 1,400 people in Galway East and the Deputy should not take any notice of them — the Minister is taking no notice.

Mr. Ardagh

Was the survey carried out scientifically?

Mr. Connaughton

The next question asked whether one would describe the general Garda presence in one's area as "very good", "satisfactory", "unsatisfactory" or "non-existent". Some 6% replied it was "very good", 25% said it was "satisfactory", 31% said it was "unsatisfactory" and 37% said it was "non-existent".

The next question sought to determine whether respondents had confidence in the ability of the courts to combat crime. It is a pity the Minister is not present to hear how they answered. Some 26% said they had confidence in the courts to combat crime and 74% said they did not.

The problem with the Minister and his colleagues in Government is that they do not believe these statistics. The responses reflect what ordinary people from every constituency are saying. The Government can make what it likes of the results, but when so many people decide to put their names to such a survey one can take it they are not satisfied. Regardless of any bluster on the part the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in front of the cameras on the streets of Dublin, and regardless of how rational he might become, the people who answered the questions in the survey do not believe him.

Mr. Ring

I am glad to be able to speak to this motion. It was very interesting to hear Deputy Connaughton and I am sorry he was not able to put all the results of the survey on the record. The survey pertained to Galway but the results would be the same in every constituency. People are worried about crime and the absence of law and order.

As was stated, the events of last weekend were like events from the wild west — this is not funny but very serious. I use the road on which the shootings took place and thousands of commuters use it every day. We were very lucky that ten or 20 people were not killed. The people involved were wearing protective clothing on the basis that they were going to shoot one another from cars. One would not have seen this in New York or Chicago in the time of Al Capone.

People are asking me what is going on, whether we have any Minister responsible for justice and whether we have any gardaí and law and order. They also ask what we are to do about crime. If events like the ones to which I referred continue, they will happen in every corner of the country. It is a bit like Northern Ireland in that there was a time in which nobody could go into south Armagh. Parts of Dublin are the same. I heard the Garda, Minister and Taoiseach state there are parts of Dublin that the Garda cannot enter and man. We have a very good, trained Army and if there is a problem in any part of the country that requires people who can use weapons, it should be used.

We have enough powers and Acts — we need to give the Garda enough money, resources and manpower to deal with the terrible crimes that are being committed. It is time we used the Army in this regard. I know people in the media will say we cannot have this but we can. There was a riot in this city two or three weeks ago not too far from this House. Our Army should have been used that evening to clear the thugs from the streets such that they would have been shown, once and for all, that there is law and order in this country.

The power is with the criminal all the time. The daughter of a constituent of mine, a young Leneghan girl, was murdered savagely in Britain a few months ago and last week the police in England were able to bring six individuals before the courts and have them charged with murder. In this country, however, there are two very serious cases involving two housewives and mothers who were murdered in their own homes, yet nobody has been charged to this day. Evidence points towards certain individuals, yet they cannot be brought before the courts. The time has come to give power to the ordinary citizens of this State who believe in law and order.

I have said previously in this House that the Garda and resources of the State sometimes do not target the right people but target the simple people who commit minor crimes. These crimes have to be dealt with because big crimes follow on from small ones, but we must take on the thugs who are running this city and shooting one another with guns. There is no longer respect for life or law and order. The thugs seem to believe they can enter anybody's house.

In this regard, consider poor Donna Cleary, an innocent woman who was killed at a party by a guy who shot her through the window. How many other people have been shot like this? I heard a Member refer to people who were shot in this State for owing €500 for drugs. Something must be done once and for all to deal with these thugs.

There was a time in this country when there was respect for life and law and order. The gangsters and criminals have taken over part of the country and we must take them on. We have enough powers and I hope whatever legislation is necessary is used. If the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 is to be the last Bill to deal with these people, that is fine — let us deal with them, take them on and get rid of them once and for all.

It is sad when the US Government is warning US tourists that Ireland is no longer a safe place. This is very serious given that the direct opposite was the case ten years ago. At that time, we were telling our citizens that the US was not safe to enter. It is now safer to walk the streets of New York than those of Dublin at any hour of the night. It is time we reversed this trend, returned power to the police and the people and cleaned up the places being taken over by criminals. If the Garda Síochána does not have the resources, it is time to bring in the Army and use it for back-up to ensure we can protect our citizens from guys who are playing with guns and want to take on the State with them. I never want to see another citizen put at risk by people who have become reckless and have gone out of control. They have no respect for their own lives, those of others or those of the police. It is time we gave the Garda the back-up and necessary resources to get these criminals off our streets.

We have not dealt with anti-social behaviour over the years. As a practising politician, I believe there is not a politician in this House who does not have people from housing estates in his or her clinic stating the problem of residents not behaving themselves is getting out of hand. Neither local authorities nor the Garda Síochána is prepared to take on these people. The local authority and Garda will claim that a neighbour will be required to give evidence in court. The neighbours are afraid to go to court. I know of one case in my town where the neighbours were forced to leave the house and not those creating the anti-social behaviour. They did not get the back-up of the State or the resources.

I met a woman in my office recently. Her daughter had been savagely beaten on the street and a file was sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions. Although I am advised that I should not write to the DPP, I will do so and express my view as a Member of the Oireachtas. I do not care if he brings me before any court in the State. I went to the local superintendent and set up a meeting for that mother. A person hopped out of a car and hit her child with a wheel brace. The child is now to be dealt with through some juvenile provision. The woman felt let down by the Garda and the State. She was certainly let down by the DPP. She told me that nobody came or wrote to her to inform her why the case was thrown out. Nobody told her what was contained in the file that was sent to the DPP.

She had to take the photographs and give them to the Garda Síochána. She said she was sick and tired of the country as there is no law or order. She tried to teach her family to stay within the law and she now feels she may need to take the law into her hands as the State and its prosecutor let her down. Neither she nor any member of her family ever broke the law. As there was a dispute in the school, the perpetrator, who was high on drugs, hopped out of the car and hit the child with a wheel brace. If any Member of the House got a puncture, would they even know where the wheel brace was? The act was premeditated and was wrong.

This case will need to go back to the DPP and the perpetrator will need to come before the courts. While the person who had committed the crime got social workers to talk to and free legal aid, my poor client was not contacted by anybody until I contacted the superintendent. I hope the superintendent will meet the family next week and explain to them what went wrong and whether the Garda will raise the case with the DPP again. If we are going to have the law for the criminals and not for the law-abiding citizens, we live in a sad country.

While we can make all the legislation we like in this House, if we do not allocate the resources and money, do not give the back-up to the police and do not have the courts deal with such criminals, we are wasting our time. In the coming years, this will not be a nice country in which to live.

Mr. Ardagh

I believe it is safer to walk the streets of Dublin than to walk the streets of New York or Washington.

Mr. Ring

I do not agree.

Mr. Kehoe

I do not know what part of Dublin Deputy Ardagh is from.

Mr. Ardagh

By comparison with most western democracies, Ireland has a very low crime rate. Crime remains a problem. We have recently seen a proliferation of crime among drug gangs, especially in parts of the south west of the country and in the west of Dublin. As Deputies Connaughton and Ring said, the use of guns on the M50 last weekend would remind one of Tombstone city, which is utterly intolerable. We have significant problems with drugs and with anti-social behaviour. Very few Deputies hold clinics without somebody coming to complain about harassment and the way that some young people are treating them and getting away with it.

The Garda Síochána Act and the Criminal Justice Bill, especially the amendments which have now been tabled, are designed to focus on four items. Deputy Connaughton mentioned mandatory sentencing. If the Legislature defines a minimum sentence of five or ten years, that must apply. There is the question of the separation of powers between the Judiciary and the Legislature. The people elect the Legislature to do a job. If the representatives of the people decide there should be a minimum mandatory sentence, the court, which is independent, should take on board fully what is decided by the Dáil, as representative of the people, and should ensure that those minimum mandatory sentences are given. In one of the amendments before us, the Minister has set out that the public interest is to be taken into account by judges when considering sentencing, particularly for offences to which a minimum mandatory sentence applies.

The question of firearms is a major issue and is current, especially in light of what happened last weekend. The constituency I represent, which includes Ballyfermot and Inchicore, has not been without its problems. Families in my constituency are still grieving and suffering as a result of the death of a loved one through the use of guns. Having one person involved in drugs or any crime should not mean that his or her family should suffer to the extent they do because of the use of guns.

I laud a number of the amendments before us, particularly the restriction on firearms with a certain muzzle power or velocity which will need a licence from the Garda Commissioner rather than normal guns which need a licence from a superintendent. A new offence for sawing off shotguns is to be introduced. Sawing off shotguns is especially cruel as it is done in the knowledge that the shotgun will be used with criminal intent. Minimum mandatory sentences are proposed for the intent to use guns for criminal activities.

A large number of guns are in circulation and to get them out of commission, a gun amnesty is to be introduced, which is a very good idea. It will mean that those with guns, who would feel much safer without them, will have the opportunity to give them up. At the same time those guns can be forensically tested and the results of those tests can be used in criminal prosecutions if needed. The implementation of the penalty for holding these types of guns with special power and design will be delayed until the end of the amnesty period so that it will not be an offence for people to hold such guns during the amnesty period.

We are all concerned about fireworks when it comes to Hallowe'en. It is a particular problem in Dublin and I am sure the same is true throughout the country. Many elderly people, in particular, are frightened and totally inconvenienced by the noise of bangers and the danger of rockets and other fireworks. I am delighted that an amendment will be proposed to make it an offence to possess fireworks with the intention of selling them. I do not know how this legislation will affect people who possess fireworks for domestic use. We need to examine the phenomenon of private or residential fireworks displays, which are increasingly being organised in estates and back gardens. Many people enjoy this form of entertainment, which is proliferating at present. There is something to be said for organising fireworks displays in a safe manner that protects young children, for example. We need to consider how the new measures in this regard can tie in with other measures.

I would like to speak about the question of organised crime, which needs to be examined. We all know about the gangs in west Dublin and Limerick, for example. Other criminal gangs which are not connected with political parties have emerged from paramilitary organisations in recent years. We are examining this issue in the proposed amendments, which will make it an offence to be a member of or participate in a gang with the intention of going out to commit an offence. The question of terrorism on the global stage increased in importance in the aftermath of the events of 11 September 2001. I am delighted that it has been proposed to make it an offence for a gang to conspire to commit offences abroad. That is welcome. It is often suggested that people should be prosecuted for committing offences if they gain personally from those offences. The amended Bill will also make it a specific offence to commit a crime for the benefit of an organisation as a whole.

Not only has there been a proliferation in the use of guns by gangs, but there has also been a significant increase in the use of drugs by gangs. Sentencing provisions are being examined in that context. As I mentioned earlier, the issue of mandatory sentencing is being considered in this regard. We should discuss the extent to which we should permit other factors to be taken into account. At present, judges take previous convictions etc. into account. It is proposed to allow other matters, such as public interest, to be taken into account as well.

I welcome the fact that the amended legislation will create a new offence of importing drugs worth more than €13,000. The issue of drug-free prisons, which are desirable, has been debated for a long time. In that regard, the supplying of drugs to a prisoner will become an offence under this Bill. It is important that we have good intelligence and that we are able to investigate this country's drug culture and the people involved in it in an effective manner. To that end, the Bill will provide for the establishment of a drug offenders' register. Any person who is convicted of drug offences to which a sentence of imprisonment of more than a year applies will be placed on the register. Such people will have to notify the Garda of any changes of address. The Garda will be able to build up a better picture of who is involved in supplying drugs, keep up to date with where such people are found and target them in a more effective manner. It is a very welcome provision.

Sentencing is another matter that is being addressed in the proposed amendments. That is welcome because we have moved well beyond the old approach of locking people up and ignoring them before letting them out after five years or more. We have to provide for alternative penalties such as suspended sentences, fines and the deferral of custody. Such penalties will be put on a statutory basis so that judges will be able to impose conditions on the suspended sentences they hand down to people who have been convicted of crimes. People might be required to perform certain remedial actions, such as attending courses, which might help to reduce the likelihood of reoffending. It will also be open to judges to impose restrictions on the movements of offenders. People might be obliged to stay close to a certain area or to stay away from a certain area. I understand that it is intended to use electronic tagging in this regard. While it may not be used in the immediate future, the legislation will allow it to be used at some future time.

Deputy Ring spoke about anti-social behaviour, which is giving us all great headaches in our local electoral bases. Every politician in this House receives representations on a regular basis about the effects of the behaviour of certain individuals on the quality of life of others. We need to put in place a system whereby people are asked and encouraged to desist from anti-social behaviour and given warnings about that behaviour. If they do not take heed of such warnings, meetings should be arranged with Garda superintendents. If young people are involved in anti-social behaviour, parents should accompany their children to such meetings. If, having followed the many steps involved in the system, the Garda superintendent feels it would be helpful to impose an anti-social behaviour order on an individual, he or she should be able to ask the District Court to take such action. It should be a civil matter rather than a criminal matter so that no criminal record will attach to the person involved until the point at which an anti-social behaviour order is imposed on him or her.

Many of us have children or know children in our neighbourhoods, and we know it is easy for young people from any social background to get into trouble, regardless of the amount of money or education they have. We should try to ensure they do not have a criminal record on foot of the process I have outlined, if at all possible, so that their ability to visit other countries such as the United States is not affected and they will not be stopped at borders. The proposed amendments to the Bill, as it stands, will help to ensure that due process is observed over a suitably long period of time in a fair, reasonable and well thought-out manner that is based on annoyance and damage to the quality of life of the community. That is a good response to the type of anti-social behaviour that is to be found all over the place.

People describe the anti-social behaviour order as a middle class response to working class people and problems. That is not the reality. Every location, regardless of the housing value or whether the homes are middle class or working class, experiences problems with anti-social behaviour. Probably there are more in those areas that are less economically endowed. Deputy Crowe, for example, listed a number of problems that he has encountered in his constituency which could be mitigated or reduced if the anti-social behaviour order procedure was in place. It is very important that the facility is in place.

It is something I hope will not be abused. The calibre of the Garda, certainly in the district in which I operate in Dublin South-Central, is exemplary. I am thinking of the community inspector, sergeant and all the gardaí who work with them. They have a marvellous team and work very well with the residents and public representatives. They have the young people who might otherwise be offenders very much at heart. I am sure they will not abuse this power.

The codification of the criminal law has been in question for a long time. I am glad the Minister took the opportunity of effectively accepting the proposals of the expert group. Professor Finbarr McAuley was the chairman of that group. He has now accepted the position as chairman of the codification of the criminal law group. It will be a long drawn-out process but it is very important that all the criminal law be codified into one volume. I know that a great deal of research is involved and I want to wish Professor McAuley and his team well in their endeavours for the future.

In so far as the Criminal Justice Bill is concerned, as chairman of the committee to which all the amendments are coming, I know that the members will work hard to ensure that the best Bill will emerge from their deliberations. I hope that all Members of the House and the people will be proud of the end result.

Mr. Kehoe

I am greatly honoured to have the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I very much welcome the Criminal Justice Bill to the House. It is unfortunate that it is too little, too late, however, based on what we have seen in the recent past. Matters have got out of control.

I am very disappointed that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not in the House. I know he cannot be in the Chamber all the time. Nonetheless, there are Ministers of State and I am disappointed they are not here, which is no reflection on the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley. The Minister or Ministers of State in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform should be here to listen to the contributions from Members. That would give them a flavour of what is happening locally. I know the Minister has had his officials in the House but it is a disgrace that no political representative of the Department is present. There are enough of them.

Nonetheless, I very much welcome the Bill and the measures that will seek to address the problems which we are experiencing in upholding law and order. The events of last Saturday night and Sunday morning are just another example of the frightening disregard that gangland criminals appear to have for law and order within civil society. These people are absolute scumbags and no jail sentence is good enough for them. I say that deliberately because the people involved in that shooting on Saturday night and Sunday morning are the lowest of the low, the scum of the earth. It maddens me to think they would not give any statement when brought into the Garda barracks. They are cowards, as well as being scumbags in that they are covering up for each other as part of the whole drug culture.

We saw the shooting of that innocent woman a few weeks ago. What happened then and the events at the weekend are examples of what is occurring in this city every night of the week, except that it is not being seen because the gardaí are not in place. People are being threatened with gunfire and all the other types of criminal activity occurring within the city relating to drugs.

The drugs problem has got out of control. While reluctant to blame anyone in particular, I believe this Government is largely responsible. I recall being interested in politics in the years 1994 to 1997. The then Minister for Justice, Deputy Nora Owen could not do anything without Deputy O'Donoghue jumping up and down like a Jack-in-a-box. It is all right for Deputy O'Donoghue, now in Cabinet, to see what is happening, with matters today ten times or even 100 times worse than when Fine Gael, Labour and Democratic Left were in Government from 1994 to 1997. He was in every newspaper and on every radio and television station blaming Deputy Owen for what was happening. That is a far cry from what we see today. I hope the measures in this Bill will be effective in the fight against organised crime. However, I cannot help wondering whether it is too little too late. I strongly believe that the Minister should have taken serious action before this.

On the issue of firearms, there is no doubt that their ready availability is the major contributory factor to the increase in gun related crimes. Increases in fines and penalties as well as minimum sentences for certain types of offences should be forthcoming. I am convinced the regulation of the guns in circulation is vital following two unfortunate and regrettable domestic situations in my town in the past two weeks, where guns were at the centre of both incidents. There is a need for much more stringent controls on the possession and ownership of guns.

Guns are readily available. I know the X-ray screens are operating at Dublin Airport, but they are not just coming in through the airports, but also the ports. Where are people at the centre of the drugs culture getting their guns from? They are getting them from across the water and bringing them into Ireland. The power and control allegedly being exercised by organised crime and its bosses is frightening. What is even more frightening is the notion that they can extend their fields of influence beyond their own areas and widen their net. In my constituency, especially in the Gorey area, the drug culture has increased greatly in recent years because of the massive population build-up. I blame the lack of gardaí locally for this.

I received figures this evening from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform concerning the numbers of gardaí in my constituency. The rise in the population does not correspond proportionately to the increase in the numbers of gardaí. There is a significant population, especially in the Gorey area, and five or six extra gardaí since 1997 is nothing for the Government to gloat about. Thousands of people have moved into the Gorey and Enniscorthy areas. Two extra gardaí have been allocated to the latter area since 1997.

I tabled a further question to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on how many extra gardaí we will receive in County Wexford from the promised extra 2,000 gardaí. He replied the Garda authorities are happy with the Garda figures in Enniscorthy, Wexford, Gorey and New Ross. When I spoke to the superintendent he told me he was not happy and that he is constantly seeking extra gardaí but he cannot get them. The lack of gardaí is a major contributory factor to the increase in drugs, gun crime and so on. The situation has gone completely out of control.

I welcome the moves to tackle anti-social behaviour. I held a public meeting on this subject in the summer of 2005 at which I heard horror stories from the people who attended. I wholeheartedly agree with Deputy Ardagh. People in upper class housing estates blame people from local authority housing estates for problems that occur but this is not always the case. In many cases people from upper class housing estates go to other housing estates to congregate and get involved in anti-social behaviour, be it in regard to drugs, underage drinking or whatever else.

Fine Gael has made some radical proposals on anti-social behaviour and the Government should take on board some of them which are based on consultation with the public. Fine Gael's public representatives organised meetings on anti-social behaviour right across the country. It was not afraid to listen to people's concerns. The Minister has not listened to the genuine concerns of people on the ground, be it in regard to anti-social behaviour, crime, drugs, robbery and so on.

I received some additional figures on crime this evening. It has been stated that the number of detections are up. In 2000, 335 headline offences were recorded in the Enniscorthy area and detections followed in 160 cases. In 2005, there were 575 recorded headline crimes and 251 of these were detected. How can the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform state the number of headline crimes is down and the number of detections is up? He is not telling the truth. The same is true of the Gorey area where 486 headline crimes were recorded in 2000, of which 229 were detected. In 2005, 902 headline crimes were recorded there, of which 411 were detected. Less than half the crimes were detected in both years. The Minister can blab about what he is doing and not doing but it would be more in his line to address the problem.

I am delighted to have been able to contribute to this debate. I hope the second part of the Bill will go some way towards decreasing the rise in the drugs culture and the number of shootings.

Mr. Deenihan

I am pleased to have an opportunity to comment on the Bill. Like previous speakers I am concerned the Bill will not be properly discussed in this House. I understand the amendments run to something like 300 pages. These amendments are ten times the size of a regular Bill. I cannot see how the Bill will be properly discussed in the House in the time provided for Second and Committee Stages. This is the wrong way to do business and it is the reason flawed legislation passes through the House. I am convinced flaws will also subsequently be discovered in this Bill.

Fine Gael has consistently put pressure on the Minister to bring forward this legislation. We have no intention of obstructing it and we will try to be as helpful as possible. In Deputy Jim O'Keeffe we have one of the most positive politicians in this House. The question must be asked why the Minister delayed so long and is now doing his best to rush this Bill through the Dáil. As a former Attorney General and well known barrister he should realise this is not the best way to do business.

As previous speakers stated, the Bill creates a number of new offences but some of these, such as the gun and explosives measures, belong in a dedicated Bill rather than making this Bill enormous and cumbersome. The Minister is obviously trying to lump in all of the actions that, in his opinion, will make a contribution. I accept he is sincere about the effectiveness of the provisions but he is wrong in trying to put them all into one Bill. He has been four years in office and he has run out of time. He has lectured us and told us he knows more about law than anybody else in this country. We saw his response to Deputy Bruton last week. The Minister is obviously very confident in his ability but after four years he has achieved very little.

When people look back on his record they will see how the crime problem has escalated, the drugs problem is out of control and young people from all backgrounds are indulging in anti-social behaviour on the streets at night. It appears this problem is becoming more widespread and the gardaí cannot control it. I will refer later to some local examples of this problem.

I welcome some of the Bill's provisions such as the new drug offenders register, which is very important. The Minister should expand more on it. The sex offenders register is proving to be very effective. I recently saw it in operation. A drug offenders list could also prove to be effective.

Our party welcomes the two-step process outlined in the Government amendments in regard to anti-social behaviour orders. It is intended that a behaviour warning will first be issued and this will be followed by a civil order. The Minister should address people's concerns about these orders and how they will operate. There may be room for abuse or the introduction of child criminality by the back door. I accept the Minister of State will refer further to this provision later. These matters must be clarified. Sentencing policy is in dire need of an overhaul and the provisions outlined by the Minister in the Bill fall far short of the mark. The Minister has referred to the codification of criminal law for some time and this appears to be something he wants to push through.

Most Deputies refer to what is happening in their local areas in regard to anti-social behaviour. There is a totally inadequate Garda station in Castleisland, County Kerry. In fairness to the Minister he has been promoting the case for Castleisland. Last weekend a female garda had her nose broken and her companions were attacked while people stood idly by. Members of the public did not help them. Were it not for the fact that other gardaí came to their assistance, they could have been seriously injured. On the same weekend, three off duty gardaí were attacked in Tralee and savagely beaten by a crowd who picked on them. These are examples of what is happening in County Kerry, but similar attacks are taking place all over the country. Control has been lost.

There is a world of difference between Members of this House speaking about legislation and sentencing policy and what is happening on the street. How many of us are on the street between the hours of midnight and 3 a.m. to see what is happening? I advise most politicians that it would be unsafe because politicians are not the most popular with people at that hour of the morning. We do not have a knowledge of what is happening on the street. The Minister is very good on the law but he does not have a full grasp of its application. I agree with the proposal for a reserve police force but the Minister's idea of the practicalities of its operation is in conflict with the thinking of the rank and file gardaí. He should listen more to their opinions rather than lecturing them, which they resent. They are dealing with more sophisticated, violent criminals who are under the influence of drugs most of the time, who have no respect for a garda or for law and order.

The area of law and order requires far more resources, which will cost more. The House will need to decide on an all-party basis that the Garda Síochána should be given more resources. That is the only way to combat crime. Drugs are pouring into the country. Shannon Airport has no screening policy in place and drugs can come freely through that airport. An article in yesterday's newspaper reported there is no one there to stop them. This is also the case in other airports. I use Kerry Airport and I know that it does not have sniffer dogs except on an occasional basis and people just walk through. There may be the odd big haul of drugs but 90% of the time people are getting away with such crimes. It is a serious and challenging situation.

Law and order is collapsing despite what the Minister may say. Crimes are not being reported and we lack the full knowledge of what is happening. People do not report crimes that were reported ten years ago because they do not receive a response. The situation is serious. Legislation alone will not resolve the problem. More enforcement and a presence on the ground is required.

Mr. Haughey

I support this motion which heralds major amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, which will be considered shortly by the Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. The select committee will spend many hours debating these amendments. I hope they can be agreed and put in place in the shortest possible timeframe.

The Minister has stated that these amendments will address a wide range of important issues. The existing provisions of the Bill, together with these new amendments, will ensure that the criminal law will be updated and strengthened in several key areas. The Garda Síochána will be given powers to deal with firearms offences.

The public are seriously concerned about the scourge of gun crime and organised crime which is fuelled by the prevalence of drugs in our society. The callous murder of Donna Cleary, a young mother from Coolock, on Sunday morning, 5 March 2006, shocked the ordinary, decent people of this country. Donna Cleary was an innocent person who was shot by a drug-crazed thug while she was attending a birthday party. Her murder was a watershed, a landmark, which brought home to us all the brutal reality of gangland crime on our streets.

Donna Cleary was a popular person. Her friends admired her because of the way she dealt with the difficulties of life. Her family is held in high regard in her local community and is actively engaged in many voluntary and community organisations. With her father, she was heavily involved in the Northside and District Racing Pigeon Club.

Her family is understandably heartbroken as a result of her murder. Nevertheless, they have contacted their local Deputies to see if anything positive can come out of this awful tragedy. They wish to actively promote and support the proposed gun amnesty that is being debated in the House this evening. I congratulate them on their courage in standing up for this measure. I hope that this proposal will be successful and that it will play a significant role in ridding our cities of indiscriminate and random shootings and killings. The gun amnesty will be forever linked with the name of Donna Cleary and this will be of some consolation to her family at this very difficult time.

The Minister is proposing to introduce on a statutory basis a gun amnesty during which firearms may be surrendered to the Garda Síochána before new penalties and minimum mandatory sentences are introduced. I wholeheartedly welcome this proposal. The idea of an amnesty first gained prominence in May last year, following the murder of Joseph Rafferty. Unfortunately there are no reliable estimates from the Garda Síochána or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform as to the exact number of unlicensed firearms in the State but the figure is believed to be in the thousands. The majority of unlicensed firearms are believed to be disused weapons, shotguns, hunting rifles and even antiques. The chief concern must be that these could be stolen and used in armed crime. Between 2002 and 2004, a total of 1,330 weapons were stolen. It is believed that a number of gangs involved in the robbery of weapons are renting them to other criminals.

The Minister has stated the amnesty will not apply to weapons used in crime. The guns handed over will be forensically tested to identify whether they have been used in a previous crime. I am not sure whether this would be a discouragement and I would welcome the Minister's views.

There have been a number of successful examples of gun amnesties. National amnesties were introduced in the UK in 1996 following the Dunblane tragedy and in 2003 following the murder of two girls at a new year's eve party in Birmingham. Gun amnesties were also introduced in South Africa and Ottawa. The 1996 and 2003 UK amnesties saw over 40,000 weapons surrendered to the authorities. I suggest that the period of the amnesty should be sufficiently long and that thought should be given to it. The amnesty in South Africa was extended to six months and there were calls to extend the 2003 UK amnesty from one month to two.

Youth leaders in Birmingham at the time highlighted another problem in that criminals with guns did not want to go to a police station to hand in weapons. Neutral, anonymous venues were sought. Perhaps the Minister could let us know his thoughts on this issue.

All of these issues can be thrashed out on Committee and Report Stages. I am confident that as a result of this legislative process, we can get it right.

During the Second Stage debate on the Bill, I raised the concerns of legitimate gun clubs involved in the sport of game shooting and clay pigeon shooting. I hope it will be possible to cater for their concerns as we introduce this tough new legislation.

Gun crime was extremely rare in this country. However, guns are increasingly being used to settle even minor disputes within and between criminal gangs. The shoot-out on the M50 last Sunday, 26 March, is the latest evidence of this. Those who commit gangland killings are seldom apprehended. Much gun crime is in response to previous incidents. If gardaí were more successful in dealing with preliminary incidents, reprisals could be prevented and the spiral stopped. The new measures announced in the motion will help gardaí to achieve this.

Gun crime is no longer confined to certain groups and minor criminals are increasingly becoming involved. There is a mistaken view among sections of our society that it is okay for gangland criminals to shoot themselves — some even see it as positive. That is a dangerous road to take because innocent people will get caught in the crossfire, which has happened. That is the challenge which faces us all.

Operation Anvil was launched by the Garda Síochána on 17 May 2005. This is an intensive special policing operation which is intelligence driven and focuses on those involved in gun crime of any kind in the Dublin region. This operation must continue and must be fully backed up with increased resources. Operation Anvil has had some success to date. Between 17 May 2005 and 28 March 2006 there were 1,792 arrests, 31 linked to murders, 440 for serious assaults, 414 for robbery and 907 for burglary. There were 8,347 drug searches, 873 theft related searches and 776 firearms searches, with 374 firearms recovered. Some 3,934 vehicles were seized and the value of property recovered was over €6 million. In addition a total of 4,400 firearms were seized between 1999 and 2004, according to Garda figures. The number seized has fluctuated between 700 and 800 in most years and 822 were seized in 2004, the last year for which figures are available. Airguns, rifles and shotguns account for approximately 80% of the firearms seized every year and machine guns and pistols are becoming slightly more prevalent.

There is no doubt our communities want to see more gardaí on the beat. The view is that burglaries and robberies by drug users could be prevented if the gardaí were more visible. As a Deputy it is heartbreaking to call to the home of an old age pensioner living alone to hear the tale of how his or her house was broken into and ransacked, with perhaps €300 or €400 stolen, which happens regularly. It would go a long way towards reassuring the public if gardaí were seen on the beat.

Some €1.29 billion is being provided to the Garda Síochána this year, a 13% increase on last year. There are 1,500 more gardaí now than in 1997, making a total of 12,300 gardaí. This will increase to 14,000 next year. These extra gardaí should be seen; they should be out and about and involved in our communities, in particular through the community policing programme. Local communities would get a great boost if and when this happens.

I regularly get reports from local residents to the effect that drug dealing is taking place in a certain house on a certain road. I often report such information to the Garda. It is discouraging when several months later nothing appears to have happened. I would like to know what is happening with regard to such cases. It may be that gardaí have the house under surveillance and are trying to catch the bigger fish but the public need to be reassured that if reports are made in regard to drug dealing in a house, they will be dealt with effectively by the Garda.

I welcome the new measures being introduced in regard to participation in criminal gangs. This is a complex legal issue but one which must be dealt with. There is a view that judges are imposing sentences that are too lenient and that they try to circumvent mandatory minimum sentences if at all possible. It seems many professional criminals are at large as a result. In addition, there is clear evidence that some judges have become remote and out of touch with the reality on the ground. The new amendments before us will bring into existence new legislation to try to deal with these problems. Once again, the Legislature is making its views on these issues abundantly clear.

The Minister proposes amendments to the Explosives Act 1875. These include the introduction of a new offence of possession of fireworks for sale without a licence. In addition, he proposes increases in the fines and penalties generally under the 1875 Act. I propose that the Minister goes a little further in this regard. Fireworks are prevalent in Dublin and throughout the country at Hallowe'en. I suggest that community groups, local residents' associations and so on should be in a position to apply to their local authority for a licence to conduct fireworks displays. It is obvious we need tough laws but we also need to encourage community involvement. In that regard, if fireworks are part of a community activity, a licence could be sought from the local authority. We should facilitate this development.

My final point concerns the demand for drugs. Most of my contribution dealt with the supply of drugs and how we deal with that issue. The Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs administers the national drugs strategy 2001-08, which incorporates the work of the local and regional drugs task forces and the young people's facilities and services fund. Through these initiatives a broad range of community and voluntary groups are funded to tackle drug misuse. We cannot underestimate the importance of this effort. It goes hand in hand with the measures we debate in this motion.

Ms Lynch

I wish to share time with Deputies O'Sullivan and O'Shea.

Acting Chairman (Mr. McGinley)

That is agreed.

Ms Lynch

I share the concerns expressed by Deputy Costello about this Bill given the 200 amendments to it which run to 300 pages. It is beyond me that such important legislation should have the sheep-like consent of the members of the Government parties. They, particularly those representing the greater Dublin area, must surely be as concerned as the Opposition about this issue. This is not a question of opposition merely for the sake of opposition. This is important legislation not only for the greater Dublin area. One would imagine, as I am sure would the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, that the only part of Ireland where there is crime is the greater Dublin area. It is as if the only thing that happens in Ireland happens in Dublin, if something does not happen in Dublin it does not happen at all and in that case there is no need to address it.

I attended a meeting recently the full proceedings of which focused on what was reported in The Irish Times. I am reluctant to give free publicity to anyone who does not give me free publicity. One of the good aspects of living in Cork is that we are not as fixated with The Irish Times as are people in Dublin. Not alone are they fixated with that newspaper, they are fixated with anything that happens in the region.

I listened to Deputy Haughey's contribution and his basic point was that judges are out of touch with what is happening on the ground. We all know that judges come from a particular elite. They must have knowledge of the law, a certain standard and practice. That is an acknowledged code and we accept that, but a fact we must never accept is that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is out of touch. The reason he is out of touch is that he comes from the same elite. How could he possibly know about crime on the north side of Cork and in other inner cities? The man would not recognise crime in such a place if it jumped up and bit him. He would not have a notion what it feels like to be mugged, to have one's purse snatched or to have to put up with a group of people who are making one's life a misery through engaging in anti-social behaviour every night of the week. Such crime occurs in other parts of the country as well as in Dublin. This legislation is not only about Dublin but also about the rest of the country and we need to ensure that it serves that need.

I will advise Members of the position in Cork North-Central which, as they will have gathered, is the constituency I represent — I would not be talking about it otherwise. After 10 p.m. any night the Garda force operating in Cork North-Central virtually shuts down. That happens not because the gardaí have gone home or because they like to work from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. or from 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. but because they do not have sufficient numbers. There are two Garda stations in Cork North-Central, which anyone who has canvassed there will know is a fairly sprawling constituency. The stations in Watercourse Road and Mallow Road close and the station in MacCurtain Street is closed for good. The members of the force operating in my constituency have only one patrol car. If anyone is of the view that two gardaí in one patrol car can deal with crimes let alone crime prevention, they are fooling themselves. If my son was a garda and he had to go to an estate where he might have to face 20 young fellows, who are not aged 13 or 14 but whose ages range up to 25, one could not expect him or any young garda to leave a patrol car and walk into the middle of such a hostile group to confront them.

There is a lack of gardaí on the beat in communities, who know the area they police and who know the people involved in crime. Gardaí have become almost invisible because there are not sufficient numbers. Yet we have to continue to listen to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform telling us what we should do. He is the great lecturer of all time. There is a major case to be made for not appointing a person who practises a certain profession as Minister with responsibility for that profession. The same applies to the education portfolio, of that I am convinced.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been arguing both sides of a case for so long that he cannot make a decision. He could defend me tomorrow and prosecute me the next day and he would not have a problem with that because that is what he is trained to do. It is that type of thinking, whereby one does not know which side of the fence one is on, that has led us to the position where the man concerned cannot make a decision. His lack of decision-making has left us in a position where people no longer report crime or feel safe in their homes, and anti-social behaviour is the crime of the day in Ireland and elsewhere.

Ms O’Sullivan

The first point I wish to make was made by our party spokesperson, Deputy Costello, and by others, namely, how an Opposition spokesperson is supposed to consider this Bill is beyond me. That any legislature would make a good job of addressing this legislation is also beyond me. On Committee Stage Members will have to deal with amending the following list of legislation: the Firearms Act 1925, the Explosives Act 1875, the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977, the Children Act 2001, section 19 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994, the Criminal Justice (United Nations Convention Against Torture) Act 2000 and the Courts (Supplemental Provisions) Act 1961 as well as the Criminal Justice Act with which they will be presented in the first instance.

I do not know how the Oireachtas will properly adjudicate on and end up with decent legislation after its deliberations. I do not believe it will be able to properly correlate what is in this legislation with the other legislation to which I referred. We could well end up with a legislative mess. We could discover that we have made serious mistakes with regard to criminal justice because of the way in which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform aims to do business in this regard. I strongly make that point. It is crazy what the Oireachtas is being asked to do in dealing with this huge swathe of amendments on top of the original legislation and trying to relate it to the other relevant legislation. I would not like to be an Opposition spokesperson dealing with this legislation and I do not believe that anybody will be able to properly deal with it. It is our duty as legislators to properly deal with legislation and to properly amend it as necessary.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform thinks he is better than everybody else and that the rest of us are not even knee high to him. I do not know how he can be Minister with responsibility for equality with that attitude. He obviously thinks that this is a sensible thing to do and that it can be done, but he is misleading the public. He constantly does that and bamboozles the public that by introducing all this legislation somehow or other he will address the problem of crime. He will not do so in that way, certainly not by this type of legislation nor by what he does in general. He keeps telling people that he is introducing legislation to address this, that and the other issue, while members of the public know that what they really need is Garda resources and the implementation of legislation that is already on the Statute Book. I do not object to some of the measures the Minister proposes to introduce in this Bill but if he does not allocate the necessary resources, he is wasting his time.

There are issues in regard to firearms, explosives, drug trafficking and so on, but if the Garda does not have the resources to implement that legislation it is going nowhere. If the Garda capacity in the communities that are beset by crime — I know about this as much as anybody else in the constituency from which I come — is not sufficient to deal with the criminals in its midst, we are going nowhere, and the Minister knows that. If the capacity of groups such as probation and welfare officers is insufficient, it will not be possible to deal with the young people when they initially become involved in crime and when something can be done for them. They will go on to become hardened criminals like their older brothers, whatever about their sisters.

There are much broader issues involved than simply the introduction of legislation dealing with crime. At night-time, for example, when people really need protection, the Garda does not have the resources to look after people in my own community. Deputy Lynch is correct. There are estates in my constituency where people feel bereft of support at night-time. It is no wonder that people are afraid to give evidence and that courts have difficulty in getting people to make statements against hardened criminals. Such witnesses have their windows, their cars threatened and, at times, their lives threatened because there is not adequate protection for them. It is all very well to state that people do not always carry through with making complaints, but one must give them and their communities the protection necessary to be able to stand up properly, in conjunction with the Garda, to the criminals in their midst.

The issue of community policing is one that my party has raised repeatedly and it has been a firm policy of ours for a long time that we need proper community policing. We also need proper local liaison committees that will liaise between communities and the police. Such committees still have not been put in place in any real way by the current Government. In the area where I live, we have set up regular consultation meetings between a representative group of residents in the different areas within the broader area and the Garda, and we meet two, three or four times a year. That is effective but we have had to do that ourselves. There is no structure through which local communities can directly involve themselves with the Garda unless they initiate it themselves.

The communities most beset by criminals are often the ones that do not possess the strength to set up such meetings because much of the time those who become the community leaders involved in setting up these effective liaison meetings are setting themselves up as targets. I agree with Deputy Lynch that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, has no clue about what it is like to live in a community beset by criminals and about how much courage a person not properly protected must have in those communities to live any kind of normal life and be able to stand up to them.

There are a number of other issues. I want to refer, for example, to the misuse of drugs and strengthening the existing sentencing provisions for drug trafficking offences. Recently we had reason to raise an issue relating to two of our airports, Cork and Shannon, where there are no customs officials rostered at certain times at night when international flights arrive. I fail to understand how, on the one hand, the Government is not even putting customs officials in place while, on the other, the Minister is trying to strengthen the legislation against drug trafficking.

Mr. O’Shea

In the short time available I will refer to a number of points in the Bill rather than attempt to address the entire range of matters concerned. During a debate in the Dáil on the care of the elderly, I spoke about concerns expressed to me by someone in the community sector who has a particular commitment to the elderly. He spoke of a party held for elderly people in Waterford city last Christmas. Virtually all those who attended were elderly ladies and most of them were widows. Many of these ladies used go out to play bridge and bingo but they have stopped doing so for fear of their personal security. It is terrible that this should be the case and that, obviously, Ireland is no longer as pleasant a place in which to grow old as it used be.

Following last Hallowe'en, I had reason to raise in this House my concerns regarding serious anti-social behaviour which took place in Tramore, County Waterford, the town in which I live, that night and in the period prior to it. What used be over the years an evening of great fun for the community at large, but especially for the children, proved to be an occasion of fear, intimidation and upset for many.

When considering the amendments which were presented to the House today by the Minister, I asked myself what impact, if any, their enactment will have on situations such as the two I have described. The amendments the Minister is proposing to the Explosives Act 1875, which include the introduction of a new offence of possession of fireworks for sale without a licence, are to be welcomed in the context of my concerns surrounding Hallowe'en. That amendment is fine as far as it goes, but what measures is the Minister proposing in connection with those who buy fireworks in Northern Ireland for their own use and for the use of their relations and friends — in other words, where they are lawfully purchased in Northern Ireland and are not for resale? I put it to the Minister that what he proposes, while welcome, will be of limited effect.

The introduction of anti-social behaviour orders for adults could have a beneficial effect for older people, particularly when they are out at night. It seems that this proposal is close to the present practice of binding people to the peace. The fact that it is to be a last resort after other options have been tried and have failed makes it more acceptable. The granting of the order by civil means on the application of a senior Garda so that a criminal record is not acquired is welcome. The committing of a criminal offence by the breach of an order gives space to the person against whom the order was granted to get his or her act together.

The concept of the anti-social behaviour order has an uncomfortable feel about it and, obviously, such orders should be used sparingly when all other approaches have failed and in the face of ongoing chronic anti-social behaviour by an individual or individuals. The application for and granting of anti-social behaviour orders must be closely monitored and kept under constant review in terms of their efficacy and fairness. The Minister should consider providing for this in the legislation.

I also raised recently in the House the activities, both criminal and anti-social, of some individuals which can create a hell on earth for individuals, families and neighbourhoods. They can assume the status of untouchables because of the fear and intimidation they engender in prospective witnesses. The fear of reprisals, as my colleague, Deputy O'Sullivan, stated, is a significant factor in urban areas. Without appropriate evidence, there are no convictions. Anti-social behaviour orders should have a limited use but could have a beneficial effect. I say this on behalf of the elderly and vulnerable in our society.

One of the miscellaneous proposals which I welcome is the measure to protect staff in accident and emergency departments in hospitals and other emergency workers from attacks and assaults. Such assaults and attacks are doubly outrageous in that they interfere with the delivery of vital services and this can have serious outcomes in some circumstances, quite apart from the harm caused to the deliverers of essential services. These workers deserve every possible support and protection that the State and society can offer.

I look forward to reading and, I hope, agreeing with the reckless endangerment of children Report Stage amendments which the Minister has promised arising from the Ferns Inquiry. This is an area which requires urgent, comprehensive and effective attention.

The introduction of a gun amnesty is welcome, especially if the result is worthwhile, but one fears that its success could be quite limited bearing in mind the kind of individuals who hold the most dangerous armouries.

The strengthening of the law on participation in a criminal gang, conspiracy to commit a serious offence and committing an offence for the benefit of a criminal organisation all appear to be movements in the right direction, but for criminal law to be effective, the Garda, which enforces the law, must be given the optimum level of assistance to effectively apprehend criminals, particularly serious criminals, and bring them to justice. A fundamental aspect of the effectiveness of our legal system is that the punishment follows quickly on the committing of the crime. Reform of administrative procedures within the Garda in preparing cases, more rapid processing of cases within the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and greater speed within the courts system will be required and will require in most instances additional resources, but there is no alternative but to provide these resources.

Mr. McGuinness

I welcome the opportunity to debate this motion. On Second Stage of this Bill, Members had opportunities to raise local issues such as the numbers of gardaí and crime rates in various constituencies. During that debate, I raised the need for more time and expressed my concerns on the operation of ASBOs. The debate on this motion provides the Opposition and Government backbenchers with an opportunity to discuss the 200 or more amendments proposed. However, I did not hear any specific mention of the amendments, except for general criticisms of the Bill. Reference was made to a lack of time, despite the allocation of double time in terms of Second Stage and this motion. If the Opposition has lost time on this matter, it is its own fault for addressing the amendments to the Bill in the manner it did.

I appreciate it is a wide-ranging Bill and time will be required on Committee Stage to tease out the problems involved and I commend the Minister for bringing the Bill and the amendments before the House for debate. In his speech, the Minister proposed a number of changes. For example, he referred to the need for legislation to ensure stability and order in society and rehearsed other measures to support the Garda Síochána. I will not now join the debate on the numbers of gardaí on the streets.

I welcome the provisions in this Bill on firearms and explosives and the mandatory minimum sentences of between five and ten years for offences in this area. That is essential if the legislation is to be brought up to date and to ensure sentences reflect the serious crimes currently being committed in society. The amendment of the Explosives Act 1875 is also welcome because the number of fireworks set off at Hallowe'en and other festive occasions can lead one to believe they are legal rather than illegal.

An offence of importing drugs is provided for in amendments and is to be welcomed because of the amount of drugs that already exist in society. I am glad to see proposals on a drug offenders register, which will be administered by the Garda.

Anti-social behaviour orders are being spelled out in the context of how they will affect children between the ages of 12 and 18 and, thereafter, others. These will be implemented by senior gardaí.

I have rehearsed the elements of the Minister's proposals which I consider relevant and which will take up a considerable proportion of Garda time. I am particularly interested in the proposals for protecting accident and emergency staff and other emergency service workers.

Having listened carefully to all arguments, when one relates the legislation to what is going on in Garda stations throughout the country, I am reminded of the Minister and his statistics because the reality is quite different. A body of legislation will be passed and given to the gardaí to implement. It could be said with regard to the recent debate on the Minister and his statistics that there are lies, damn lies and statistics. I was impressed with the way the Minister reconciled himself with Deputy Bruton but that may have been a case of general election courtship, in that he was looking beyond the next general election campaign. When one looks beyond the statistics, however, our Garda stations tell a different story.

I am inclined to agree that the Minister should take more note of what is said in this House and, in particular, the comments from the party of the batch loaf. He described Fianna Fáil as a batch loaf, whereas he considers himself the meat in the sandwich. I do not know what sort of meat he would consider himself to be but maybe he should be constantly reminded that his party appeals to 4% of the electorate. He is in partnership with Fianna Fáil and, if we are the batch loaf, he should listen carefully to what we have to say because our experience is drawn from every constituency. Our public representatives are informed by a broad organisation with representation in every parish.

Rapidly growing communities have no Garda presence because their local stations have been closed. In Kilkenny, which has an expanding population, a Garda station is located on one side of the city but there is no outreach centre for the other side. In the context of the location of stations and the support that communities receive, there is a significant deficit, as well as insufficient funding and numbers of gardaí.

I do not care what statistics the Minister may care to quote because I deal with the reality on the ground and that is significantly different. In the Kilkenny parish in which I live, crime and the abuse of drugs and drink are completely out of hand. Businesses in my constituency have been robbed at knife point or by means of the threatened use of firearms. Business families have been terrorised. Elderly women have been threatened and traumatised in their own homes. Turf wars have taken place, not only over the control of low key drugs but over heroin, ecstasy and cocaine. Families have been devastated because of drug use and elderly people have had to leave their homes at weekends because of threats.

No one takes responsibility for addressing these issues. The HSE has placed families in private rented accommodation, including known drug dealers who cause havoc — one family in my constituency is being terrorised by a number of drug dealers who call to a certain house. There are insufficient local gardaí to investigate these matters and local government is not joined-up in terms of co-operation among county councils, the HSE and gardaí in addressing the issue. It is nobody's problem. One is sent to the landlord, the HSE or the Garda station, yet no action is taken. Decent and honest to God people are being terrorised in their homes. That is what we are confronted with. The city has changed considerably over the years, moving from its difficulties with unemployment to difficulties with drugs and those who peddle them. I have seen little or no response to this, bar a devastated community.

Taking into account all the legislation coming from the proposals before us, even more pressure will be heaped on the Garda Síochána. There will be a sex offenders list, a drugs users list, a list of shotguns and licences, and gardaí will have to man their stations. It is time for the reform package promised for the Garda Síochána, not merely the reserve force, to be brought forward.

I wish to see much more money spent on recruiting gardaí, and to see gardaí back on the beat. This is not to criticise currently serving gardaí, rather I make this call by way of support for them. These gardaí are stretched. In Kilkenny, for example, there are sometimes one or two gardaí in the Garda station, and these gardaí must patrol the whole county. I have received complaints from north Kilkenny, towns such as Johnstown, Urlingford and Ballyragget, with regard to anti-social behaviour and the lack of a response or a presence from the Garda. I recently attended a meeting in Inistioge where I heard that a family had to travel to the Garda station in Thomastown to have forms signed. However, the family was sent back because the forms had to be signed in the local station. The local Garda station in Inistioge is operated by a button alerting a garda, and there was no response.

We need more gardaí in Garda stations and administrative staff to support what these gardaí do. The administrative staff do not need to be fully-trained gardaí but they need to have administrative skills. Such personnel would allow gardaí to go back on the beat. We need more gardaí in every station and we must examine the technology in those stations which are closed down, in order to give some comfort to the communities they are supposed to serve. Without trying to raise the expectation in any of those communities, there is a need to look at re-opening, even on a part-time basis, Garda stations where there has been a significant increase of population in an urban location within counties. This would give the type of wide-ranging services now being demanded from the police force.

If we do not proceed with these measures now, we will create a further deficit as we move out into the next five years. Arresting the decline must begin now and the funding must be provided. We can no longer hide behind statistics. I listened to the debate between Deputy Bruton and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, and most of the country would have felt that it was bogus. The reality is significantly different and needs to be dealt with.

I have never seen the level of heroin as is currently available in Kilkenny. I have seen families devastated by the use of the drug, and I have also seen a complete neglect within the Health Service Executive to deal with the issue by providing places for treatment in counties or within regions. As a result, the people who smoke or inject the drug in their homes are being supported by their families. When the occasion arises, these people vanish to locations where they can obtain and use the drug.

I cannot understand why people who have an established network within communities get away with selling the drug and pushing its use. Their names are known to community leaders, and their names are probably known within the Garda Síochána. Whether it is a weakness in the legislation or a lack of numbers within the Garda, I cannot understand why they are not arrested, brought to court and imprisoned. The devastation being caused by them is immeasurable.

I have seen young people begin using that drug and as a result entering a cycle of having to steal to feed the habit. Sometimes such youths may be given a softer drug to peddle in order to get the money to buy heroin or cocaine. That is unacceptable. The longer we keep our heads in the sand and quote statistics, the worse the problem is getting. The fact will remain that the problem was not dealt with in the course of this Government's term.

I read with interest the description a close friend, Councillor Pat Fitzpatrick, made of how he was held at gunpoint in a hotel which was being robbed in Dublin. I have watched him since as he is traumatised by the event. I compare this to an elderly person, whom I met in her home, but who cannot stay in the house as a result of anti-social behaviour. This is the kind of society we currently live in. If we are going to legislate for this society, which is what we are doing with this Bill, we must be prepared to put up the money to provide the force to police that society.

We must end anti-social behaviour and I would like to believe that ASBOs will do the trick. However, given the level of anti-social behaviour, the number of gardaí involved and what we are asking them to do, we are ignoring the real problem. The local authorities in these areas are not creating a platform where all the agencies can engage with one another in trying to solve the problem. Such a platform would involve the Garda, the HSE, local authorities, local communities, etc. It is not happening the way it should. If we want such a process, we must fund the development of numbers within the Garda Síochána.

I would like to see technology applied within the stations, with gardaí being confident of the technology they use. If this requires investment and extra squad cars on the street, it must be done. It is pointless debating this in the House and putting legislation in place if we do not put our money where our mouth is. The Minister, Deputy McDowell, must do this sooner rather than later. I am a great believer in community policing and I have seen it work in Kilkenny. I have also seen community police being put elsewhere at the drop of a hat, simply because people are under pressure.

I wish to mention the issue of missing people. I am extremely disappointed that the Minister has not met with representatives of affected families. He has delegated that responsibility to his officials. With no disrespect intended towards these officials, it is incumbent on the Minister to understand the problems of those who face crime and to understand the problems of those families who have a member missing. It is only through direct engagement with these people that one can understand the real problems.

Every Member of this House must experience at their clinics the type of situations I have described. While I respect what is being done in legislation, I would have more respect for a greater engagement by the Minister in an attempt to understand what is occurring, and not just in Dublin. The debate has recently centred on Dublin, but the problems in Dublin have spilled over to the rest of the country. The markets for drugs, guns and crime have simply widened. When did we think we would see a gun fight on the M50? The Minister must listen to what is said, look at the options for funding and demand that the type of funding required be made available in the short term so that this, at least, can be stopped. Legislation will not do it on its own,nor will debate. I urge the Minister to take action.

Debate adjourned.